Cloud's Love Triangle - The LTD of FFVII

[Terra Branford]

Exactly. Which makes me wonder how anyone could get Aerith thinking/saying "I love you Cloudy-bird" out of EITHER of those. And also makes me doubt even a loose titling of this book as Game guide or art book could even remotely resemble the kind of text I've been described.

Suspicious Dragon Mage is suspicious.

Its an information guide book, it contain those things as information

Not that it's fake, just that it isn't valid. I still don't see how this can possibly contain the text I've been described.

Do you trust Play-Asian? They have another Dismantled book for FF7, one with Aerith on it. Not the way we are talking about, but this one I believe, is like a sequel to it

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-15p-49-jp-70-11rb.html

I believe the book has been talked about by Famitsu as well

Or could also translate this site. Biggest information place in Japanese containing everything Final Fantasy VII related. They might have a link someplace:
http://mag.autumn.org/Content.modf?id=20050921184737

FFWikia has talked about it as well. There is the blue one, the one we are talking about and then there is the green one:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII_Merchandise

This will help you understand what it is and that it is in fact, canon.
http://ff7-cloudloku.atspace.com/eng.html#libri

And just for the heck of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Square_Enix_companion_books
http://www.tuulisti.com/ff_books.htm

Would a seal of Square Enix (or what it was at that point) be enough to prove its real and exists?

You can find more by searching the real name:
Final Fantasy VII The Complete Disection

I was joking as well

I only require to see the exact source that you are using. That would be plenty for me to understand where you are drawing your information from. Problem is, that exact source doesn't seem accessible unless someone uploads a scan of the exact page.

Unfortunately, I cannot read Japanese xD

But I'm sure the Lifestream forums has the quote.

It could very well be such the case. But from what I understand, you're saying that it was released with the game, no matter what edition or country it was from, right?

Yes, it was released for Japan only for the game. It later got a revision and the blue version has become extremely, extremely rare.

Not "with" the game, but in the same year "for" the game to people who have the game so it could be "with" the game.

If that makes sense. If not, I mean they were sold separately, but the book is for the game

Also, I had edited my post before you posted. There is a link to a thread where someone is translating the book and has scans, some.

 

[bill114]

d'oh. I can't even believe this is still being discussed after all these years. I've always thought it was obvious.

Hint: It's the one he had sex with and is currently living with.

 

[Celica]

Hint: It's the one he had sex with and is currently living with.

*Ninjas in to make a quick reply* Square pretty much confirmed that Cloud and Tifa stayed up all night talking to each other, not having sex.

Changable Event 3 (before the final battle.)
Another event is when the party was dismissed and after everyone left for their own places separately, Cloud and Tifa spent the night together.
At that moment, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud, the event of "dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn" and "Tifa's reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance" will be different. - Final Fantasy VII: Dismantled

Until they reunite with friends in the airship, the conversation in the scene that Cloud and Tifa spend the night in the meadow can be different, according to the rating of Tifa's affection to Cloud. Final Fantasy VII: Ultimania Omega (p. 201)

So no, Cloud and Tifa weren't up all night doing the freak-nasty on a pointy rock while everyone was watching. That'd be pretty gross.
All they were doing was talking.

 

[tilinelson2]

Though there are some few interesting arguments in this thread, sometimes people give much importance to facts and words which would be meaningless in a real context. I don't think a word or a comment (I take everything outside the game as personal comments about the story, not facts) will be enough to prove anything.

 

[bill114]

*Ninjas in to make a quick reply* Square pretty much confirmed that Cloud and Tifa stayed up all night talking to each other, not having sex.

Changable Event 3 (before the final battle.)
Another event is when the party was dismissed and after everyone left for their own places separately, Cloud and Tifa spent the night together.
At that moment, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud, the event of "dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn" and "Tifa's reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance" will be different. - Final Fantasy VII: Dismantled

Until they reunite with friends in the airship, the conversation in the scene that Cloud and Tifa spend the night in the meadow can be different, according to the rating of Tifa's affection to Cloud. Final Fantasy VII: Ultimania Omega (p. 201)

So no, Cloud and Tifa weren't up all night doing the freak-nasty on a pointy rock while everyone was watching. That'd be pretty gross.
All they were doing was talking.

It doesn't say anywhere in there that they didn't have sex. My suggestion is to quit taking twisted information from the Aerith fan site.

oh yeah, ULTIMANIA, the OFFICIAL FF SOURCE, lists all couples in the FF universes. Cloud/Tifa is listed as one of them, with the sexy sex scene listed there as well.

 

[Terra Branford]

Wow...had no idea people posted xD

It doesn't say anywhere in there that they didn't have sex. My suggestion is to quit taking twisted information from the Aerith fan site.

oh yeah, ULTIMANIA, the OFFICIAL FF SOURCE, lists all couples in the FF universes. Cloud/Tifa is listed as one of them, with the sexy sex scene listed there as well.

