Plot Holes *SPOILERS*

[HighwindPilot]

*The spoiler note was made because they're bound to arise in a plot-oriented thread*

So I saw this subject come up in another (recent) thread and it surprised me a bit, as it seemed to have been implied that there were a number plot holes.

I think that kind of thing comes up a lot because FF7 leaves a few things to be figured out or inferred by the players. Essentially, what we know is what the characters generally know. This means we're naturally taken through some confusion or inaccuracies before ultimately discovering the truth or fact later in the game. And when certain revelations do come about, they're not exactly spelled out to you like an Aesop kid's book. You're left to determine particular things with what's been given to you.

For example... On another forum, some time way back, I recall someone saying that, "The English version of the game caused people to believe that Jenova was a Cetra and that they were all some kind of aliens", but this was a mistake on the individual's part. I don't know if the Japanese version did it differently, but I think it became pretty clear in the English version that Shinra's data on Jenova and the Cetra was inaccurate. And you gradually begin to learn later (Temple of the Ancients and after) who the Cetra actually were and Jenova's role in it all. But when people don't understand, there's a tendency to either chalk it up to "mistranslations" or general flubs on the game's part. I'm not saying this is always the case, but as you saw there, it happens.

So I can't necessarily say that I've encountered any real disruption or contradiction of logic in the game.

One thing I know that it never really explained was why Jenova came to the planet, but that wasn't something that needed to be known. Another thing I thought of was about Sephiroth and where he was for those 5 years between the incident and the crater. But IIRC, he might have actually explained this at the temple his self, and we last saw him drifting in the lifestream after Cloud "finished" him, so it's at least obvious how he got there.

Everything else is made pretty clear game-wise. But I do know that there are some things you're left to infer, although even that isn't made difficult by the game's detail. And I think the primary confusion for some about certain aspects is derived from the fact that you're gonna have to separate some of the early "beliefs" vs the actual facts revealed later.

I don't really see them myself. So I'm just curious as to what plot holes were in the game? I'm not necessarily attempting to refute the idea of their existence in the game altogether, but moreso see if I'm missing or forgetting anything?

 

[Dionysos]

I too have heard a lot of people talk about plot holes. Personally I felt the story was mostly explained in the game. There was some digging that needed to be done, like talking to everyone, and reading what people had to say during key scenes. Sometimes if a single line is misread then the desired fact is confused. But it was mostly all in the original game.

One thing I know that it never really explained was why Jenova came to the planet, but that wasn't something that needed to be known.

They didn't really need to explain what she was doing there. She was an alien. Why not? Aliens land on earth in movies and not everybody questions their reasoning, and when they do they get vapourised.

I'm not sure if it was stated in the original game, but in Advent Children it was anounced that she had intended to use the planet as a sort of vessel to travel the cosmos.

She probably just wanted to cause havoc, live there for a bit and either take over the planet or move on. She was a destructive force.

Another thing I thought of was about Sephiroth and where he was for those 5 years between the incident and the crater. But IIRC, he might have actually explained this at the temple his self, and we last saw him drifting in the lifestream after Cloud "finished" him, so it's at least obvious how he got there.

I think following the Nibelheim incident he pretty much stayed put. The lifestream pulled him along to the Northern Crater region and he became crystalised. From here (half dead) he pretty much gathered his energy which he would eventually use to conrol the body of Jenova to aquire the Black Materia and set the events of FF7 in motion.


I agree, most of the plot is revealed in the original game. There are some points which you have to infer yourself, through guessing or through interpreting text which people in the game say.



I can't think of any plot holes myself. If someone else brings any up here I'll be keen to hear them. I think there were parts of the story that weren't fully explained, but it is hard to fully explain everything really. Character histories etc were not fully fleshed out, but they made sense and didn't contradict themselves.

I seem to be one of a minority of people who believe that the Zack-Nibelheim incident, explained when Cloud plunged into the lifestream, was actually explained really well. Some people mention how Crisis Core needed to be made in order to understand that bit fully, but I don't think that is the case at all. It was all there, I thought.


I think it's possibly because the scope was pretty massive and there were lots of different events. Among all that it might have been overwhelming to some people and also because with some facts you might have needed to speak to town's residents and interact with events to get the whole picture. For example, I think the whole Gast-Ifalna-Aerith incident in Icicle Inn is only explained in detail when you watch the recordings Gast made in one of the buildings. Other things like this, which are optional, exist in the game. Perhaps not everyone did them.

If there are serious or minor plot holes, I'm not aware of them.

