The Pros of the Yevon Religion

[Nikkolas]

wrong again, the al bhed dont 'get everyone killed', there is just so much wrong with that i wont even bother to explain it all to you.

Saying something is wrong isn't gonna change the reality of it being right. The Al Bhed got everyone killed in that operation with their useless machina.

we are talking about the same game right?
seymour isnt a nihilist nor is he insane

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nihilist

Someone who rejects the world and wants to destroy everything?
Huh...guess that isn't Seymour at all.........

no she is used by bevelle and yevon, she proves that the only way to 'defeat' sin is by following yevon/ bevelle's (as they are more or less the same thing) teachings, thus ensuring that everyone lives the way yevon wants them to.

I guess you didn't read the OP... Yunalesca's belief in the Final Aeon predates the establishment of the Yevon religion.

would you mind turning that into a coherent sentence?

Yes, I would.

But I'm a nice guy so here it is.

"The Fayth repeatedly ask Yuna to summon the aeons because it's a necessary factor to defeat Yu Yevon. Thus, Auron and Tidus be totally screwed."

 

[Donald Trump]

firstly a nihilist is someone who doesnt believe in anything, that there is no point to existence, not that they want to kill everybody, ie anti-semites hate/dislike jews, they dont necessarily want to murder all the jews in the world.
And seymour's reason for becoming sin is not bad, just the way he plans to achieve it.

Yunalesca may pre-date Yevon but Bevelle comes before her, and Yevon is just a means for Bevelle to perpetuate its control over Spira.

The Al Bhed got everyone killed in that operation with their useless machina.

You mean operation Mihen
1) Its not the al bhed's fault the machina doesnt kill sin
2) the crusaders want the al bhed's help, further absolving them from guilt.
3) Seymour knows it isnt going to work and so does Kinoc, they use it to show that Yevon is the only way to salvation
4) The al bhed's persecution pre-dates operation mihen.

The fayth arent Yevon, they are used by Yevon, the final summon isnt a fayth but a real person, so the fayth arent the answer.

Tidus and Auron encourage the others to challenge Yevon, thus leading to the killing of sin

 

[Nikkolas]

firstly a nihilist is someone who doesnt believe in anything, that there is no point to existence, not that they want to kill everybody, ie anti-semites hate/dislike jews, they dont necessarily want to murder all the jews in the world.

Hooray for multiple definitions.

"total and absolute destructiveness, esp. toward the world at large"

And seymour's reason for becoming sin is not bad, just the way he plans to achieve it.

He. Wants. To. Kill. Everyone.

That's bad.

He thinks it helps to die. Others disagree with him. Mainly because they're not power-hungry killers turned dead nihilists.

Yunalesca may pre-date Yevon but Bevelle comes before her, and Yevon is just a means for Bevelle to perpetuate its control over Spira.

Not aoccording to the history of the religion. It was founded to ensure Spira and everyone in it didn't die.

1) Its not the al bhed's fault the machina doesnt kill sin
2) the crusaders want the al bhed's help, further absolving them from guilt.

Yes it is. Yevon told everyone machina couldn't kill SIn..and GASP it couldn't.

3) Seymour knows it isnt going to work and so does Kinoc, they use it to show that Yevon is the only way to salvation

How life works. Sometimes the only way to teach the kid to not stick his hand on the burner is to let him do it and feel the pain of it.

Auron also knew it wouldn't work by the way.

4) The al bhed's persecution pre-dates operation mihen.

True. I never said Yevon was totally right in persecuting the Al Bhed.

The fayth arent Yevon, they are used by Yevon, the final summon isnt a fayth but a real person, so the fayth arent the answer.

Um, the Fayth outright asks Yuna to call them multiple times and it's only AFTER you've defeated the Yevon-possessed aeons that you are able to battle Yu Yevon.

So...why do you think this was? Because it was totally unnecessary?

Tidus and Auron encourage the others to challenge Yevon, thus leading to the killing of sin

Via Yuna summoning aeons for Yu Yevon to possess and then to be weakened by destroying those aeons.