First of all...the information isn't from a "Aerith fan site", it is from Final Fantasy VII: Ultimania Omega (p. 201), as listed. Though I suppose it depends on what translation you use: the correct, the faulty and/or the mistranslated...

Second! To which Ultimania (and as you say is the official FF source) are you referring to? It would be nice to see this Ultimania page please and not from the Lifestream forums. Otherwise, I will have to assume you mean Ultimania book in which the above, aka the post you quoted, came from as well as the same Ultimania in which you speak which also featured Aerith with Cloud as well. By your wording, this proves Cloud and Aerith as canon.

But, if you meant another Ultimania page, then please post which it is and please make sure its a trustworthy site.

Lastly, it is mere fandom which leads you to think they had sex in front of everyone. Which, even if they did, would be so un-romantic I would pity Tifa (which as a fan of her, I'm disappointed in other Tifa fans for saying such a thing) for being used by Cloud. The post you quoted therein, proves that they did NOT have sex. To think so is redundant after reading what the Ultimania, as you said "the official FF source", clearly states that they TALKED, not sex'd each other. Here is the quote again:

Changable Event 3 (before the final battle.)

Another event is when the party was dismissed and after everyone left for their own places separately, Cloud and Tifa spent the night together.

At that moment, according to Tifa's affection rating with Cloud, the event of "dialogues exchanged between them from dusk to dawn" and "Tifa's reaction and lines when she found out that everyone might see (or hear) that circumstance" will be different. - Final Fantasy VII: Dismantled

Until they reunite with friends in the airship, the conversation in the scene that Cloud and Tifa spend the night in the meadow can be different, according to the rating of Tifa's affection to Cloud.
Final Fantasy VII: Ultimania Omega (p. 201)

No where in there do you read that they "spent the night having sex". You do however, read the following words: "Conversation, Dialogues, Lines and HEAR". And you also read about them having a discussion. And those words do not relate to sex or having sex, as having sex isn't a "conversation" or a "dialouge" or even "lines".

And if you jump to the conclusion at the "spending the night together" automatically means "sexing each other" then I suppose when, for example, the party (whoever you might have in your party) spends the night together at a Inn/Hotel I or another could assume they were up having sex? Because that's the same kind of logic...

And if that's the reason you assume they had sex you need to know that "spending the night together" isn't JUST for sex. It is absurd thinking and makes it seem as though that's all their "Relationship" is. Would you honestly, as a CloudxTifa fan (if you are a Cloti?), want them to have sex instead of talking to each other? What possible "romance" could be mustered from that? Sex doesn't = love

And sex doesn't mean love either, so don't give me that.

 

[tilinelson2]

There is a common cliché in Japanese stories where, if the main character spends the night awake with another character, that means they are building a lasting relationship.

Though FFVII is soaked with clichés, we can't say that the scene where Cloud and Tifa spent means that they have built a lasting relationship. The suggestive cliché is there, but there is no evidence in the game that they stayed together.

To say that there was a "sex scene" is to mix the game with your own wet dreams. Where was this scene, as I didn´t see it? Anyway, even if there was a sex scene like that, it wouldn´t change a thing, as love and sex are unrelated (sorry, romantics, that is the truth).

I couldn't care less about who loves Cloud or not or who Cloud loves. It is such an unimportant part of the plot, I don´t see why the need of such heated debates. Everyone has the right to think what he wants about the game, but there is no need to discuss it so fiercely by cherry-picking words in dubious sources to support claims that cannot be validate when analysing the whole scope.

 

[The Witch]

I hate debating this. But I just have to post just once.

d'oh. I can't even believe this is still being discussed after all these years. I've always thought it was obvious.

Hint: It's the one he had sex with and is currently living with.

Um, he doesn't have sex with her. That is if you get the optional scene--which is what you're kinda relying on. :/ Optional meaning there's no canon outcome.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Er... what optional scene? I detect you're referring to something in the game, but I have no idea what it actually is xD

By that token, any of the dates in the game are also optional, and therefore also means there is no canon outcome for any of them -- not Aerith, not Tifa, not Yuffie, and not Barret.

Thank god, not Barret!

 

[The Witch]

Er... what optional scene? I detect you're referring to something in the game, but I have no idea what it actually is xD

By that token, any of the dates in the game are also optional, and therefore also means there is no canon outcome for any of them -- not Aerith, not Tifa, not Yuffie, and not Barret.

Thank god, not Barret!

The optional highwind scene, the scene he said they had sex in. The HW scene is 100% optional with no canon outcome.

