[SPOILER] Jecht and Yu Yevon

Ultima-Griever

Ultima-Griever

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It is known for a fact that Jecht is a dream of the fayth, he's being summoned by Yu Yevon, therefore he has his own fayth which is one of those hundreds or even thousands of fayth dwelling at Mt. Gagazet. So, then, how could he himself, being a summoned creature, have become a fayth? He was not human. This is evidenced by the fact that, when the fayth awakens, Tidus starts disappearing, because his fayth departed to the Farplane. Fayth, however, are different from the regular Farplane souls: they have a mind and a will of their own, shown by the little kid who used to be Bahamut talking to Yuna, giving her advice on Shuyin and promising that they (the fayth) would do the best they could to bring Tidus back. Unless what became a fayth was Jecht's fayth? Then, how can a fayth go from one statue to another and shapeshift its dream?

Another question regards Yu Yevon and the fayth. Yu Yevon couldn't have created the fayth, because obviously there were events preceding his birth, or else how could have Zanarkand's technology been developed? And the summoners of that era inhabited Zanarkand, for the knowledge of creating fayth pertained to them. However, considering that summoners were on the road before Yu Yevon was born, how could all fayth have awaken?
 
As far as I recall the contact with Sin is what changed Jecht, he was no longer a dream quite like the rest, though not fully real either. Tidus after contact with Sin also had the same thing happen to him.

I'm not really sure what you are saying about Yevon and the fayth though
 
The fayth were the people of the real Zanarkand before Yu Yevon asked them to sacrifice themselves so that Zanarkand could live on. He used them to create Dream Zanarkand.
Jecht doesn't become a fayth.
 
Yes, Jecht becomes a fayth. He was the fayth for Braska's Final Aeon. How did he become such?

But it doesn't change the fact that Jecht's still a dream. It's the same thing as turning an aeon into a fayth for another aeon.
 
Jecht is not turned into a fayth, he becomes the final summon though he is never turned into a fayth himself. I can't actually recall what happens him after Yunalesca takes him, but it's not a fayth
 
Yunalesca clearly states that a guardian with a strong bond of friendship/love with the summoner has to become the fayth for the Final Summoning: a regular aeon as shown with Anima, but much stronger due to this bond. If Jecht hasn't become a fayth for Braska's Final Aeon, then Seymour's mother didn't become a fayth for Anima, and neither of the other high summoners' guardians became fayth for their respective Final Aeons, and that includes Lord Zaon, Yunalesca's husband, and we can see that there's a statue for him at the Dome's Chamber of the Fayth.
 
Jecht very much DOES become a fayth.

In one of the flashbacks in the Zanarkand Dome, he turns to Braska and says, "Make me a fayth."

Zaon even has a fayth statue.

So, oddly, does Seymour's mother: she also became a fayth of the Final Summoning for Seymour, but he refused to use her to defeat Sin and kept her as a tool when he grew up.

The game doesn't entirely explain this (although the Ultimania novel attempts to pave over one plot hole by saying Seymour secretly had Anima's fayth statue moved to Baaj when he was a young man).

One can assume either that the Final Summoning was a special case: Yunalesca created an especially powerful Aeon by using the soul of a still-living person who RETAINED a visible body (Jecht's body is obviously still solid, as he claps Auron on the shoulder on the way out with Braska in yet another flashback). This isn't that hard to believe, as pyreflies loan solidity to Jecht, Tidus, unsent like Auron, and even water in the blitz sphere. Alternatively, one can assume that the game simply didn't show the fayth statues for Jecht, Lady Yocun's fayth/companion, and those of Gandof and Ohalland. (This would also explain Lady Belgemine: she said she wasn't able to defeat Sin, and clearly died in the attempt, but the Magus Sisters are bally powerful -- I am pretty sure they are HER Final Aeon, not quite strong enough to defeat Sin, but still, much more powerful than standard temple aeons... just like Anima.)

Jecht's case is rather confusing, since he's actually a dream. But as other posters noted, he's become more than a dream. Like Tidus, he was "touched by Sin," and this somehow made him more solid, a real person instead of just a dream-hologram. Sin is a rather unusual aeon: armor crafted from the souls of the dead and made manifest and real. Apparently touching it did something of the same thing to Jecht. I think he was real enough to have a soul, and that's all that's really required to make a fayth.


