Root for the underdog! (Making a case for FFXII's plot)

[Summoner Yuna]

So, I feel like the general sentiment around the FF community (not especifically FFF) is that FFXII's plot is poor, but I'd have to disagree for the following reasons:

1. FF's characters are more refined than a lot of other FF characters. If I may, I'll draw a comparison with FFVIII. People say that FFXII's characters are underdeveloped but compared to FFVIII's they're great. FFVIII has the dumbest plot twist in the history of ever by giving each character except Rinoa the same background. Squall's character development is so skewed that it can hardly be considered proper character development. Furthermore his reasons for having an antisocial personality come off as lame. In this I have to wholeheartedly agree with Contra Fates's analysis in the "FFVIII's bad reputation thread." Instead the characters of FFXII face actual moral dilemmas and decisions.

Spoiler

Would Ashe take revenge against the Empire using nethicite or would she make the right choice?

FFXII's theme of freedom is pulled off quite well while FFVIII's theme of love come's off as lame. Why is that? Because you actually see the characters in FFXII being affected directly in their lives by the main antagonist (The Empire and Vayne). Each character, though I'll agree some more than others, has something important to do with the plot (except Penelo and Vaan, but at least she has a motive to join the party, although one that many NPC's could have, but at least it's something). Instead half the cast of FVIII play second fiddle to Rinoa and Squall. Characters like Basch and Balthier are fully fleshed out.

Spoiler

What Balthier did in the final FMV is a great testament to his character

Fran is also an interesting character although they could've done more with her. Well, that's it for the main characters.

The villains were also quite compelling with quite original motives that go beyond "I wanna conquer the world because I'm evil". I've mentioned this but I'll mention it again. Vayne is a Maquiavellian ruler who, even though he believes in democracy, will resort to an almost dictatorship regime if need be to achieve his goals. And the villains actually do something in this game, you actually see them getting their hands dirty to achieve what they want, unlike Ultimecia which remains a shadowy figure until the very final disc.

The Occuria, although a great idea because they help push forward the theme of freedom the story is trying to convey quite nicely (love the idea of a tyrannical race) are introduced too late and too suddenly in the game, which makes it both a strength and a weakness in the plot.

And now finally the theme. Every FF (and story in general) has a theme they try to convey. FFXII's was freedom and by blurring the lines between good and evil it comes off stronger than in most FF's (well except maybe FFX and FFVII). Venat was trying to help Vayne free humanity from the Occuria but in turn he became the new tyrant. So, what good is to break free from one tyrant if it's gonna be replaced with another? A theme quite mature for a video game. And, just for kicks, since FF likes to draw references from actual mythology then why not make another comaprison. FFXII's plot share's similarities with the greek myth of Prometheus in that humanity was ruled by a tyranical race of gods. But the twist the FFX introduces is that the person that is trying to free humanity from is a tyrant himself. This twist is the most interesting part of the theme in FFXII's plot.

So that is my defense of FFXII's plot. So agree or disagree if you like.

 

[Icarus]

...Wow. I agree with you. No matter what people say, FFXII will always be my favorite game.

Spoiler

I never really got what the point of the Occuria was. Could you explain their purpose please?

 

[Donald Trump]

So, I feel like the general sentiment around the FF community (not especifically FFF) is that FFXII's plot is poor, but I'd have to disagree for the following reasons:

1. FF's characters are more refined than a lot of other FF characters. If I may, I'll draw a comparison with FFVIII. People say that FFXII's characters are underdeveloped but compared to FFVIII's they're great. FFVIII has the dumbest plot twist in the history of ever by giving each character except Rinoa the same background. Squall's character development is so skewed that it can hardly be considered proper character development. Furthermore his reasons for having an antisocial personality come off as lame. In this I have to wholeheartedly agree with Contra Fates's analysis in the "FFVIII's bad reputation thread." Instead the characters of FFXII face actual moral dilemmas and decisions.

Spoiler

Would Ashe take revenge against the Empire using nethicite or would she make the right choice?

FFXII's theme of freedom is pulled off quite well while FFVIII's theme of love come's off as lame. Why is that? Because you actually see the characters in FFXII being affected directly in their lives by the main antagonist (The Empire and Vayne). Each character, though I'll agree some more than others, has something important to do with the plot (except Penelo and Vaan, but at least she has a motive to join the party, although one that many NPC's could have, but at least it's something). Instead half the cast of FVIII play second fiddle to Rinoa and Squall. Characters like Basch and Balthier are fully fleshed out.

Spoiler

What Balthier did in the final FMV is a great testament to his character

Fran is also an interesting character although they could've done more with her. Well, that's it for the main characters.

The villains were also quite compelling with quite original motives that go beyond "I wanna conquer the world because I'm evil". I've mentioned this but I'll mention it again. Vayne is a Maquiavellian ruler who, even though he believes in democracy, will resort to an almost dictatorship regime if need be to achieve his goals. And the villains actually do something in this game, you actually see them getting their hands dirty to achieve what they want, unlike Ultimecia which remains a shadowy figure until the very final disc.