Aaaand, I don't know about you all, but when the creators of the game say Aerith is the "NORMAL date" or the "easiest date" and that Tifa, Barret's and Yuffie's dates are "abnormal" I think it's made quite clear who the canon outcome is.

Just sayin'.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Oh, aerith's the easiest date, certainly, but then her base score was much higher than the rest. It's fairly obvious they wanted the player to feel attached to her to make her lose all the more potent. The other dates aren't abnormal, though -- they're just different dates. LOL material, through and through, for ALL of the dates, including Aerith's. I suspect it was comedic relief, personally.

I loved where she slaps Cloud and THAT'S when he begins "playing along" in the play, if you chose all the asshole responses.

Now, what optional highwind scene are you talking about? The one where Cloud tells everyone to meet their families for the last time and whatnot? Or the supposed cut-out scene where Cloud and Tifa go into the chocobo stable in the Highwind and come out later with straw in their hair?

 

[The Witch]

Oh, aerith's the easiest date, certainly, but then her base score was much higher than the rest. It's fairly obvious they wanted the player to feel attached to her to make her lose all the more potent. The other dates aren't abnormal, though -- they're just different dates. LOL material, through and through, for ALL of the dates, including Aerith's. I suspect it was comedic relief, personally.

No, lol, in one of the official books written by SQUARE ENIX and Nomura Aerith's date is the normal date.

1. In Aerith's case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith. ~FFVII Dismantled

​

If Aerith is the date you get when you play the game normally that means everyone else is abnormal. Which, in turn, means that being romantic towards Tifa is abnormal when being romantic to Aerith is normal.

See, for you to get Tifa as the date the player(this means you) has to act romantic towards her( which means taking her panties, saying she's your GF, being mean to Aerith, etc, etc) only then, after you choose to show romantic interest in Tifa can she be the one as your date. But, this quote from Nomura that I just provided said getting anyone else on the date isn't normal.

Which, as I said above, basically means being romantic to Tifa is abnormal and being romantic to Aerith is normal.

Now, what optional highwind scene are you talking about? The one where Cloud tells everyone to meet their families for the last time and whatnot? Or the supposed cut-scene where Cloud and Tifa go into the chocobo stable in the Highwind and come out later with straw in their hair?

Have you played VII? If you have, you should know that a chocobo stable scene doesn't exist. The only scene that C/T fans interpret to include sex is the Highwind scene(the scene where Cloud and Tifa talk before the big battle with Sephiroth)

 

[Dragon Mage]

No, lol, in one of the official books written by SQUARE ENIX and Nomura Aerith's date is the normal date.

1. In Aerith's case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith. ~FFVII Dismantled

​

If Aerith is the date you get when you play the game normally that means everyone else is abnormal. Which, in turn, means that being romantic towards Tifa is abnormal when being romantic to Aerith is normal.

See, for you to get Tifa as the date the player(this means you) has to act romantic towards her( which means taking her panties, saying she's your GF, being mean to Aerith, etc, etc) only then, after you choose to show romantic interest in Tifa can she be the one as your date. But, this quote from Nomura that I just provided said getting anyone else on the date isn't normal.

Which, as I said above, basically means being romantic to Tifa is abnormal and being romantic to Aerith is normal.

Well, that isn't true. I played the game twice, without consulting any dating guide and the first time got Aerith, the second time got Tifa, totally by accident. I was playing the game normally but just chose different options than I had the first time. Trust me, there's very minute differences in the choice which can decide the outcome xD. It entirely depends upon the player's choice which date you get, which leads me to say that the whole date scene should be fairly ignored in a debate of this kind. There's too much bias, as it were.

But note that he also said, "generally". Meaning, usually. For the most part. But not always. And I'd debate about that "normally" because they're just banking on the fact that you won't chose a more sarcastic option during your first playthrough -- I didn't, so there you have it. But when I played through it a second time, I chose slightly different replies with a totally different outcome. (I resented the way a 4-year-old DARE presume to set up dates! The nerve!)

Justifying ANY pairing by the date scene will not hold up under scrutiny. Saying that any date besides Aerith's date is abnormal also a fallacy -- it's assuming that because he said "normally" that MUST mean anything that doesn't fit his exact specifications (which are hardly exact -- how do you know what 'normal' play is anyway?) is ABNORMAL. Which is silly, really. The only qualification that you have with this quote to specify "normal gameplay" is Aerith's date, and I hardly need to point out the blatant bias inherent within that assumption.

The date scene has been widely debated for years, I'd like to save us all the pain and just avoid it altogether. When you get right down to it, it doesn't help any side -- it's just one of those things that are perpetually debated in endless circles.

Have you played VII? If you have, you should know that a chocobo stable scene doesn't exist. The only scene that C/T fans interpret to include sex is the Highwind scene(the scene where Cloud and Tifa talk before the big battle with Sephiroth)

Yes, I have played it, several times, thank you.