There were summoners before Sin. Yu Yevon was the greatest of summoners. They had to have been summoning something! The Ultimania guide also says that in the ancient war between Bevelle and Zanarkand, Zanarkand actually had the edge in summoners (see: Lenne). Furthermore, the fayth in the Yevon temples (Ixion, Bahamut, etc) were actually taken from Zanarkand to Bevelle after Zanarkand lost the war: they are dead Zanarkand citizens, supposedly. If there had been war between Zanarkand and Bevelle for generations, it's possible the fayth were the souls of war victims or (more likely) brave volunteers who underwent a kamikaze mission (becoming a fayth) to protect their villages, their families, their nation from Bevelle with its superior technology.

And then, when Zanarkand was defeated, the whole population became fayths. Obviously, the rituals/process for becoming fayths was well-established before then, or they wouldn't have thought to do such a complicated thing to preserve a memory of their city in dreams.
 
Yu Yevon was, in fact, the greatest of summoners. It is mentioned in FFX-2 that Zanarkand had sent its summoners to the front lines, Lenne included. So that could mean that summoners were some kind of Zanarkand's warriors, and that they were provided with fayth by Yu Yevon and his daughter, Lady Yunalesca. What also intrigues me is that it is stated that fayth are everlasting souls, trapped in statues... Even if Yu Yevon died, the fayth must have had lingered on, even if there was no one to summon the fayth at Mt Gagazet, for instance, or even knew what they were or their actual purpose.
 
You are correct that the fayth could still have been summoned even with Yu Yevon died, but you are missing the point of X. The fayth has been dreaming for thousands upon thousands of years and want to stop, fairly certain they mean to move on to the far plane.

Yes it's stated that Bevelle used Machina in the war and Zanarkand countered with summons
 
Licky said:
You are correct that the fayth could still have been summoned even with Yu Yevon died, but you are missing the point of X. The fayth has been dreaming for thousands upon thousands of years and want to stop, fairly certain they mean to move on to the far plane.
Click to expand...

Well, yes, the fayth were tired of dreaming, but what stopped them from awakening then? Why precisely when Yu Yevon was defeated?
 
But why? Why is Yu Yevon so influential over the existence of fayth, seeing that there could be summoners before Yu Yevon? I mean, he was the creator of that multitude of the fayth at Mt. Gagazet, but that doesn't exactly qualify him as the supreme creator of fayth and shit. He was merely a twisted unsent: his only purpose was to summon Dream Zanarkand and mantain Sin. As was his daughter: another unsent waiting for the summoners who have supposedly completed their pilgrimages and craft for them fayth for their Final Summoning. Naturally, her fayth statues would lose their power once Yu Yevon had assimilated the soul of the fayth unto Sin. But how does that qualify Yu Yevon as mantainer of the fayth?
 
Ah icy what you mean now

Basically they were nearly all summoners in Zanarkand, and Yu Yevon was the most powerful and their leader

They were losing to Bevelle when they came up with the plan to turn everyone bar Yevon into a fayth ,and have him create Dream Zanarkand. Then he sent dream Zanarkand out to sea, and created Sin as his armour to defend it, as well as destroy any city that became to reliant on machina.

Eventually he lost control and sin just became a force of destruction, but the fayth could not suddenly stop being a fayth, they were a means to an end. They had to obey Yevon, they were a tool of a summoner nothing more regardless of what they once were.
 
Yu yevon was a corrupt bastard.

Combined with Yunalesca and zaeon he Used their souls to create Sin. He left Yunalesca there to guide the other summoner spread from his insane teaching to him.

Sin was made to destroy bevelle. and ONLY Bevelle. But Yu yevon lost his mind during the Summoning.

Now:

Yunalesca and Zaon Sacrificed themselves.

But there was no sacrifice for the original Sin. so Mister Yu yevon. Had to TRANSFORM himself into Sin.

He need another to take his place. Because He Needed to continue to fight bevelle. It's plausible that he mistook Zanarkand for bevelle. With all the machina and all. or Failed to wipe out Bevelles army.

Anyway. Zanarkand is destroyed and Yunalesca is Used my Yu yevon. In order to create a New Sin.

YU YEVON HASNT GOT A CLUE IF THE WAR IS OVER.

