The Sephiroth Clones.

[Davey Gaga]

Every single time I play through this bloody game, I get closer and closer to actually understanding what went on during this particular part of the story. I'm still a bit off, though.

Pro-tip: The rest of my post will be one big massive spoiler but I cba to stop/start the codes, so just assume that I'm about to spoil something for you, if you've not played it.

So, I'm up to the part in the Northern Crater where Sephiroth claims that the memories in Cloud's mind are the illusion, whereas the scenes with Zack are the reality. From playing it before, I know that this is true - Zack was the main person in SOLDIER who accompanied Sephiroth to Nibelheim and it was Zack who ran out of the Shinra Mansion and pursued Sephiroth.

When Sephiroth takes you to the illusionary Nibelheim, he says that "the power of Jenova makes the memories in Tifa's heart reality in Cloud" or something to that effect. He also said "there may actually have been a Cloud in her memories but certainly not you", again, to that effect. Okay, here's where I'm getting lost: the Cloud as whom we have played throughout the entire game - is he a clone to the extent that it wasn't actually HIM who lived in Nibelheim? I ask this because of the reference to the memories in Tifa's heart - does it mean that the Cloud we know wasn't actually the Cloud in Tifa's memories?

Also, I've just come to the flashback, where Cloud is somewhat murky and has arrived at the train station in the Sector 7 Slums, where Tifa finds him. Neither of them seem particularly excited about seeing the other - Tifa asks "Are you all right!?" without acknowledging who it was. Cloud holds his head, the screen flashes and the two begin to interact. As Tifa begins to remember Cloud, our Cloud stands up and declares "I AM Cloud!", which leads be to suspect that Sephiroth was, indeed, telling the truth about the power of Jenova and Tifa's memories.

 

[Eight]

After reading that...I find it very hard to believe your hung over lol.

As for the subject, that has actually began to make me wonder myself now Well noticed Dave...I think I might start researching it now XD

 

[Dragon Mage]

Ooooooooooo, I love these questions. This will be a long read.

All right, first off, no he is NOT a clone. He does NOT have a # tattoo.

Allow me to clarify.

When Cloud was in Niblehiem, he did not reveal himself for who he was for certain reasons, but that's another story. He kept his identity secret until Sephiroth went mad and destroyed the town. Cloud followed him to the reactor where he saw Tifa attack Sephiroth and get badly injured. Cloud than attacked Sephiroth and stabbed him with Zack’s sword. He than ran back to check on Tifa. Sephiroth walked out and Cloud follows him. Sephiroth stabs him through the shoulder, however Cloud manages to throw him off the edge into the reactor. Cloud then passes out from the wound.

Now, if you've read the letter in Tifa's 'room' than this will all be very clear. Shinra soon showed up after Sephiroth had destroyed the town. Hojo ordered to have all the survivors rounded up for experimentation. This includes Cloud and Zack. Tifa, however, was rescued by her instructor and was saved. Anyways, the 'experiment' involves submerging the subject in Mako, which is very deadly.

You probably know all this, but I'll continue for the sake of those that don't. The Mako--Lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news-- for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind. It becomes nearly impossible to sort out one's own memories from the myriad different others that don't belong. If a person likes their life (Zack) then remembering who they are is not much of a problem. If a person doesn't like their life (Cloud) it's very easy to let go of what you don't want to be. This is how Cloud managed to confuse himself as being Zack. He lost his own identity and so created one for himself as something that he had always wanted to be: a member of SOLDEIR. He used Zack in particular because Zack always told him stories of SOLDEIR life.

Cloud however was fortunate, so to speak, in this aspect. You see, he had something to become, something to latch onto and a story to back it up. The other Sephiroth 'clones' didn't have this and so completely lost themselves; they lost their identity. Their minds were broken and so Sephiroth could easily control them. I'll get back to this later.