I was wondering to what you were referring to because you didn't actually describe the scene in question so yeah.....

I know the chocobo stable scene doesn't exist -- it was cut out at the last moment of the script editing process.

Yeah, I myself may prefer CxT but I never interpreted that scene as a sex one. Are you kidding? That's just stupid. Getting frisky on wet grass and bare dirt? Can you imagine how uncomfortable that would be? (Sharp rocks embedded in your arse cheeks would hurt like hell.) HELL NO. It was just a heartwarming touchy scene.

 

[The Witch]

Well, that isn't true. I played the game twice, without consulting any dating guide and the first time got Aerith, the second time got Tifa, totally by accident. I was playing the game normally but just chose different options than I had the first time. Trust me, there's very minute differences in the choice which can decide the outcome xD. It entirely depends upon the player's choice which date you get, which leads me to say that the whole date scene should be fairly ignored in a debate of this kind. There's too much bias, as it were.

As should every optional scene that doesn't have a normal/easiest outcome. As for Aerith and Cloud's date, it's been called easiest and normal(while others were called abnormal) the highwind scene has nothing declaring either scene more easy or more normal.

Which is silly, really. The only qualification that you have with this quote to specify "normal gameplay" is Aerith's date, and I hardly need to point out the blatant bias inherent within that assumption.

Nomura said, "If you play the game normally Aerith will be the partner that comes on the date." Are you calling me biased or Nomura? Because he's the one that said her being the date is normal not me. So, cool. Nomura's a biased Clourith. Awesome.

The date scene has been widely debated for years, I'd like to save us all the pain and just avoid it altogether. When you get right down to it, it doesn't help any side -- it's just one of those things that are perpetually debated in endless circles.

Says you. Cloud and Aerith's date takes place in the city of desire, to which it ends "magically". It might not mean anything on the C/T side, but it sure as hell has a huge romantic atmosphere for Cloud and Aerith. Therefor, it does help CloudxAerith's side.

Yeah, I myself may prefer CxT but I never interpreted that scene as a sex one. Are you kidding? That's just stupid. Getting frisky on wet grass and bare dirt? Can you imagine how uncomfortable that would be? (Sharp rocks embedded in your arse cheeks would hurt like hell.)

Well, we agree there. But I've debated this for years and believe me, I've seen every claim in this dumb debate. There are a wide majority of fans who love the C/T ship and fantasize that Cloud and Tifa did it on a bunch of pointy rocks. There's a whole forum that thinks this way.

Just glad I found a Cloti that doesn't agree with that weird theory.

 

[Terra Branford]

Er... what optional scene? I detect you're referring to something in the game, but I have no idea what it actually is xD

By that token, any of the dates in the game are also optional, and therefore also means there is no canon outcome for any of them -- not Aerith, not Tifa, not Yuffie, and not Barret.

Thank god, not Barret!

Yes. The scene the user Cali quoted was referring to an optional scene. By "optional" it requires the user to pick the scene he/she wants to see. In this scene, the user will have to gain a certain affection rating to see the scene where they stay up all night talking, which is the high affection. The lower affection rating will result in a smaller talk that ends differently. (I haven't played it in some years, though I have watched it on youtube xD).

Didn't the earlier quote talking about the difference scenes you will get depending on Tifa's affection level?

----------
​

We have official statements backing up Aerith's date being the default/whatever date out of them all. The other dates are optional. Optional meaning you can pick or choose to (basically having to treat Aerith as a pack mule) to get their dates. But with no trying and not deliberately giving negative outcome to others, Aerith will be the default date.

To get the date with Tifa you have to treat Aerith as a outsider (treat her badly) and work to get romantic instances or choose (meaning optional but in the creator's words "default/normal" ) to show romance between them, Cloud and Tifa.

Well, that isn't true. I played the game twice, without consulting any dating guide and the first time got Aerith, the second time got Tifa, totally by accident. I was playing the game normally but just chose different options than I had the first time. Trust me, there's very minute differences in the choice which can decide the outcome xD. It entirely depends upon the player's choice which date you get, which leads me to say that the whole date scene should be fairly ignored in a debate of this kind. There's too much bias, as it were.

If I may, may I ask how are the official words of the creators...not true? I wonder why you got Aerith as your first date...Could it be the fact that you were picking normally? The second date is because you decided to increase the level for Tifa by decreasing the default level between Aerith and Cloud.

When you act like a jerkface to Aerith and only then, the default affection level between Cloud and Aerith decreases and Tifa and Cloud's affection increases.

Default means that her date is the one you get without trying or picking the choice to be a jerk to Aerith so you don't get the default date and the optional date with Tifa/Barret/Yuffie.

Justifying ANY pairing by the date scene will not hold up under scrutiny.

