The Nature of Prayer

[Sir Fratley]

It is a wondering I have, when I look back on my times as a christian and my current life as a pagan. The majority of faith followers always pray, and the majority of it is 'grant me this', 'bless that',and 'please do this for me and in exchange I'll do that'.

Have any of us ever really taken the time to pray to the Divine, not to ask for anything, but to thank the Divine? No matter how one look upon religion and who believes what, even for those who do not believe in any divine entity there is one common thing we all have, one fact we all know is true:

We're alive.​

Our time on this world is brief, even if we have a longer lifespan in comparison to the majority of animals. We have the gifts of medicine and science, we can create things of our own.

For those of us who believe in a higher power, have we ever thought about how the Divine feels about our actions? About how we lash out at one another over different beliefs, or how we mostly ask for stuff to happen to favor us and rarely ever take time just just thank the Divine for all of the things S/He has done for us already without our having asked?

Just something to contemplate on.

 

[Ohri-Jin]

I have thanked the Lord for the blessings he have given, but not often enough.
I have asked the Lord to take care of people that I know who were ill or hurt.

I try to avoid asking for help for personal gain, but sometimes that is hard to do.
I often even forget the Lord.

Yet I know there is a higher being. He gave some people wonderful gifts that I encountered myself.

My friend´s mother once did a type of reading for me. She is muslim. Three things came out of it and two of them were spot on. Those two things actually happened and it freaked me out.

That is God.

I dont go to church or read any of the written books made by human hands, but I know a higher being is out there. Allah and God are just two different words, but are the same God.

 

[Terra Branford]

I always say "Thank you Lord" when something good happens, though I don't scream it at the top of my lungs, I do do it. When I get scared and find it to be nothing, I say "Thank you Lord" and I even say it at prayer.

Whenever I think about thanking the Lord, I think about Hebrews 13:5,6:

Be content with what you have, for God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." So say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid."

I know he's constantly helping, giving and loving, so I try to say "Thank you Lord" as much as I can! When I'm not asleep of course xD

The way I see it, if people get thanked for the good they do. God should be thanked as well.(if not more)

Agreed! :33

EDIT:
I hope no one comes in here to bash religion. :/

 

[der Astronom]

It is a wondering I have, when I look back on my times as a christian and my current life as a pagan. The majority of faith followers always pray, and the majority of it is 'grant me this', 'bless that',and 'please do this for me and in exchange I'll do that'.

And you know what that is? Selfishness. That's what religion encourages, and that's one of the reasons people are drawn to it. It promises something that makes you feel special; you're basically asking god to drop everything he's doing and give you this one thing.

Have any of us ever really taken the time to pray to the Divine, not to ask for anything, but to thank the Divine? No matter how one look upon religion and who believes what, even for those who do not believe in any divine entity there is one common thing we all have, one fact we all know is true:

Actually, I look at it this way: praying for something and hoping you'll get it is out of selfishness. Praying to someone whom you don't even know exists might be a waste of time. If there's one thing prayer does is to calm you down. I don't believe it has anything to do with pleasing some deity, or being grateful for them; that's just what people believe.

We're alive.​

So what? That we're alive is better explained by evolution; not because some deity allowed it or made it possible. But if that's what you want to believe, fine. I just happen to think it hasn't provided me with any information or argument that's new or particularly interesting.

Our time on this world is brief, even if we have a longer lifespan in comparison to the majority of animals. We have the gifts of medicine and science, we can create things of our own.

For those of us who believe in a higher power, have we ever thought about how the Divine feels about our actions? About how we lash out at one another over different beliefs, or how we mostly ask for stuff to happen to favor us and rarely ever take time just just thank the Divine for all of the things S/He has done for us already without our having asked?

I don't believe criticism of religions has anything much to do with ignoring what someone's god wants.

Religious people who criticize other beliefs are just throwing rocks from a glass house. If you have the time to criticize the validity of other people's faiths, you can do the same for yours. Because all religions share one thing in common at least: they're all based on faith.

Here's the interesting thing: atheists are the same as monotheists except that we just happen to believe in one less god. I wonder why that is?

 

[Sum1sgruj]

The correct way to pray to God, as inspired by President Kennedy:

Do not pray for an easier life. Pray to be a stronger man.
Such is what God prays to Himself in light of mankind.

Praying for an easier life is asking for all of time to shift to your liking.

 

[unadulteratedawesome]

Though prayer is a highly personal thing, and people are free to do whatever they wish with their free time, I do have one thing to so.

Every ounce of energy devoted to prayer would be better spent focused inward on self-reflection and appraisal or outward to friends, family, even strangers. I cannot attest to whether a god or gods exist, but I do know that kind words and time spent on other people have a measurable impact, however minor.

 

[der Astronom]

The correct way to pray to God, as inspired by President Kennedy:

Do not pray for an easier life. Pray to be a stronger man.
Such is what God prays to Himself in light of mankind.

Praying for an easier life is asking for all of time to shift to your liking.

Wouldn't you still be praying out of selfishness (and perhaps vanity, I might add)?

 

[der Astronom]

^Not necessarily. Praying to be a better person doesn't involve changing everything around you(as would praying for an easier life would involve)

No, but you are praying for your own personal well being, which is selfishness because you don't care if other people get stronger or not.

Why should you pray for your own well being rather than someone else's? Precisely because you care more about yourself than you do other people. There's nothing particularly wrong with admitting that we care more about ourselves than we do other people, and sometimes, you don't have a choice if it might harm other people to care more about yourself. It's selfish, sure, but then again we're all selfish. Religion just happens to be one way in which this selfishness is expressed.

EDIT: You know what, I was thinking. The OP of this topic started this thread to ask the religious people if they ever pray to thank God for all the blessings he's bestowed on to us. This is in no way supposed to be a debate thread about how selfish religious people are for praying. (or maybe I missed the memo)

Why is it, we can't have one religious thread without some sort of anti-religious people coming in and stirring stuff up?

Because the premises of religion (faith) are logically flawed, and it doesn't offer much particularly good at this day and age.

No, you seriously missed the point of what the purpose of religion is.