The Occuria, although a great idea because they help push forward the theme of freedom the story is trying to convey quite nicely (love the idea of a tyrannical race) are introduced too late and too suddenly in the game, which makes it both a strength and a weakness in the plot.

And now finally the theme. Every FF (and story in general) has a theme they try to convey. FFXII's was freedom and by blurring the lines between good and evil it comes off stronger than in most FF's (well except maybe FFX and FFVII). Venat was trying to help Vayne free humanity from the Occuria but in turn he became the new tyrant. So, what good is to break free from one tyrant if it's gonna be replaced with another? A theme quite mature for a video game. And, just for kicks, since FF likes to draw references from actual mythology then why not make another comaprison. FFXII's plot share's similarities with the greek myth of Prometheus in that humanity was ruled by a tyranical race of gods. But the twist the FFX introduces is that the person that is trying to free humanity from is a tyrant himself. This twist is the most intersting part of the theme in FFXII's plot.

So that is my defense of FFXII's plot. So agree or disagree if you like.

Hypocracy much?
You go in depth with FFXII's plot and then contrast it to a superficial summary of VIII.
Firstly, Squall's chaaracter is developed, we see him change. His attitude towards his friends and the responsibility forced on him. Shall we compare that to Vaan?
"Empire killed my brother, I want an adventure." Absolute bullshit as far as development or even being interesting. A stapler would have been just as good as Vaan.
Balthier is so overrated. He hates his dad, doesn't reconcile with him even though Cid is doing a noble thing. Balthier runs away from responsibility. He saves Rabanastre, so what? SE try to make him into a martyr by doing this great deed. But he doesn't even die. It's like how James Bond always escapes from impending death in almost impossible ways. At least they are taken seriously, but SE go 'zOMG BALTHIER HE R D BEST'.
You cannot do that. He should have dies.
Basch is a pathetic character, SE being lazy. At least there is a modicum of originality in Balthier, not much, but a little.
Basch is Archetype. That is useless, nothing unless it doesn't take itself seriously should have Archetypes, especially FFXII, with its pseudo-serious mature plot and themes.

We know the game is about self-determination. Who wins?
The side of oppression. So unless you are trying to tell me that FFXII is about the perpetuation of oppression, the plot fails.

Also the plot IS NOT the themes of the game.

 

[Summoner Yuna]

Hypocracy much?
You go in depth with FFXII's plot and then contrast it to a superficial summary of VIII.
Firstly, Squall's chaaracter is developed, we see him change. His attitude towards his friends and the responsibility forced on him. Shall we compare that to Vaan?
"Empire killed my brother, I want an adventure." Absolute bullshit as far as development or even being interesting. A stapler would have been just as good as Vaan.
Balthier is so overrated. He hates his dad, doesn't reconcile with him even though Cid is doing a noble thing. Balthier runs away from responsibility. He saves Rabanastre, so what? SE try to make him into a martyr by doing this great deed. But he doesn't even die. It's like how James Bond always escapes from impending death in almost impossible ways. At least they are taken seriously, but SE go 'zOMG BALTHIER HE R D BEST'.
You cannot do that. He should have dies.
Basch is a pathetic character, SE being lazy. At least there is a modicum of originality in Balthier, not much, but a little.
Basch is Archetype. That is useless, nothing unless it doesn't take itself seriously should have Archetypes, especially FFXII, with its pseudo-serious mature plot and themes.

We know the game is about self-determination. Who wins?
The side of oppression. So unless you are trying to tell me that FFXII is about the perpetuation of oppression, the plot fails.

Also the plot IS NOT the themes of the game.

Let me go more in depth with FFVIII to further help my case. When I say Squall's character development is skewed I mean that it was too sudden. Irvine and Quistis had to slap sense into Squall during the battle of the Gardens, because he didn't freaking want to save Rinoa. He spends most of the game shutting her off and then after the Ragnarok he magically falls madly in love with her. Not in the least believable. I'm not saying people can't change, but something as sudden as this comes off as just because the plot needed Squall to change at that exact moment. Too convenient perhaps?
I'm not saying Vaan is the best developed character ever. I'm not even saying he's the most developed character in the series or FFXII itself. But at least he was a consistent character and what little character development he got was good

Spoiler

especially at the end of Pharos

and also

Spoiler

in Jahara

He lost his whole family yet you don't see him whine like Squall because he "lost his sis". Vaan is a bit more realistic than Squall in this respect. Although I'll give you that Squall never knew who his parents was, but he still had a mother figure in Edea (before she became a sorceress) and a bunch of other friends. He wasn't really alone. Vaan had NOBODY except Penelo, who also lost her friggin' parents. Everything Vaan cherished was taken away from him. If that's not a motivation or at least a decent background, then please enlighten me. Comparing Vaan to a stapler is big exaggeration, I believe.
As for Basch, how is he an archetype? I'll give you that he is the "serene warrior type", but if anything he fills a mentor role and a very good one at that. He was the oldest of the group so it's only natural he fills this role. Also, he had an interesting backstory and connection to the Empire, while other characters like Zell and Irvine in FFVIII are pretty much devoid of any interesting backstory. Irvine at least has a bit of relevance to the plot because of the whole revelation thing at Trabia (which was stupid in my opinion).
On to Balthier. Another character that has relevance to the plot because of his connection with Doctor Cid, who is a pivotal character in later parts of the game and he himself has an interesting connection with Empire. Though I'll grant you that a cutscene or two explaining a bit more of this backstory would've been good and improve the plot. Again, what did characters like Selphie and Irvine do in FFVIII? Play second fiddle to Squall's and Rinoa's sappy love story.