The other part of the experiment is injecting the subject with Jenova cells. Now keep in mind that Shinra wasn't trying to create a 'Sephiroth clone' but actually a clone of an Ancient. This is because the Shinra needed an Ancient to lead them to the Promised Land, which they thought was full of Mako. Shinra injected them with Jenova cells because they thought that Jenova was an Ancient, which couldn't be more wrong. Anyways.... The Jenova cells transform, if you will, the cells around them; a mutation. These mutations can incorporate some of Jenova's powers to a limited extent. One could call Cloud a mutant and that would be correct. The Mako submerging is required to weaken the mind and thus the body's defense. With the defenses down, the cells can move in and 'attack' the normal cells. This is why Zack didn't change whereas Cloud did, because Zack was able to throw off the effects of the Mako and his body responded to the Jenova cells and killed them.

However, this experiment was interrupted, otherwise it would have been successful. Zack managed to break out and free Cloud as well. And as you know, Zack was killed but Cloud was left to die.

Now I'll get back to the part about the controlling the 'clones'. It must be made clear that Sephiroth is half-Jenova, so to speak. He is a half alien. There is a particular trait about this alien that must be brought up. This alien species can control every single cell individually. Ever seen that movie 'The Thing'? Same situation. The alien can control every cell. This also allows it to change shape at will. Since Sephiroth is a 'member' of this alien species, he retains the same trait of being able to control all of his cells. Now, it must also be made clear that Jenova is thoroughly dead. However, Sephiroth can control the cells of his dead 'mother'. That includes the cells inside the 'clones'. So, Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells inside the 'clones' and Cloud to make them do what he wants.
(the 'Sephiroth' you see in the game--it isn't actually THE Sephiroth. It's actually the body of Jenova that Sephiroth shape-changed to look like him. The real Sephiroth is actually diffused within the Lifestream.)

With the clones it would be easy, just control their minds. With Cloud it would be a little trickier. Sephiroth had to manipulate the already messed up memories Cloud has, to make him believe one thing or another. Namely, that he was nothing more than a clone and that he never had a name, etc. As you can imagine this would be a huge blow to Cloud and resulted in him giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth. However, the plunge into the Lifestream allowed Cloud, with Tifa's help, to find a memory of his own that wouldn’t be susceptible to corruption. Basically it was the memory of why Cloud went to join SOLDEIR, but like I said, that's another story. The truth is revealed and Cloud finds himself in the end.

There. It's finished. I hope this helped.

 

[Davey Gaga]

Indeed, a long read but a worthwhile one at that. That has cleared things up and straightened out the story for me. So, can I safely assume that it was Sephiroth who was mis-informed when he said "what Cloud remembers is the illusion"? Technically, he didn't make up the memories, he just switched the roles of himself and Zack. Sephiroth wouldn't have noticed Cloud in his Shinra uniform and so that leads me to suspect that is why he said Cloud was not in Nibelheim at the time of this particular incident.

Since Cloud has been able to retain control over himself [save for the times when Sephiroth is controlling him directly], then this must be why Hojo calls him a "failure" - he's not entirely drawn to Sephiroth, like the other clones.

Also, I can now see that Hojo's objective was not to re-create Sephiroth but to essentially prove the Jenova Reunion Theory.

 

[Dragon Mage]

So, can I safely assume that it was Sephiroth who was mis-informed when he said "what Cloud remembers is the illusion"? Technically, he didn't make up the memories, he just switched the roles of himself and Zack. Sephiroth wouldn't have noticed Cloud in his Shinra uniform and so that leads me to suspect that is why he said Cloud was not in Nibelheim at the time of this particular incident

You're pretty close to home actually. That could be a very good reason why, but I suspect it's more likely that Sephiroth said that only to screw with Cloud's mind and thus remove him as a threat, as well as the rest of the group, since he's their leader. Also, by weaking Cloud's mind further, Sephiroth could use him as a tool. Which is what he did when he made Cloud hand him the black materia in the Crater.

I'm glad this helped you out! Any more questions just feel free to ask!