Let's see here: Christianity offers a way to make up for your sins by shifting your responsibility onto someone else so you don't have to do anything about it; that's scapegoating Jesus, and it exists for selfish reasons because you don't care if other people do or not (apparently, there's a line in the bible about leaving behind your family for Jesus because he'll basically save you if you do). I've often heard of religion that it exists for morality, but it hasn't done much good for us; if it did anything, there's years and years of history in the Dark Ages and past civilizations that don't seem to indicate that religion meets up to this potential, if it encourages morality. That we have better morality now is a result of other things; it happens in spite of religion, and not because of it. If it ever had such a purpose as morality, it's simply just failed at it.

And if all religion is built off of faith, you might as well stop right there; anything based off of faith has no sound basis for claiming truth or leading anyone's lives.

 

[Jquestionmark]

It is a wondering I have, when I look back on my times as a christian and my current life as a pagan. The majority of faith followers always pray, and the majority of it is 'grant me this', 'bless that',and 'please do this for me and in exchange I'll do that'.

Have any of us ever really taken the time to pray to the Divine, not to ask for anything, but to thank the Divine? No matter how one look upon religion and who believes what, even for those who do not believe in any divine entity there is one common thing we all have, one fact we all know is true:

I've never been in the habit of thanking people that haven't done anything for me. It seems a little silly to offer thanks to things that don't seem to be interacting with the reality I live in, let alone myself.

We're alive.

Very true. But have you considered that maybe the god(s) came into existence after we did? Or that it/they didn't create us but wandered along later?

Our time on this world is brief, even if we have a longer lifespan in comparison to the majority of animals. We have the gifts of medicine and science, we can create things of our own.

Can I get a hells yeah for medicine and science? If we can do that on our own, why would we even need anything from the god(s)?

For those of us who believe in a higher power, have we ever thought about how the Divine feels about our actions?

Based on a huge number of myths, I'd say they're either pleased that we're emulating their example, or at the very least amused.

About how we lash out at one another over different beliefs, or how we mostly ask for stuff to happen to favor us and rarely ever take time just just thank the Divine for all of the things S/He has done for us already without our having asked?

Personally, I doubt the god(s) would be in a habit of doing anything for us that we're not willing to just do for ourselves. Why should it/they? They can just sit back and watch without expending any effort. If I was a god, I'd do nothing to intervene on behalf of humanity - they can get along fine on their own and seem to be doing a lot of interesting things.

If a god is doing things without our request, I still don't see any need to thank them. Do you expect or desire a thank you when you perform a good deed? I certainly don't - that's not the point of a good deed.

Just something to contemplate on.

I've thought about this one a decent bit. It's why I'd rather act god-like (not the christian god, he just comes off as an ass - maybe Tyr or Cú Chulainn) than god-fearing.

I have thanked the Lord for the blessings he have given, but not often enough.
I have asked the Lord to take care of people that I know who were ill or hurt.

Why not ask/thank the doctors involved? Or offer prayer to the scientists of old that created the medicinal techniques that helped them? Why not a little ancestor-style worship for the people involved instead of thanking a deity that didn't necessarily do anything?

I try to avoid asking for help for personal gain, but sometimes that is hard to do.
I often even forget the Lord.

I wish it were possible to forget such a thing.

Yet I know there is a higher being. He gave some people wonderful gifts that I encountered myself.

Interesting. Can't say I personally have encountered anything that only god could have done. And why just "God"? Why not any of the other gods that have done things for people?

My friend´s mother once did a type of reading for me. She is muslim. Three things came out of it and two of them were spot on. Those two things actually happened and it freaked me out.

That is God.

You should look into the works of Penn and Teller, and the personality analysis by Forer. They say a lot about how you can predict things by being adequately general.

I dont go to church or read any of the written books made by human hands, but I know a higher being is out there. Allah and God are just two different words, but are the same God.

Out of curiosity, why do you think they're the same?

I, believe it or not, do this all the time. Anytime something good happens I always thank the Lord for it. I pray every night before bed and I always start it off with "Lord, thank you for all the blessings you've given me and my family. Thank you for our good health. Thank you for this house we live in and the food we receive through your blessings."

Aren't you the ones working to put food on your table and pay your bills? And aren't yourselves (maybe with a little help from doctors) the ones responsible for being in good health? I'm assuming god's not sending you checks in the mail, so why thank him? Why not thank yourselves for a job well done?

I once heard from my mother that God hears you clearest when you start of thanking God for all the good he's already provided us. Note, I'm probably saying it wrong. But it goes something like that.

But if God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then what good does thanking him do? He already knows if you appreciate it or not, and taking the time to thank him... it just wastes time...

The way I see it, if people get thanked for the good they do. God should be thanked as well.(if not more)

Personally, if we're going to think anyone is helping us out, I feel like it would make the most sense to personify random occurrence as Lady Luck and send some thanks her way. Seems to me like she's doing a lot more I can see than any other gods.

I always say "Thank you Lord" when something good happens, though I don't scream it at the top of my lungs, I do do it. When I get scared and find it to be nothing, I say "Thank you Lord" and I even say it at prayer.

Seems a little strange. How is a god involved in you mistakenly thinking something was there? I do that a lot (I'm pretty jumpy on occasion), but it doesn't seem like a god is involved.

Whenever I think about thanking the Lord, I think about Hebrews 13:5,6:

Be content with what you have, for God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." So say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid."

God said a lot of things in the bible, though. Remember when he lied to a prophet, then killed him for believing the lies? I'd be very afraid of the biblical god's constant attention.

I know he's constantly helping, giving and loving, so I try to say "Thank you Lord" as much as I can! When I'm not asleep of course xD

Agreed! :33

EDIT:
I hope no one comes in here to bash religion. :/

Personally, I think religion as an institution deserves a sound thrashing, but I'd never bash anyone's religious beliefs. Ask questions about them, maybe, try to get them to think about it, perhaps, but never bash.

^Not necessarily. Praying to be a better person doesn't involve changing everything around you(as would praying for an easier life would involve)

However, praying to become someone better just involves you, not anyone else or the rest of the world. Praying for an easier life is basically the idea that the world revolves around you. Which makes it kinda selfish. But praying to God to become a better man/woman is very selfless. Your asking God to change you, not anyone else.

