Clinton Vs. Obama

[Contra Fates]

After watching the Philadelphia debates on Youtube and having done research on both candidates, I am curious to see where others now stand on the topic.

Who would you vote for to win the Democratic Presidential Nomination, and why? Please only vote in this poll if you are American, in order to not skew the results. Though, anyone is welcome to discuss what they wish to in this thread, no matter what country you're from.

Personally, my vote would go to Hillary Clinton, because she really seems to be the only candidate with substance. She knows how this system works, and she has made so many different plans to be put to use. She seems most prepared for the job, and displayed that in the debate. She answered, quickly and thoroughly, whatever questions she was asked, whereas Obama had a habit of skirting around the question, ironic for someone who kept complaining about how he disliked politics, yet he does a very typical political move such as that. My later posts will be a lot more detailed on what I think about Clinton and Obama, but I'll keep it relatively brief for this introduction post.

So, since it's starting to boil down to the main decision of who kept the Democratic vote, I want to know who you hope is the one duking it out with John McCain in November.

 

[Moogles]

I'd vote for Obama mostly because I feel Clinton wouldn't stand a chance against McCain (likely the Republican candidate) in the presidential election. It isn't so much about who I think would make the better president (I'd give the edge to Clinton) as it is about keeping a republican from winning office.

I doubt we'll see any substantial changes in this country should McCain win presidency. It'll be an older, uglier George W. Bush...

 

[GoldenChocoboMaster]

I would also say Obama.
For different reasons though.
When the race started, I was acctually for Clinton. But she got rather...egotistical and snippy with her tactics. So I did some reserach on Obama, and I agree with almost all his views, and I also agree that American government can be changed by the power of the people. Obama seems more Honest than Clinton, and despite what some people say, I think the fact that he is 'new' in the world of politics is a good thing. He has solid ideas that are not skewed by the cruelty of our current political members. He is very inspirational.

'ironic for someone who kept complaining about how he disliked politics, yet he does a very typical political move such as that.'

-Well, he is a politician. That doesn't mean he has to like the way our current system works.

I also think that were Hilary to go up against Mcain, alot of people would never want a female president. Nothing against females, I just think alot of democrats out there might vote for Obama just because they are scared of a female president. Would those democrats vote for Mcain? Don't know, but it's a possibility. Also alot of controversy is going on about the uproar it might cause amung the large democratic population that is black. That's what is causing so many superdelegates to remain nuetral at the moment.

I agree, Mcain would mean that the way our country is today is going to remain on this course, increasing in rate of decay. That cannot happen.

 

[Erythritol]

I feel like this thread already exists, but whatever.

I'm a total Hillary Clinton supporter. I like her positions, and I think she has more experience than Obama. To be quite honest, Obama really worries me for several reasons. To begin with, he has absolutely no experience. He has never actually done anything for the American public. All he seems capable of doing is making pretty speeches in which he promises the American public wonderful (and unrealistic) social and political conditions. He never really mentions how he plans to achieve his goals or how he plans to fulfill his promises. His lack of experience is clearly evident in debates. He, too, must realize it, as he called for an end to debates and more campaigning. Hrm, I wonder why? Because it's easy for him to speak well and make empty promises. When it comes to actual experience and intelligent debates, he's on shaky grounds. Quite frankly, McCain would absolutely rape him in a debate. McCain is an experienced war veteran with many years in politics, and he has actual and concrete plans. I would love to see a debate between Obama and McCain, if only just to laugh at how Obama would be completely blown away.

Now, onto another issue with Obama. As we all know, international relations is an extremely important topic these days. I tend to be a realist when it comes to international relations. This means that I believe states are relatively unilateral and look out for only themselves. This also means that one of the main reasons that states go to war is because of distrust of other nations. Today's friend could be tomorrow's friend, as it were. Anyway, one of the MAIN factors in this is that nations can be very unpredictable. Obama is definitely the most unpredictable candidate. It is impossible to judge how he will react to certain events. Don't you think this will make other nations very nervous? I think so. It makes me extremely nervous too. I don't want someone unpredictable in office. It generally only creates international tensions.

