How big of a national issue is education?

[Warbsywoo]

Lately I haven't a ton being thrown about by both major U.S. parties about education, and truly, I feel that that subject is being pushed aside by more 'popular' (or so to speak) issues like gas prices, immigration, and the Iraq war.
Lately I haven't gotten the sense that the nation is doing enough to help relieve rising tuition costs and affording every family the right to government aid to help pay for college.

As an incoming college freshman, my parents and were 'sticker shocked' when we saw the price tag for our local university, UC Riverside in Riverside, California. Though it is a private school, it costs about $25,000 a year. Though comparatively not much in relation to other schools, it is still more than what my $90,000 earning family can afford.
As part of my so-called financial aid package, the university doled out a healthy amount of ----

loans.

No gift money, no university grants, nada. I understand that most universities spend a lot of funds on other things, and giving out more money to those that are in need (or at least in need more) but I also recently found out that state universities across my state of California propose on raising tuition by another $2000 by the next year, and by the same quota the year after that.

Now I don't know if anyone in the education department here has heard, but the economy is falling on hard times, and rising prices in practically everything are hurting families' ability to pay for pressing needs. I think it's outrageous to undermine the foundation of the future of the nation; by making it more difficult for aspiring college students to even pay for their education (in addition to the fact that many students for 5 years, adding more costs).

Anyone else feel the same way I do?
Anyone not?

Opinions please.

 

[Soul Saver]

Agreed. We have tuition fees of about £3000 a year here, which are usually covered by student loans. Expensive enough. Damn, how are you supposed to pay back $25000 odd a year?
It is very important for the future of a nation that students are able to afford going to university, and do not have to pay back massive loans. It is tragic that university fees are so expensive in the US. It can exclude even middle-class students. Loans? Hah. Still a LOT of money to pay back.

 

[Deleted member 176]

Pfft, don't be silly. Education isn't important when you can just give people guns and invade middle eastern countries!!!

Everyone knows all the smart countries are spending all their money on guns and not the future!!!

For the record, US military budget - $440billion, Education budget - $67 billion (only 10 of which is mandatory, the rest is discretionary)

Note to any other economic powerhouses - if you spent 8 times more on blowing shit up, than teaching your kids how to be smart, you're economy will DIE. Someone should tell McCain ^.^

EDIT: few more interesting stats./ Military spending has been increasing, education spending has been decreasing (quite significantly, an estimated 10 billion between 2007-2008. Take your already shitty budget and cut it by 15%, genius!)

Best part is, someone look at the figures and realised, oh shit, we're spending a shitload more than we're making!, what do we blame it on!? Wait, ourselves for starting wars? pfft, can't do that! I know, lets blame it on our healthcare and social security!! So guess what, americas (already 3rd-worldesque) Healthcare is going to get cut even more. Social security is next on the "big fuckin axe" agenda ^.^

 

[Donald Trump]

Note to any other economic powerhouses - if you spent 8 times more on blowing shit up, than teaching your kids how to be smart, you're economy will DIE. Someone should tell McCain ^.^

Not really, that 440 billion creates a lot of jobs.
It doesn't exactly create a lot of growth, but most economically developed countries' GDP doesn't frow that much.
Instead of creating better TVs and commercial goods, America creates new ways to kill. Which is very profitable, Japan and other countries purchase this new technology and are grateful.

But a ratio of just over 110: 17 is ridiculous. Clearly more money should be spent on education.

I also recently found out that state universities across my state of California propose on raising tuition by another $2000 by the next year, and by the same quota the year after that.

That's not unusual, a lot of businesses and governments raise their prices by the CPI.

 

[Soul Saver]

Oh, come on. Whereas the UK healthcare budget is increasing to twice, even three times that, a huge superpower is cutting its budget? A load of tripe. The US has the world's biggest military budget by far. It doesn't need such a huge military now that the Soviet Union has fallen. To defend itself against its enemies? Hah. World police, more like. It could do with 200,000 fewer soldiers, half its carrier fleet, a reduction in aircraft, etc. It's insane. To increase its spending? I thought that more high-tech weapons and armour, etc, were going to be introduced. Those would act as further force multipliers, and reduce the amount of soldiers and aircraft the US military really needs.