 

[WanderingAesthetic]

VII's plot is really complex, and I understand why someone might think there are some plot holes. You've got Cloud acting as an unreliable narrator through half or more of the game, and a couple of plot elements are only ever explained in optional scenes, like the flashback in the Nibelheim basement regarding Zack and Cloud's escape and Vincent's flashback in the cave.

I thought there were a couple of holes the first time I played it, but I can't think of anything now.

 

[HighwindPilot]

There was some digging that needed to be done, like talking to everyone, and reading what people had to say during key scenes. Sometimes if a single line is misread then the desired fact is confused. But it was mostly all in the original game.

I think the only digs in the game include:

- The Ifalna/Jenova/Ghast information you mentioned. The people in Icicle Inn, and that video first and foremost, are what cleared up that Jenova/Cetra thing more than anything else in the game I can think of. I think it's essential that you do that for a full understanding of this.

- Extended information about the two optional characters' backgrounds (Yuffie and Vincent) were both done in optional quests, which makes perfect sense.

- And if you wanted elaboration of the Nibelheim Cloud/Zack thing (which was still explained in the main plot line), you could find more on it.

Those are the only "digs" I can think of.

Everything else is in the main plot itself. It was just a matter of paying attention to dialogue and interactions. The plot is complex in that it has a lot of layers to it, so you do have to pay attention in key scenes throughout the game. That's something that I feel people don't always do, thus leading to the confusion.

As far as the mistranslations go, the only big screw up I can think of was regarding Tseng's well being. Everyhing else shouldn't have actually disurpted anything.

There are some points which you have to infer yourself, through guessing or through interpreting text which people in the game say.

I agree, although I think it was more about what's inferred or interpretation. I can't think of anything you had to guess on. I think so long as you pay attention, you could derive the facts. I appreciate that they didn't just kind of spell everything out for us, but I don't think the dialogue was shrouded or confusing either.

Character histories etc were not fully fleshed out, but they made sense and didn't contradict themselves.

I agree on the last two accounts, but I think their histories were actually fleshed out quite well.

Most of the characters got really fleshed out backgrounds via the plot. The only "initial" character that didn't was Reed, and as a double agent, that makes sense. While Yuffie's and Vincent's were done in optional sidequests, which makes perfect sense as optional characters.

I seem to be one of a minority of people who believe that the Zack-Nibelheim incident, explained when Cloud plunged into the lifestream, was actually explained really well. Some people mention how Crisis Core needed to be made in order to understand that bit fully, but I don't think that is the case at all. It was all there, I thought.

I'm with you here. Hojo explains his experimentation on Cloud in the crater. So when you connect it with Cloud and Tifa's scene in the Lifestream, it adds up. And then if you wanted elaboration, the cutscene and info in the Nibelheim mansion later, as well as the letter from Zangat to Tifa (this one's extremely optional) both provide. CC really isn't needed for this to be explained well. They explain enough in the main plot, and even more could be dug up. Though I understand not everyone did so.

All in all, I agree with you throughout. Great points made.

And you know, we use the terms "infer" and "interpret", but it should also be kept in mind that none of it's really hard to figure out. You can derive the proper interpretation because the game's text intends these interpretations.

 

[Wras]

- Extended information about the two optional characters' backgrounds (Yuffie and Vincent) were both done in optional quests, which makes perfect sense.

While I don't think there are any gaping plot holes (if you have to look that hard to find them, chances are they aren't that big), one thing I disagree with when you're telling a story is making it so the optional parts are 'required'.

Now, I don't mean that there shouldn't have been the optional characters. For someone like me who didn't come across Vincent or even know about him in my first run, finding him the second time was so amazing.

But once the Compilation starts to form and more threads of the story are woven, it feels like either a) the creators are forcing the audience to experience all of the expanded universe portions to completely comprehend the story, or b) you are left with an 'incomplete' understanding which then becomes a story of plot holes. So rather, in FFVII the plot holes are few and far between, but in the Compilation of FFVII, since so many new things are introduced, it makes the series vulnerable to more contradictions.

I know it's not really right for me to bring the Compilation into my point. I believe that if you read all the dialogue, experience FFVII as much as you want, and take an active interest in the story, you'll come out with a more than coherent grasp of the events and plot.

 

[Wras]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that the optional parts of the game were made requirements by compilations? Or do you mean that they shouldn't make the optional parts "required"? Because I don't feel that either are the case.