I don't get how asking for personal favours is selfless... Could you explain?

EDIT: You know what, I was thinking. The OP of this topic started this thread to ask the religious people if they ever pray to thank God for all the blessings he's bestowed on to us. This is in no way supposed to be a debate thread about how selfish religious people are for praying. (or maybe I missed the memo)

Well, it is in the debate section, and he did end his post with:

Just something to contemplate on.

Is it not okay to contemplate through evolving discussion?

Why is it, we can't have one religious thread without some sort of anti-religious people coming in and stirring stuff up?

Because people like to talk about and discuss this sort of thing. Also, never said I was anti-religious (other than the institutions), so I feel like I'm cool to stir stuff up.

No, you seriously missed the point of what the purpose of religion is.

I dunno, his points seemed pretty good to me. Why is that not the purpose of religion?

 

[Harlequin]

And you know what that is? Selfishness. That's what religion encourages, and that's one of the reasons people are drawn to it. It promises something that makes you feel special; you're basically asking god to drop everything he's doing and give you this one thing.

Seriously?

First off, how do you figure a being of unlimited power would have to 'drop everything he's doing' to fulfill someone's request? Secondly, if you don't think everyone in this world - religious or otherwise, isn't fundamentally selfish you're in for a nasty shock in life. Repeatedly.

Religious people who criticize other beliefs are just throwing rocks from a glass house.

Oh and what is it you're doing if not the same? What do you know of the beyond? Please, educate us lesser folk.

Here's the interesting thing: atheists are the same as monotheists except that we just happen to believe in one less god. I wonder why that is?

It's not as simple as that. Atheism is the belief that there are none. Not that there may or may not be, that's Agnosticism.

Seriously, if you want to pretend you have the higher ground whatever, you're not impressing anyone and in the end you're not even getting anything for it :dave:

Wouldn't you still be praying out of selfishness (and perhaps vanity, I might add)?

Here's something to ponder: What don't we do out of selfishness? Charity is self motivated, taking care of people is self motivated. Anything we do consciously is motivated by ourselves.

Because the premises of religion (faith) are logically flawed, and it doesn't offer much particularly good at this day and age.

I'll tell you what's logically flawed, your opinion of yourself as a reference to certainty. Everything begins at an assumption - absolutely everything, so we can't truly know anything. That makes your 'knowledge' absolutely flawed.

Let's see here: Christianity offers a way to make up for your sins by shifting your responsibility onto someone else so you don't have to do anything about it;

Loooool. If that was the case we're all blameless and everyone goes to heaven. But hold on, isn't God punative in your opinion? My my, what a contradiction you've made.

I've often heard of religion that it exists for morality, but it hasn't done much good for us; if it did anything, there's years and years of history in the Dark Ages and past civilizations that don't seem to indicate that religion meets up to this potential, if it encourages morality.

As if that's all religion exists for. As if it's got nothing to do with the transcendence of death. Who thought up that bizarre idea?

As for Atheism..

That we have better morality now is a result of other things;

Better morality? I'd love to know how you came to that conclusion.

 

[Jquestionmark]

What? No. Praying to become someone better allows you to be able to help others. Which is exactly what God wants from us--to help others. Becoming someone better isn't selfish in the way you're thinking it is. Praying to become better shows humility, it shows that you know you're not perfect and you want to try and be better, not for yourself but for other people. If anyone really prays to be a better person just because they want to be perfect they're not praying right. The point of praying to be better isn't so you know you're a better person than most(that'd make the prayer almost useless) the point of praying to become a better person is so you can be better so you may help others, whether that be giving money donations, lending a helping hand to someone in need, or anything else.

You don't pray to become a better person just so you can have the title of "I'm a better person". That is selfish. You pray to become a better person so you are empowered to help those around you, like Jesus did. And no, you pray to be empowered to help others because that's what God asks of us, not because it makes us look like saints while the rest of the world are ebil sinners.

Praying for empowerment is still selfish, regardless of what you use it for. You're asking for more power, and even if you use that power selflessly, asking for it in the first place is selfish.

Also, why not just ask god to fix their problems in the first place, instead of requesting more power for yourself? Humility doesn't make you immune to selfishness.

You do know that with Christianity you are asked to pray for others besides yourself, right? I'm not speaking for other religions, but Christianity does ask it's followers to not only pray for strength, good health, but for the strength and good health to be give to others. They're called prayer groups.

My Grandmother prayers for others. I pray for others. We do both.

That's nice, but why not spend that energy going out and helping them instead of asking someone else to do it?

No, who are you to tell me or any other Christian/religious person that we're selfish because we can admit we're not perfect and we pray for our heavenly Father to help us in need? That's like saying a person is selfish for going to their dad or mother when in need of shelter if they have no other way to survive. It's illogical.

I don't see any lack of logic in his point. Asking for someone else to expend resources for your gain is still selfish, regardless of what's on the line.

It's incredibly sad that you have this image of religious people who pray being selfish in your mind. You can't generalize why we pray and deem it selfish just because you would do it out of selfishness if you prayed. We're not you, and you're not us.

Your motives for an act and the actual state of the act aren't necessarily connected. Killing someone for a good reason doesn't make killing good, for example. Praying for power to help others doesn't make asking for power not selfish.

I can guarantee you right now, when I pray for the safety of my family it isn't because I want to not lose them(though a major part in it), it's because I want them to have full, healthy lives. Is that selfish? No. It's not in my book, at least.

Actually, I've got nothing to argue about this one, it is a nice thing for you to do. I think it would be nicer if you helped them directly, but no, hoping they have full, healthy lives is not selfish.

Your logic is like saying a parent choosing to be killed rather than their child is doing it out of selfishness of their own pain or suffering. No. A parent would die for their child because they love their child and want them to live, not for them, but for themselves.

They might be, though. You can't speak for every occurrence of this. If der Astronom isn't allowed to assume things for all Christians, then you aren't allowed to assume things for all parents.

On top of that, if we go by your logic, you're basically saying as Jesus died on the cross and asked God to forgive his killers that he was doing it out of selfishness for his own good. That's just not true.

How exactly does his logic lead to that? I'm not quite sure I'm seeing it.