Don't get me wrong, armed forces are very important, and the UK probably needs to spend £5-10 billion more a year on its own, to ensure that it is properly equipped and supplied, and to add some more ships and aircraft to its fleet. Or perhaps the proposed EU military force will amount to something. However, the UK also needs to rethink its budget for other things. Not spending enough on scientific research, and there needs to be a slight increase in NHS funding. We have enough money, it's just not going to the right places.

 

[Deleted member 176]

Placebo, those jobs are good for the american PEOPLE short term, but horrible for the american economy. America doesn't export a whole lot of anything military to anyone. Yes it provides some jobs for americans, but the amount it contributes to the GDP/NFP is *nothing* compared to the drain.

A good economy is very reliant on having a large export market and a low import market. On controlled spending and minimised borrowing. The US economy just now is clinging on to China for dear life. If the chinese were to remove their support, the US would go into the worst recession in its history, they have been keeping you guys afloat for a LONG time now. You want to know why the US is so gun-shy about the tibet issue? thats why right there

Also bear in mind that the military do NOT build their own equpiment - the equipment you say they sell to japan etc. That is outsourced to MANUFACTURING companies. Often international companies and not US companies (For instance, a lot of US Aircraft Carrier parts are manufactured in the UK) Seriously. Militaries just plain eat money, they are a massive drain on any economy, check your history books for proof.

It's why no empire could afford to stop conquering - it had to pay its massive army

 

[Donald Trump]

I'm not saying I'm agreeing with it, I'm just representing the other side.

Placebo, those jobs are good for the american PEOPLE short term, but horrible for the american economy. America doesn't export a whole lot of anything military to anyone. Yes it provides some jobs for americans, but the amount it contributes to the GDP/NFP is *nothing* compared to the drain.

It's hardly short term, it has been going since 1939. If they were to stop spending on the military then yes it would be negative. However it's unlikely, there's NSC-68, and America loves having a big army.

A good economy is very reliant on having a large export market and a low import market. On controlled spending and minimised borrowing

That depends, having a trade deficit is not bad. As long as the debt is used to fund growth then it's great.
It's impossible to sustain high exports, as exporting pushes the value of the american dollar up, which increases imports because they are cheaper and reduces exports as they are more expensive.
Also a deficit always inevitably disappears due to market forces.

The US economy just now is clinging on to China for dear life. If the chinese were to remove their support, the US would go into the worst recession in its history, they have been keeping you guys afloat for a LONG time now. You want to know why the US is so gun-shy about the tibet issue? thats why right there

America has lots of manufacturing firms in China due to Deng Xiaoping's market zones. China relies on America as well. China is the future, but America still has the world's most powerful economy.

Also bear in mind that the military do NOT build their own equpiment - the equipment you say they sell to japan etc. That is outsourced to MANUFACTURING companies. Often international companies and not US companies (For instance, a lot of US Aircraft Carrier parts are manufactured in the UK) Seriously. Militaries just plain eat money, they are a massive drain on any economy, check your history books for proof

It's not just manufacturing though, it's technology, most of the airforces in the world(except any connected to the Russians) have F-16 planes. When America develops a SDI(starwars defence system) if they decide to let some countries buy it, the amount of money made will be huge.

I totally agree that America needs to spend more on education, but spending lots on the military is not such a bad thing.

 

[Deleted member 176]

Actually, no major europeon country uses F-16s. The Russians and chinese use MiGs and YU's, Europe uses the Rafales and eurofighter typhoons. The middle east is split between Migs and f16s sure, but thats about the extent of it.

Your claims are, eh, specious at best. The american economy is *horrible* just now, it's certainly not the strongest in the world. Not by quite a long way. Also remember, just because an industry provides jobs does NOT make it good for the economy - look at any country with a lot of beaurocrats. Manufacturing is still where the most money is to be made.

America has been borrowing heavily for a long time now and it has NOT been used to boost growth, thats the issue.

Can i please request you do some time studying economic indicators and the global Forex market? You have demonstrated very clearly that your understanding of the global econmy is poor at best.

