Lack of Education

[Casanova]

Well this thread got heated pretty fast. I hoped that I would have been able to make my point clearer before people started making assumptions of my thoughts on Americans.

This thread is my little dig at Derek, nothing more and nothing less. I mean him no offence and he knows it.

The reason why I said "You Americans are so geographically challenged." is partly because it fitted the mood of the conversation and partly because I find it amusing that Americans notoriously fail at world Geography. Look at the facts.

It's not my fault your government decides to stop teaching you geography after 7th grade, afterall.

That being said I mean no one any offence, but I won't apologise for saying it either. Though I am sorry some of you took it so seriously.

I was tired when I posted the link to the video and I really couldn't be arsed to explain why I posted that particular link. I know not all Americans are stupid, I'm not nearly ignorant enough to make generalisations that wild. I just find it amusing.

 

[Rockman X]

It's not my fault your government decides to stop teaching you geography after 7th grade, afterall.

Public edumucashun does fail here, geography is usually just taught in elementary and middle school, then forgotten. But if I were you, I wouldn't be so hasty to fault Americans for not knowing their geography. I found an article on the New York Times's website, it talks about how Americans suck at geography, and then shows some interesting statistics of a survey conducted by the National Geographic Society.

The survey, commissioned by the geographic society, tested 10,820 adults in Canada, France, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Sweden, the United Kingdom, the United States and west Germany how Countries Scored of a possible score of 16 points, American adults averaged 8.6, about on a par with British adults, who scored an average of 8.5 points, the findings showed. Canadian adults scored 9.2. Americans in the 18-to-24-year group averaged 6.9 points, the lowest score of all youths tested and of all other age groups in the United States. Swedes tested the best, scoring 11.6 points, and Germans averaged second best, scoring 11.2 points.

So it's not all Americans who are geographically challenged, just the younger generations because the public education system is going downhill, and that's not our fault. It's because idiots in government think up rules and ideas for the public education system and think it'll work, when they don't even have the slightest clue because they put their children in private schools. Kinda like George Bush's stupid No Child Left Behind Act. He had good intentions with it, and the idea of it sounds nice, but it's messed up our schools SO badly.

 

[Soul Saver]

Agreed.

Knowing the location of continents and countries is basic geography. It's as simple as showing kids globes, and asking them to pinpoint things on a map. It's so easy that there's no excuse, whether the public education system is run by a bunch of monkeys and insightless bureaucrats, or not.

 

[Fusilli]

My friend thought that Singapore was in Spain, and El Salvador in Africa.

Although I used to think that Carlisle was in Scotland but that's not nearly as bad, in my defence we used to drive past it all the time and I didn't think we had crossed the border yet...

 

[Rockman X]

It's as simple as showing kids globes, and asking them to pinpoint things on a map. It's so easy that there's no excuse, whether the public education system is run by a bunch of monkeys and insightless bureaucrats, or not.

Right. I seriously doubt that after a long day of work, mommy or daddy are going to pull out a globe or map and point countries out to their child. They're gonna be tired, likely ask the child how school went, and try to give themselves a little "me" time before they go to bed.

My dad is gone 12 hours a day. He leaves at 4:30 in the morning to beat the rush hour traffic to work, then gets home at 4:30 or 5 when there's nothing extra to do at the office. He then has dinner, watches the news, and does a few things online before going to bed at around 9 or 9:30. My mom teaches special ed. kids, so about 90% of her time spent at home is doing nothing but grading papers and making lesson plans.

Maybe next time you decide to call something simple, you should actually take into account how real life works.

 

[Soul Saver]

Right. I seriously doubt that after a long day of work, mommy or daddy are going to pull out a globe or map and point countries out to their child. They're gonna be tired, likely ask the child how school went, and try to give themselves a little "me" time before they go to bed.

My dad is gone 12 hours a day. He leaves at 4:30 in the morning to beat the rush hour traffic to work, then gets home at 4:30 or 5 when there's nothing extra to do at the office. He then has dinner, watches the news, and does a few things online before going to bed at around 9 or 9:30. My mom teaches special ed. kids, so about 90% of her time spent at home is doing nothing but grading papers and making lesson plans.

Maybe next time you decide to call something simple, you should actually take into account how real life works.