AND ANOTHER THING. In response to everyone saying that McCain would be like George Bush: please, buy yourself a fucking newspaper and stop being so god damn ignorant. You make my brain hurt, seriously. McCain, from DAY ONE, disagreed with the Bush administration on many issues. McCain and Bush NEVER got along. McCain is a very intelligent and experienced man, and I believe he would probably lead the country in a relatively good direction. Please pull your heads out of your asses, and stop believing that Republican equals bad. A little history lesson: there have been as many good Republican presidents as bad Democratic presidents. Let's talk about Jimmy Carter and how he killed the economy and created a huge mess in Iran. Now let's remember who followed him in office-- Ronald Reagan. He cleaned up Carter's spectacular mess and ended up effectively ending the Cold War. He was a GREAT president. And he was-- *gasp*-- Republican! Oh noes! There are MANY different types of Republicans, and Bush and McCain are the not the same type. McCain is known as a "maverick" because he sometimes goes against his party on issues. He is not cowed into believing whatever his party believes. And I respect that. So just STOP with the "meh meh meh, McCain is just like Bush" nonsense. You lose all political credibility saying such nonsense. Thank you.

 

[Donald Trump]

Ronald Reagan. He cleaned up Carter's spectacular mess and ended up effectively ending the Cold War. He was a GREAT president. And he was-- *gasp*-- Republican! Oh noes! There are MANY different types of Republicans, and Bush and McCain are the not the same type.

I think you give a little too much credit to a guy who called the USSR "the evil empire". It was more Gorbachev imo. Also if I remember correctly, one of the reasons why Bush Snr won the election was because of the mini depression that was around during 1988.
However, it is rather interesting that people view the democrats as so great. Because besides Clinton, only FDR has been a relatively good president.
I agree, McCain is nothing like Bush, compared to Bush or Romney, he is liberal.

Hmmm Obama V Clinton.
Obama is great at giving speeches, he is charismatic and charming. He inspires belief in others and people believe he will bring change.
I'm cynical/realistic about his or anyone's ability to implement 'change'. It doesn't happen over night, electing Obama won't make people's dreams come true.

Clinton I know less about, she has more experience, most of it as first lady of wherever. She seems more down to earth and more realistic.

I also think that were Hilary to go up against Mcain, alot of people would never want a female president. Nothing against females, I just think alot of democrats out there might vote for Obama just because they are scared of a female president

It may have escaped your notice, but Obama is black. So that point fails.

 

[Erythritol]

I think you give a little too much credit to a guy who called the USSR "the evil empire". It was more Gorbachev imo. Also if I remember correctly, one of the reasons why Bush Snr won the election was because of the mini depression that was around during 1988.
However, it is rather interesting that people view the democrats as so great. Because besides Clinton, only FDR has been a relatively good president.

Reagan was instrumental in bringing down the USSR. I remembering having to write a paper about his role in the downfall of the USSR. I'm trying to remember the specifics....basically he did a lot of political acting and helped to drive the USSR into bankruptcy due to an arms race. He also made several speeches that encouraged satellite states to revolt against the USSR. He definitely didn't do it singlehandedly, but he was a major player in the destruction of the USSR. And I would definitely say that the USSR was an "evil empire." I'm not saying that because I've been filled with American indoctrination or anything. I went to Berlin and Poland and saw exactly what the USSR did to their satellite states. It was sickening. It was human right's violations, to be honest. I could write a long angry rant about it, but this isn't exactly the place or time >_> As for the economy: it was definitely more successful during Reagan's time in office than during Carter's.

Errrrmmmm, so keeping on topic....Go Hillary!

 

[Contra Fates]

'ironic for someone who kept complaining about how he disliked politics, yet he does a very typical political move such as that.'