Could you also try backing your posts up in future, isntead of stating your opinion as fact? "being in trade defecit is great" is, well, horseshit. Being in a trade defecit is a disadvantage in any situation, and it's usually a last resort. You go into trade deficit when your country has no other choice but to do so to *attempt* to stimulate growth.

Just because America loves having a big army politically, does NOT have *anything* to do with econmics.

As far as the american dollar going up - that would be a good thing, because right now it is TERRIBLE. I mean we're talking half the value of the GBP/EUR. *HALF*

Also, please back up your claims that selling technology/military equipment to other countries makes any sort of dent in the American economy, so far you've just said "Oh, those guys use F-16s, so it must make us rich!" Sorry, but just because you think, oh that must make us lots of money! Doesn't make it true Figures please.

 

[Contra Fates]

I'm not going to argue against the fact that the amount of money spent on military-issues is outrageous, because, it is. But, the topic of this thread is about education, and it's importance, not where all of the government's money is going, instead of to education.

The only thing I'm going to mention about the military, is the fact that it covers all college costs for it's soldiers that wish for an education later on. Of course, that money still doesn't justify the amount of money being spent on these fruitless wars, but for a lot of people that are struggling with the costs of paying for college, joining the military isn't always such a bad alternative. My father did that, because there was no way he could afford to go to college with what his family made, and my father didn't even have to go to combat, he did a lot of accounting and instructing work when he was in the army.

Now, to get back on track, education is extremely important. Although there isn't a lot of federal spending on education, the state governments actually make up for that in the US. Now, this may not be true for all states, but I do know that Florida, for one, relies on the profit from The Lottery in order to fund education. I've always thought that The Lottery was a brilliant idea for the government to make a lot of money in a fair manner, considering the fact that no one is forced to buy lottery tickets, and all of the money they spend goes to government funding. From the numbers I've seen, the Lottery has contributed more than 18 billion dollars to Florida education, which is a pretty nice amount from a gambling program.

I also know that in my state, we have 'Bright Futures Scholarships,' which pay for virtually all of college so long as you make the grades, and you don't have to pay anything back. Although, state scholarships do not cover private institutions. It seems that going to private school, is generally for privileged kids, or those who were fortunate enough to receive other scholarships. For those content with going to college in community colleges or state-run universities, it's usually made possible by those state-issued scholarships.

I know it sounds very harsh for me to say 'if you're not wealthy, you're not going to a private college,' but unfortunately, there is some truth to that. Private institutions do not receive state funding, so they suck out as much money as possible from their students. If you don't have the money to attend a private college, your best course of action is to apply for lots and lots of scholarships. Sites such as fastweb.org, offer hundreds and hundreds of local, and national scholarships that offer up a lot of money. Also, if you check with local scholarships [through your school's guidance counselors], they will likely have lists and applications for scholarship grants.

I see a lot of programs still in existence for helping those who want a better education, but the truth of the matter is: you have to go for it on your own. I was chosen for a several-thousand dollar scholarship, and I could have gotten it, if I wasn't too lazy and had filled out the application in it's entirety. But, I just relied on the funding from Bright Futures, and didn't even bother with it. I regret it now, because extra funding for college is always great, but, there's no use kicking myself over it now.

The point is, education is vastly important, and to my knowledge, within The United States [because I'm not familiar with the situation in order nations], there are still a lot of programs and funding given to college-bound students who put an effort into their education.

 

[Donald Trump]

Actually, no major europeon country uses F-16s. The Russians and chinese use MiGs and YU's, Europe uses the Rafales and eurofighter typhoons. The middle east is split between Migs and f16s sure, but thats about the extent of it.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f16/
Tl;dr : F-16 is the most used fighter plane in the world.

Your claims are, eh, specious at best. The american economy is *horrible* just now, it's certainly not the strongest in the world. Not by quite a long way. Also remember, just because an industry provides jobs does NOT make it good for the economy - look at any country with a lot of beaurocrats. Manufacturing is still where the most money is to be made.

Agreed. Though trying to blaim that on the military would be moronic. But due to America's almost free market economy, it has a cyclical nature and has little government intervention. Just because it's not too strong right now doesn't mean it is weak. Surely you aren't judging just on current figures?

