Strong Women Characters???

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Lacroix

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I've heard alot said that this game has a new writer, and i think thats pretty clear from the sucky characterisation generally, but does anyone else think that the game features alot of pretty weak, anti-feminist characters??

Penelo is the worst offender. She always talks about Vaan and then when she gets kidnapped early on, pretty much sits around waiting to be saved, even saying something like 'where are you?'
sheesh. what is this, the 1950s?? Aeris is a meek character, but she would actually try and solve things and not sit around waiting for a man to save her.

Ashe. Fights for her husband. Has complained quite a few times that people wont let her do things because they dont think she is capable on her own. The problem is, the world isn't actually out and out anti-woman, and no one ever really suggests that she cant do things... so the fact that she keeps complaining seems a tad useless.

Fran - She actually is a pretty strong character and knows who she is and what she wants. So to compensate for that the game sticks her in a thong, so that any actual femist actions she might do are sort of counterbalanced by the fact that she is in ogle-worthy clothes. Also, she seems a bit too subservient to Balthier which as of yet hasnt been explained why, whilst he gets to make misogynistic quips like 'i always knew she didn't like to be tied up....'
 
Well actually, the charcterisation is probably the best seen in a Final Fantasy since FFVII. True, it doesn't give a big insight into the character backgrounds like VII, but you still get a good feel of who they are

Penelo - I actually dislike her, but your rant about her being kidnapped is unfair towards her. All her life has been spent in and around Rabanastre. She's never experienced any true danger from anyone, and suddenly a stranger comes along and takes her to places unknown. The situation is unfamiliar to her, and she doesn't have anything to do but sit around and hope for Vaan to save her. As far as she knows, her life truly is in danger for the first time in her life. Aeris grew up constantly being pursued by The Turks, and this developed her into a strong character

Ashe - She fights for her husband, and all that she lost when her kingdom fell. This isn't anti-feminist. She's a strong female character for standing up to The Archadian Empire and for what she believes in
 
Well okay, thats an opinion, but I thought Forums were here to discuss and incite debate, so could you give me a for instance? i.e In what ways does this game regard women as strong characters, or, do older FFs treat women worse than this game does and I just haven't noticed?
 
I think all the Final Fantasies show the strong side of female characters, and XII has been no exception. As I said, Penelo is portrayed as weaker becasue she has no past experience in real danger. Ashe is a fighter, much like Tifa, Rinoa and Freya were. You said yourself that Fran is a strong character who knows herself
 
Penelo - Pooley Summed her Up pretty well - i cant really expand on that but i agree with him.

Ashe - i imagine that after living in hiding she'd have had a pretty sheltered life and not being allowed to do anything - she just wants to prove herself and she is the Leader of the group so Ashe is the strongest female character.

Fran - I agree with some of the points youve said about Fran - yes she is a stron and Intelligent woman who knows who she is and what she wants.

Fran may be ogle worthy but really whos in control there? the man or the woman? Besides its traditional Veria clothing too and its not like Frans the first FF girl to wear revealing clothes - Tifa for example - and tifa turned out not to be a weak female character*. and Fran isnt subserviant to balthier - IMO they just have UST - Unrelieved Sexual Tention :P FranXBalthier is my favorite XII couple :P

*Being Unbiased so dont be shocked :P

so IMO the woman of FFXII are strong - and Ashe is even the leader of their merry little Crew which is a first for an FF game so you could even go as far as to say that the XII portrayal of the woman is Revolutionary XD

And Aeris is not meek -_- (had to point that out sorry :P)
 
sorry, someone posted between my post.

Okay.

1.) Penelo

- She has left Rabanastre seemingly more times than Vaan as you meet her in the Giza Plains (when you as far as we know are there only for the first time)

So, by your logic Vaan is worse off than her, and by Penelos own admission has childlike immaturity. So there is no reason why by your logic she should sit around and expect vaan to save her if she has more experience than him. Thus, the only reason for her DOING NOTHING TO EVEN TRY TO ESCAPE and waiting for him to rescue her must be because he is a man and she is a woman.

2.)
Ashe.

