Vayne Is Not A Good Person

[Nikkolas]

Let me just start by saying I have nothing against villains who are power-hungry. The would-be despot is one of the oldest and most awesome types of antagonist.
But it seems some are laboring under the belief that Vayne is something more than that.

Now I can see why some people thought that Vayne was more than that. I, and others I've talked to, thought it was possible he was simply making the hard choices so when Larsa came to rule, he wouldn't have to do that.

But that all went out the window when Vayne fully intended to kill Larsa and was only stopped by the heroes.

He also speaks a line that is to the effect of "it's time I got what I deserve." Well it's more like "for too long have my efforts gone unrewarded" but it's the same thing.

The man murdered his brothers and father and was preparing to kill thousands of innocent and helpless people and he would ahve done but the heroes stopped him.

Isn't it telling that the only person who goes along with Vayne is Judge Bergan?

So, no. Vayne is not trying to liberate the people from the Occuria. That was Cid. Vayne is out to conquer the world and rule it himself.

 

[Sultan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnMmAwF24Tk

In this scene Larsa is the one who stood up against him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnMmAwF24Tk

Vayne killed his brothers because he was commanded to do so by his father. He killed his father because of their differences in politics and who succeeds him in rule. Venat is the one who wanted to liberate the humans from the Occuria. Vayne was interested in being the Dynast King. Cid was interested in the results. Venat tells Vayne that the people are in fact liberated from the Occurians and he lends Vayne their power in gratitude.

Vayne wasn't good but he wasn't evil, ruthless, but not evil. He's more believable an antagonist than any of the other Final Fantasy villains. He was ambitious and had a vision of the Ivalice he wanted to rule.

 

[Nikkolas]

Larsa stood up to him because Vayne was about to murder thousands of helpless people.

In short, Larsa had a conscience.
Vayne apparently didn't like that.

And where is it said it was the Emperor who ordered Vayne to kill his brothers?

And Vayne killed his father because he wanted power. Nothing more. He knew his father wasn't homicidal enough so he had to get him out of the way.

Also Kuja had believable motivation. He was far more in-depth than Vayne as well.

 

[Sultan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXz12JP3ciIfeature=related

4:03 "Lord Vayne himself once saw his elder brothers brought to like justice, did he not? At the Excellency's behest, as I recall."

Kuja is a close second. I liked how he reacted to his mortal fate but how he turned good in the end raises an eyebrow.

Vayne is a more ambiguous antagonist, if he wasn't than we wouldn't even have this discussion in the first place. Even the judges were polarized when it came to Vayne.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9wyx7H44jI&feature=related at 3:48

The story of FFXII isn't about good vs evil, it's about a conflict of ideals, nations and ambitions. It's a war story. I'm not saying it's realistic but it's near realism. No one's entirely good or evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RXVKp_q5cY&feature=related

3:50 Larsa's negotiation with Ashe shows as such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Baqhai5rES4

Scenario writer Daisuke Watanabe states as such: "..But I have to say about the characters. No one is entirely good or evil. The "good" characters have weaknesses; they are selfish. The "evil" characters have a conscience and even display kindness. to make players arbitrarily love them or hate them."

I can't remember when was it that Vayne stated he'll annihilate helpless people? He'd risen his Sky Fortress Bahamut to eliminate the resistance as I recall.

 

[Nikkolas]

Bullshit.

What's "selfish" about both Vaan and Ashe casting away their lust for revenge in order to help people?

What's "selfish" about Basch accepting he's hated but still wanting to protect the people who hate him?

And who in their right mind thinks Bergan had a conscience?


Also I thought Bahamut was going to destroy Rabanastre? Maybe I misunderstood.

I get FFXII is a war story and not all wars are Black and White when it comes to morality. But many wars are started and fueled by personal ambition and greed.
And so I would say the person who does that is reprehensible, if not "evil."

So, maybe Vayne isn't evil. But I detest his motives and his actions.

Contrast Vayne with Gabranth.
Gabranth did many wrong things too but he at least had some sympathetic reasons and ideas that I can understand.
So I thinK Gabranth as the far superior antagonist.

 

[Tmoo]

i would say venat was the true villain, cid and gabranth were anti-heroes, and vayne was the vessel for venat's actions and the poster boy for all of the above. villains don't have to be evil.

 

[Nikkolas]

No one is saying a villain has to be evil. For instance, I don't think FFIX Garland was evil.

 

[Sultan]

And I respect your opinion.

Like many, I wish Basch and Gabranth had more screen time. and I bet they would have if they had gone with the original plan of having Basch as the main character. (Yes I know I bitched about this many times but I can't help it)

Fellow Final Fantasy XII character Basch was initially meant to be the main character of the story, but the focus was eventually shifted to Vaan and Penelo when the two characters were created later in development.[1] The development team explained that their previous game, Vagrant Story, which featured a "strong man in his prime" as the protagonist had been unsuccessful and unpopular; the change regarding Final Fantasy XII from a "big and tough" protagonist to a more effeminate one was thus decided after targeting demographics were considered.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaan

 

[Nikkolas]

Just thought I'd post this. This is a more in-depth look at things that I did.