Could you also try backing your posts up in future, isntead of stating your opinion as fact? "being in trade defecit is great" is, well, horseshit. Being in a trade defecit is a disadvantage in any situation, and it's usually a last resort. You go into trade deficit when your country has no other choice but to do so to *attempt* to stimulate growth.

Whilst my claims may be, according to you specious, your knowledge is clearly egregious. Tell me which country has had the strongest economy the last ten years? No wait. I'll tell you, America, hmmm, you don't think it has had a continual trade deficit did you? If your answer was yes, consider yourself correct, and give yourself a pat on the back.
You want figures, look yourself.
And the 1930s what about that decade? Depression and 9 trade surpluses.
Along with your point about manufacturing, you show your superficial knowledge of economics.
I'll give you a real life example.
Manhattan is a rich place, and the vast majority of the jobs are in the service sector. Ergo manufacturing doesn't pay all that well. Indonesia and other countries manufacture billions of dollars worth of goods and yet they are still poor.

As far as the american dollar going up - that would be a good thing, because right now it is TERRIBLE. I mean we're talking half the value of the GBP/EUR.

Try not to contradict yourself, having a high dollar is bad for exports. So by the dollar increasing the trade deficit will increase. But wait, isn't that a bad thing?
But you can't have both. Therefore your claims fail.

Lets go back to the great depression shall we. Do you know what got America out of that? The war, it created so many jobs, the same with the military.

Oh and if you are going to complain about me not using facts, then please don't be so hypocritical as to not provide any yourself.

 

[Erythritol]

Actually, no major europeon country uses F-16s. The Russians and chinese use MiGs and YU's, Europe uses the Rafales and eurofighter typhoons. The middle east is split between Migs and f16s sure, but thats about the extent of it.

Your claims are, eh, specious at best. The american economy is *horrible* just now, it's certainly not the strongest in the world. Not by quite a long way. Also remember, just because an industry provides jobs does NOT make it good for the economy - look at any country with a lot of beaurocrats. Manufacturing is still where the most money is to be made.

America has been borrowing heavily for a long time now and it has NOT been used to boost growth, thats the issue.

Can i please request you do some time studying economic indicators and the global Forex market? You have demonstrated very clearly that your understanding of the global econmy is poor at best.

Could you also try backing your posts up in future, isntead of stating your opinion as fact? "being in trade defecit is great" is, well, horseshit. Being in a trade defecit is a disadvantage in any situation, and it's usually a last resort. You go into trade deficit when your country has no other choice but to do so to *attempt* to stimulate growth.

Just because America loves having a big army politically, does NOT have *anything* to do with econmics.

As far as the american dollar going up - that would be a good thing, because right now it is TERRIBLE. I mean we're talking half the value of the GBP/EUR. *HALF*

Also, please back up your claims that selling technology/military equipment to other countries makes any sort of dent in the American economy, so far you've just said "Oh, those guys use F-16s, so it must make us rich!" Sorry, but just because you think, oh that must make us lots of money! Doesn't make it true Figures please.

America is still the largest, most powerful economy in the world. Followed by Japan and then Germany. Figure for you: The United States comprises 21% of the global economy.

And while economics is CERTAINLY not my best subject, I am taking an international economics class, and from what I've learned, I'm going to have to side with Placebo here. In fact, from what you're saying, it doesn't really seem like YOU have a very good grasp on global economics.

Trade deficits are not necessarily bad, as Placebo said. A trade deficit is defined as when a country's imports exceed its exports. In 2004, the United States was the world's second largest exporter, the world's largest importer, and had the world's largest trade deficit. Running a trade deficit isn't a "last resort" or an attempt to stimulate growth. While the United States is the biggest net debtor, as long as these borrowed funds contribute to a productive economy, it's not a bad thing. If you think this is just my opinion, I could point you towards the International Economics book from which it came.

Yes, the American economy is going through a recession right now. That doesn't mean that the economy is doomed forever. There are economic booms and recessions. That is how the economy works. You do realize there was a period in the 1970s when the Canadian dollar was valued above the American dollar, right? Eventually the value of the American dollar rose once more. Now, I'm am certainly not an economic analyst, but in my opinion, I think that it is naive to believe this recession is due to just the Iraq War. There are many factors, one being that for a looong time, real estate was way overvalued. It had to come down eventually, and hey, it finally did!