 

[Kitab]

Thank you, Dragon Mage. That was the clearest explanation I've yet seen. The only thing that bothers me is the fact that not all of the things you mentioned were actually explicitly stated in the game (the original), and that's why the plot is so difficult to understand. Are some of your points only explained in Advent Children or one of the other parts of the Compilation?

One thing that had me confused when playing the game was that when the party arrived in Nibelheim in the present day, the inhabitants denied all knowledge of the fire, and Cloud's mother was gone. I read on a Wiki that Shinra rebuilt the town and populated it with stooges, and that Cloud's mother was killed in the fire - but I don't remember either of these things ever being revealed in the game.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Thank you, Dragon Mage. That was the clearest explanation I've yet seen. The only thing that bothers me is the fact that not all of the things you mentioned were actually explicitly stated in the game (the original), and that's why the plot is so difficult to understand. Are some of your points only explained in Advent Children or one of the other parts of the Compilation?

You're welcome!

Much of the above information is gleaned from the game itself and the Ultimania Omega Guide (yes, SE made a long-winded guide to explain everything in the game!). A lot of the information simply comes from having a very good handle on the world mechanics and how things work, which is revealed to you only in clues throughout the game. All I've done, basically, is take those clues and info from the guide, and condense it down to one realitively small post easier for reading, yet still gets all the info across.

For example, we know that someone suffering from Mako poisoning is flooded with memories not their own only on the 3rd disk, when Cloud is afflicted with such poisoning. As for the part about Jenova being an alien, that can be found by reading some of the books in the Shinra basement. We find out WHY they want to make a clone of an 'ancient' from dialouge pieces dropped when they kiddnap Aerith and when Pres. Shinra goes on about the Promised Land in the beginning.

Trust me, it takes quite a few playthroughs to be able to understand what these pieces mean, piece them together, and get a coherent explaination from them all.

However, one can play the game with a perfect understanding of the 'surface' plot--the plot you know is motivating the game--without ever tapping into the well of knowledge and background underneath. I know many people play it that way and are utterly oblivious to such a background until they stumble on a thread/post like this, and their eyes are suddenly opened!

One can only hope that when they remake this game, they'll be able to explicitly explain everything in the game, instead of leaving the very curious people of the world (like me) to go hunting down all that info.

One thing that had me confused when playing the game was that when the party arrived in Nibelheim in the present day, the inhabitants denied all knowledge of the fire, and Cloud's mother was gone. I read on a Wiki that Shinra rebuilt the town and populated it with stooges, and that Cloud's mother was killed in the fire - but I don't remember either of these things ever being revealed in the game.

That bit of information is revealed if you go up to Tifa's room in her house. Ignore the piano (yes, I know you can play it, that's how you get her final Limit) and go over to the desk in the upper left corner. Press "O" and you'll be able to read the documents left on the desk. It explains everything, about how Shira rebuilt the town and filled it with employees.

A lot of info can be hard to find. For example, finding out what happened to Cloud and Zack doesn't require you to play CC. If you go into the Shinra basement on the 3rd disk, a 'hidden' cutscene will automatically play. There are absolutely NO hints as to this cutscene existing or that something will happen if you go there in the game, so it's nigh impossible for you to ever find. Most of it just entails that you look everywhere.

 

[Kitab]

As for the part about Jenova being an alien, that can be found by reading some of the books in the Shinra basement.

I didn't know you could read the books in the Shinra basement! But didn't Sephiroth read all of these books? Shouldn't he know that Jenova was an alien and not an Ancient? I thought that it was his resentment of humanity for what they did to the Ancients that motivated his plans.

 

[Lahl]

I didn't know you could read the books in the Shinra basement! But didn't Sephiroth read all of these books? Shouldn't he know that Jenova was an alien and not an Ancient? I thought that it was his resentment of humanity for what they did to the Ancients that motivated his plans.