That's how a lot of people see the fictional scene (though you personally may not believe in that scene...) that the Clotis think Cloud and Tifa had sex under the Highwind.

The differences? What is being discussed at this current moment has been stated by the creators and holds a great significance to the debate going on right now.

The fictional sex scene? Well, its just that...fictional. Never stated by official sources, just backed by fandom. There is even quotes from official sources telling exactly what went down -- conversation -- yet people still want to believe in a scene that doesn't exist?

Justifying a pairing under a make-belief scene backed by nothing? Or justifying a pairing under optional scenes? That doesn't hold up under "scrutiny".

The date scene has been widely debated for years, I'd like to save us all the pain and just avoid it altogether. When you get right down to it, it doesn't help any side -- it's just one of those things that are perpetually debated in endless circles.

Why should it be dropped from the discussion? Its a perfectly acceptable piece of the LTD that can help determine the outcome of the debate. If we throw this out of the discussion, what will be next? I could say the same for the fictional scenes and moments Clotis have seen, yet I won't because it deserves to be discussed to help bring an end -- finally xD -- to the LTD.

I beg to differ. It greatly effects one side over the other.

Yeah, I myself may prefer CxT but I never interpreted that scene as a sex one. Are you kidding? That's just stupid. Getting frisky on wet grass and bare dirt? Can you imagine how uncomfortable that would be? (Sharp rocks embedded in your arse cheeks would hurt like hell.) HELL NO. It was just a heartwarming touchy scene.

Agreed!

 

[Ilyena]

Er, I'd just like to point out that if they give the options to say what you want, then I wouldn't consider choosing an option that's sarcastic/mean as abnormal. I think that's just a silly thing to say (and yes I'm calling Nomura silly for saying it). Basically, being nicer to Aerith is more likely to land you a date with her and being nicer to Tifa is more likely to land you a date with Tifa.

Tbh, I never really saw any canon pairing in FFVII when I played the game. Cloud didn't even seem to have romantic feelings towards either of them. And with all of the dialogue options, it seemed like Square was giving the player a chance to have some of the scenes go the way they wanted (theoretically Cloud could grow closer to whichever girl the player chooses).

As a person who doesn't really care about either pairing, this is how I viewed it.




...Clephiroth 4lyfe (j/k Ilyr Cali )

 

[tilinelson2]

What is interesting enough of Nomura is that he stated all that glorious thing about Aerith's "We wanted the players to understand that in real life people die blablabla, that is why players were unable to revive her...", but he is the one who couldn't get over her death. All his future writings and sayings are in some way retconning the original FFVII in order to make Aerith's life and afterlife look happier than it looked on the original FFVII.

I wonder if there is ever a FFVII remake, he'd not include a secret way of reviving Aerith, like they did with Phantasy Star II remake (other case of creator who couldn't get over his character's death). And if ever a remake is made, I fear very much for the retconned dialogue it will most probably have.

 

[Dragon Mage]

As should every optional scene that doesn't have a normal/easiest outcome. As for Aerith and Cloud's date, it's been called easiest and normal(while others were called abnormal) the highwind scene has nothing declaring either scene more easy or more normal.

Nomura said, "If you play the game normally Aerith will be the partner that comes on the date." Are you calling me biased or Nomura? Because he's the one that said her being the date is normal not me. So, cool. Nomura's a biased Clourith. Awesome.

Just because it's the easiest to get doesn't make it canon. It's something that is still so subjective to the player's whim it isn't actually canon at all. The higher base score for Aerith as opposed to Tifa could very well mean that she has greater, more overt affection for Cloud than Tifa does, and responds to compliments greater than Tifa. Or Yuffie.

Or Barret.

Fact of the matter is, if you like Aerith as a character, you as a player will choose options that will get a date with her. If you like Tifa more, you as a player will choose options that will get a date with her. Same goes with Yuffie or Barret. It entirely depends on the player deciding how Cloud will react to the characters. That does not speak to me as being "canon".

No matter which way you spin it, though Aerith's may be the easiest date to get, it isn't canon. This was back when FF7 still had vague 'role-play' elements in it, remember? Too much of the player bias is getting through. Look at what Nephry said -- you don't have to act like a total jagoff to Aerith at all; a lot of the replies aren't even focused at Aerith that effects the base score, like chatting with Marlene and what not. And yes, I'm calling you biased because you clearly like Aerith as a character. Bias isn't bad -- it's just a preference. Like how you're biased for your favorite color. Same difference.

Says you. Cloud and Aerith's date takes place in the city of desire, to which it ends "magically". It might not mean anything on the C/T side, but it sure as hell has a huge romantic atmosphere for Cloud and Aerith. Therefor, it does help CloudxAerith's side.