I acknowledge that she stands for what she believes in and fights, but as I was saying, we get no sense she lives in a world which doesnt think she can do things, making it silly when she complains alot early on saying things like "you need to protect me?" or "you don't think I can do what they do?" sort of moans. None of the characters ever seem to suggest that she cant do just as well as the male skypirates, and the world isnt against it seemingly, so her complaining is almost like the scriptwriter is drawing attention to her femininity.

So in Ashes case its like: Shes a woman BUT she can do just as good as a man!

Maybe in the 1950s this would be feminist but now it is patronising.

Its like going: its a woman BUT she has a job!

The script draws attention to the fact that Ashe feels her abilities are undervalued. Yet the world itself has no anti-woman remarks (unlike Don Corneo in FF7). So, if the world is not presenting her with anything to really rebel against, then it just seems to me like the writer is making an issue of the fact that a woman can fight just as well as a man... which should be a pretty redundant concept by now that i would think does not need any attention drawn to it.
 
If we're on the topic of revealing females, Ashe is worse than Fran. That skirt she wears is more revealing than the stuff Adam & Eve wore :lol:

EDIT: Like I said, Penelo has grown up in and around Rabanstre. We're given no evidence, that she's left the city more times than Vaan, and even if she was, who's to say she was subjected to dangerous situations? Vaan's surname is Ratsbane for gawd's sake, which indicates that he has the capabilities to look after himself. Penelo is 'the girl who wants peace' and this implies she tries to avoid conflict, whereas Vaan doesn't.

I don't remember there being any times when people say Ashe is incapable though. In fact, Judge Ghis even states that she has a strong, fighting charcter
 
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Also, when she was kidnapped by Ba Gamnans gang, do you SERIOUSLY expect her character to take on four wicked Bangaa brutes? She's like chained up as well if you didn't notice, so that's why she was just sat around.
 
Interesting. I always took Dalans 'Ratsbane' comment to be more of an insult than a complement. More of a 'ooh, he can kill rats, scary' in the same way that everyone else comments on how weak and pathetic looking he is (many characters always act surprised when you kill things).

Does the game ever acknowledge that Penelo is 'the girl who wants peace' more than others or is that just the posters? Because again, other than a few rats, there isnt a marked difference in ability between penelo and vaan.

No. No one does comment on Ashes incapability. It is HER who says to Ondore and Basch that she is able to look after her self, and doesn't need anyone to keep her safe!

This would NOT be a problem if other people did call her incpable, because it would mean she is fighting against a misogynist system, but as you said, no one does make this comment, making HER outcries redundant. This is why I think it is the SCRIPTWRITER giving us a dodgy characterization of a woman who feels the need to draw attention to the fact that she 'doesn't need protected' even though none of the game characters ever really ssuggest she does. The drawing attention to the fact is what makes it seem dodgy imo.


---

Yes, Frans clothes are traditional Viera. But this is the same problem:

why does the writer/designer make the species who espouse strongest the notions of sisterhood and girl power make them all dress in the sexy lingerie style armour?

and even going by game logic... Fran abandoned the Viera so why does she keep the clothes? (although she does express regret at her loss, so I guess that explains that)

Tifa does wear skimpy clothing, but this never became an issue on its own as FF7 treated women respectfully. It was only the fact that I felt iffy about the treatment of women in FFXII that made Frans clothes an issue for me personally.


And whoever said Aeris is not meek is right. I meant more that she first comes off as 'cute innocent flower girl' but that we then get to know her and she transcends the stereotype in the same way that Tifa transcends the initial 'busty barmaid' stereotype.


I disagree that Balth and Fran have UST, i think it is resolved. But as far as i know (correct me if we do get backstory on this) we get no reason why she follows him almost unquestioningly and helps him out. wheras he never seems to do anything to aid her particularly. Like i said before, when she freaks out on the leviathan, he just makes the bondage joke of 'i always knew she didnt like to be tied up' in the sarcastic voice... (this comment is what led me to question if they had 'resolved' their UST and been in a relationship previously btw... did anyone else take it to mean that, or have i just got a dirty mind?)

"Also, when she was kidnapped by Ba Gamnans gang, do you SERIOUSLY expect her character to take on four wicked Bangaa brutes? She's like chained up as well if you didn't notice, so that's why she was just sat around."


