I'm confused about the timeline...

[Marazmatique]

I'm replaying the game right now, and I just noticed something for the first time... Or, well, realized that I can't connect some things, at any case.

When and how did Ellone get to the orphanage..?

As far as I can understand, it went like this:

Ellone is kidnapped by Esthar soldiers -> Laguna goes off to search for her [meanwhile, Raine gives birth to Squall and he ends up at the orphanage as a baby] -> Laguna finds Ellone in Esthar -> ??? -> Ellone turns up at the orphanage -> ??? -> Ellone is taken from the orphanage (By whom? Where?)

Um, so what the heck happened there? Or did I forget something obvious?

I just made a post in another thread, saying that Squall and Ellone probably got to the orphanage at the same time, then realized that I can't back that up. In fact the game seems to contradict it. Anyone have an idea?

 

[Ness]

I reckon this would probably qualify as some sort of plot hole. At any rate, I can't remember exactly what happened, so we're probably left to draw our own conclusions. I never really thought about it, actually, the Orphanage bit always seemed like a shallow way to tie in all the main characters together. It was a nifty idea, but it all seemed a bit pointless to me.

Anyway, I guess you could argue that

Spoiler

Laguna sent her away after he became President of Esthar, or perhaps Ellone just visited of her own accord to see Squall

...or something. I'm not really sure. D:

 

[Marazmatique]

That doesn't make much sense. =\ He went all over the world to find her, just to send her away? Hell, being president, he should've been able to turn her childhood into a dream, stuffed with ponies and happiness and the like. I don't understand how he completely missed out on Squall being his son either. I mean, surely he'd visited Winhill after finding Ellone, found out that Raine was dead and that she had a baby that was obviously his. He should have sped to the orphanage to find and get his son! Surely he found out eventually, I don't remember the exact words Laguna says to Squall over the course of the game, but even Kiros knew who Squall's parents are! (how did he know, anyway?)

Stupid plotholes... So many unanswered questions. I swear, this game was released before it was fully thought out and complete. Some things just make no sense.

 

[charliepanayi]

Let's summarise:

Ellone kidnapped
Laguna leaves Winhill to look for her
Laguna rescues Ellone in Esthar, but Laguna is forced to stay and Ellone returns to Winhill alone, just in time to see Raine give birth
Raine gives birth to Squall and dies
Squall and Ellone sent to orphanage
Edea receives the Sorceress Power from Ultimecia,and Squall (from the future) tells Edea that in the future Ultimecia will use her to try to use Ellone's power
Edea forms the White SeeDs and they take Ellone away from the orphanage

It's not until during the events of the game that Ellone is reunited with Laguna, where presumably she tells him about his son (and presumably as his closest friends, Kiros and Ward would hear about it too). Laguna never returned to Winhill after leaving so he wouldn't have found out about Raine having a child.

 

[Che]

Roughly, her parents get killed and then she's taken in by Raine, her next door neighbor. Laguna shows up injured and decides to stay after he's back to good health to become a pseudo bodyguard of the town.

Esthar pricks come back and jack Ellone. Laguna and company head off to get her back. Meanwhile a certain someone felt it wasn't very important to tell him she was pregnant.

Eventually Adel gets the Han Solo treatment and gets dumped in space. Laguna and Ellone are reunited. Now here's the fucked up part. Laguna stays behind to help rebuild Esthar and sends Ellone ALONE ahead of him to Winhill. Obviously not knowing of Raines condition.

Thankfully she makes it back, only to witness the birth of Squall and birth complications killing Raine. Because of her death the people of the village make the decision to send them to Edeas orphanage. This is actually when part of the ending kicks in.

Edia, with knowledge that she got from the Squall lost in the flow of time, she enlist older kids of the orphanage, which we know as White Seed. They were given a ship and were formed to keep Ellone from Edea when her powers are given to her from a dying Ultimecia. (Yes, the dying Ultimecia in the end)

 

[Marazmatique]

Ah, guess that makes sense then... And they WERE sent to the orphanage at the same time after all. But it's still strange to me that Laguna could go so long without checking back at the situation in Winhill. Seems unlikely that he never learned that he had a son, apart from Ellone. I wonder when she was finally able to use her powers to communicate with people from her past, although given the game, the answer is probably "when she began showing Squall the past"...