Well, what a coincidence, because so does Tifa's date with him. Why would the date between Cloud and Tifa be any different for C/Ters than the date between Cloud and Aerith would be for C/Aers, and the relationship for CloudxTifa? Therefore, it does help CloudxTifa's side.

This is why the date isn't used in this debate. No side wins. It's rather pointless to even debate about debating about it, really! xD

Well, we agree there. But I've debated this for years and believe me, I've seen every claim in this dumb debate. There are a wide majority of fans who love the C/T ship and fantasize that Cloud and Tifa did it on a bunch of pointy rocks. There's a whole forum that thinks this way.

Just glad I found a Cloti that doesn't agree with that weird theory.

Such forums make us all look bad. But then, I can't say an obnoxiously PINK forum dedicated to C/A helps that side either, lol. (No seriously... it was PINK.) I've been known to make jokes about that scene because that's precisely the point -- it's a joke they'd do such a thing.

There's more of us that don't agree with that weird assumption. You probably don't hear about it though since the more.... enthused fans are more vocal about it.

We have official statements backing up Aerith's date being the default/whatever date out of them all. The other dates are optional. Optional meaning you can pick or choose to (basically having to treat Aerith as a pack mule) to get their dates. But with no trying and not deliberately giving negative outcome to others, Aerith will be the default date.

To get the date with Tifa you have to treat Aerith as a outsider (treat her badly) and work to get romantic instances or choose (meaning optional but in the creator's words "default/normal" ) to show romance between them, Cloud and Tifa.

It isn't a default, it's just the easiest. If it were default, then there would be no other dating scenes.

And WHY do you think that choosing options other than Aerith means treating Aerith like a "pack mule"? The choices are really quite sedate. It's basically down to whether you -- THE PLAYER -- wanted Cloud to respond to Aerith's overtures or wanted him to dodge them. Really, that's it. The only time Cloud acts smarmy is during the play in the dating scene, which is actually a cardboard cutout for the other dates as well. :\ Like I said, comedic relief.

And no, you don't have to treat Aerith as an outsider. What? Where are you getting this from? I'm quite sincerely puzzled. Besides, as I said earlier, there's player bias to consider -- if you like Aerith's character, you'll likely choose responses that ups her date score. If you don't really like her character or not really interested (my brother played the game and he got Barret on his first playthrough) then you'll choose other options. Just because she's easiest to get doesn't mean it's the "right and holy" outcome.

You don't really have to work to get any other romances aside from Barret, actually. There are lots of choices throughout the game -- MORE than enough to tip the scale in any direction, and some aren't very clear which person it'll favor. Like I said, I got Tifa the second time through entirely by accident. My brother got Barret the first time entirely by accident! No significant effort is required to get the other dates.

Normally is also a synonym for typically. Translation, folks. English. It's a tricksy tongue indeed. So if we take his quote, "If you play the game typically, you'll get Aerith as a date," well, that has cast a certain doubt on the whole thing, hasn't it?

If I may, may I ask how are the official words of the creators...not true? I wonder why you got Aerith as your first date...Could it be the fact that you were picking normally? The second date is because you decided to increase the level for Tifa by decreasing the default level between Aerith and Cloud.

When you act like a jerkface to Aerith and only then, the default affection level between Cloud and Aerith decreases and Tifa and Cloud's affection increases.

Default means that her date is the one you get without trying or picking the choice to be a jerk to Aerith so you don't get the default date and the optional date with Tifa/Barret/Yuffie.

I got Aerith as a first date because I picked the first option every time. That's what I do when I play through games the first time. First option, sounds good, click it! That's what I do. The second time through, I actually selected. Let me tell ya, it took me a long while to get Yuffie because I eventually realized I was selecting the wrong options to get her to join when you run into her in the wilderness.

And again, no, you don't act like an asshole to Aerith. Really, a lot of it is just Cloud-like, "I dunno" reactions. There's some sarcasm, certainly, but no, it's not like he's punching her in the face or anything.

Aerith: Would you like a flower, Cloud?
Cloud: *punches her in the face* SAY IT TO MAH FACE, BITCH!

LMFAO. ^That is what you're making it sound like. It. Isn't. The. Case. lol

And exactly as you say, Aerith is default because you get it without trying. I picked the first option every time. I didn't try. I didn't select myself. When I looked up a dating guide and did the math, it turns out that by selecting the first option every time, Aerith's score was only a few points higher than Tifa's. A very slight margin. Had I actually selected ONE thing different that may have added or at least not subtracted from Tifa's score, it would've been much different.

So there you have it. It's kinda fishy when you say that you have to go out of the way to get Tifa when I actually came within 3 points of doing so without trying whatsoever.

That's how a lot of people see the fictional scene (though you personally may not believe in that scene...) that the Clotis think Cloud and Tifa had sex under the Highwind.