From long before I started FFXII, i heard tale of how "morally ambiguous and almost good" Vayne Solidor was. Much to my dismay, this did not appear to be the case when I played the game. He seemed a very typical power-hungry villain.

On a second playthrough of the game, I've been looking at the story with fresh eyes. You understand so much more in certain scenes when you know what comes after. To this end, I'm trying to find the "good guys" and "bad guys" of FF12. It's very much a perspective thing which is why i like it so much. Final Fantasy is not usually so grey when it comes to this.

Let's delve into it then. I will examine all the major players we see in the game.

Note: I've read a few older topics on here about this which is where I'll be getting the hearsay I bring up a few times.

The Occuria

No group or character fascinates me more than these ambiguous entities. Now, like most, I was appalled by their attitude towards Ashe. They basically told her to commit mass murder because they say so. Yet it does come back to what I mentioned earlier. A second run through the game makes you examine things more instead of being ruled by gut reactions.

The fact of the matter is, the Occuria are gods. Like it or not, they are making peace in Ivalice.

Garif Great-Chief: In ages past, the Gods made a gift of Nethicite to my people. But the manner of its use eluded us. Displeased by our failure, the Gods took back their stones. They chose instead to give them to a Hume King. Called the Dynast-King, he used the Nethicite’s power to bring peace to a troubled time.

Occuria: In times that are long passed away, we thought to save this Ivalice…and chose Raithwall the Dynast-King.

Fact is, they're attempting to do the same thing now. They are trying to save Ivalice from a horrific war.

Now, are their methods right? Probably not. There are many good Imperial people and destroying the entire Empire would kill them. Speaking of Good and Evil, I would say Larsa is the most "good" character in the game. So killing him along with the madmen who rule Archadia wouldn't be fair.

So they're obviously not pure good. But nor are they pure bad.

Raithwall

I see a lot of speculation on the Dynast-King. However, we must consider what is actually stated in the game before our own ideas.

Ashe: Though he is called the Dynast-King… Upon establishing the Alliance, he showed compassion for his people, and disdain for war. A philosophy passed on to his successors. One that would bring peace and prosperity for hundreds of years to follow.

The common theory among fans as I've read is that Raithwall achieved this piece by nuking everyone until they joined up.

In fact, Nethicite is often compared to nuclear weapons which is an apt comparison. Tell me, why do you think half the world isn't radioactive ash? Because while nukes can cause great destruction, they have power in not being used as well.

Simply by existing, weapons like nuclear bombs and nethicite can do many things. Raithwall just having the Nethicite provides two powerful reasons to join up:
1. To not be destroyed.
2. To gain the protection of the strongest weapon in Ivalice.

So you can see now he did not have to blow up everyone who disagreed with him to gain their favor.

You also have to realize these were god-given items. If a man appeared today and said 'God has chosen me to rule" and presented evidence, don't you think people would follow him? Gods do definitely exist in FFXII and so if Raithwall showed up with proof the gods themselves have chosen him, I would say it's a fair reason some might have joined up with him.

Now Final Fantasy 12 has a lot of realism to it; at least compared to other FFs. So could the old adage "history is written by the victors' apply here? Absolutely. Ashe and her family could have totally romanticized Raithwall and what he did. But sadly you have to go with the evidence you're presented. Conjecture is all well and good and there's no harm in some speculation but I prefer to have some actual canon evidence to my ideas.

Dr. Cid

Reddas: A Judge Magister there was… (clashing blades) 2 years past, he took the Midlight Shard and used it not knowing what he did…and Nabudis was blown away. Cid ordered this of him to learn the Nethicite’s true power.

Cid: The reigns of history back in the hands of man!

Cid is probably the best example of a Well-Intentioned Extremist in FF history. There is no denying the Occuria are not the best rulers given their desire for unnecessary death and destruction. Cid sincerely thought, as far as I can see, humanity would best be served ruling itself. I can sympathize but I don't agree. Whatever my own beliefs on humanity in fiction or real life however, I recognize Cid's sincerity in his belief and that he really did want to help the world. He did this through some fairly destructive methods but that's why he's an extremist.

Overall, I'd say he's about even with the Occuria in terms of Good and Evil.

Vayne Solidor

The man who got me interested in deciding who was good and bad and why.
Now I had sort of interpreted his intent just as others have.
He was doing it all for Larsa.

Cid: That so sweet a child could be your brother is hard to believe.

Vayne: Larsa is as he should be.

He could perform the reprehensible acts Larsa should not be exposed to. That way Larsa could rule in peace.

Sadly, this idea was shot in the foot for good near the end.

Vayne: Gabranth, you will defend my brother. He will have much need in the hell to follow.

Venat: For your ascendance, Vayne, I offer prayer. May you attain all that which is your due.

[There was a brief pause as Vayne shows a slight grin on his face.]

Vayne: Attain it I shall.
For too long have my deeds gone unrewarded.