I didn't even mention parents... did I? Of course I know how real life works, you're just getting argumentative. Quite frankly, if parents are busy almost 24/7, then there's something amiss. Parents have gotta have some time for their kids.
My dad, who is a single parent, 66, and works 12 hour night shifts 3-4 days a week, can still find time during work days to help my sister with homework, etc. It's simple for both the education system and parents to ensure that kids can pinpoint most countries on a map. Put up posters, give kids educational books, encourage them to read in general. Absolutely no excuse for schools that average intelligence kids don't know alot of important basic facts by the end of primary school.

 

[Rockman X]

Aye, true, there are weekends and holidays and such.

Dunno about encouraging kids to read though...they don't learn it very well in school and teaching it to your children in your spare time is a bit more of an undertaking than teaching them geography.

But I also think lack of geographical knowledge stems from America's self-importance. Most countries learn English as a second language, immigrants pour into our country on a daily basis for a chance at a better life, college grads (and even just highschool grads) have plenty of job opportunities, etc. With things like that going on, it sort of instills the idea (be it active or subconscious) that our country is super important and all that anyone ever needs, so there's really not much need to know about other places.

 

[Miss Valentine]

That's classified information. You did not hear anything about Burmecia.

WHY NOOOTTT?!?!?!

And now I feel even more thick for .... oh, you get my point.

It's ok, we all have our moments *pats Dave on the head*

To add to the debate, so many parents have so many different ideas about what to teach or not teach their kids, Geography isn't always a priority (ZOMG ENGLISH N MATH!!!!) And just pulling out a map or globe doesn't always work either (kids must look at it and think wtf)

You can't really blame general parenting for lack of Geog skills because everyone has their different way. What worries me is that they go to school thinking Canada is in Leeds and the teachers don't bother to set them straight. Too busy with English and maths to bother with something like Geog. It pisses me off actually, because kids could probably learn better English by doing Geog or history projects if the teachers could be bothered to incorporate them, well at Primary level anyway

Funny how they spend so much time drilling English, but it doesn't go in does it?

But anyway, debate is for debate. Now I must find a map and see whereabouts Midgar is, I heard it's in Mexico somewhere.....

 

[Soul Saver]

Dunno about encouraging kids to read though...they don't learn it very well in school and teaching it to your children in your spare time is a bit more of an undertaking than teaching them geography.

But I also think lack of geographical knowledge stems from America's self-importance. Most countries learn English as a second language, immigrants pour into our country on a daily basis for a chance at a better life, college grads (and even just highschool grads) have plenty of job opportunities, etc. With things like that going on, it sort of instills the idea (be it active or subconscious) that our country is super important and all that anyone ever needs, so there's really not much need to know about other places.

It should be a joint effort, I think. Too many kids don't start reading early enough.

True, America is a superpower, though where would it be without its trading partners? They are just as important as the US, in that respect, and Geography has real applications in many subjects and issues. You aren't gonna get very far if you can't pinpoint France, Germany, Brazil, etc, on a world map, unless you want to whore yourself out for "reality" TV.

 

[Rockman X]

You can't really blame general parenting for lack of Geog skills because everyone has their different way. What worries me is that they go to school thinking Canada is in Leeds and the teachers don't bother to set them straight. Too busy with English and maths to bother with something like Geog. It pisses me off actually, because kids could probably learn better English by doing Geog or history projects if the teachers could be bothered to incorporate them, well at Primary level anyway

Well in my honest opinion, I think English and math are alot more important than being able to pinpoint Armenia on the map. Reading is essential, studying literature expands one's views and vocabulary, and math is fairly important when it comes to money matters. How many instances are you going to run into where you desperately need to find a country on the globe? Not many.

Yes, it's kind of pathetic that people are so damn ignorant in geography...but it's not something that's going to hinder your chances at getting a job, or help you do your taxes.

Funny how they spend so much time drilling English, but it doesn't go in does it?

That would be because teachers are idiots and use the wrong methods. They use crap like sight reading, so kids learn to read by seeing the first and last letters of the word and GUESSING at the word, rather than being taught phonics and root words.

But anyway, debate is for debate. Now I must find a map and see whereabouts Midgar is, I heard it's in Mexico somewhere.....

