Protesters descend on Ground Zero for anti-mosque demonstration

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

So we do that and American soldiers are terrible monsters.

My point entirely, it's not right to generalise the actions of so few to represent the entire force. The same can be said about Islamic extremists, is it fair to generalise their actions to represent the whole of the Muslim community? No.

 

[The Witch]

My point entirely, it's not right to generalise the actions of so few to represent the entire force. The same can be said about Islamic extremists, is it fair to generalise their actions to represent the whole of the Muslim community? No.

No, you're right. But what about if their Qur'an says it?

Ugh, forget it. I don't feel like hurting some cool peoples feelings because my opinion on a subject. I'd rather have the nice relationships I have with people here intact.

 

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

No, you're right. But what about if their Qur'an says it?

Ugh, forget it. I don't feel like hurting some cool peoples feelings because my opinion on a subject. I'd rather have the nice relationships I have with people here intact.

Then I suppose if the Qur'an says it, then the Qur'an says it. I don't know enough about religion to form an open debate about what it does and does not say However, I very much doubt that the large majority of Muslims are "evil" thus, whatever their religion states, they should not be treated as such.

 

[The Witch]

Then I suppose if the Qur'an says it, then the Qur'an says it. I don't know enough about religion to form an open debate about what it does and does not say However, I very much doubt that the large majority of Muslims are "evil" thus, whatever their religion states, they should not be treated as such.

Okay, well the Qur'an does say it. But you're right, I'm sure not all Muslims follow the violent parts that say to "terrorize" or "kill" disbelievers. But what are we to think when we read the Qur'an and see that stuff?

That's all I'm tryin' to say. Of course not all Muslims want to kill us but there are large portions that do.

I am fully with Muslims having Mosques anywhere in America--just not near Ground Zero. For respect of us, the victims, lets respect what makes them feel uncomfortable and move their Mosque elsewhere.

If the Muslim community really wants to make non-Muslims more comfortable, their kindness and respect for others will be well known if they, the Islamic New York Community, asks in the most respectful way for their future Mosque to be built in a less nightmarish area.

I know for a fact, if I start hearing New York Muslims(or any) ask for this Mosque to be moved somewhere else more and more groups of non-Islamic people will start to have a kinder view of them.

Who knows, if Islamic groups do this it could very well build a bridge between them and the non-Islamics.

 

[Kei]

I'm sorry but I will reply to Terra's post, I just can't help it. ._.

@Terra:
First of all, I did say read the historical events related to the verses you keep showing, yet it's obvious you didn't read them (while you said you did) due to your reply to another verses after. (Yes, I know when people don't read clearly, I've read too much into the historical events related to verse, and that's enough explains as it's not a reason to kill it was a time of war with Makkans, who wanted to eliminate the Muslim religion)

Second of all, If you want to call me a liar go ahead, I don't mind. You think "Christianity" is a perfect religion. Christian people "here" do kill their children if they convert and don't give me that crap about: the Bible and what not says "Be Kind etc", because Muslims got the EXACT same thing in the 2nd source for judgments "Hadith", like I mentioned but you never bothered to read I guess.

Again, to all quoting a verse, please go back and dig for the historical event related to it.

Terra, understand this please, I know about Muslims more than you've ever known, I lived among them for about 18 years, please don't go around and start talking shit about them because, I swear to you, you don't know anything about this matter.

By the way, it's not easy for Soldiers to pin Arabic language, Arabic is probably one of the hardest languages ever. and the Arabic of Qur'an is classified the HIGHEST level of Arabic, you think someone who learned a couple of words in a month would translate it good?

So over 60+ known translations and my own, are poor translations? How can so many translations, mostly done by Muslims themselves, be poor?

How the translation provided differs from yours? Simple, see "(in fight)" part? You missed that in your translations, didn't you? Translations by Muslims themselves includes the part you missed.