But back on topic, my university costs WAY more than that, but I can't really complain, because it's a private school. I do believe that the government doesn't spend enough on education, which is really a shame. I was extremely fortunate in that I went to a really good public high school with amazing materials and resources. This is probably because taxes in my area are staggering

 

[Deleted member 176]

Just a few things here; First of all, as the lin kyou showed stated, only about 2000 F-16s have been sold. More than half of the F-16s are used by the USAF. As i said, the vast majority of those planes go to certain middle eastern countries. If you compared all the MiGs with all of the Falcon aircraft, i am pretty sure the MiGs would come out as the most popular. Just ecause the F16 is the most popular *single* aircraft, doesn't say a whole lot

Oh and i notice you STILL haven't provided any figures as to how much money military equipment sales makes the US each year. I'll be kind and say you can miss out the long term costs of supplying your current enemies with the means to kill your soldiers

Secondly, I base my economic analysis on the strength of the Forex Market. This is something most people completely fail to take into account, even though it changes economies to the tune of tens of billions of dollars every single day.

Thirdly, If we were to remove americas trade deficit from its position as market leader, it would actually fall *behind* other countries. The only reason it hasn't is because this trade deficit is keeping it there. The best example i can give in laymans terms is this: Person A has $1000 in his bank account. Person B has $700 in his bank account, but also has a credit limit of $500. This means that is Person A spends all of his money, he only gets $1000 worth of goods, wheras person B gets $1200 worth of goods, but now has a substantial debt to pay. This means that, realistically, Person A is in a better financial position, even if Person B can say "ah, but i have $200 more stock then A". That stock is only useful if it is used properly.

By no means am i saying the economy is doomed forever, nor am i saying americas ridiculous military spending is the cause of this recession. (For the record, unless a country is completely self-sustainable, just giving people jobs which don't contribute (by bringing new money into the country) Is not a sustainable strategy for economic growth.

Lastly, the best way to get yourself out of a recession is to teach your people new and useful skills, ideally before the rest of the world. By abandoning education in favour of Military spending, the US is failing in its obligation to do this to the extent that it should. You could give every person in america a government (Military) Job, and in one generation you would have no money at all. Anyone who thinks that giving people government money to do a job which brings no money back in, is the way to boost an economy, is foolish. At best it results in a small upturn in consumer spending, but this just leads to higher prices, which leads to higher credit limits, which leads to the inevitable credit bubble bursting.

There is a very good reason that economic indicators such as NFP (non-farm employment) do not include government jobs - those jobs are not a good indicator of a countries economic health.

For those interested, americas NFP has been falling. (I.E America is NOT attracting industries which will create jobs as fast as it has to.)

To tie all of this back into education...

The american budget does not do nearly enough to encourage the education of its citizens in an affordable manner. Over a long period of time this will have a negative effect on its economy, as other countries maintain sustained growth into important new industries (i.e China) Americas poor education system will come back to bite it in the ass.

 

[Contra Fates]

To tie all of this back into education...

The american budget does not do nearly enough to encourage the education of its citizens in an affordable manner. Over a long period of time this will have a negative effect on its economy, as other countries maintain sustained growth into important new industries (i.e China) Americas poor education system will come back to bite it in the ass.

Since I'm only concerned with talking about the education issue, I'm only going to respond to this. I would have to disagree with this statement. There is absolutely no cost, for children in the United States to attend public schooling. For those who might mention: "well what about food, uniforms, class payments, etc?" Schools offer forms for children, so that they can have free lunches, and so they can be exempt from making any payments, if their parents can not afford it.

As I've mentioned earlier, there are many programs run by the -STATE- governments, not by Federal, that take care of education. In Florida [I'm not sure if other states have followed suit], they have enacted a law prohibiting large class sizes. In elementary school, the class sizes are limited to 18, 22 in middle school, and 25 in high school. This will increase the quality of education for students, since they will be given more attention and focus from their teachers. For my grade-school career, I've been in classes with 30-40 students, and in Math classes, my struggling subject, I completely gave up on trying to have my teacher explain things further. Unfortunately, this law has caused some problems, such as forcing schools to cut certain extra-curricular programs. But, more schools are being built in order to accommodate the need for more classrooms. Though it may not have been a perfect idea, Florida state government is making attempts to better their education in the state.