He is corrupt. unable to see the outside. He still thinks The war is ongoing. so he bends the FS Fayths/sacrifices. Making them get the urge to destroy. Which is why Sin just destroys random things. If Yu yevon could see that Bevelle was still standing He would just go fly over and destroy it.

Yu is BLIND. The Fayth is what controls Sin. He just gets them angry. Every time Sin destroys. Yu thinks its bevelle. and every time it returns. It hinks Bevelle has been rebulit.

Sin's Mission is just "Destroy bevelle" Thats it. but It dosent know Wether Bevelle is destroyed or not. So sin just destroys random things.

Now:

The summoners play right into Yu yevons trap.

Sacrifice themselves to stop Sin. this is what Yu yevon wants because he's corrupt. and likes to think that the war between bevelle and Zanarkand is still on going. So he sends Sin on a rampage. If bevelle was destroyed. He wouldnt know since all Yu yevon dose is just corrput Fayth.

Jecht became a fayth for Yu yevon. why: Because he basically gave up on returning to Zanarkand. so he decided to do the world a favor. and try to break the cycle from the inside. He failed.

*insert FFX Storyline here*

That Yevon religion crap? Thats a bunch of bullshit bought about by the people's deluded Idea of why Sin was brought here. In short. The Yevon religion is a lie. It's completely wrong.

The reason the fayth couldnt awaken is because Yu yevon was draining their energy Via Dream zanarkand/Farplane

TL;DR?

yu yevon became sin to fight bevelle.

He used Yunalesca to fight a battle that was lost.

Sin aims for bevelle. despite not knowing what its supposed to destroy.

Summoners play into yu yevons trap.

Jecht became a fayth because he gave up on returning to Zanarkand.

YEVON RELIGION IS A LIE

yu yevon drains energy from the sleeping fayth via Dream zanarkand/farplane


This is all in my own opinion of course. mized in with some true facts.(like how sin was created during the war with Bevelle) Since alot of this is guesswork
 
Garland said:
Yu yevon was a corrupt bastard.

Combined with Yunalesca and zaeon he Used their souls to create Sin. He left Yunalesca there to guide the other summoner spread from his insane teaching to him.

Sin was made to destroy bevelle. and ONLY Bevelle. But Yu yevon lost his mind during the Summoning.

Now:

Yunalesca and Zaon Sacrificed themselves.

But there was no sacrifice for the original Sin. so Mister Yu yevon. Had to TRANSFORM himself into Sin.

He need another to take his place. Because He Needed to continue to fight bevelle. It's plausible that he mistook Zanarkand for bevelle. With all the machina and all. or Failed to wipe out Bevelles army.

Anyway. Zanarkand is destroyed and Yunalesca is Used my Yu yevon. In order to create a New Sin.

YU YEVON HASNT GOT A CLUE IF THE WAR IS OVER.

He is corrupt. unable to see the outside. He still thinks The war is ongoing. so he bends the FS Fayths/sacrifices. Making them get the urge to destroy. Which is why Sin just destroys random things. If Yu yevon could see that Bevelle was still standing He would just go fly over and destroy it.

Yu is BLIND. The Fayth is what controls Sin. He just gets them angry. Every time Sin destroys. Yu thinks its bevelle. and every time it returns. It hinks Bevelle has been rebulit.

Sin's Mission is just "Destroy bevelle" Thats it. but It dosent know Wether Bevelle is destroyed or not. So sin just destroys random things.

Now:

The summoners play right into Yu yevons trap.

Sacrifice themselves to stop Sin. this is what Yu yevon wants because he's corrupt. and likes to think that the war between bevelle and Zanarkand is still on going. So he sends Sin on a rampage. If bevelle was destroyed. He wouldnt know since all Yu yevon dose is just corrput Fayth.

Jecht became a fayth for Yu yevon. why: Because he basically gave up on returning to Zanarkand. so he decided to do the world a favor. and try to break the cycle from the inside. He failed.

*insert FFX Storyline here*

That Yevon religion crap? Thats a bunch of bullshit bought about by the people's deluded Idea of why Sin was brought here. In short. The Yevon religion is a lie. It's completely wrong.

The reason the fayth couldnt awaken is because Yu yevon was draining their energy Via Dream zanarkand/Farplane

TL;DR?

yu yevon became sin to fight bevelle.