 

[charliepanayi]

Remember that Laguna had become President of Esthar during all that time so not only was fully occupied, Esthar also shut itself off from the rest of the world during that period. If he had been aware of Raine expecting a child, maybe he would have found some way to find out what was happening.

 

[Ramiel]

IIRC Laguna leaves Ellone and Squall at Raine's house in... Winhill was it? and Raine dies and the two get sent at the orphanage.
If I recall correctly that is.

 

[StarGirl87]

This is a big part of the story that should have really had more exposure in the game. We are only left to draw our own conclusions and pretty much guess what happened from the segments given out. I think it would have been great if they had a few - well not just a few, but at least ONE scene where Laguna acknowledges Squall as his son and they talk about what happened. For them to at least have somewhat of a father-son moment anyway, not for it to just be implied. There could have at least been a side quest or something where you can find out more about what happened. I think that would have been really good to see. In FF7 you could find out past events that weren't part of the main storyline by exploring the world more. Even Ellone sending Squall to the past to see his mother/himself as a baby, or being sent to the Orphanage, something.. anything anyway! He surely should have wanted to know more about his family and why he ended up in an orphanage, why his father wasn't there, why he turned out the way that he did...

It just doesn't seem believable to me that Laguna would send Ellone by herself back to Winhill after he left Raine and went all that way just to find her in the first place! I guess she would have had Esthar escorts take her back, he was the President by that time. Still.. for Laguna to just leave and ignore them both was disgraceful.. Although he probably wasn't planning on staying in Esthar for that long of a time, he just became President and wanted to help the city so he had obligations and would have been very busy. Still seems crazy Laguna never once found out about his son. Do they not have phones in this technological advanced world??

Does it even explain when Laguna came back to Winhill? How long he was in Esthar for? Because it doesn't make sense if he left and never came back for years. Didn't he miss Raine and Ellone and wanted to know how they were? Raine was his wife and Ellone was like a daughter to them both, so they were his family. Did the thought never cross his mind Raine might be pregnant? If he came back shortly after she died, wouldn't the people who sent Squall and Ellone to the orphanage tell him about his newborn son? Or tell him they were sent there even?? Seeing as Laguna took such a long journey to find Ellone in the first place, wouldn't he want to find her again? If he knew he had a son that he never got to see, wouldn't he want to find him too? Laguna already knew where the orphanage was, he visited Matron/Edea before when looking for Ellone I believe. So why didn't he go back?

There are a lot of unanswered questions really. I don't like only having to speculate...

It's these stories/back stories I like and like to find out more about. Seeing as they tied nearly all the main characters together by having them brought up in the same place, maybe learning more about how/why they ended up there in the first place would have made them more interesting, to see some cut scenes. Especially Squall, seeing as he's the main character.

 

[Marazmatique]

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking exactly... Just so many questions that are basically "why on earth did he do this, and not that" or "how could he not..." Makes no sense. =\ Laguna loved both Raine and Ellone. Sure, after Ellone was sent away he was suddenly responsible for a whole nation, but that didn't mean he could simply forget about his own family. He's too sentimental and emotional for that. Plus they already ahd spaceships in Esthar by that time around, how hard could it be for him to visit Winhill?! Even a year or two or three later, so he could find out that Raine had a child that was sent to an orphanage, from one of the locals. Even 17 years after, you find people in Winhill who remember Raine...

Bah... Squaresoft's fault for making this portion of the story ridiculous.