Again, says you. Religion allows others to live by a set of morals. It gives a sense of peace of knowing that someone loves you and wants the best for you, which some people can't even find amongst humans. And at the end of your life you have ultimate peace. Those might be useless to you. But some of us love knowing there's someone always there for you. Because people aren't. People are flawed.

But this doesn't make that knowledge a truth. Is the comfort just as good if it is false comfort? What if you die and all of those hours of prayer were wasted because there is no hereafter?

Being a part of a religion helps urge a person(if they truly believe) to do good in the world.

I disagree. It urges them to do what they think their interpretation of the religion thinks is good. Good isn't an objective value, and I'm sure I could think of at least one example where a religion urged someone to do something that most people would consider bad.

I'm not saying there aren't atheists with morals, but religion sure as heck inspires good.

It can, I guess, but it's sometimes the opposite case.

My God... you really have a terrible interpretation of what Christianity is. Jesus isn't our scapegoat. We don't shift our responsibility to someone else, either. Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law, he fulfilled it.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. - Colossians 2:13-14

What that means is the Law still stands, but by dying in our place, Jesus took away the penalty due us for breaking the Law, giving us immunity from prosecution. So Jesus didn’t abolish the Law. In effect Paul was saying He abolished the consequences for breaking the Law. But Paul also argued passionately that we should adopt behavioral standards that in fact are consistent with God’s Law. Not because we’re accountable for doing so, but because it’s the best way to express our gratitude for the fact that we aren’t.

Saying Jesus took away our accountability is scapegoating. He's the one paying the price, giving us immunity for our misdeeds. Jesus was "a person or group made to bear the blame for others or to suffer in their place." That is the definition of a scapegoat.

Those people that darkened Christianity in those eras weren't Christians because they truly believed in Jesus Christ as their savior and wanted to live by the law. They used religion as a power to control the true believers beneath them. You can't use a power-hungry government of kings and queens to try and prove Christianity doesn't inspire morals. Those people that claimed they were Christian weren't true Christians at heart, otherwise they wouldn't have done any of what they did.

What makes them less Christian than anyone else who claims to be so (yourself included)? That's quite the judgment to pass, and you'd have to show that their interpretation of Christianity is less valid than yours to do so.

They were using Christianity/other religions as a facade to hide behind so they could gain land and power. Simple as that. Think of the past civilizations and how they used Christianity as someone doing the two hand mind trick. They're holding out two hands, telling you to find the quarter, they're doing something suspicious with their right hand, gaining your attention to that one instead of their left so they can continue to do what they're doing. That's how most kings and queens of the past used religion. They didn't become Christian because they truly believed in it but rather did it because they knew it could control people. Which, darkened religion in some atheists eyes.

Do you have evidence that this was their motivation? That they weren't true believers? What prevents them from being Christian and still being tyrants?

But, how about you judge Christianity/ other religions on what they should be judged by... their Holy books. You'll see that what those empowered "Christians/ other religious people" did were doing things completely against their religion.

Judging Christianity by the Bible is quite a dangerous thing to request. There's some pretty awful stuff in there.

Christianity/religion can only inspire good in you if you're ready for it. It's up to you to allow the religions to inspire good, all you have to do is read it and pay attention and try and live by it as close as you can.

Or you could just be good of your own volition.

If you do honestly believe in those religions, then it will inspire only good in you.

I completely disagree with this. I've seen and read of far too many acts that I would not consider good inspired by religious people that honestly believe in their religion (Christianity most certainly included).

Excuse me?

Not to put words in his mouth, but I believe he's pointing out that anything can be "true" through faith, which can quickly lead to some serious problems.

But it's God that allowed me to find a job and keep it. It's through God's blessings that I was able to receive food. I might be working now, but he was the one that landed me the job. C; It was God that led those Doctors to journey into medical. So, God, job well done.

If you want to think that god got you that job, I can't really stop you (though it seems to me like it would be your efforts in locating that job and doing well enough at it to not get fired, not god's efforts). I think it's a bit much to steal the efforts and accomplishments of doctors and give them to god. How would you know god led them there instead of them going and getting the job themselves? And if god is leading them, are you saying they don't have free will? How could they be held accountable for their actions if god is the one making them do things?

No it doesn't. That's the same logic as saying I shouldn't tell my mother I love her because she already knows I do. I do it because I want to show appreciation/love even if they know it deep down in their hearts.

But an all-powerful, all-knowing god wouldn't know it deep down, it would know it directly (all-knowing). Showing appreciation would just be a superfluous gesture, since it would already be fully aware.

So, you recognize Lady Luck as your deity?

I never said that, and I'm not quite sure where you're getting that from. I just said it would make more sense to personify random occurrence than worship something we have no evidence for. Can't say I recognize natural events (such as random occurrence) as gods, just as natural events. Personification is different from deification.

To be totally clear, though, I'll break down my last sentence in that quote for you (since the first sentence only addresses personifying random occurrence).

"Seems to me like she's doing a lot more I can see than any other gods."

"she" is referring to a natural occurrence, that being random occurrences (something I made clear in the first sentence when I said we should personify luck).

"gods" is referring to fictional and/or mythological creatures of deity status (such as the norse pantheon, the greek pantheon, the celtic pantheon, the christian god, etc.).

So, lets look at that again:

"Seems to me like (random occurrences are) doing a lot more I can see than any (fictional and/or mythological creatures)."

I don't see any recognition of a deity there, just me pointing out that random chance is to thank for good luck (not that we should thank it, it's just a thing), and not magical creatures. If you're going to thank anything fictional/mythical, though, it makes more sense to thank the personification of random chance than gods.

Congrats, you're now religious.

Never said I wasn't, never said I was. Lets try not to label others, please.

Who's to say God doesn't give us the luck?

Who is to say it does?

Have you met Lady Luck? Did she say to you luck comes from her and not God?

Nope, but I bet she'd be a cool gal if I ever did. I say that luck comes from reality and not god, because I see no evidence of a god, let alone one giving me luck.

Have you met god? Did he explicitly say that luck comes from him and not any of the many other gods in the many other religions? What about Freya, Anubis, Hera, Dagda, or any of those other deities that might be helping you out?

Please read above.

I did, and it still seems to me that asking for power is selfish.