He used Yunalesca to fight a battle that was lost.

Sin aims for bevelle. despite not knowing what its supposed to destroy.

Summoners play into yu yevons trap.

Jecht became a fayth because he gave up on returning to Zanarkand.

YEVON RELIGION IS A LIE

yu yevon drains energy from the sleeping fayth via Dream zanarkand/farplane


This is all in my own opinion of course. mized in with some true facts.(like how sin was created during the war with Bevelle) Since alot of this is guesswork
Click to expand...

I read everything, sir. Yu Yevon was indeed corrupt, but there was a sacrifice for the first Sin: all who had died during the war. The dead became Sin and the living became fayth to keep Dream Zanarkand.

Sin was made to protect Dream Zanarkand, an actual city set far out at sea, from outsiders. It was created to halt advancement so that people wouldn't create machina capable of finding his city. Of course, it would be natural for Sin to destroy Bevelle firsthand, but then they cowered at him in utter fear of being obliterated and spread his teachings to quell his wrath. They never developed advanced machina anymore, although they still use their machina, and they are the "Heart of Yevon". Of course Yu Yevon liked it, it was as though Bevelle was giving up on the war. But still he would destroy other machina cities that had a massive population and perspectives of advancement, so that those would not become a threat just as Bevelle was.

Yevon's teachings are only there to support Sin and Dream Zanarkand. They are there so that Yu Yevon can keep summoning his beloved city uninterrupted and that no one would find it and harm it. He used Yunalesca to demonstrate that there was a means to stop Sin, even if temporarily, and then her unsent soul returned to Zanarkand where she waits for other summoners who are brave enough to do the same as she did.

Summoners do play as Yevon's marionettes. They just follow what he said and, in the end, their and their guardians' deaths would mean nothing, seeing as Sin would return a few years later.

Yu Yevon uses the multitude of the fayth at Gagazet to summon Zanarkand. That's why we see that string of water ascending and that's why Yuna says that someone is draining power from all those fayth.

My statements aren't guesswork. They are demonstrated in the game, stated by Maechen quite a lot of times and there are bits of it in FFX Ultimania. Oh, and let's not forget the fayth themselves, they give a fair insight on this part of FFX story.
 
Indeed.

However:

Zanarkands TRUE backstory is rather clouded. You need to guess in order to make sense of somethings HOWEVER. Most of my post is INDEED information taken from inside the game. so don't go calling me out on only opinionated answers. Only the things that were poorly explained were improvised on.

Sin was created to act as a weapon against bevelle. It was Yu yevons chance in order to defeat bevelle. He used the dead to do his dirty work. The teachings were not his teachings atall. actually. Read below for more.

Sin was made to protect ZANARKAND. not DREAM ZANARKAND. At that point in time. Dream Zanarkand didnt exsist. When Sin came. the Zanarkanians ran and created DZ.

Allthough after Zanarkand went Kaput Sin was meant to protect DZ Also.

All the summoners played into what Yu yevon wanted. Yevon wanted to use Sin as a mechanism against bevelle. Maechen said this.

You asked why the Fayth can't just wake up. I responded.

If they woke up DZ=Ciao.

Ands o would Sin Remember: JECHT=SIN if they woke up Sin would vanish. Would Yu yevon want that?

and anyway: The FS sacrifices? Yeah THEIR FAYTH. they drain energy out of DZ too.

Plus The Majority of the fayth probably don't know whats the hell is going on. only the Summon's fayth do. If they all wanted to stop. they would stop. weather or not Someitng is draining their power.

Yevons teachings is a convulted mess of Crap created by the Maesters of spira. This was basically Bevelles way of "Gaining control" Yevon is all lies. lies and slander. This is proved mutiple times throughout FFX and FFX-2. Maechen also says that The MAesters had quite a time keeping the fact that the "CREATOR OF YEVON" was actually aginst His own religion. Yu yevon's Teachings were basically: You have created a sin by waging war."

The "MACHINA ARE BAD >: (" state of mind? That was what the maesters thought Sin was brought here for. Yu yevon never really had teachings. BEVELLE Did. He didnt really.