-Well, he is a politician. That doesn't mean he has to like the way our current system works.

I disagree with this. If he's a politician who dislikes the current system, then he should UPHOLD THOSE BELIEFS. He complains about political tactics, and then he turns around and does the same exact thing that he was complaining about. I would have no problem with him if he voiced his disdain for the political slander-warfare, if he didn't do the same exact thing.

As for the point made about Clinton being a woman and our country not being ready for it, all I have to say...is that when I look at Clinton, I see someone who is fierce, while every time I look at Obama, he's spouting speeches about hope, but once he's put in the hot seat or in a debate, he clams up and then whines about how unfairly he's being treated in this 'cut-throat political process.' This is why I HATE the fact that he's new, because every time he is forced to be confronted by something he dislikes, he hides behind the excuse that it's 'evil politics.' I very, very rarely hear Hillary complain how politics are.

During the Philadelphia debate, Obama answered most of his questions by dancing around the questions, and most of the time...whined about how much he disliked that political tactic. Hillary, on the other hand, answered all of her questions clearly and thoroughly, and with very little hesitance, or mixing of words.

Things that Obama said that troubled me the most:
-Obama was asked about the controversial comments that his Reverend said, and Obama responded by saying that he "wasn't at Church that day," and that he "did not know what was said." And then also said that he had "Disowned" his Reverend.

So, according to Obama, as long as he 'isn't there' and 'doesn't know' what's going on in his Presidency, then he can not be held accountable. That is a HORRIBLE excuse for him to have made.

-When asked about his energy plan for the future, he responds by saying that he will make sure that cars are made with a higher fuel efficiency. Obviously that comment was made from someone with little mechanical knowledge, because in order to achieve higher gas mileage, other components and quality of the car have to suffer as a result. And, that's not my main issue with his statement, it's the fact that he's basically saying: "PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO BUY THESE NEW CARS WITH BETTER GAS MILEAGE." And, on top of that, he mentioned his "$150 billion plan to help the energy crisis," yet he doesn't explain at all where that money is coming from, or what it is going to. At all.

Clinton's response to the same question, was very detailed, and she reminded the public that all of her policies and future plans are laid out and detailed on her website. She plans to investigate the oil companies themselves for price gouging, something that our current Administration has not dared to do...for obvious profit loss of the wealthy oil-stock-holders. She also proposed a plan to research more energy-producing technologies, and creating millions of jobs in the process. More jobs is certainly something this country needs, on top of lower gas prices.

The video that really bothers me the most about Obama:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU9iCANi02o
I am usually not one to be taken back by videos...but, COME ON. For someone who is always babbling about how much he loves America and how much great change he promises to bring....YET HE WON'T EVEN SALUTE THE FLAG?! Some arguments were made that 'standing at attention' is a way to salute the flag. To that..I tell you to pay attention to his stature. He has a slacked posture, and is SWAYING. Everyone else around him is standing tall, still, and saluting the flag. It just gave me such a horrible taste in my mouth when I watched that video.

The main reasons I believe in Clinton:
-Hillary has been on the political track for years and years, and has seen the way the Presidency works through the 8-year term that her husband had run. I'm not saying it's as though she was Bill, but it has surely given her a huge advantage. She knows how this system works, and she knows how to bend it to her will, in order to get work done.

Obama, on the other hand, is 'NEW,' which is NOT a good thing. Why? Because this will likely turn him into another George Bush, a President who is seemingly easily manipulated by all of those around him. And if that isn't the case, then Obama will find it incredibly difficult to get any policies passed and any accomplishments made, because he doesn't know the proper way to go about it.

-Hillary's plan for Iraq and for the Middle East in general is a rather solid plan in my beliefs. She wants to begin bringing back troops after 60 days of her being in Presidency, a brigade at a time. When the prompter said: "But the military feels that the leeway they've made in Iraq would be destroyed," Hillary did not back down. She continued to say that she has watched what has happened in Iraq, and that she believes that the Iraqi people have to be given the opportunity to fend for themselves. America can't spoon-feed a country that doesn't want our help. She believes [And I agree], that American involvement needs to become minimal, so that the Iraqi people can begin to stand on their own two feet and create their own government.