I'm not trying to make a bad relationship with you, as I hate people to hate me... but hating someone automatically and denying their good intents is really disturbing. No, even go as far as to say "This is Muslim" and "This is not", are you "Allah" to start throwing that? No, I guess not. For your information, Islam is flexible, AKA what was back in the old times applicable but can't be done in the modern times then it's left. Again, I say I listed how rules are, I also listed how "Fighting for Allah" goes. Yet you turn your eye away. I don't think that ANYONE will ever change your opinion, not even the highest knowledgeable people of Islam.

Of course, your video proof is flaccid because that guy doesn't represent Muslims, he represents ONLY himself. When you see a highly known person and knowledgeable in Islam OTHER than Bin Ladin saying the stuff that guy said, I'll apologize for this.

I repeat there's no word in Qur'an that says "Terrorize" the only one used that might be considered was "scare" and it was directed at the Muslims, the ones who will try to betray you as mentioned in the Qur'an commentaries.

Let's go to your comments on the verses: (I cba quoting)

1st reply to [5:51] comment: They ARE wrong, point proven in commentaries, it meant to take the Jewish as protectors for them because they were low on number and the Makkans wanted to eliminate them. (Another proof you've never read the commentaries/the historical events behind each verse)

2nd reply to [60:8] comment: The hell? Did you even read it?

"God does not forbid that you should deal kindly and justly with those who do not fight you for the sake of [your] religion or drive you out of your homes. Truly, God loves those who are just." [60:8]

The ones who don't fight you because you're a Muslim, it's not just because the one who believes in Allah, if he believes in Allah that makes him a Muslim and doesn't make included in the verse.

3rd reply to [41:34] comment:

"The good deed and the evil deed are not equal. Repel [the evil deed] with one that is better. Then truly the one, between you and he is enmity, shall become as a bosom friend." [41:34]

Read the explanation of this verse. This means If someone treats you bad, don't treat him with the same, treat him with a good deed, so you the ones who had between you enmity become friends.

If you're not convinced with what I said, I can't say anything more to you. Takes a lot more than a video of someone, and the action of a few to understand what a religion is. Dig more because I'm sure you looked at it only from above.

(My Apologies for this but I'm merely frustrated by the ignorance I've seen so far)

 

[The Witch]

I suggest if you want this to stay alive you don't talk about ignorance.

Well, I'm done here anyways.

Peace.

 

[.Ted]

Its not my fault what the Qu'ran says.
And hey, if your Muslim friends don't kill you, then they aren't Muslim. They are something else.

/facepalm

So you mean to tell us the thousands, perhaps maybe millions, of Muslims we have in the U.S. are not real Muslims, but something else? If they want to be true Muslims, then they would have to exterminate the very country that's granting them the freedom to practice their religion.

All I am saying is, there can't be any peaceful Muslims. Muslim is a term to call the followers of Allah, and if you guys had actually read the Qu'ran (instead your interpretations, assumptions and words from someone who could be "lying") than you would realize what it says. because Allah, and I don't know how many times I must provide this, says that if you don't follow EVERYTHING the Qu'ran says, then you are not a child of his faith.

But you are interpreting the Qu'ran as well with what your own mind is telling you. Since we can't trust the interpretations from anyone -- even from a true Muslim -- how can I trust what you are saying?

It's like how people interpret the Book of Revelation. Jehovah Witnesses believe that only 144,000 people will go to Heaven. Others take it literally. And finally, there are others who believe, since it was written during the first millennium, it could have been talking about the persecution of Christians from Rome (during the time of Nero Caesar, maybe?).

You're calling an entire religion "evil" based on what some lunatics did and from your own interpretation of a book. If you say you're doing it in God's name (I doubt you will, but I personally met many people who would), your judgment will only give Him a bad rep. If you say '"It's what the Qu'ran says", then why are the millions of Muslims living in America not killing people like Al Qaeda is doing? Is this truly what you believe? Did your decision to believe that all true Muslims are murderers come from you, or from someone else?