From waht we know their were only three Machina cities. Zanarkand,Bevelle,and the one unamed city that sunk into the Moonflow. Sin only destroyed Zanarkand. upon accident I belive.

Yu yevon May have wanted to have sin be used as a Mediator. but as Yu yevon was Pro Zanarkand. and proved my MAechen.. Sin was out to get Bevelle.

(also my overuse of cap words= me trying to get a important point notified and seen)
 
I never mentioned Zanarkand's backstory or how it really was, its history, nothing like this. I just mentioned how Zanarkand was during the Machina War, which is all that is stated in-game, and other things that are also stated in game and in FFX-2.

Sin was created after Dream Zanarkand. Its purpose was to protect Dream Zanarkand and destroy the original Zanarkand so Yu Yevon wouldn't have it destroyed by Bevelle AND for Bevelle to witness the power that could be used against them.

Maechen said that Bevelle was afraid of Yu Yevon once they witnessed the ruins that had been Zanarkand: he never says anything about Sin being created to attack Bevelle or sth like that. And it was obvious why they would be afraid of him: they were in war, and Sin utterly destroyed Zanarkand, which was already completely empty, for all of its citizens and surviving summoners became the fayth. No one died during the attack: they were already dead prior to the attack. And the troops who found out about Sin, have seen the ruins and the thousands of fayth at Gagazet reported in and there was fear over Yu Yevon obliterating Bevelle. But he had plans for Bevelle. He would subject Bevelle to the humiliation of worshipping him and spreading his religion to all the peoples of Spira, and that's when Yunalesca does her part.

The Final Aeons don't draw energy from Dream Zanarkand. They are fayth who dream of their respective aeons: no more else. Each fayth dreams of something and, when a summoner calls upon them, their dream is manifested through pyreflies. Each of Dream Zanarkand's buildings, people... Each one of those are individual dreams of every single fayth at Gagazet. The fayth at temples and the Final Aeon have nothing to do with them, apart of that they are also fayth.

Yevon's teachings were elaborated by Yu Yevon and Yunalesca so that they could effectively mantain their city in secrecy. Zanarkand was a hell of a big and bustling city which would certainly draw attention even if seen from afar: Yu Yevon had to avoid that. So he and his daughter elaborated the teachings and she basically put everything on the table so that Bevelle could decide: it was either spread those teachings and be spared; or refuse to do so and Bevelle becomes a wasteland. And they go for the first option. It was all planned by Yu Yevon and Yunalesca.

The teachings state that Sin was created because war was raging and people were using machina to kill. The "MACHINA IS BAD ):<" stuff was just so that people wouldn't develop technology that would allow them to find Dream Zanarkand. Imagine how it would become hell there if everyone knew about it, not to mention that everything Yevon was doing would lose all purpose.

There were only three machina cities: Bevelle, Zanarkand and the unnamed city that sunk in the Moonflow. At the time Zanarkand was destroyed, Yu Yevon was alive and in control of Sin, and he destroyed his city, which was no longer more than concrete, for the population was already fayth.

Summoners were reduced to people who believed in such teachings and wanted to inspire hope on people and bring some peace. They'd sacrifice a beloved one to create the Final Aeon (in the end, a package of pyreflies) and then would die themselves upon summoning the Final Aeon during the clash with Sin.

Of course Yu Yevon was pro-Zanarkand. He was Zanarkand's ruler and loved his city so much that he created an almost identical copy of it and set it far out at sea where no one would be able to find it, harm anyone and wage war against it again. That's why he did what he did: for the sake of his city.
 
I originally believed Sin was created as a weapon of vengeance by Yu Yevon, but I've come to question that based on small details in the game and Ultimania guides.

In-game Bahamut's fayth implies that Yu Yevon has become fairly mindless, and is using Sin merely as a means of survival (by knocking out any concentration of people or technology that might be strong enough to defeat Sin...such as, oh, an airship from 1000 years ago!)

Bahamut says:

"Yu Yevon was once a summoner, long ago. He was peerless.
Yet now he lives for one purpose: only to summon.
He is neither good, nor evil. He is awake, yet he dreams." -- Bahamut telling Yuna and Tidus about Yu Yevon​

That doesn't rule out his having designed Sin as an implement of vengeance, but it suggests he's prolonged his existence to the point that he really has become nothing but the act of summoning itself, without much other conscious thought left.