This really should be in the debate section Oh and you're wrong, Midgar is in Suriname.

 

[Bambi]

That would be because teachers are idiots and use the wrong methods. They use crap like sight reading, so kids learn to read by seeing the first and last letters of the word and GUESSING at the word, rather than being taught phonics and root words.

What on EARTH is that when it's at home More to the point how the hell do they teach them to read like that

 

[Miss Valentine]

Well in my honest opinion, I think English and math are alot more important than being able to pinpoint Armenia on the map. Reading is essential, studying literature expands one's views and vocabulary, and math is fairly important when it comes to money matters. How many instances are you going to run into where you desperately need to find a country on the globe? Not many.

Point taken, but I think there is room for cross-over of projects. It might make learning literature more fun if some form of geog is thrown in here and there, as is usually the case with history. Teachers underestimate how much kids actually get out of their projects, and how much they might actually want some background such as where certain countries or cities which appear in the literature are on the map. Same with maths- put some colour into the problem solving. Kids might actually want to do the maths if their imagination is stirred.

Yes, it's kind of pathetic that people are so damn ignorant in geography...but it's not something that's going to hinder your chances at getting a job, or help you do your taxes.

True that, but it does help when you're in such a conversation and don't want to look stupid

That would be because teachers are idiots and use the wrong methods. They use crap like sight reading, so kids learn to read by seeing the first and last letters of the word and GUESSING at the word, rather than being taught phonics and root words.

What on EARTH is that when it's at home More to the point how the hell do they teach them to read like that

Absolutely. Worse still, when parents try to teach them at home in a more intelligent way, the teacher kick off. My kid just turned 3 and he already knows his alphabet, both in capital letters and small, but if he starts chanting A B C at school he'll get his ear chewed off "ZO NO YOUS DON'T DO a b c LIEK EVERYONE ELSE!!! It dumbs down bright kids if they have to be kept at everyone else's level, just for convenience of the teacher, and it sucks. Teachers just refuse to accept that their methods aren't right for every child

This really should be in the debate section Oh and you're wrong, Midgar is in Suriname.

NOOOOOEEES!!! *runs off to find Suriname on the map*

 

[Soul Saver]

^ Agreed.

I was several steps ahead of other kids in primary school, as I read frequently and taught myself alot more. I became frustrated, and hated school because I felt restricted. However, putting smarter kids in better classes for the same year may make less advanced kids feel demotivated and stupid.

 

[Donald Trump]

Suriname is a Banana Republic at the top of South America. Reading helps with geography.
Although I didn't properly know my alphabet until I was eight

 

[Erythritol]

*Sigh*

I.....

I'm one of the Americans who is terrible at geography. I'm getting better, I really am, but I used to fail so hard at it. I once got a 38 on a geography quiz. I mean, I know where all the major countries are, but I have trouble pinpointing the exact locations of the more obscure ones. *Runs off weeping*

And Canada being better is a lie

 

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

My friend thought that Singapore was in Spain, and El Salvador in Africa.

Although I used to think that Carlisle was in Scotland but that's not nearly as bad, in my defence we used to drive past it all the time and I didn't think we had crossed the border yet...

To be fair, it's ten minutes in.

I used to think Johannesberg was in Sweden. I rationalised it with the fact that Johan is a Scandanavian name.

 

[Rockman X]

Point taken, but I think there is room for cross-over of projects. It might make learning literature more fun if some form of geog is thrown in here and there, as is usually the case with history. Teachers underestimate how much kids actually get out of their projects, and how much they might actually want some background such as where certain countries or cities which appear in the literature are on the map. Same with maths- put some colour into the problem solving. Kids might actually want to do the maths if their imagination is stirred.