 

[charliepanayi]

People are missing the point - Laguna would have wanted to return, but he felt tied down to his new duties to Esthar. And Esthar completely sealed itself off from the rest of the world for the subsequent 17 years to boot, so he couldn't just 'get in touch' or even leave. Laguna probably regretted not going back to see Raine for the rest of his life (especially once he learnt about what happened to her and Squall), but its that whole what a person wants vs what they feel their duty is. He didn't forget about them, and the game never suggests that he does. But he made a hard decision (maybe the wrong decision), and had to live with it.

And I disagree that the game needed a scene where Laguna talks to Squall and admits that he is his father. That's spoon-feeding the plot to the player. The clues are there, it's heavily implied and the player can figure it out. And it doesn't need a scene between the two of them, not least because it would be hard to do without coming across as absurdly cheesy.

 

[phantasmor]

well.... given that Elone can communicate psychically to people i would assume she would have told Lagunna a lot of stuff but most importantly she could have told him that in the future he needs to be there waiting there and that it was important that he be there but.... i may be wrong

 

[Marazmatique]

People are missing the point - Laguna would have wanted to return, but he felt tied down to his new duties to Esthar. And Esthar completely sealed itself off from the rest of the world for the subsequent 17 years to boot, so he couldn't just 'get in touch' or even leave. Laguna probably regretted not going back to see Raine for the rest of his life (especially once he learnt about what happened to her and Squall), but its that whole what a person wants vs what they feel their duty is. He didn't forget about them, and the game never suggests that he does. But he made a hard decision (maybe the wrong decision), and had to live with it.

That brings me to this question: why did Esthar seal itself off, and whose decision was it..?

I understand what you're saying, but honestly, a few days (seeing how it's apparently possible to walk across an ocean on a bridge [with a girl's body dangling off your back] ) could've been managed. President Laguna would be going incognito anyway, no one outside of Esthar knew who he had become and what he had done. Even if the whole nation was basically in a state of recuperation and revival. A few days...

Bleh...

I agree that there was no need for cheezy scenes between Laguna and Squall though. I think that Squall would wind up asking the questions I'm asking now, and honestly, there's hardly a good enough excuse or answer for all that...

 

[charliepanayi]

I think that Esthar sealing itself off from the rest of the world was a collective decision, and Laguna would have been involved in making that decision. Why it was done was supposedly to help stop any more Sorceress Wars from occurring (as the one that had just happened involving Adel had been so destructive), though the exact reasoning I admit I don't know and is one thing which might have been better explained. Perhaps they felt that future Sorceresses might try and use Esthar's technology for sinister ends as Adel had done.

 

[StarGirl87]

People are missing the point - Laguna would have wanted to return, but he felt tied down to his new duties to Esthar. And Esthar completely sealed itself off from the rest of the world for the subsequent 17 years to boot, so he couldn't just 'get in touch' or even leave. Laguna probably regretted not going back to see Raine for the rest of his life (especially once he learnt about what happened to her and Squall), but its that whole what a person wants vs what they feel their duty is. He didn't forget about them, and the game never suggests that he does. But he made a hard decision (maybe the wrong decision), and had to live with it.

I believe if he had wanted to return, he would have. Sure it may have been sealed off but Laguna was the president, if he had wanted to leave he would have made it happen. The president should be able to do anything! Seemed easy enough for Squall and the group to get in.. It just doesn't seem believable that he would not once go back to Winhill after 17 whole years later.

Sound's more like they were trying to think of a reason Laguna couldn't return for the convenience of the storyline, it doesn't really work though.

That's the thing 'he probably regretted', 'the game never suggests he forgets about them', the game doesn't suggest hardly anything really.

I think that Esthar sealing itself off from the rest of the world was a collective decision, and Laguna would have been involved in making that decision. Why it was done was supposedly to help stop any more Sorceress Wars from occurring (as the one that had just happened involving Adel had been so destructive), though the exact reasoning I admit I don't know and is one thing which might have been better explained. Perhaps they felt that future Sorceresses might try and use Esthar's technology for sinister ends as Adel had done.

I thought something like that, however surely Laguna cared about seeing his family again? If it would have been impossible to go back?