 

[Donald Trump]

Yes it is. Yevon told everyone machina couldn't kill SIn..and GASP it couldn't.

but yevon has already proved to be totally corupt and untrustable, therefore what Yevon says is worth less than nothing.

Hooray for multiple definitions.

"total and absolute destructiveness, esp. toward the world at large"

Take the classic example of a nihilist, Raskolnikov, He killed one person because he believed that the world was better off without her and the other so he could get away, Nihilists arent psychopaths determined to kill everyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

there you go a proper defintion of nihilism.

Not aoccording to the history of the religion. It was founded to ensure Spira and everyone in it didn't die.

again this is what Yevon says, which is not reliable, i suppose its open to interpretation, but if you believe everything Yevon says that makes you gullible and naive.

How life works. Sometimes the only way to teach the kid to not stick his hand on the burner is to let him do it and feel the pain of it.

pretty draconian way of ruling and for something thats supposed to be helping Spira, its morally wrong.

I never said Yevon was totally right in persecuting the Al Bhed.

Totally? they arent even one percent right, you can never be even partially right if you go around persecuting people.

He. Wants. To. Kill. Everyone

read my post again, it says what he wanted wasnt bad, just how he planned to achieve it, he wanted to rid the people of Spira of their sorrow and Pain, because as a maester, he knew Yevon was corupt and that Sin was (to the best of his knowledge) constant.

 

[Nikkolas]

but yevon has already proved to be totally corupt and untrustable, therefore what Yevon says is worth less than nothing.

Yevon said machina can't stop Sin.

Operation Mi'Hen has people using machina to try and beat Sin.

They all get destroyed.

Seems like Yevon was pretty spot on....

there you go a proper defintion of nihilism.

lol @ Wikipedia is above Dictionary.com

again this is what Yevon says, which is not reliable, i suppose its open to interpretation, but if you believe everything Yevon says that makes you gullible and naive.

Yevon didn't say that...you really need to read the OP like I've asked you to do a few times now.

pretty draconian way of ruling and for something thats supposed to be helping Spira, its morally wrong.

They told everyone machina wouldn't work and to obey the teachings...been that way for centuries. Then the Crusaders think they can do more than simply halt Sin... They were wrong and it cost them their lives.

Hardly Yevon's fault.

Totally? they arent even one percent right, you can never be even partially right if you go around persecuting people.

I guess you'r right. Child molesters have rights too. I'm not saying the Al Bhed molested children but you made a blanket statement there and I called you on it.

Ever heard of Democracy? The majority rules. The majority of Spira didn't want machina or the Al Bhed.

read my post again, it says what he wanted wasnt bad, just how he planned to achieve it, he wanted to rid the people of Spira of their sorrow and Pain, because as a maester, he knew Yevon was corupt and that Sin was (to the best of his knowledge) constant.

Seymour is exactly the same as Yevon but worse.
Both FORCE their views on people. Seymour would force his belief of "death is salvation" upon the world by killing everyone in it.

Mika, and the founders of the religion, all had no desire to watch Spira die because they cared about it and the people in it.

 

[Rockman X]

Yevon was also full of crap. In case you forgot the events that transpired in Bevelle (which is likely, seeing as how you can't remember the game clearly anyway), I'll just give you some quotes from it:

Kinoc
"Enlightened rule by the dead is preferable to the misguided failures of the living."

Seymour
"Life is but a passing dream, but the death that follows is eternal."

Mika
"Men die. Beasts die. Trees die. Even continents perish."
"Only the power of death truly commands in Spira."
"Resisting its power is futile."

Yuna
"But what of Sin?"
"I am a summoner, my lord, like my father before me!"
"I am on a pilgrimage to stop the death that Sin brings."
"Are you... Are you telling me that, too, is futile?"
"Grand Maester Mika, I am not alone!"
"All the people who have opposed Sin..."
"Their battles, their sacrifices--were they all in vain?"

Mika
"Not in vain."
"No matter how many summoners give their lives, Sin cannot be truly defeated."
"The rebirth cannot be stopped."
"Yet the courage of those who fight gives the people hope."
"There is nothing futile in the life and death of a summoner."