The differences? What is being discussed at this current moment has been stated by the creators and holds a great significance to the debate going on right now.

The fictional sex scene? Well, its just that...fictional. Never stated by official sources, just backed by fandom. There is even quotes from official sources telling exactly what went down -- conversation -- yet people still want to believe in a scene that doesn't exist?

Justifying a pairing under a make-belief scene backed by nothing? Or justifying a pairing under optional scenes? That doesn't hold up under "scrutiny".

It holds a great significance to one side of the debate. Not all of them. Keep that in mind.

Wait, what fictional sex scene are you talking about? You mean the one with Cloud and Tifa in the stable? Yeah, that was in the original draft but it got cut out. Lots of other things got cut out of the original draft. Like Aerith and Sephiroth being siblings. Yeah, that got cut too. It shouldn't surprise anyone that lots of weird and crazy shit didn't make the final cut.

And excuse me, but what? I'm not backing up any pairing by a cut never-made-it-to-the-storyboard scene. xD I was just asking if that was what was being referred to... it was just a spot of confusion, nothing to get any dander up over.

And it seems we are in agreement. Justifying a pairing under optional scenes doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Since Aerith's date was an optional scene, this would fall under the criteria of not holding up to scrutiny.

Why should it be dropped from the discussion? Its a perfectly acceptable piece of the LTD that can help determine the outcome of the debate. If we throw this out of the discussion, what will be next? I could say the same for the fictional scenes and moments Clotis have seen, yet I won't because it deserves to be discussed to help bring an end -- finally xD -- to the LTD.

I beg to differ. It greatly effects one side over the other.

Well.... I already said why it isn't really relevant to the solid facts of the debate. It creates an atmosphere, sure, for all sides but Barret, but that doesn't make it proof. It's really up to the player's whim, which is clearly divided already. It's like saying that because I chose a cat, that means cat's are better than dogs. Not really a valid claim, is it?

xD You assume the LTD CAN be ended. I'm certain if it did, we'd be facing Judgment Day, lol.

 

[Terra Branford]

I got Aerith as a first date because I picked the first option every time. That's what I do when I play through games the first time. First option, sounds good, click it! That's what I do. The second time through, I actually selected. Let me tell ya, it took me a long while to get Yuffie because I eventually realized I was selecting the wrong options to get her to join when you run into her in the wilderness.

And again, no, you don't act like an asshole to Aerith. Really, a lot of it is just Cloud-like, "I dunno" reactions. There's some sarcasm, certainly, but no, it's not like he's punching her in the face or anything.

Aerith: Would you like a flower, Cloud?
Cloud: *punches her in the face* SAY IT TO MAH FACE, BITCH!

LMFAO. ^That is what you're making it sound like. It. Isn't. The. Case. lol

The options you pick to get Aerith, are default to all characters. You don't have to pick to show romance to Aerith to get Aerith, do you? No, you go through the story being "nice" to who ever and whenever you are shown an option to pick from.

Well of course you don't slap Aerith in the face or anything like that, I was just trying to make a point. There's no need to get angry over it, jeez.

You have to be considerably "different" (since you think "mean" isn't suitable here) in the game to Aerith in order to finally get a date with Tifa. That's all I meant.

And exactly as you say, Aerith is default because you get it without trying. I picked the first option every time. I didn't try. I didn't select myself. When I looked up a dating guide and did the math, it turns out that by selecting the first option every time, Aerith's score was only a few points higher than Tifa's. A very slight margin. Had I actually selected ONE thing different that may have added or at least not subtracted from Tifa's score, it would've been much different.

....

Okay, so you agree. Aerith is default. Do you know what default means? Its in the creator's own words, she's the normal date out of them all. But if you want Tifa, you have to really try and show romance to her.

You don't have to do that to Aerith. :/

So there you have it. It's kinda fishy when you say that you have to go out of the way to get Tifa when I actually came within 3 points of doing so without trying whatsoever.

So you didn't deliberately pick to give Tifa the flower? You didn't deliberately take Tifa's underwear and you didn't deliberately say she's your girlfriend?

I find that hard to believe as you picked to show romance between them. :/

Tifa Date points:

General Guidelines
When you have to select party members, always take Tifa and always leave Aeris aside whenever you have a choice.

When given the choice, always talk to or think about Tifa first, and Aeris last.

Whenever asked about your feelings towards Tifa and Aeris, always express feelings for Tifa (for example, when Aeris asks you if Tifa is your girlfriend, select the answer "Yeah, that's right").


Specific actions
After Jessie's explanation about the train, answer her "Thanks anyway".
The first time you meet Tifa, a lot has to be done correctly to improve you relationship with her: you must have bought a flower from Aeris, and give it to Tifa. Just a little bit later, when Tifa is alone behind the bar, talk to her and ask her to "Give [you] something hard".