As for other ways the US has still been supporting education, you can read my earlier post.

As for future posters: If your post does not relate to the original topic, being education, please refrain from posting.

 

[Deleted member 176]

I think part of the problem is that the public schooling system is generally poor (There is little incentive for someone who is successful in their field to go into public school teaching. If they wish to teach, private schools offer a significantly larger wage, and in general, pupils who are more willing to learn (though that is by *no* means exact, or even completely accurate. Just a broad statement that if you took every private school and every public school and compared the disciplinary records... well you know)

Another part of the issue is that further education is *very* expensive in the US, other countries (i.e UK) Offer grants and even complete tuition paying for most college and even some university students. In addition the cost of tuition is still significantly lower than the US without these.

Lastly, thanks to the "credit crunch" and a lack of policy changing in the US government, the number of families which wualify for aid, and the number who now need it, are significantly different.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Since I'm only concerned with talking about the education issue, I'm only going to respond to this. I would have to disagree with this statement. There is absolutely no cost, for children in the United States to attend public schooling. For those who might mention: "well what about food, uniforms, class payments, etc?" Schools offer forms for children, so that they can have free lunches, and so they can be exempt from making any payments, if their parents can not afford it.

As I've mentioned earlier, there are many programs run by the -STATE- governments, not by Federal, that take care of education. In Florida [I'm not sure if other states have followed suit], they have enacted a law prohibiting large class sizes. In elementary school, the class sizes are limited to 18, 22 in middle school, and 25 in high school. This will increase the quality of education for students, since they will be given more attention and focus from their teachers. For my grade-school career, I've been in classes with 30-40 students, and in Math classes, my struggling subject, I completely gave up on trying to have my teacher explain things further. Unfortunately, this law has caused some problems, such as forcing schools to cut certain extra-curricular programs. But, more schools are being built in order to accommodate the need for more classrooms. Though it may not have been a perfect idea, Florida state government is making attempts to better their education in the state.

As for other ways the US has still been supporting education, you can read my earlier post.

As for future posters: If your post does not relate to the original topic, being education, please refrain from posting.

I agree Contra, but just want to add a few things.

Public School isn't free, it costs nothing to go to Public School, it is however paid for by tax-payers, because after-all nothing is free .

Now the issue here is, why don't kids who go to Public School do as well? Well for one, the quality of the education isn't very good, this isn't a money issue, its a teacher issue. I'm not saying teachers in Public School suck, but some of the best teachers work in Private School because of the Environment, and the pays better. These kids also need an incentive to do good, I have a friend named Percy whos currently in College. He once told me his Basketball Coach, and the school didn't care about his academics(where he was failing math & english), they only cared about him making it to practice & playing. My freshman year of high school I was kicked off my school team for having a failing grade in math, ahhhh I HATE MATH!

The american budget does not do nearly enough to encourage the education of its citizens in an affordable manner. Over a long period of time this will have a negative effect on its economy, as other countries maintain sustained growth into important new industries (i.e China) Americas poor education system will come back to bite it in the ass.

I think this might help Decado.

Which is why I propose we bring back school-vouchers. School Vouchers proved that a kid who did poorly in Public School did much better when he went to Private School. But some corrupt politicians made up some fake crap about them, and as such I believe none have been issued since. I feel some kids are forced to go to Public School because of money, and with that said Public Schools need to have a real big incentive to do good. The question which I think somebody will bring up is "what about those kids who also do good but not as good as Mr. X", and you could arguably claim this doesn't solve the "you shouldn't be forced to go to a certain school" argument. But I do think it would help even a little.

In Florida a few years ago, Jeb Bush I think took away the school boundary thing, which previously I think only allowed kids who lived in a certain area to only be allowed to go to schools in their area. This has helped for the better and worse.

In the end something must be done to ensure everyone gets a good education, the question is what do we do? Currently Public Schools aren't the best place to go for an education, and I dont think increasing their fund will help much. Education is an important national issue, but isn't a big problem.

- Kuja