Vayne was just power-hungry. He wanted to leave a mark on history and become the new Dynast-King. While Cid committed the acts he did out of a belief in helping humanity, Vayne seemed motivated solely by personal ambition for glory.

As such, I rate him as the most evil character in the game. Well of the major characters.

Comparison Between Raithwall and Vayne

Many seem to like doing this. Using the speculation about Raithwall, people run with it and say he and Vayne are no different.

Except...they are. Whether Raithwall obliterated everyone who argued with him or not, he and Vayne still operated in very different times.

Cid: Bah, to hell with the Occuria and her stones! What good a power that cannot be harnessed? Baubles best-suited for study, no more.

Vayne: Heh! We conquered two kingdoms, that you might study these "baubles".

In contrast with Raithwall bringing peace with Nethicite, Vayne started two wars and was going to start a third with it.

Conclusion

Isn't it telling that the first thing humans do when they manufacture nethicite is to destroy, kill and maim?

A Kiltia asks after Mt. Bur-omice is attacked and before you battle Bergan "have the Empire no fear of the gods?!" Or something to that effect.

It's clear they don't. With no fear of the gods and the ability to make new and deadlier weapons on their own,humans perpetrate new horrific massacres.

So, is the Occuria rule better than that? I'd say yes myself.

When it's all said and done, I apply my Good and Evil Scale. I use it for all Final Fantasy's.

10 is pure good and -10 is pure evil.
Basch and Larsa score 9 or maybe even 10. They demonstrate complete selflessness and a desire to help preserve lives.

Gabranth is a 0 as he is so conflicted and wrought with repressed anger and self-loathing that he can't really be good or evil.

Cid, the Occuria and Raithwall are maybe -3s. They've committed horrific acts but for noble reasons.

Vayne is a -6. Thousands died because he wanted to be famous and nothing more.

If you're curious, The Emperor of FF2 is the only -10 on my scale. Vayne is less evil than him, Kuja, Exdeath etc. but he's more evil than FFIX Garland or Seymour.

So...those are my thoughts. What say you?

 

[Sultan]

I agree with most of what you say. I just found it to be a little bizarre how the Occurians, being the gods that they are, failed in their intent of destroying the Empire. They chose Ashe because obviously they had full confidence in her cooperation. She did the complete opposite. Unless, that was the Occuria's original intention. I have this idea that a creator's creations do not have the mental capacity to fully understand their maker. Which is why I'm not contradicting The Occuria's intentions so much. For example: Venat, an Occurian, wanted the people of Ivalice to write history's pages instead of his/her fellow Occuria and her/himself. Why? They didn't explain, they don't have to explain. They're Occuria

I agree with you on the good or evil scale bit. I would probably place Vayne on the -6 or -5 mark as well. I know Vayne isn't as Iconic as most of the other FF villains but to me Vayne is how a villain should be. Cool, on top of his game, pulling the strings, patient and powerful. I guess his motives and ambitions are nothing original but his behavior, mannerism and actions are what intrigued me most.

 

[Terra Branford]

Bullshit.

What's "selfish" about both Vaan and Ashe casting away their lust for revenge in order to help people?

What's "selfish" about Basch accepting he's hated but still wanting to protect the people who hate him?

And who in their right mind thinks Bergan had a conscience?

Wait, they aren't selfish deeds. If I remember right, Bergan was a terrible person as well as Vayne. That guys a psycho!

So, maybe Vayne isn't evil. But I detest his motives and his actions.

Wait, how isn't he evil, exactly?

I thought he was pretty screwed up....

 

[Ilyena]

Wait, how isn't he evil, exactly?

I thought he was pretty screwed up....

I wouldn't call him evil.

XII had a very political story and most of the characters don't seem to fall into the good or evil categories. I think history has shown that when it comes to politics, nothing is black and white.

I actually liked Vayne as a villain. I thought he was realistic in the sense that he was a politician. A lot of his characteristics likely came from his upbringing. He was born the son of an emperor and House Solidor only became the ruling line by manipulation (emperors were previously drawn from army generals). Gramis' two elder sons were murdered by Vayne under his orders (if I remember correctly). So he grew up in a country that was built on military might so he likely felt that to prove his worth, he would need to continue Archadia's expansion to prove its might.

He was also working with Cid and Venat to "put the reigns of history back into the hands of man" so to speak. The Occuria chose Raithwall to be their Dynast King and the ruling houses of Nabradia and Dalmasca were direct descendants. Conquering those countries would pretty much ruin the Occuria's plans.

That's not to say he wasn't power-hungry but most politicians are. I do think his affection for Larsa was quite genuine, however. And I think that's part of what made him all the more human.

 

[Tmoo]

don't forget reddas, he's a definite 7 on the good scale. he might not be a major character, but he is the best judge out of FFXII. the little onion things from the sochen cave palace get a -10 because they are bastards through and through. D:<

when vayne zaps larsa's energy to use for himself, he doesn't kill him. i think that says something about his character. perhaps he did it to stop larsa from continuing to fight and get himself hurt. or maybe not. but it can be interpreted as a containment measure and not of killing intent. i don't personally think anything of it, but the possibility exists.