Ah that statement was just an aside, a general for story telling. Better said: the audience (reader, viewer, gamer in this case) should not have to resort to expanded media to comprehend a single work. I'm agreeing with you and I don't think VII does this.

In fact for most of my post (and yours) I was agreeing. I have noticed no plot holes, none that are major enough to come clear to me over 8+ times playing through the game. I'm not denying there may be, but I think any that would be discovered at this point would take so much nitpicking and analysis they would either not be plot holes or they could be easily explained.

As for the expanded universe, I don't have any examples, no. I don't think Crisis Core creates anything that contradicts too much with VII's story if at all. As you said, with the Cloud/Zack bits optional, all it does is add another layer of coherency (and kudos to the writers for keeping things consistent). I was just noting how one could find plot holes, not arguing that there are any.

 

[HighwindPilot]

Ah that statement was just an aside, a general for story telling. Better said: the audience (reader, viewer, gamer in this case) should not have to resort to expanded media to comprehend a single work. I'm agreeing with you and I don't think VII does this.

In fact for most of my post (and yours) I was agreeing. I have noticed no plot holes, none that are major enough to come clear to me over 8+ times playing through the game. I'm not denying there may be, but I think any that would be discovered at this point would take so much nitpicking and analysis they would either not be plot holes or they could be easily explained.

As for the expanded universe, I don't have any examples, no. I don't think Crisis Core creates anything that contradicts too much with VII's story if at all. As you said, with the Cloud/Zack bits optional, all it does is add another layer of coherency (and kudos to the writers for keeping things consistent). I was just noting how one could find plot holes, not arguing that there are any.

Ohhh, okay. I apologize. I didn't realize that you were speaking generally about these things, and I thought, given what you quoted of mine, that you were saying that VII did force the optional to requirements or that you need the expanded media, etc... Which is the only reason why I rebutled these ideas. I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding.

Good post though, and you're right. I'm sure if you nitpick at the tiniest thing, there's the possibility that you can "find" a nitch in the story. But as both you and Argor have said (each in your own way), if you have to search so extensively for something so small, it's a non-issue.

 

[Wras]

No worries, I was worried that I should have clarified that I was grasping at straws a bit and being vague in my point.

There was a list of plot holes I saw on some other boards a while back (I believe it might have been GameFAQs) but a thorough knowledge of the game and a quick reminder that VII is a separate story and entity from its sequels was enough to counteract most arguments.

Another point I see a lot of people bring up is "why couldn't X character just do this instead?" which kind of bothers me as they're using opinion and possibility to back up their points. Obviously a character could have done something to prevent X event, but the fact that they didn't doesn't make X event a plothole. All this to say, I think the definition for the term is expanded too much to fit an argument against VII's storytelling.

 

[.Tifa]

Feel like everybody wants/ wanted to know more about the Nibelheim tragedy and the whole Zack/ Cloud disorder but really wanted to know how Reno survived the fall from the Sector 5 pillar..

Reno jumped about maybe 10 stories..

Maybe the whole Advent Children flying in the air while fighting was meant to clear that one up...? xD

 

[2of9]

I had to play the game like 3 times to understand what was REALLY going on. Before AC, CC, DoC, FF7 the game did have plenty of plot holes but was later showed quite in depth in the FF7 franchise. I would love to play the FF7 cell phone game because I still have no clue what's going on, all i know is that it's about The Turks. Can someone guide me to what's going on in that cell phone game?

 

[HighwindPilot]

Before AC, CC, DoC, FF7 the game did have plenty of plot holes but was later showed quite in depth in the FF7 franchise.

Okay then. Like what? If it had "plenty", name them.

Feel like everybody wants/ wanted to know more about the Nibelheim tragedy and the whole Zack/ Cloud disorder

Here's the funny thing about that... I'll do my best to make sense with this...

While something like Crisis Core, we gained more on the Nibelheim incident, but at the same time, we didn't. What I mean is, Crisis Core didn't exactly expand any more on the continuity established in VII. It didn't fill in any "gap" that VII had and it didn't go into any excessive detail of what we were told about the incident or disorder in VII. Instead, it just kind of added more elements and background to it. So I guess, a way of looking at it is that we were given more detail on what "surrounded" those aspects rather than more on the actual aspects themselves.

VII offered us explanation on both of the things you mentioned, and in the main plot at that. So CC still wasn't needed for that. There was almost nothing else to be added, so instead they just kind of added "surrounding elements". Like having Zack fight 100 soldiers before death, or having Genesis show up at Nibelheim, etc...