To me, even Muslims are brothers, no matter how hostile they are. They don't have the same beliefs as I do. Yet I would stand up for them if a mob of Americans would want their heads on a platter (and perhaps mine for siding with Muslims). Matthew 5:44 (New Testament, btw) specifically states that we should love our enemies, and it sure doesn't mention any exceptions. (Most of you here are sure making Muslims look like the enemies here, so I had to say it.) If you're not Christian and are not interested in reading that verse, don't do it, as you have your own reasons for distrusting Muslims. I just expected the Christians here to know better.

That's why I'm tolerant enough to let the New York Muslims do as they please. If they want to build a mosque close to Ground Zero, let them. All I'm seeing is them trying to build a place for worship, nothing else. Simple as that. I do not know their true intentions, so why jump to conclusions? And if it really has to come down to voting, let's do it. The majority always wins anyway. This is a democracy, after all. Right?

 

[Saints&Storms]

3rd reply to [41:34] comment:
Read the explanation of this verse. This means If someone treats you bad, don't treat him with the same, treat him with a good deed, so you the ones who had between you enmity become friends.

Okay not that I am jumping on the Muslims, cause everyone is innocent until proven guilty, or every one is guilty until proven innocent -- But if what you claim is so, why do women get beaten if their veil falls? Why are American soldiers dying every day in Iraq because of roadside bombings if Muslims are so peacful?

Yes, I know America 'shouldn't' be over there, but they are, and now they are being killed even when they aren't in battle. We have to go with statistics here okay? Yes, not all Muslims are violent, but a majority want to fucking kill anyone who doesn't bow before their god, or did the South Park Creators get imaginary threats

And have you ever heard of the teenaged girl who was stoned to death for being raped? Its not like she died from one stone being thrown at her.

How does this quote:

"The good deed and the evil deed are not equal. Repel [the evil deed] with one that is better. Then truly the one, between you and he is enmity, shall become as a bosom friend." [41:34]

Say not to kill for the sake of you religion, it certainly does NOT combat with the violent ones that have been posted. It definitely doesn't say "Don't kill in the name of Allah or Muhammed." and if so why the FUCK did 9/11 happen? And what the fuck are the muslims doing hiding Osama Bin Laden? He definitely isn't hiding from the American Government (or who ever the hells looking for him) by his fuckin self.

"God does not forbid that you should deal kindly and justly with those who do not fight you for the sake of [your] religion or drive you out of your homes. Truly, God loves those who are just." [60:8]

Its saying right here 'god' doesn't say not to not be violent, but you still can be.


Watch this video, not a few seconds of it ALL of it.

Thats a lot of mutherfuckin "Extremist", if you ask me.

Now, I will say this once and only once, I am not saying ALL muslims are Violent, for there are those that say "I want to follow my religion but I won't go to extreme measures", but a majority will do this. /facepalm, facepalm, facepalm

 

[Rydia]

Okay not that I am jumping on the Muslims, cause everyone is innocent until proven guilty, or every one is guilty until proven innocent -- But if what you claim is so, why do women get beaten if their veil falls? Why are American soldiers dying every day in Iraq because of roadside bombings if Muslims are so peacful?

Just wanted to respond to this

Those are muslims in the middle east, which is only about 20% of the world's muslim population. 60% of muslims live in Asia with Indonesia being the country with the highest muslim population in the world. And it's more of the taliban using the religion as a method of control. I bet if those terrorist organizations were christian, the attacks would still happen and those religions would be used as a method of control.

From what I learn in college, the veils, or hijab are actually optional to wear. And I think Mercurial has done a better job at explaining Arab culture in previous posts.

 

[Kei]

Not wearing a veil is a sin but it's not a GREAT sin, it's something you can atone for by praying so it's optional to wear. However, the veil falling off her head isn't her fault. Why should be punished?. Now, women get beat up for the veil falling off? Don't you think that's because of the lack of education for people of that country, to be quite honest ALL the examples I've got so far of women gets beat up and stoned if raped, it's all have been in Afghanistan and a few other countries around it, who does NOT speak Arabic as the main language nor has been educated well.