The UOG seems to imply that Yu Yevon did NOT design Sin for vengeance, but to protect Dream-Zanarkand so that at least a facsimile of the city would continue.

See many excerpt from the Ultimania Omega Guide in pmog's translations, such as:

"It is generally said that Sin bears malice towards mankind and machina civilisations. This is a story that was naturally told since Sin destroyed machina civilisations in the past, and constantly attacks settlements of people. It is unclear as to whether this is actually true or not."​


Furthermore, the timeline and Yunalesca's Story make the surprising suggestion that Yu Yevon and Yunalesca were NOT behind so-called Yevon's Teachings: that was invented by the new church of Yevon to control the people, using them as convenient religious symbols. Yunalesca really was trying to maintain Spira's hope, so when she first learned of the new "Yevon's Teachings," it was close enough to what she wanted to happen that she simply played along:


"The doctrine of Yevon's teachings, which encourages stagnation and places hope in the Final Summoning, is virtually identical to what she advocates. Also, through receiving visits from those seeking the Final Summoning and seeing them speak of the teachings and hope, she comes to clearly learn of the teachings' contents and moreover, wishes for the people to follow them. In fact, without the teachings Yunalesca's ideals wouldn't have become widespread." -- from "Yunalesca's Story"​

Also see the part on the founding of the Church of Yevon:

These teachings originated in Bevelle after Sin's first rebirth, and soon spread all throughout the world...​

And again, in the section on "What is Sin?"

"Explaining Sin to be both a punishment dealt to mankind for relying on machina as well as a symbol of their sins, the Yevon Temples recommend the prohibition of machina and advise the people to atone for their sins."​


But this is all getting off-topic from the very interesting question: why did the Fayth Wall (and for that matter, the aeons of the Yevon Temples?) turn to stone and lose their fayth when Yu Yevon was destroyed? It really is fairly simultaneous: Yu Yevon dies and dissolves, and then Yuna performs what appears to be a planet-wide sending bidding farewell to all the aeons (I don't think she's sending them, simply saying goodbye). Bahamut's fayth asked Tidus to let them sleep.

The aeons of Yevon's temples might be bound in some way that they have to exist as long as Sin is a threat, though this isn't spelled out: it's their calling and duty after all (even if some seem to have predated Sin, they were pressed into that job).

The Fayth of Mount Gagazet were turned into fayth for Yu Yevon's grand design. His purpose was twofold: (a) to continue to exist and (b) to maintain a simulation of Dream Zanarkand. Sin was constructed for both purposes: as a vehicle for his self-perpetuation, and as Dream Zanarkand's defender (by destroying anything in Spira that got too powerful, keeping settlements small and technologically weak). It seems to me the answer to the riddle is that all the fayth, even more than unsent, were bound to the purpose that made them a fayth in the first place: unlike unsent, they couldn't lose their way and turn into fiends; they were bound in stone, frozen and stuck by the ritual that made them. Only when their purpose was fulfilled -- or the one who bound them to it was gone -- were they free to let go.

It's odd, though, that they asked Tidus to let them stop dreaming. I think they were simply asking for his help, and/or apologizing because it might destroy him.

I'm not sure how many of the design team of FFX were left for FFXIII, but there's a somewhat similar trope in that game -- you know how certain motifs and themes appear in FF games again and again. Trying to avoid spoilers, I will simply point out that in that story, as well, there's a status quo set in motion by an ancient conflict between two sides, and it turns out the fayth, er, summons, er, fal'Cie (yeah, a higher order of being) can't do certain things or step outside their assigned roles: they need humans to do it for them. It seems as if the fayth in FFX have the same problem.

The living can institute change. The dead in Final Fantasy X can continue to exist, but only as stasis, stagnation, unchanging cycles.


TL;DR, in spades, eh?
 
Ok you seem to have most of it down, it's those cunt bag guides that appear to be throwing you off

Yevon did indeed create Sin in order to protect Dream Zanarkand but also with the directive to destroy any city that became too large or advanced with machina

Then as bahamut's fayth said he slowly lost all consciousness, Sin became a vessel of pure destruction ignoring it's directives completely. Except when Jecht fused with it, he managed to keep part of himself for a long time, which is what caused Sin to attack dream Zanarkand etc.
 
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