No, no, it is. Of course it is. But doing it in disrespectful manners isn't needed in every religious thread on the forum. :/

I apologize if I'm coming across as disrespectful, that is not my intention (I can't speak for der Astronom, but I'd guess he's calling it like he sees it and not meaning to insult, just pointing out issues that he sees). It strikes me that labeling others is a tad more disrespectful than just asking questions, though.

Seriously?

First off, how do you figure a being of unlimited power would have to 'drop everything he's doing' to fulfill someone's request? Secondly, if you don't think everyone in this world - religious or otherwise, isn't fundamentally selfish you're in for a nasty shock in life. Repeatedly.

Regardless of the "unlimited" status of said being's power, you're asking it to focus resources on you. His whole point was that you're being selfish, which is something you agree with.

Oh and what is it you're doing if not the same? What do you know of the beyond? Please, educate us lesser folk.

This one is taken out of context. He was responding to the concern that "Divinity" would have over people lashing out over differences in belief. He wasn't sitting on a high-horse, just pointing out that "I don't believe criticism of religions has anything much to do with ignoring what someone's god wants."

It's not as simple as that. Atheism is the belief that there are none. Not that there may or may not be, that's Agnosticism.

Actually, he made his definitions quite clear in another thread. Agnosticism is about knowledge, not belief. Hence why you can have agnostic atheists and agnostic theists.

He was asking a question, pondering the difference between monotheism and atheism. This contributes nothing to his question.

Seriously, if you want to pretend you have the higher ground whatever, you're not impressing anyone and in the end you're not even getting anything for it

Him saying he doesn't believe in god is different from him saying he believes there is no god. They aren't the only two options, that's a false dilemma. Refusal to believe in something illogical seems to put him on higher ground when talking about logical analysis of beliefs, but I doubt he'd claim or pretend that gives him any such higher ground (it only seems that it would, to me).

Here's something to ponder: What don't we do out of selfishness? Charity is self motivated, taking care of people is self motivated. Anything we do consciously is motivated by ourselves.

Selfish and self motivated are two different things. Something self motivated is not necessarily selfish, they have different meanings.

I'll tell you what's logically flawed, your opinion of yourself as a reference to certainty. Everything begins at an assumption - absolutely everything, so we can't truly know anything. That makes your 'knowledge' absolutely flawed.

Is this about reality being subjective? Cause that's a whole other argument, with its whole own set of problems.

Loooool. If that was the case we're all blameless and everyone goes to heaven. But hold on, isn't God punative in your opinion? My my, what a contradiction you've made.

Us being blameless does not mean god is not arbitrary or an asshole (in fact, the bible supports the idea that god is both arbitrary and an asshole, so blamelessness does not guarantee safety).

As if that's all religion exists for.

I didn't see him say it was. Or even imply it, really.

As if it's got nothing to do with the transcendence of death. Who thought up that bizarre idea?

Yeah, religion certainly serves as a (potentially false) hope in spite of death. Doesn't mean it automatically has real value.

As for Atheism..

This picture makes no sense in regards to atheism. It assumes that we all have souls, and that atheism cannot reward you in other ways (like in reality, which we know exists).

It just seems like a bad attempt at being insulting or a pathetic scare tactic to keep believers from questioning the potential of god(s) not existing.

Better morality? I'd love to know how you came to that conclusion.

I'd agree that basing your morals off reality around you instead of arbitrary rules set in a book is better. You're under no obligation to agree, though.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

Wouldn't you still be praying out of selfishness (and perhaps vanity, I might add)?

Omg, you guys are so bent on literal semantics to the point where it's just stupid.
Please stop following me from thread to thread with that nonsense.
Trying to throw this up as well as us 'scapegoating' on Jesus just really shows your lack of wisdom on the religion altogether.
Your just better off staying away from the subject, honestly.

 

[Jquestionmark]

Omg, you guys are so bent on literal semantics to the point where it's just stupid.

You neither answer his question, nor do you show why it isn't a valid concern. Seems to me that it is selfish and vain (by one of the two definitions you like to use, at least).

Either way, how are we supposed to have any conversation at all if we can't assume that others mean what they write? We might as well just stop forming sentences if there's no meaning.

Happy be formed literary house, coffee table the is distance.

Please stop following me from thread to thread with that nonsense.

I can't speak for der Astronom, but I'm not following you anywhere. I'm enjoying debating in the Religious Debate section, and you happen to be posting in it. If you don't want us to analyze the claims you make, don't make any claims or don't post.

Trying to throw this up as well as us 'scapegoating' on Jesus just really shows your lack of wisdom on the religion altogether.

The situation with Jesus is literally one of scapegoating, and you have yet to show otherwise. Trying to say that it is not requires redefining the word "scapegoat" or just lying. The situation is one of scapegoating, and it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise (which is why I point it out).

Your just better off staying away from the subject, honestly.

I think I'm just fine here, thanks.

 

[Emyunoxious]

Omg, you guys are so bent on literal semantics to the point where it's just stupid.

There's this thing called clarity that you may be unfamiliar with. See, if you're not clear in what you mean when you're talking, we can't go anywhere. We can't understand what you're saying.

Please stop following me from thread to thread with that nonsense.
Trying to throw this up as well as us 'scapegoating' on Jesus just really shows your lack of wisdom on the religion altogether.

See, like this. I don't know what the fuck this means. Please clarify or this topic will move on without you, buddy.

Your just better off staying away from the subject, honestly.

Don't try to chase me off just because I'm right, you know it, and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

There's this thing called clarity that you may be unfamiliar with. See, if you're not clear in what you mean when you're talking, we can't go anywhere. We can't understand what you're saying.

Yeah, and there is also something called reason, buddy.

Buddy- a partner, especially one of a pair or team associated under the buddy system.

See how stupid that is?

Don't try to chase me off just because I'm right, you know it, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Yeah, and I'm Morgan Freeman

 

[CassinoChips]

THREAD CLOSED TEMPORARILY, BECAUSE I CAN ONLY MODERATE ONE THING AT A TIME.

 

[CassinoChips]

Ok, here's the deal. This thread is not about religion vs. atheism. So do not turn it into such. God knows (ha) there are plenty of other threads that are currently discussing that particular topic, so keep that discussion in those threads. And not here.