Arabs are the one who fully understand the Islam and not even ONE of these acts you mentioned happens here.

And have you ever heard of the teenaged girl who was stoned to death for being raped? Its not like she died from one stone being thrown at her.

Stoning to death, in medieval times was a punishment not for raped women, (A proof you guys have no idea what you're talking about) It was a punishment for a man and a woman who cheats on his wife/her husband WHILE he/she is married. That punishment was used to atone for his sin, so he can go to heaven afterward.

While in modern times, Muslims (Educated ones) know that these kinds of punishments can't be done, so they gave it up, except Saudi Arabia, with the stealing punishment.

Raped women, are considered a victim in Islam and I already explained it in a previous post.



LMAO at the video you posted, that was at the time of war with Iraq, also apparently they missed to translate the parts where he says "Victory to us, the Iraqis", he has the right to rage and say all he want when his country is being invaded, or you think he should just be like a good puppy and submit to the invaders?

Okay not that I am jumping on the Muslims, cause everyone is innocent until proven guilty, or every one is guilty until proven innocent -- But if what you claim is so, why do women get beaten if their veil falls? Why are American soldiers dying every day in Iraq because of roadside bombings if Muslims are so peacful?

Your answer is in your next paragraph. You have a funny definition of aren't in battle, they are still their, means they are still invading Iraq, so battles between Iraqis and Americans are very much expected. You don't think a war between countries will simply stop just because the other part stopped, also . While the soldiers are still in Iraq they are in battle.

Yes, I know America 'shouldn't' be over there, but they are, and now they are being killed even when they aren't in battle. We have to go with statistics here okay? Yes, not all Muslims are violent, but a majority want to fucking kill anyone who doesn't bow before their god, or did the South Park Creators get imaginary threats

umm lol, where did you get these statistics? Your mind? a minority wants to kill everyone (Because there's no awareness and easily brainwashed by terrorists groups).

Now, I will say this once and only once, I am not saying ALL muslims are Violent, for there are those that say "I want to follow my religion but I won't go to extreme measures", but a majority will do this. /facepalm, facepalm, facepalm

Again, with your made up statistics.

Also, you still provide me with videos of someone else talking. When you're going to understand that those won't give you a better understanding of a religion? if you want to understand a religion, go and research it yourself from it's original books, read Qur'an commentaries, Hadith, and the historical events.

You guys really could use a lesson in Arabs history.

EDIT -

Say not to kill for the sake of you religion, it certainly does NOT combat with the violent ones that have been posted. It definitely doesn't say "Don't kill in the name of Allah or Muhammed." and if so why the FUCK did 9/11 happen? And what the fuck are the muslims doing hiding Osama Bin Laden? He definitely isn't hiding from the American Government (or who ever the hells looking for him) by his fuckin self.

And the translations that have been posted missed the (In fight) part. even at the video YOU, yourself posted, it said (In fight). oh and there's a continuation for that verse, which is in English "It's either Generosity or ransom"

Generosity means set him free, ransom well you know what does it mean. Again, that was applied and happened A LOT in medieval times, if you can't put it in your head that Islam was in medieval times and it fits perfectly during that time, then arguing with you won't get anywhere.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Just wanted to respond to this

Those are muslims in the middle east, which is only about 20% of the world's muslim population. 60% of muslims live in Asia with Indonesia being the country with the highest muslim population in the world. And it's more of the taliban using the religion as a method of control. I bet if those terrorist organizations were christian, the attacks would still happen and those religions would be used as a method of control.

From what I learn in college, the veils, or hijab are actually optional to wear. And I think Mercurial has done a better job at explaining Arab culture in previous posts.

Why are you bringing up Christianity again? I could give two shits less about Christianity, we're talking about the violence that is the muslim religion.