She also mentioned an idea that I really liked. She wishes to become much more diplomatic with the Middle East, and when she was asked if she would declare war on a country that tried to destroy Israel, she said she would protect them, but that she wishes to protect more than them. Her idea was to create a 'security umbrella' of allying countries, where they only had to promise not to use nuclear weapons, and if troubled, the United States would assist them in fighting the other country. That's a war with BENEFIT. We'd be fighting for people who WANT and NEED our help, not people who despise us and try to kill our soldiers constantly.

-People complain that Hillary is dishonest and egocentric, and that her tactics are underhanded. She was even accused of having one of her enemies imprisoned and tortured. There isn't much evidence to back that, but even if that were true: then good for her! She's already demonstrated that she can take down the enemy no matter what the cost. That accusation in itself practically destroys all of the claims that a female politician would be too 'weak' to forcefully handle the enemy.

During the last debate, Clinton was questioned about her exaggeration of her being under 'sniper fire.' Unlike Obama, who, when questioned about his mistakes found a way to say 'it wasn't my fault,' Clinton practically said: "I did it, and I'm sorry." She accepted responsibility for her mistake, and apologized for it. That shows one difference between her and her husband, since Bill liked to keep to "I did not inhale' tactics.

Many people think that Hillary is a bitch, to which I also say: "GOOD!" I don't care if our President isn't a kind person, because a 'bitch' knows how to make things work the way she wants them to. She has been consistent with her beliefs, and I truly believe that she will go to great lengths to make sure that those policies she wishes to make for the benefit of America will be done. She has never demonstrated that her beliefs are in the wrong place, and she's kept with that for years. So what if she isn't a sweetheart? If her intentions are good, then I don't care what 'mean tactics' she takes to get the job done. She acts, whereas I've only seen Obama talk about all the great things he would do, with no explanation of how. Clinton repeatedly said: "This is what I will do, and this is how, and this is where you can read about it."

Clinton, also, on several occasions, has said, even in the debate: "I will do whatever is necessary to get a Democrat in office." She said that when she was asked if she would take Obama at her vice president if she won, or if she'd become his vice president if he won. She has said before that she would team up with him if that's what it took for the Democrats to win the Presidency. That doesn't show a very egocentric and bitchy person to me, but someone who is confident and determined. When asked the same Obama, said that it's 'too early to decide something like that yet.' His ego is much larger than Hillary's, is what that says.

She's consistent, she's substantial, and she's strong-willed. Obama is all flash, and to me...Obama is like fast food, tastes great going down, but afterward...I'm malnourished and full of regret.

Ending note: I created this thread for ONLY democratic discussion. I'm aware about the 2008 Elections thread, but I ONLY wish to discuss the two democrats here, not the Republicans. I can understand that sometimes McCain may need to be mentioned, since he's the Republican candidate, but this thread is mainly intended to be just about Clinton and Obama, and that's it.

 

[Fair_Game]

My votes clinton as Im sure thats fairly obvious. (Contras views in politics reflect my personal beliefs).

I just have one thing to add: I tried to like Obama. But what Ive read and seen dont show me that hes 'said' anything. I want the Obamanites to give me a better reason for choosing Obama. Ive heard lesser of the two evils, and thought 'yes, good word choice'. Ive heard that you like his views...but his views are just democratic: Get the troops out of Iraq, lower middle class taxes, pro equality etc. But what does he plan to do about any of it?

Lower taxes for the middle class while spending 150 billion dollars on a 'quest for alternative fuel'. Somethings not adding up for me. And I'll admit, I'm bad at math
but not THAT bad!

Please Obamanites, what is it you like about this guy?