This thread is about prayer, whether it be to Allah, God, Zoroaster, or the forces of nature. If you have nothing to say about the nature of prayer, this isn't the thread for you. The OP asks two fairly specific questions, and those should be the focus of this discussion. I'm re-posting them here.

"For those of us who believe in a higher power, have we ever thought about how the Divine feels about our actions? About how we lash out at one another over different beliefs, or how we mostly ask for stuff to happen to favor us and rarely ever take time just just thank the Divine for all of the things S/He has done for us already without our having asked?"

Any further off-topic or non-contributory posts in this thread will be deleted without warning.

Carry on.

THREAD RE-OPENED.

 

[der Astronom]

What? No. Praying to become someone better allows you to be able to help others. Which is exactly what God wants from us--to help others. Becoming someone better isn't selfish in the way you're thinking it is. Praying to become better shows humility, it shows that you know you're not perfect and you want to try and be better, not for yourself but for other people. If anyone really prays to be a better person just because they want to be perfect they're not praying right. The point of praying to be better isn't so you know you're a better person than most(that'd make the prayer almost useless) the point of praying to become a better person is so you can be better so you may help others, whether that be giving money donations, lending a helping hand to someone in need, or anything else.

First of all, the statement, "praying to become stronger" in no way indicates what intentions you have for becoming stronger, but it is selfish anyways because you're doing it for yourself (why not instead wish for someone else to be stronger?); if you really wanted to be stronger to help other people, why couldn't you directly ask for the well being of other people instead of asking to become stronger?

Secondly, when you say that's the point of praying, that's the point of praying in your perspective; in my opinion, prayer is nothing more than a device people use to calm themselves down, and it doesn't matter if you attach it to a god or a deity. I'm sure Buddhists don't pray for any particular god or deity, and their form of meditation works just as well for calming themselves down. If you really wanted to help someone, you can do more for them other than pray.

You don't pray to become a better person just so you can have the title of "I'm a better person". That is selfish. You pray to become a better person so you are empowered to help those around you, like Jesus did. And no, you pray to be empowered to help others because that's what God asks of us, not because it makes us look like saints while the rest of the world are ebil sinners.

And I'm saying that's still selfish because you are praying for people according to your own personal beliefs of what you believe is good for them--you believe that something is good for other people because your god asked you to do it, but how do you think other people who don't believe in god feel about this? What if they don't want your prayers because they don't think it helps them? You've done them no favor at all; you're just doing what god asked you to do to please him; if he hadn't asked you to do that, would you have done it anyways, and if so, why? If people just pray to god because they think god asked them to, they are doing it for their own religion, they are doing it for themselves, regardless of whether or not other people think it's good for them, and that is a selfish act.

You do know that with Christianity you are asked to pray for others besides yourself, right? I'm not speaking for other religions, but Christianity does ask it's followers to not only pray for strength, good health, but for the strength and good health to be give to others. They're called prayer groups.

I believe strength and good health can be obtained by actively working on it; not simply because someone prayed for it and it just happened. If you pray for me (for example), I can't consider it particularly as a favor because you haven't done anything for me. I can appreciate the fact that you mean well to me, but that's nowhere near the level of actually doing something for me (eg, a sick person might appreciate a donation from someone to fund an expensive operation that saves their lives; that you prayed has a lower probability of saving the guy's life). You are just praying because you think of it as a favor, while completely ignoring what I think about it, and because it's for your religion.

My Grandmother prayers for others. I pray for others. We do both.

I'm sure a lot of people were asked to pray for Japan (for example) too, but I don't think that does very much. Donation drives have a stronger impact than prayer does.

No, who are you to tell me or any other Christian/religious person that we're selfish because we can admit we're not perfect and we pray for our heavenly Father to help us in need? That's like saying a person is selfish for going to their dad or mother when in need of shelter if they have no other way to survive. It's illogical.

It is because you have obtained this perspective of yourselves from religion and you are working towards it. You have not considered that other people believe different things, or don't even believe in a god or gods, and you are asserting that anything you do on account of your religion must necessarily be good, even if other people don't agree with it. I know you might not agree with this, but if it were true that your religion must necessarily correct, then religious people who believe homosexuality is a sin probably believe that homosexual marriages are wrong, and because they do so on the basis of their own religion, they believe that their opinion on banning homosexual marriages are infallible. This kind of justification is absurd, religion is based on faith, and there's really no good reason I can see from religion for banning homosexual marriages.

It's incredibly sad that you have this image of religious people who pray being selfish in your mind. You can't generalize why we pray and deem it selfish just because you would do it out of selfishness if you prayed. We're not you, and you're not us.

What's incredibly sad is the people who aren't aware of the selfishness of religion. In case you didn't get it, I am not contesting your desire to be selfless to other people; it's the way in which you express it. It's because you think following your religion means being selfless where other people who believe different things are concerned. What is good according to your religion is not necessarily good to other people who don't believe the same things. Not considering the differences in other people's beliefs is just as selfish as praying out of selfishness.

Your logic is like saying a parent choosing to be killed rather than their child is doing it out of selfishness of their own pain or suffering. No. A parent would die for their child because they love their child and want them to live, not for them, but for themselves.

No, actually. What I'm saying is that if someone has a child, but they can't deliver him due to medical or genetical complications, then there is nothing wrong with aborting the child to save oneself; at the very least, you can guarantee the woman will live instead of both the woman and child dying because she chose to be completely selfless and had the child. That we obsess over such a useless thing as selfishness being always wrong is an over generalization, and there are some times where being selfish is necessary. I just happen to think not enough people realize how selfish they are being when they think they are being selfless; it's just the hypocrisy that bothers me, not because being selfish is wrong.

On top of that, if we go by your logic, you're basically saying as Jesus died on the cross and asked God to forgive his killers that he was doing it out of selfishness for his own good. That's just not true.

Well, maybe he was. Who knows. That wasn't my original point, but thinking about it, that might well be true. Maybe god did such a useless thing as sending Jesus to die on the cross as a scapegoat just to get more attention from believers, since this scapegoating thing doesn't do anything for the responsibility of those people.