Auron
"Never futile... but never ending."

Mika
"Indeed, that is the essence of Yevon."

So yeah, Yevon had no intention of stopping Sin. They were unaware it COULD be stopped, and if they had known a method they probably would have kept it stifled so they could stay in power. I'm ignoring the rest of your stupid post because I've killed your dumb arguments siding with Yevon. Feel free to argue more, I won't bother replying because I don't need to, Placebo keeps pwning you anyway

 

[Donald Trump]

I guess you'r right. Child molesters have rights too. I'm not saying the Al Bhed molested children but you made a blanket statement there and I called you on it.

yet on the other hand Hitler persecuted all the jews, so you are saying that's okay?
and its stillw rong to persecute child molesters, we all make mistakes but we shouldnt be continually punished, "the sins of the past have long shadows" and how do we know that these people are child molesters and furthermore child molsetation has nothing to do with Yevon, so try to keep your mind out of the gutter

Yevon didn't say that...you really need to read the OP like I've asked you to do a few times now

when i say Yevon i mean the religion bevelle use to control Spira, you have interpreted as Bevelle wanting to appease Sin's wrath, yet that isnt what is happening, they use the fear of sin to control the people of Spira, You think the Original Yevon wanted people not to use machina? no of course not, as Zanarkand was a machina city, therefore the reason Yevon(the religion) forbids machina is because any other group of people that has machina is a rival to Bevelle, therefore they say Machina caused sin, so no dares use machina.

They told everyone machina wouldn't work and to obey the teachings...been that way for centuries. Then the Crusaders think they can do more than simply halt Sin... They were wrong and it cost them their lives.

Hardly Yevon's fault.

Heard the song 'something in the air tonight'? Phil Collins talks about being able to save someone that is drowning but chooses not to, because he wants them to die, which is what Yevon does with operation Mihen.

Ever heard of Democracy? The majority rules. The majority of Spira didn't want machina or the Al Bhed.

ever heard of propaganda or for an even better example Jim Jones? A charismatic religious leader offering salvation to people? Do you think that the people would have choosen to go with Him to Guyana if they hadnt been brainwashed? the answer is no.
Do you think the Germa people would have been part of Kristilnacht if the Anti-semitic propaganda hadnt told them Jews were bad? the answer again is no, therefore the same can be applied to Spira, also its ironic how you bring up Democracy as Yevon isnt democratic, yet autocratic and oligarchic.

Mika, and the founders of the religion, all had no desire to watch Spira die because they cared about it and the people in it.

No they dont, they are power hungry addicts you cant relinquish power even after they are dead, they dont care about the people, they love power, nothing more

 

[Nikkolas]

Yevon was also full of crap. In case you forgot the events that transpired in Bevelle (which is likely, seeing as how you can't remember the game clearly anyway)

Still can’t “debate” without insulting like a first grader...shame.

So yeah, Yevon had no intention of stopping Sin.

Whoever said they did?

I think it’s you who doesn’t remember the OP who needs quotes refreshing your memory.

“It wasn’t that they deliberately lied about Sin being permanently gone eventually - they sincerely believed the Final Summoning was the only method to defeat Sin. Everyone from Mika to Seymour to Yunalesca echo that the Final Summoning was the only way to defeat Sin and that it being gone would result in the destruction of everything.

Mika himself says:
Mika
"Spira has lost its only hope. Destruction is inevitable.
Yu Yevon's spiral of death will consume us all.
I have no desire to watch Spira die."

At which point he apparently jus tgives up on life and fades off to the Farplane (he’s in the Via Infinito but that whole thing was a plothole).

It’s clear to me that Yevon did not do what it did out of malicious intent but out of being wrong int their beliefs. “

and if they had known a method they probably would have kept it stifled so they could stay in power.

No proof. Worthless.