Clintons got her game together and its damn good.

 

[Contra Fates]

I have no clue why people go batshit crazy over Obama, either.

Well, today is the day in Pennsylvania. I'm rooting for Hillary to kick his ass, because it's the last chance she'll get. D=

 

[Koloth]

OK guys, I cast my vote about an hour and a half ago. Yes, I live in Pennsylvania. To be honest, it was a tough choice. Earlier, I was for Obama. But I discussed a few things with my wife and she seemed to like Clinton. The reason being that Obama just does not seem to be one for sticking with the issues at hand. I think Clinton would handle the important issues and cleanup the mess made by the Bush administration. Well, start to clean it up anyway. The biggest disgrace is healthcare in the US. It has messed up jobs because it costs an employer way to much in health coverage. So employers go to the contractors. Which kills unions and good paying jobs in the US. People should not be forced to use private healthcare period.

Hopefully the mess with Social Security will be reversed also.

Lets just hope the Republicans don't gain any ground in 2008.

 

[Donald Trump]

Well, today is the day in Pennsylvania. I'm rooting for Hillary to kick his ass, because it's the last chance she'll get. D=

You want Clinton kick his ass?
I've always thought of presidents as being representatives of their parties, not themselves. You are gloryfying Clinton, when in reality one democratic president is not going to be hugely different from another.
Presidents need the support of congress, therefore no president has independent power(checks and balances).
So, people vote for parties, not individuals.
People saying if Obama wins the democratic nomination I'll vote for McCain is just being anti-Obama-ish.
Obama isn't a fool, he won't be manipulated. He may lack political experience, but that is what gives him his popularity. He isn't a cynic like so many other politicians, he believes in change, and people can tell he clearly believes in it. People are voting with their hearts and not their brains, that may be irrational. However he is the only candidate that could bring change. I say could, I don't believe he will, but Obama represents hope. And people like to have hope. I think Kerry said something about the only positive of Bush's administration is that at least someone great like Obama will be president after. Now that is total bullshit, I doubt if Bush wasn't viewed as negatively as he was, Obama would be a lot less popular.

However, the whole thing is counter productive. Neither Clinton or Obama are making themselves look better, they are just making each other look worse.

 

[Moogles]

Wow. Talk about some harsh posts earlier. Oh, well.

Well, I voted about half an hour ago. Admittedly, I hadn't done much research on either candidate. I'm not well-versed on politics. I looked into it a bit--and read some of the posts in this thread for additional insight--and decided that I'd vote for Hillary. She seems more professional and experienced. Besides, I'm tired of watching Obama's damn campaign advertisements on television. I'd refrain from voting for him outta spite...

 

[Contra Fates]

That's awesome to hear from Koloth and Mister Poop that you have voted. Hopefully my post helped to give you some insight on the two candidates, Mister.

And, Iago, I understand Obama's draw because he's charismatic and unlike most politicians, but I also agree with what you said...about people voting irrationally. It's true that I support Hillary, but I started out SUPPORTING OBAMA.

I fell for the whole charming image and his words of change and hope, but then when a friend asked me why I supported him, I couldn't give her an answer. My economics teacher forced us, as a research assignment, to research each main candidate, and after doing that...I really discovered that Clinton had much more to offer than Obama did. I made it quite clear in my super-long post on the previous page...why I feel that Obama isn't at all worthy or prepared for the Presidency.

And, also, I'm aware that we're more-so voting for a party, but that isn't always the case. If the President him/herself didn't have any impact on how the country is run, than we wouldn't have any right to call any of them a 'good' President or a 'bad' President, since they're all fault should lie with the party. That last comment could be true to an extent, but it is the President who is looked to for guidance, and to propose some of the ideas that will hopefully be passed.

I believe Obama will be faced with harsh reality if he is put into office, and realizes that the political system isn't the way he wants it to be. In fact, he complains about that now. Clinton, on the other hand, knows how the system is, thoroughly, and I believe she will find less resistance from congress and the senate, as a result of that.