So now most muslims live in Asia and not Afganastan, Iraq, Egypt etc. etc. etc.?

{Some of these videos may contain Violent or Unsuitable themes}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFr0JtsA_c8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hcQTmcgkKA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54liHE5oFhM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzNFWaTjGws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM9Tw4z0N98&feature=related

But since we are on the subject of "Christianity", why haven't Christians drawn a plane into a building FILLED with thousands -- Babies, Adults and so on? Why don't we hear about how right it is to beat someone for being a certain gender, from Christians?

Your going off tangent I don't care what its called.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgd45hyFsh8

If by optional, you mean you choose either beatings or wearing the Hijab, then yes it is optional. We call it a Hobsons Choice.

 

[Kei]

Arguing with you won't get anywhere.

First of all, your point of attack that Muslims wanted to kill everyone now you switched to women.

Second of all, Yes, Muslims are allowed to hit (aka "slap only" in commentaries) their wives and it's written in the Qur'an. However, he's not allowed to slap her all he likes He's only allowed to slap her when repetitive disrespects occur from the wife part.

Also, again video provided of Iran again "Iran" who doesn't really believe in Muhammed they believe in Muhammad's cousin "Ali".

EDIT:

What Rydia meant, that those terrorists groups would have still done the same even if they were using Christianity or Jewish as a cover and they will find a way to dig something up to support their actions by it.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Arguing with you won't get anywhere.

First of all, your point of attack that Muslims wanted to kill everyone now you switched to women.

Second of all, Yes, Muslims are allowed to hit (aka "slap only" in commentaries) their wives and it's written in the Qur'an. However, he's not allowed to slap her all he likes He's only allowed to slap her when repetitive disrespects occur from the wife part.

Also, again video provided of Iran again "Iran" who doesn't really believe in Muhammed they believe in Muhammad's cousin "Ali".

Jesus Christ...Really? So YOUR saying IT IS okay to beat a woman? for what? for what a man thinks is her disrespecting HIM? So peacful is this religion

Your very selective. I want to know why MUSLIMS drove a plane into buildings of the innocent and killed thousands? And why if they are so peaceful do they continue to do this?

Don't insult me you sexist, I haven't said barely anything for you to say will get this "discussion" --Or lack there of-- no where.

Which video would that be? All muslims not matter who they follow think this way, or haven't you heard of women commiting self-immolation? I'll have you know my mother and grandparents lived in Isfahan during the revolution, and were shot at, and witnessed things you can's even imagine.

Arguing this with you is getting me no where, its worse than talking to a wall. Case closed, I proved my points to have them incessantly ignored.

By the by, the Qu'ran clearly states for Muslims to: Kill and Terrorize, lie and decieve non-belivers.

EDIT:

What Rydia meant, that those terrorists groups would have still done the same even if they were using Christianity or Jewish as a cover and they will find a way to dig something up to support their actions by it.

Don't compare these religions the Muslim religion, the Jewish are a people whom have been terrorized for their belifs while Muslims do the terrorizing. Christians are against Murder and Violence check out the Seven Deadly Sins dude. the least you could do is educate youselves before stepping into this debate.

Heres some more information for you dude read up on the Bombay Riots, that should give you some prospective on how PEACEFUL muslims art.

 

[Kei]

First of all, Don't EVER call me a sexist because I'm not, and I haven't insulted you in ANYWHERE of my posts. =/ Apparently, you're the one who's going off insulting.

Jesus Christ...Really? So YOUR saying IT IS okay to beat a woman? for what? for what a man thinks is her disrespecting HIM? So peacful is this religion

Second of all, -sighs- "Disrespect" google what it means, also please google what "beat up" means too, I don't promote the idea of someone to slap his wife or even harm her, if she's disrespecting him and it went to the point where he can't stand it then to be quite honest, just divorce there's no need for harm. Qur'an says slap her if she disrespects him much if he didn't want divorce, if she continues after that then divorce is his only solution.