Sephiroth is obviously a noob compared to Dragon Mage
Wow, just read through what Dragon Mage was saying and it has made things a lot more easier for me to digest. Thanks man
Are you sure your not an acutal FFVII Game Developer. I think you are
Haha

 

[tytanowy]

Ok so questions are:
Why the hell Hojo took Zack to his experiment ('Clone') ?
Didn't he know that he's SOLDIER and already had Jenova Cells injected ?
So as long he's a SOLDIER 1st class, he had will and body strong enough to survive MAKO thretment while not losing his identity, right ? Or, these was chosen who had ability to destroy injected Jenova Cells ?

If all SOLDIER had Jenova Cells why they don't aim for reunion ? (or Zack and Sephiroth was LAST SOLDIER 1st class ?)

Or these cells was different than ones used in 'clone' experiment ?

Can someone explain it ?

 

[FF7Guru]

Yes. Soldier are exposed to mako, not Jenova cells.So they had no pull for the reunion. Soldier 1st class are chosen for their fighting prowess, not resistance to Jenova cells. Zack and Cloud weren't chosen, they were taken without consent (causing escape). Hope that helps.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

Ok so questions are:
Why the hell Hojo took Zack to his experiment ('Clone') ?
Didn't he know that he's SOLDIER and already had Jenova Cells injected ?
So as long he's a SOLDIER 1st class, he had will and body strong enough to survive MAKO thretment while not losing his identity, right ? Or, these was chosen who had ability to destroy injected Jenova Cells ?

If all SOLDIER had Jenova Cells why they don't aim for reunion ? (or Zack and Sephiroth was LAST SOLDIER 1st class ?)

Or these cells was different than ones used in 'clone' experiment ?

Can someone explain it ?

Hojo took all survivors of the Nibelheim incident for his experiment. He obviously knew that Zack was a SOLDIER and would probably handle the cells differently, but he is a scientist and must find these things out ofcourse. Only few people in SOLDIER actually had Jenova cells (Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal and eventually Zack) and all of these had bitten the dust by the time the reunion started. Other SOLDIER members just had the standerd Mako shower.

 

[tytanowy]

thanks for info that's enough for me !

 

[Sephikross]

Not enough for me. I've played this game through a bunch of times, trying to explore everywhere, find everything and piece the puzzle together. I've put in a lot of hours trying to unravel the whole mystery in its entirety so well explained that there are no other ways of looking at it. I still have alternating hazy views.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

So we've come to the conclusion that you don't get the whole story just by playing the game? So anything they missed out of the original game, and don't explain in sequels/prequels, they can just explain in little guides they make up along the way? Not fair!

 

[Sephikross]

^On that note, I do believe that waaaay back in the day I did have a pretty firm grasp on the whole situation, but I'm pretty sure I was never absolutely positive, though. But, I'm not the best gamer, either. I'm just one of them.

I really need to re-aquire this game. I haven't played it in so many years, I miss it.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

The translation is quite poor in FFVII, aswell as the fact that some story was left out anyway to release the game quicker apparently. With games like these its easy to get confused.

 

[FF7Guru]

You do get a good idea of it though. I've only played 7, and I've still not got the full story yet.

 

[Sephikross]

The translation is quite poor in FFVII, aswell as the fact that some story was left out anyway to release the game quicker apparently. With games like these its easy to get confused.

^Well, yes. That is part of its mystique. I don't believe that they left it out to release it quicker, that's not FF or Squares style. I think they sort of left a few holes in the story on purpose to pique your intrigue about it, as I've said, I've played through it thoroughly many more times than I'm going to admit in public and I still don't feel like I completely understand the exacts of each backstory to the events.

I'm pretty sure that they wanted it to be all mysterious and hazy to the player, I'm pretty sure that's the reason that I've played it so many times, because I wasn't satisfied with my knowledge of the deeper story, so I kept pummeling it into the ground over and over again.

I think that's the reason why it is such the great game that it is. It keeps you guessing. As frustrating as it is, I think it's why you've played it so much and reguard it so highly.