Aye, I'm sure there are plenty of ways to relate things. Like say, in literature or something, a teacher could pull out a map and point to the location of the story's setting. Similarly, vocabulary should be looked up too. When I was little and my mom was teaching me to read, if I came across a word I didn't know she first told me to try to figure it out from the context of the sentence. If the word was too obscure for me to do that, she'd pull out a dictionary and I'd look it up. Nobody does that today. Hell, if you told a kid to figure out the context of the sentence there's a good chance they wouldn't know what context meant

Absolutely. Worse still, when parents try to teach them at home in a more intelligent way, the teacher kick off. My kid just turned 3 and he already knows his alphabet, both in capital letters and small, but if he starts chanting A B C at school he'll get his ear chewed off "ZO NO YOUS DON'T DO a b c LIEK EVERYONE ELSE!!! It dumbs down bright kids if they have to be kept at everyone else's level, just for convenience of the teacher, and it sucks. Teachers just refuse to accept that their methods aren't right for every child

Ah, but therein lies the beauty of the No Child Left Behind Act (you do live in America right? I don't know, but what you described sounds like NCLB). In trying to keep everyone at grade level and maintain status quo, it prevents the smarter kids from advancing like they need to, thus stunting their growth and making them stagnate in mediocrity.

*Sigh*

I.....

I'm one of the Americans who is terrible at geography. I'm getting better, I really am, but I used to fail so hard at it. I once got a 38 on a geography quiz. I mean, I know where all the major countries are, but I have trouble pinpointing the exact locations of the more obscure ones. *Runs off weeping*

And Canada being better is a lie

YOU SUCK

What're you bawwing about a 38 for anyway? In algebra 2 in highschool, me and my friends would take bets on how low my quizzes and tests were, and my final class grade was a 45. And in second semester of college, I made a 0 on my math exam. My failure is the stuff of legends

 

[Davey Gaga]

I think what we can all take from this thread is that John needs to filter out things he's quoting and posting, from now on.

Well in my honest opinion, I think English and math are alot more important than being able to pinpoint Armenia on the map. Reading is essential, studying literature expands one's views and vocabulary, and math is fairly important when it comes to money matters.

Just a point. School's views annoy me about these subjects. I can clearly spell and construct fully developed sentences and yet I've been forced to take English this year. Strangely, I've learned very little of my English skills from and English classroom - I learned more from my French teacher about the English language than anyone else. In English, I think the last time we had a lesson on the actual language part of English was a good five years ago. It's all down to reading books and analysing themes and characters and shit. Real life? "Show how the writer effectively conveys the idea of ... through ..." will almost never apply to me.

As for maths, anything passed armithmatic is useless to anyone who doesn't want to me a maths teacher. I once asked my maths teacher "why would we EVER use this?" in reference to a particular topic. She said "to pass your exams." I asked, "and then?" She said "to go to University." I asked, "to do what?" She said, "to qualify as a maths teacher."

It's a vicious cycle.

I just hope Angelus doesn't catch my post here.

 

[Soul Saver]

I'm not very familiar with the NCLB act, but it does seem very impractical, and much like alot of the standard education initiatives and reforms here.

In the UK, Nu Labour preaches parent choice, and has introduced many controversial education measures. Many primary and secondary schools are being run more like exam factories than traditional schools. Kids in many schools are just trained for exams, not given a chance to read around subjects. It doesn't make it easy when there is too much of a focus on statistics, and less of a personalised approach to education. And the notion that everyone is academically capable is just bullshit, realistically. Some students will always achieve less than others.

 

[Rockman X]

I'm not very familiar with the NCLB act, but it does seem very impractical, and much like alot of the standard education initiatives and reforms here.

In the UK, Nu Labour preaches parent choice, and has introduced many controversial education measures. Many primary and secondary schools are being run more like exam factories than traditional schools. Kids in many schools are just trained for exams, not given a chance to read around subjects. It doesn't make it easy when there is too much of a focus on statistics, and less of a personalised approach to education. And the notion that everyone is academically capable is just bullshit, realistically. Some students will always achieve less than others.

That is EXACTLY what it's like here. Another large aspect of the NCLB involves standardized tests, and it's fucked over students AND schools. Teachers teach students almost nothing but what they need to know for the tests, because the better the students do on the tests, the more funding the school receives. But if the students do poorly, the school receives LESS or no funding, so the students will have even less of a chance of learning. You can't get much more backwards than that.

And I agree, some people just aren't college material. My nephew, for instance, is graduating from highschool this month. It's a momentous occasion because he's not exactly good at academics, he was held back twice. But he's going on to an auto-diesel college because he's fucking amazing at mechanics, and once he's graduated from that (only takes a year) he'll be making just as much money as any college graduate.

Adults make it sound like if you don't go to college you're destined to be living in a poor house or something