However, what I was trying to say is that the act of scapegoating Jesus is selfishness. You are asking someone to take the blame for all of the things you do wrong so that you can be excused from having the responsibility to deal with such things, despite the fact that the people you are still responsible for have been wronged, and you haven't adequately made up for it because you shifted the blame on someone else--that's selfishness.

Again, says you. Religion allows others to live by a set of morals. It gives a sense of peace of knowing that someone loves you and wants the best for you, which some people can't even find amongst humans. And at the end of your life you have ultimate peace. Those might be useless to you. But some of us love knowing there's someone always there for you. Because people aren't. People are flawed.

And those morals from religion have rarely ever worked in practice.
I am well aware that some people are comforted by the delusion of being loved by someone they don't even know. However, I think it is healthier to seek love from real people than to spend time obsessing over the love an imaginary character can give you. God is just not an exception, simply because he's a part of religion. If you haven't found someone that loves you, and you care about it, it's entirely possible you just haven't found them yet. Condemning yourself to believing that no one loves you and using that as a reason to believe in an imaginary character that loves you could well be worse than not having found someone that loves you yet.

Being a part of a religion helps urge a person(if they truly believe) to do good in the world. I'm not saying there aren't atheists with morals, but religion sure as heck inspires good.

And I don't think it has. The Catholic church fails at this, history fails at this, and the religious teachings themselves fail at this.

My God... you really have a terrible interpretation of what Christianity is. Jesus isn't our scapegoat. We don't shift our responsibility to someone else, either. Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law, he fulfilled it.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. - Colossians 2:13-14

What that means is the Law still stands, but by dying in our place, Jesus took away the penalty due us for breaking the Law, giving us immunity from prosecution. So Jesus didn’t abolish the Law. In effect Paul was saying He abolished the consequences for breaking the Law. But Paul also argued passionately that we should adopt behavioral standards that in fact are consistent with God’s Law. Not because we’re accountable for doing so, but because it’s the best way to express our gratitude for the fact that we aren’t.


Hopefully that was worded right. :3

And that's exactly what scapegoating does; you are relieved of all of your responsibilities because you are not punished for anything you do wrong, and someone, deserving or not, gets the blame for it instead. If you smash someone's car window, you are responsible for repaying the damage. It doesn't matter if you pray for Jesus, you're still responsible for replacing the window. And if you think we should still behave responsibly to others, then I don't see why you'd have to scapegoat Jesus as well.

Those people that darkened Christianity in those eras weren't Christians because they truly believed in Jesus Christ as their savior and wanted to live by the law. They used religion as a power to control the true believers beneath them. You can't use a power-hungry government of kings and queens to try and prove Christianity doesn't inspire morals. Those people that claimed they were Christian weren't true Christians at heart, otherwise they wouldn't have done any of what they did.

I see no reason why they weren't Christians just because they don't agree with the same ideas you have about Christianity. The fact is, you can trace the parts in the bible that explained their behavior then; there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't call themselves Christians, or any reason why I can't think of them as not being Christians.

Now maybe there are morals in the bible that happen to agree with the modern secular humanism that exists now, but they've been mixed in there with everything else in the bible from the Old Testament and all the contradictions that you can't simply pick and choose which of those things are worth following, which are not, and which are merely interpretive unless you had an external standard for judging them. Which is why I don't blame those governments for not having better judgment; they were probably following the bible to the best of their ability with the limited amount of knowledge, philosophy and science they had then. Is it any wonder then that their interpretation of the bible then was probably more literal than ours is now?

They were using Christianity/other religions as a facade to hide behind so they could gain land and power. Simple as that. Think of the past civilizations and how they used Christianity as someone doing the two hand mind trick. They're holding out two hands, telling you to find the quarter, they're doing something suspicious with their right hand, gaining your attention to that one instead of their left so they can continue to do what they're doing. That's how most kings and queens of the past used religion. They didn't become Christian because they truly believed in it but rather did it because they knew it could control people. Which, darkened religion in some atheists eyes.

And Christianity still continues to gain land and power. If you think Christianity isn't as corrupt as it was, think again because it's still corrupt; Christianity is the excuse/disguise people use when pushing creationism in schools. The Catholic church spreads misinformation about AIDS and condom use. They use it as justification against abortion, gay marriages and stem cell research.
I don't think anyone can say for sure that they knew what the kings and queens thought of the bible then, so I'm not sure I can give your argument any credit for what they were actually trying to do. They're just not Christian in the same way you are.

But, how about you judge Christianity/ other religions on what they should be judged by... their Holy books. You'll see that what those empowered "Christians/ other religious people" did were doing things completely against their religion.

And their holy books are nothing more than authoritarian pieces of mythological literature which makes no good claims to truth, or any consistent statements about morality. As I said, I don't blame some people for believing the bible literally at a time when they probably knew nothing else. They're not any different from people interpreting the bible now in that we are affected by the laws of our times, contact with other cultures, and the secular humanist morals that exist in society. They just never had those same benefits we do now.

Christianity/religion can only inspire good in you if you're ready for it. It's up to you to allow the religions to inspire good, all you have to do is read it and pay attention and try and live by it as close as you can.

You're basically saying it can inspire good if I want it to, and it can inspire bad things if I want it to, so what's the point of having it in the first place then? If you can inspire yourself to do good on your own terms instead of blaming it on a religion because you looked at it a certain way, can't you simply just apply the same logic to real life?

If you do honestly believe in those religions, then it will inspire only good in you.

That is, if I believe in those religions the same way you do. Unfortunately, I do not have such a view of the bible, and I don't see why I have to.

Excuse me?

If religion ever had a point, and it was based off of faith, it's points do not have a solid basis for claiming anything, and no one must be convinced of it. You can do so on your own terms, but people would not be obligated to believe religion must be good.

Seriously?

First off, how do you figure a being of unlimited power would have to 'drop everything he's doing' to fulfill someone's request? Secondly, if you don't think everyone in this world - religious or otherwise, isn't fundamentally selfish you're in for a nasty shock in life. Repeatedly.

He wouldn't; the implication is that you're somehow more important to god than everyone else praying for him; all it is is a bunch of people praying to god for the same few selfish reasons, and hoping they'll have a spot in heaven.