Not saying that it wouldn't still be a great game if everything was completely explained and everyone completely understood it, yeah it's a good game, but the way they made it and put it together to always keep us wondering, that's what took it from a final fantasy to THE final fantasy.

 

[Dragon Mage]

I didn't know you could read the books in the Shinra basement! But didn't Sephiroth read all of these books? Shouldn't he know that Jenova was an alien and not an Ancient? I thought that it was his resentment of humanity for what they did to the Ancients that motivated his plans.

Yes, he did read them, but remember, they were all penned by Shira scientists who thought Jenova was an Ancient. So, drawing from their distorted knowledge, he would belive the same thing. After all, it is the only existing record of Jenova. He would be none the wiser. Thus, he would take the insult of the 'others' (the non-Ancients according to him) abandoning the true protectors of the planet, and seek revenge on them when it truly was nothing like that. Jenova came there to kill for reasons unknown.

Apparently, Sephiroth realizes this and gets his priorities straight in FF7: AC, because in there he says he's just going to finish what his mother started (for whatever goal that may be). Few people realize the change in his ambition/goal, they just want to see the sword-porn between him and Cloud.

Sephiroth is obviously a noob compared to Dragon Mage

Wow, just read through what Dragon Mage was saying and it has made things a lot more easier for me to digest. Thanks man
Are you sure your not an acutal FFVII Game Developer. I think you are

Haha

xD Thank you so much! lol, you truly flatter me! And I'm only too glad to help!

Why the hell Hojo took Zack to his experiment ('Clone') ?

Cloud, Zack, and anyone that survived Sephiroth's destruction of Nibel were used as experiments. Why were they taken? Because it would be easy to kill of the townspeople and replace them with Shinra employees to hide what had happened. No witnesses. That meant Cloud and Zack as well. So, instead of killing them, they were used in a likely fatal human experiement. Why waste a perfectly good specimen?

Didn't he know that he's SOLDIER and already had Jenova Cells injected ?

I'm assuming you mean Zack here. No, he didn't know he had Jenova Cells injected in him. This experiment was executed like most government-military experiments: The men are told it's a protein shot. Or something like that. Then the effects will be monitored while the men themselves have no clue as to what is happening.

So as long he's a SOLDIER 1st class, he had will and body strong enough to survive MAKO thretment while not losing his identity, right ? Or, these was chosen who had ability to destroy injected Jenova Cells ?

No, being in SOLDIER 1st class had nothing to do with him overthrowing the effects of the Mako. It was entirely because of Zack's own personality. He was very confident, happy with who he was, and thus the onslaught of hundreds of other personalities were unable to anchor themselves in his mind--he had no desire to be something different. Thus he didn't lose his identity. He was sound of mind--physical strength and condition had little to do with it.

As for your second question, I don't understand what you mean. Can you please rephrase it better (preferrably with better English ) so I can answer your question accurately? Thank you.

If all SOLDIER had Jenova Cells why they don't aim for reunion ? (or Zack and Sephiroth was LAST SOLDIER 1st class ?)

All those SOLDIER's were not submerged in Mako. That added step is very important. That takes out the mind and disables the body's immune reaction. How does your body react when something foreign enters? It attacks it. With the mind disabled, and the body physically weakened because of that, the cells were free to go to work. Otherwise, those cells that were injected into all those men were simply taken out by the immune system.

Also, there's the point to consider that Sephiroth was not manipulating the cells at that time. He only does this later, after he discovers his ties to Jenova and the inherent powers granted to him therein. He uses his powers to manipulate Jenova cells to use her dead body as a puppet, to control the 'clones', and to mess with Cloud's head. He couldn't do this with the other SOLDIER's because the cells were already destroyed by the time he realized these powers.

Any more questions?


Also, @ Sephikross, I've read somewhere that the FF7 story was a book, or was to be a book originally, before it was made into a game. Seeing how badly books can be translated into other mediums, that could explain a good deal of how so much information got stranded on the way side.