I didn't say she had to FIGHT. Look at how Aeris and Tifa reacted when being locked by Don Corneo. They used their brains to get out of the situation.

Tifa escapes on her own from being locked in a gas chamber later in the game as well.


As far as I recall, Penelo doesnt even really test the strength of the locks. She just sort of sits and longs for Vaan to rescue her. I mean, are any of you saying that if you got locked up you wouldn't even TRY once the big brutes had left the room???
 
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About Ashe....think about it - shes been in hiding for the past two years - she would have been sheltered and protected and not allowed to do anything herself - which is why she feels like she needs to prove to herself that she can do it herself - plus Vossler was always doing the fighting so she doesnt have to so she feels like she has to prove to him that she can look after herself.

Viera probably wear the clothes they wear because its suitable for the hunting needs - and its traditional - and because there will be no men in thier wood to Oogle at them so they probably dont know any better.

Plus if men oogle at Fran shes exploiting them - shes happy with her body and if people wanna look shes going to let them look.
 
Dalan didn't mean it as an insult. Obviously, the rats are a problem in Lowtown and Vaan's eradication of them is a help for everyone and few people do it.
While the game doesn't directly acknowledge Penelo as 'The girl who wants peace' but S-E do. It's her given title, if you like, in the instruction manual.
I think Ashe's way of saying she is capable to Ondore and Basch, is because she doesn't want them making the assumption that she is a weak character
As for Fran, I can't comment on it, as I don't know the thinking behind the creators resaoning. However I think it may be something as simple as it being traditional Viera clothing. I don't think it's intended the way you mean it though
 
A strong female character for me, is someone whos femininity has nothing to do with capability.
I was going to say that a strong female character is someone whose gender should not be important. But I don't think thats right, as you don't need to deny gender to make men and women equal.

With Ashe, you say she is proving a point to herself. Fair enough if true, but then why does she sound so accusing to others when she talks about it? If her issue is with her own ability, and her own lack of confidence, then this is something which defines her character and therefore should be explored via the story and not merely left to think 'well maybe heres why'.

----

Aeris... I will agree that the lack of men is one explanation for why the viera wouldnt care what they wear but... Hunting needs???

Please explain how thongs are suitable to hunting needs... (and then submit this explanation to a hunting magazine so we can see lots of big, greasy men sporting thongs claiming that they are useful hunting tools :) )

Certainly no one in the hunters camp who is not a viera wears thongs...
 
Ashe has probably spent the years between Dalmasca's fall and the evnts of FFXII in hiding, and under constant lock and key, being told what she cannot do. When the rebellion finally becomes active, she fights for her kingdom and is 'freed' so to speak. By now she is sick of constantly being told not to do this and that. That's why she won't allow Basch or Ondore to even have to opportunity to tell her not to do something

It's unfair to say that Fran is wearing just a thong. The clothes that she wears are probably geared for hunting, because she isn't having to carry around the weight of clothes that a human would wear
 
Then now it just becomes a problem of shoddy script and characterisation rather than anti feminist then.

You say she 'probably' spent the last few years under lock and key being told what she cannot do. Someone else on the previous page said there are not any scenes when anyone does call her incapable or tell her what she cannot do.
So, all we are given by the game is her complaints... but all we have to show as for the reasons are 'probablies'. You think she was under lock and key. Her complaints suggest it is a reasonably important issue for her, but if the reasons for her anger are so ambiguous as to lead to two different conclusions, why include her anger at all???

Surely such character motivations should be important to anyone who cares about character/story?

--- I never meant to suggest that Fran ONLY wore a thong, just that the thong aspect of her outfit is the hardest to reconcile to being a functional wear for hunting.
 
By 'probably' I mean 'most likely'. For what we are given, it's safe to make that assumption. And just because her complaints are an important issue, that doesn't give us any different view on the previous few years of her life. You say it has led to two different conclusions, but what are these?

Again, I can't comment on Fran's clothing, but perhaps the thong gives less chaffing?
 
The two different conclusions are your interperatation of her being locked away, and the other is someone on the previous page who argues that there are no scenes in which we ever see Ashe being told she is incapable of doing a thing.
You say she has been locked away and told she cant do things. Another has said that there is no evidence of anyone suggesting she is incapable. These to me are two different conclusions which do not correlate...
 
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