Don't put words into my mouth, I'll quote myself. ^^

Second of all, Yes, Muslims are allowed to hit (aka "slap only" in commentaries) their wives and it's written in the Qur'an. However, he's not allowed to slap her all he likes He's only allowed to slap her when repetitive disrespects occur from the wife part.

I never said, I was okay with it. Clearly, you haven't read any of the previous posts. Then you'd know I'm an agnostic who lives among Muslims. oh and 1 more thing, if Muslims are ordered to "kill all disbelievers" why there are Christians, Jews, Atheists living in this country when it's a Muslim country? I wonder.

Your very selective. I want to know why MUSLIMS drove a plane into buildings of the innocent and killed thousands? And why if they are so peaceful do they continue to do this?

I will tell you that this won't get anywhere due to this quote, not only me have answered this in previous posts but like MANY answered it, see Tyler's (Shu) post or Vikki's (.Mangiu or something) post.

Which video would that be? All muslims not matter who they follow think this way, or haven't you heard of women commiting self-immolation? I'll have you know my mother and grandparents lived in Isfahan during the revolution, and were shot at, and witnessed things you can's even imagine.

I will have you know my grandparents and father lived in Palestine during Israel take over, oh and your probably don't know but I'll tell you, see this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

My grandpa was the chief of this village before they were massacred, you're the one who can't even imagine, my grandma and her children barely escaped their killing, I have an uncle and many relatives that has been massacred there. Yet, I don't hold a grudge against anyone, because it's just pointless.

I'm a more of a peaceful man, I don't believe in wars, I think they are just a lame excuse to take over something, like America taking over Iraq just for "Oil" enough said, war against terrorism was an excuse.

Don't compare these religions the Muslim religion, the Jewish are a people whom have been terrorized for their belifs while Muslims do the terrorizing. Christians are against Murder and Violence check out the Seven Deadly Sins dude. the least you could do is educate youselves before stepping into this debate.

Heres some more information for you dude read up on the Bombay Riots, that should give you some prospective on how PEACEFUL muslims art.

ROFL I almost fell on floor laughing, again educates yourself more about Islam, you still choose to ignore what I said, when you want to talk about Islam please provide wrong doings of Educated people, not an ignorant person who probably don't know how to read.

I know the Seven Deadly Sins but I haven't seen a single christian care about it, it's the same as the Islamic religion sins again educated yourself, you look at the Qur'an yet you have absolutely no idea of anything other than it.

Killing an innocent life on purpose = Great sin in which you should be executed.

Of course taking that into account, 9/11 attack was on purpose and it didn't target any military force, it targeted the innocents.

---
By the way, I had enough of this thread, so peace.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Mercurial, Mercurial...

You said "Arguing with you won't get anywhere." and I quote, henceforth insulting my inteligence.

But you say muslims are peaceful? When they promote beating their wives. When you promote those whom promote this you are therefore promoting it, no? We hear of them cutting there wives, beating and burning their wives etc. etc. etc.

So because they are allowed to live in muslim country's they aren't being killed? or threatened? Mercurial are you denying that the book MUSLIM follow -- THE QU'RAN -- does NOT say to Kill disbelivers? Christians lived in America, the country founded on Christianity and were killed there by Muslims that makes it worse!

Then explain again for my sake.

Don't bring me wikipidia "evidence" Did I read that this Dei Yessin massacre was during a war? Explain this shit.

Terrorism still happened bub. Be it an excuse for war or not, I could care less.

Tell me how a massacre during a civil war, equals stepping into anothers country and driving planes into buildings? Or again I repeat the Bombay Riot.

Your going off tangant, you keep going off subject, bringing matters that don't matter, I am leaving this petty little argument, Nuff Said

 

[Daenerys]

After discussion with two other moderators, Stilztkin and Astronema, we have decided it is best that this thread be closed. It is becoming far too offensive and heated. If you wish to discuss or dispute this, do not hesitate to PM one of us.

-Thread Closed-