I'm ignoring the rest of your stupid post because I've killed your dumb arguments siding with Yevon. Feel free to argue more, I won't bother replying because I don't need to, Placebo keeps pwning you anyway

An intellectual toddler proclaiming victory after punching Mike Tyson. You can’t debate and while that’s not bad in and of itself, humility be nice.

yet on the other hand Hitler persecuted all the jews, so you are saying that's okay?

No. Persecute people who deserve it is what I’m saying.

and its stillw rong to persecute child molesters, we all make mistakes but we shouldnt be continually punished, "the sins of the past have long shadows" and how do we know that these people are child molesters and furthermore child molsetation has nothing to do with Yevon, so try to keep your mind out of the gutter

Says the guy who brought up Hitler......

And everyone makes mistakes true. But they deserve to be punished for it.
Some people change, most don’t. If a guy rape sa little kid somewhere and he dies, I’m nto shedding any tears.

when i say Yevon i mean the religion bevelle use to control Spira, you have interpreted as Bevelle wanting to appease Sin's wrath, yet that isnt what is happening, they use the fear of sin to control the people of Spira, You think the Original Yevon wanted people not to use machina? no of course not, as Zanarkand was a machina city, therefore the reason Yevon(the religion) forbids machina is because any other group of people that has machina is a rival to Bevelle, therefore they say Machina caused sin, so no dares use machina.

Big assumption on your part. There’s nothing saying machina was outlawed to centralize power.

Considering the tech the Al Bhed are sitting on, I highly doubt it’s the case.

Heard the song 'something in the air tonight'? Phil Collins talks about being able to save someone that is drowning but chooses not to, because he wants them to die, which is what Yevon does with operation Mihen.

They told them don’t do it. They did it.
You pay for your crimes.

ever heard of propaganda or for an even better example Jim Jones? A charismatic religious leader offering salvation to people? Do you think that the people would have choosen to go with Him to Guyana if they hadnt been brainwashed? the answer is no.

Same way people in Palestine vote for Hamas in their elections.
Who are we to tell them “sorry, sure that’s democracy but not the right kind”? Answer: we’re nobody.

also its ironic how you bring up Democracy as Yevon isnt democratic, yet autocratic and oligarchic.

they’re a theocracy

No they dont, they are power hungry addicts you cant relinquish power even after they are dead, they dont care about the people, they love power, nothing more

Nice theory
Shame it contradicts what the game itself tells us
Kelk Ronso, a pretty alright guy, outright says Mika is in power after death invaluable to Spira
Mika then leaves when Spira and everyone will die because he “has no desire to watch Spira die”
Just like the original founders of Yevon didn’t want it either.


Your repeated assertions will mean nothing until you can prove any of it.

 

[mckracken3996]

ok heres all i got to say first off im going to say i havent played this game since it came out so i dont remember all the deatials now to my point alot of people said that aurona and tidus were the only ones who matterd but if i remeber correctly wasnt the reason sin was weaker then the previus sins was because jecht wasnt real but a dream of the faiths (correct me if im wrong) yuna was needed to summon the aeons and to give the game intrest (EX:weird laughing scene) rikku was the token al bhed character and so on blah blah blah they all had a need but some more than others the end

 

[KourtneyVT09]

not right

but the folowers of yevon didnt even follow their own religion. it was a corrupt religion, and it mis guided the peoples of spira. the pros of it wheres pros simply because it kept spira ignorant. and whars good about ignorance? ignorance is not bliss

 

[Nikkolas]

I just thought I'd post this.

"When you fight Yu Yevon, we will help you. Promise me you'll summon us. I'm afraid your swords and magic won't be enough."

So, yeah, Tidus and Auron were almost worthless without Yuna.

Yuna who then goes on to save the world from the ancient all-powerful machina.

But Tidus and Auron are more important to Spira than her....uh-huh. Riiiiiiiiight.

 

[ListKeeper]

I didn't think of Yevon that way and alot of what your saying makes sense so I guess in some way the temples of Yevon were helping people and doing some good but as you also said they did alot of bad as well and thats what there mostly seen for.

 

[Toothache]

Has anyone thought that Yevon might be aware that certain machina could stop Sin (such as the airship blasting away Sin's arms) so thats the reason they forbid them?