A little later too, when she tells you that you left your childhood friend, answer "How can you say that?". Finally, when waking up the next morning and asked how you slept, be the a charmer and answer "Next to you, who wouldn't?".

When you are on the train to blow up the second reactor, don't get caught by the security lockdown.

When Tifa asks you if you can break out, answer her "Leave it to me". The best part is that you can do it multiple times, so with patience you can raise Tifa's affinity to the maximum (this guide considers that you told her this answer at least once, and you didn't answer anything else).
Do not engage in the Wutai sidequest.

It seems very unlikely you didn't try to get Tifa since you have to consciously make the decisions to act romantic toward her.

It holds a great significance to one side of the debate. Not all of them. Keep that in mind.

Wait, what fictional sex scene are you talking about? You mean the one with Cloud and Tifa in the stable? Yeah, that was in the original draft but it got cut out. Lots of other things got cut out of the original draft. Like Aerith and Sephiroth being siblings. Yeah, that got cut too. It shouldn't surprise anyone that lots of weird and crazy shit didn't make the final cut.

What? So if its not significant to the Cloti side, its not...important? I'm sorry, but how does that make sense...?

It doesn't matter if evidence isn't considered significant enough to one side of two sides. If we left what's important to be determined by one side and not the other, what's left to debate, hmm?

But going by that, what you and the Clotis think is significant or important to your "side", isn't really because its not significant to the Clerith's? Right...?

I'm talking about the same fictional sex scene I and Cali quoted and the same fictional sex scene we have been discussing recently. The one where Clotis think Cloud and Tifa did the nasty on sharp pointy rocks. :/

Yes...a lot of crazy stuff was cut, so why do Clotis like to use it? Could we also discuss that Tifa wasn't even suppose to be in the game if Clotis like to use pieces of cut story and scenes that doesn't really exist (I'm talking about the Highwind scene )? If that holds any relevance to the discussion, this Tifa tidbit should. Right?

Why bring up stuff that's been cut out of the story? Obviously it doesn't exist anymore and was decided it was bad for story. Why do Clotis hang onto a draft?

And excuse me, but what? I'm not backing up any pairing by a cut never-made-it-to-the-storyboard scene. xD I was just asking if that was what was being referred to... it was just a spot of confusion, nothing to get any dander up over.

And it seems we are in agreement. Justifying a pairing under optional scenes doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Since Aerith's date was an optional scene, this would fall under the criteria of not holding up to scrutiny.

I wasn't directing it personally at you, but at the Cloti mindset. I thought it was clear, I'm sorry if I had confused you. I hope I cleared myself up.

Yes and no. We are in agreement, but you misunderstand that Aerith's date is default. Its only optional once you force another date out of the situation so you no longer get the default date.

Creators have said it. Unless they come out again saying otherwise, that's how it is and will remain to be so...

Well.... I already said why it isn't really relevant to the solid facts of the debate. It creates an atmosphere, sure, for all sides but Barret, but that doesn't make it proof. It's really up to the player's whim, which is clearly divided already. It's like saying that because I chose a cat, that means cat's are better than dogs. Not really a valid claim, is it?

xD You assume the LTD CAN be ended. I'm certain if it did, we'd be facing Judgment Day, lol.

Wait, may I ask something? Who are you to say it doesn't make "proof"? Its important enough to discuss in the LTD.

It seems like nit-picking to me....

That is an entirely different comparison, Dragon Mage. Please don't play games with me.

Your cat comparison isn't a game created by a certain someone in which he/she clearly stated that certain "thing" was default and more normal than the others. Your comparison is that of personal opinion, but in this case the creators (the people who made the game lol) said it was default and normal.

Your comparison would have been better if it was, for example, God who had picked a cat.

It can be ended. Its the matter of which side will learn and accept? Oh...that and when SE/Nomura will stop trolling people and milking FF7. xD

 

[2of9]

Er, I'd just like to point out that if they give the options to say what you want, then I wouldn't consider choosing an option that's sarcastic/mean as abnormal. I think that's just a silly thing to say (and yes I'm calling Nomura silly for saying it). Basically, being nicer to Aerith is more likely to land you a date with her and being nicer to Tifa is more likely to land you a date with Tifa.

Tbh, I never really saw any canon pairing in FFVII when I played the game. Cloud didn't even seem to have romantic feelings towards either of them. And with all of the dialogue options, it seemed like Square was giving the player a chance to have some of the scenes go the way they wanted (theoretically Cloud could grow closer to whichever girl the player chooses).

As a person who doesn't really care about either pairing, this is how I viewed it.

This is what I'd go for too. It sucks that we don't see emotional faces. If there were emotional faces added in some way, evidence would clearly be there. BUT..FF7 is FF7 and not FF13 graphics lol.