Now, if it's really true that she will have issues because she is a woman, than this country really has a lot of growing up to do.

 

[Scarlet]

I really don't understand what people see in Obama to be honest... :/ I could see Obama being the next Jimmy Carter. Right now we need a president who can handle a declining economy and someone who can resolve the war in Iraq. I don't think Obama is a good choice right now. It seems to me that young people are voting for him because he's a cool idealistic guy, and women are just voting for him because he's cute.

I haven't seen the Pennsylvania debate yet. Although Hilary messed up a bit on her campaign, she is still standing up strong and isn't willing to give up. That does show a lot about her as a person. After all, we need a tough president that isn't going to fall back. *cough*Jimmy Carter*cough*

As for parents and I, we voted for Hilary. If she doesn't win the primaries, my parents and I will be voting for McCain.

 

[Moogles]

I believe Hillary won Pennsylvania today. She had a 53% to 47% edge with about 90% of the votes tallied.

Hopefully my post helped to give you some insight on the two candidates, Mister.

Yes, ma'am, thank you. I looked over your post closely. Lots of strong points. I didn't base my decision solely on this thread, but I found myself unable to disagree with most of what I read (from all of the posts, really).

 

[Contra Fates]

I believe Hillary won Pennsylvania today. She had a 53% to 47% edge with about 90% of the votes tallied.

Yes, ma'am, thank you. I looked over your post closely. Lots of strong points. I didn't base my decision solely on this thread, but I found myself unable to disagree with most of what I read (from all of the posts, really).

I'm really glad it helped you in your decision.

As for the results, the most recent I've been seeing [and I've been keeping a lot of track on it], it's a 54% win with 66% of the precincts reporting. Hopefully the rest of the precincts show more of a win for Hillary, since she really needs all the delegates she can get.

 

[Donald Trump]

I've been reading about clinton. She offers improved and cheaper healthcare with more choices. Tax cuts for the middle classes and other things.
Yet she doesn't mention where all this money is coming from. She says some things will face cuts, she doesn't say which things will be having their budgets cut.

Clinton wants to bring back the troops and then to hand Iraq over to the UN and neighbouring countires. Considering the UN is pathetic, which country is Iraq's largest neighbour? Iran.
Is it likely that this will happen? I doubt it, so therefore most likely Saudi will be in charge of stabilsing Iraq. And who will be controlling Saudi, America no doubt, it's just the Dawes plan but with Iraq instead of money.
That's just speculation though.

I am usually not one to be taken back by videos...but, COME ON. For someone who is always babbling about how much he loves America and how much great change he promises to bring....YET HE WON'T EVEN SALUTE THE FLAG?!

ZOMG GUISE HE AINT WEARN D AMERIKAN FLAG LAPPEL PIN. HE R TERRORIST.

Can someone tell me what Hillary plans to do about the economy?

 

[Contra Fates]

ZOMG GUISE HE AINT WEARN D AMERIKAN FLAG LAPPEL PIN. HE R TERRORIST.

Can someone tell me what Hillary plans to do about the economy?

I could care less whether or not Obama wears the pin. It's the fact that during a performance of The Star-Spangled Banner, when EVERYONE ELSE is properly and proudly saluting the flag...and Obama is -NOT-...AT ALL, THAT is something that sends a horrible message for me. Did you watch that video link? Or are you only commenting on the stupid debate question about Obama not wearing a flag pin?

As for Clinton's economic plan, she has a pretty detailed $70 billion plan to boost the economy, which involves ridding of tax-cuts for the wealthy, and putting in a lot of money for freezing foreclosures, freezing ballooning mortgage rates, creating a lot of new jobs in the energy industry [in order to discover more efficient ways of using energy], and she also wishes to put more money into unemployment insurance, to help those struggling to find work. There's a lot more to it, but that's what I can remember from memory. Her website details everything else.