If you read my other post, I never suggested that we aren't selfish; I just pointed that out because people seem to think they're doing a favor by praying for someone or something, so they think it's not selfish--it is, and I just explained why.

Oh and what is it you're doing if not the same? What do you know of the beyond? Please, educate us lesser folk.

This isn't even about what I know. Even if I were a religious person making this statement, that wouldn't even matter; if you're religious, and you're going to criticize a religion because it's based on faith, don't forget that your religion is also.
But because I also happen to be an atheist, I don't have any one particular belief that I criticize more than others; I criticize them all equally on the grounds that they are based on nothing more than faith and can make no claims to truth. The only reason you see me talk more about Christianity than any other religion is simply because it's the one that gets talked about the most, and that's where most of the flawed arguments come from.

It's not as simple as that. Atheism is the belief that there are none. Not that there may or may not be, that's Agnosticism.

The distinction between atheism and agnosticism are moot as they aren't even the same comparison; atheism is a position on whether or not you believe a god or gods exist. Agnosticism is a position on what you know; that is, I can be sure I know god doesn't exist, or I can't be sure that god exists, but choose to believe he doesn't anyways. Agnosticism doesn't even come into this discussion.

Seriously, if you want to pretend you have the higher ground whatever, you're not impressing anyone and in the end you're not even getting anything for it

And that wouldn't be my point; my point is that monotheists only believe in a god, while atheists don't believe in a god or gods at all; if a monotheist were to stop believing in that one god they believed in, they'd be like atheists. Whether or not they're agnostic or gnostic is irrelevant. What I meant to say is that monotheists and atheists are the same in that there are so many gods they already don't believe in, but for some reason, monotheists insist on believing in this one god, so why do they make an exception for the god they believe in, since there's no particularly strong basis for their belief in their god over all other gods?

I'll tell you what's logically flawed, your opinion of yourself as a reference to certainty. Everything begins at an assumption - absolutely everything, so we can't truly know anything. That makes your 'knowledge' absolutely flawed.

Doesn't that apply to yourself as well? Either we are unsure of everything, and anything we say is possibly logically flawed (ie, end of discussion), or there is some logic to be had in the things we think about, and the only way to discern it is to discuss it mutually with an outer frame of reference. Since saying anything we think about can be logically flawed defeats the whole point of having this discussion, do you have any other point to pick at with regards to religion being logically flawed specifically?

Loooool. If that was the case we're all blameless and everyone goes to heaven. But hold on, isn't God punative in your opinion? My my, what a contradiction you've made.

But that's the point; it doesn't. Shifting your responsibility onto someone else doesn't absolve you of anything you do wrong; religion just offers you the illusion that it does.
I hate having to bring this up because it's so obviously stupid, but that I'm even talking about religion has nothing to do with what I believe. I happen to have an opinion on religion, and I do, otherwise I couldn't explain to you why I don't believe in religion or follow any of its rules (specifically, Christianity), which may include hypothetical cases of if I were Christian... That is, if god existed, I'd think he's an asshole. That I don't believe in god and that I don't find god to be a particularly shining beacon of morality are for separate reasons; I don't believe in god because I see no good reason for it, and I don't like god because of the way he's been described in the bible.

As if that's all religion exists for. As if it's got nothing to do with the transcendence of death. Who thought up that bizarre idea?

And transcendence of death isn't even a certainty. Religion in no way supports its validity. Who thought up that bizarre idea?

As for Atheism..

Thanks for mischaracterizing a group of people you seem to know nothing about.

Better morality? I'd love to know how you came to that conclusion.

Well, abolishment of slavery certainly didn't come about because of religion; it existed because it did not condemn it. And the same can be said for attitudes towards homosexuals, gender equality, science, freedom of (from) religion, skepticism in general and stoning people, all of which have either been mentioned and discouraged in the bible, or have been come under attack because of religion inspired by the bible. So clearly, that we even have tolerance of homosexuals, different religions and the like could not have been because of religion, but in spite of it.

 

[Emyunoxious]

I personally spend five minutes every day ritualistically killing god and sodomizing myself with a crucifix, but not in that order. This is a deeply personal ritual for me, as it represents, at once, the atrocities committed against my people in the Norse lands, including the metaphorical rape of our country with crucifixes (represented by the sodomy). I consider it to be a prayer to myself, a sort of centering. Through stimulation of my prostate, I reach ejaculation, and I remove the wooden cross and ejaculate upon it. This shit, blood, and cum covered cross now symbolizes what I view God as. I then light it on fire.

Yes, I think it is very important to take time to appreciate what God has provided for you, and what he, and his followers, have taken from you.

Now, I have a question.

Do you find my ritual to be offensive? If so, why is it more offensive than other forms of prayer? Personally, I find the idea of the prayer on your knees, head bent, to be hideously subservient and utterly disgusting.

 

[der Astronom]

I personally spend five minutes every day ritualistically killing god and sodomizing myself with a crucifix, but not in that order. This is a deeply personal ritual for me, as it represents, at once, the atrocities committed against my people in the Norse lands, including the metaphorical rape of our country with crucifixes (represented by the sodomy). I consider it to be a prayer to myself, a sort of centering. Through stimulation of my prostate, I reach ejaculation, and I remove the wooden cross and ejaculate upon it. This shit, blood, and cum covered cross now symbolizes what I view God as. I then light it on fire.

Yes, I think it is very important to take time to appreciate what God has provided for you, and what he, and his followers, have taken from you.

Now, I have a question.

Do you find my ritual to be offensive? If so, why is it more offensive than other forms of prayer? Personally, I find the idea of the prayer on your knees, head bent, to be hideously subservient and utterly disgusting.

Personally, I think you should do whatever you want on your free time, so if you want to spend a prayer by insulting a religion, by all means go right ahead.

What I have a problem with is people coming here and telling people that we should spend more time praying a certain way while not being aware that their own prayers are done out of selfishness, either because they are asking for something, or because they are doing it for their religion. If you want to pray, and if it means being selfish, no one is stopping you from doing it. But to come on here and tell people that we need to pray in a way that serves your own religion and call it selfless, when you can actually be doing more for people besides praying? That's just absurd.