As for the theme, I never said the theme was the plot, but it plays an important part. And I prefer FFXII's theme to that of FVIII. And with that, I'm done.

 

[Donald Trump]

Let me go more in depth with FFVIII to further help my case. When I say Squall's character development is skewed I mean that it was too sudden. Irvine and Quistis had to slap sense into Squall during the battle of the Gardens, because he didn't freaking want to save Rinoa. He spends most of the game shutting her off and then after the Ragnarok he magically falls madly in love with her. Not in the least believable. I'm not saying people can't change, but something as sudden as this comes off as just because the plot needed Squall to change at that exact moment. Too convenient perhaps?

Rinoa falling into a coma and her being taken away act as catalysts for Squall's rapid development.

I'm not saying Vaan is the best developed character ever. I'm not even saying he's the most developed character in the series or FFXII itself. But at least he was a consistent character and what little character development he got was good especially at the end of Pharos and also in Jahara He lost his whole family yet you don't see him whine like Squall because he "lost his sis". Vaan is a bit more realistic than Squall in this respect. Although I'll give you that Squall never knew who his parents was, but he still had a mother figure in Edea (before she became a sorceress) and a bunch of other friends. He wasn't really alone. Vaan had NOBODY except Penelo, who also lost her friggin' parents. Everything Vaan cherished was taken away from him. If that's not a motivation or at least a decent background, then please enlighten me. Comparing Vaan to a stapler is big exaggeration, I believe

Vaan had Reks, Penelo and all the other orphans and Migelo helped to look after him.
Squall never has anyone, he isn't at the orphanage long, and the only person he forms an attachment to leaves.
Reks looks after Vaan for most of his life.

As for Basch, how is he an archetype? I'll give you that he is the "serene warrior type", but if anything he fills a mentor role and a very good one at that. He was the oldest of the group so it's only natural he fills this role. Also, he had an interesting backstory and connection to the Empire, while other characters like Zell and Irvine in FFVIII are pretty much devoid of any interesting backstory. Irvine at least has a bit of relevance to the plot because of the whole revelation thing at Trabia (which was stupid in my opinion).
On to Balthier. Another character that has relevance to the plot because of his connection with Doctor Cid, who is a pivotal character in later parts of the game and he himself has an interesting connection with Empire. Though I'll grant you that a cutscene or two explaining a bit more of this backstory would've been good and improve the plot. Again, what did characters like Selphie and Irvine do in FFVIII? Play second fiddle to Squall's and Rinoa's sappy love story.

Personally I'd rather have two interesting backstories than 5 or 6 cliched backstories. Which is what the characters of FFXII have.
I've already explained that the love story is only sappy if viewed superficially.

FFVIII's theme is fate and pre-determination, it isn't as readily accessible as FFXII's. But that makes it better, it is subtle and clever compared to FFXII's brutally in your face theme.

 

[Summoner Yuna]

Hmm, I guess that you and I have different tastes when it comes how we like stories to unfold. I like my stories to be as explicit with their themes as possible, saying what they want to convey instead of going around it. It just makes the story feel more complete. Maybe that's why I didn't enjoy FFVIII's story as much because it doesn't take care in developing its theme or conveying something meaningful. Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to my own. I don't hate FFVIII I just feel that if it had been scripted better I could've felt more attached to the story. But I understand your point and respect, though I must disagree that I find FFXII's characters stories clichéd. Well, at least not much although there are certain themes and stuff that are quite similar to other stories in other media (Star Wars comes to mind).

 

[Icarus]

what is the point of the occuria? When do they come into the story?

 

[Donald Trump]

The Occuria are the gods that control Ivalice. You meet them in the great crystal, Venat is a also an Occurian.
You know in the list of all the things you've killed it has information about Ivalice, when they talk about the gods they talk about the Occuria.

The point is that the Occuria control the lives of everyone in Ivalice, effectively robbing them of choice. They manipulate life in Ivalice so that what happens is what they want to happen.
However it doesn't explain why they want to control everything. Though it seems likely that they enjoy the power that comes from being gods.

 

[Icarus]

Oh. So The Undying is just Vayne with his shirt torn off and an Occuria on his back?

 

[Grand Lethal]

I think they're "self proclaimed" gods, not officially gods, but because of their power they say they're the gods of Ivalice, ruling fate and the lives of those within Ivalice as they see fit. (Don't hold me to this, I'm probably wrong.)

I personally agree with Summoner Yuna. I've always thought that XII's plot and characters were underrated. I know the plot and characters could've been fleshed out a whole lot more, but for what they are I think they're quite good.