How did Squall and the group get in so easily then? All I remember is of them climbing up an invisible wall.

And I disagree that the game needed a scene where Laguna talks to Squall and admits that he is his father. That's spoon-feeding the plot to the player. The clues are there, it's heavily implied and the player can figure it out. And it doesn't need a scene between the two of them, not least because it would be hard to do without coming across as absurdly cheesy.

'Spoon feeding' the plot? Isn't that what RPG's are supposed to do? So you understand the whole story and enjoy it more? There was hardly any interaction between them.

I loved the scene in FF7 where they showed

Spoiler

Cloud and Zack's past in the Shinra mansion. Then they're escape to Midgar.

It enlightened a lot of players and was interesting to watch. Instead of just hinting what happened they showed it, and it made the game better.

I don't think it's good to just have clues and speculation. I want to get more involved with the characters and storylines, more explanations on confusing parts. We all still don't know the exact facts, its never stated as fact Squall is Laguna's son even, we're left to draw our own conclusions.

Sure at least we can work it out, but I doubt it would have ruined the game to add at least one scene.

It may be cheesy, but so are a lot of the scenes in FF. What about the

Spoiler

reunion between Tidus and his father Jecht? Tidus and Yuna's kiss? Aeris' death?

Squall and Rinoa on the Ragnarok? Cheesy moments are part of what make the games great, we need more drama and emotional scenes in FF8! There was only one really and that was when Squall went to save Rinoa in Space, which was a great part to the game and one most people really enjoyed.

Even if there wasn't a scene between them, showing it as fact that Laguna and Squall are father and son would have been better. Like I said Ellone could have sent Squall to a time where it was shown to him what happened, before being sent to the orphanage.

I agree that there was no need for cheezy scenes between Laguna and Squall though. I think that Squall would wind up asking the questions I'm asking now, and honestly, there's hardly a good enough excuse or answer for all that...

That's probably why they didn't do it in the first place, they wouldn't be able to make it believable to the player.

well.... given that Elone can communicate psychically to people i would assume she would have told Lagunna a lot of stuff but most importantly she could have told him that in the future he needs to be there waiting there and that it was important that he be there but.... i may be wrong

That's another thing. How come Ellone didn't communicate with Laguna what was happening? About Raine and Squall?

Hmm, I don't know.. this part of the game should have been thought out more really.

 

[Donald Trump]

I believe if he had wanted to return, he would have. Sure it may have been sealed off but Laguna was the president, if he had wanted to leave he would have made it happen. The president should be able to do anything! Seemed easy enough for Squall and the group to get in.. It just doesn't seem believable that he would not once go back to Winhill after 17 whole years later.

He was running the most powerful country in the world, that had a major enemy in Galbadia. He probably wouldn't have had the time, and he probably thought that by going there he would have destroyed their lifestyle, Laguna was incredibly self-sacrificing throughout the game, I doubt he'd have gone to see Raine and Ellone if he thought he was putting them at risk.
And it wasn't very easy for Squall and co. to enter Esthar, they had to defeat the guardian monster and travel across the salt lake. In the game that doesn't take too long, but in reality (if you know what I mean) it would have.

'Spoon feeding' the plot? Isn't that what RPG's are supposed to do? So you understand the whole story and enjoy it more? There was hardly any interaction between them.

I agree with Charliepanayi, that any reunion scene would have been mawkishly sentimental, "I love you son" etc etc.
Plus, let's not forget the circumstances in which they meet, Squall is about to go off and fight the most important battle ever, Laguna wouldn't burden him with that knowledge.

Without going off topic, those other cheesy scenes were important to the plot. Tidus' story is about him fighting his dad, telling him how much he hates him etc etc.
Laguna and Squall is a subplot which is never confirmed in the game, has been in interviews.

That's another thing. How come Ellone didn't communicate with Laguna what was happening? About Raine and Squall?

Ellone can only send other people back into the past, and it's probably not possible to send someone back into their own past. Remember that although Laguna and Ward and Kiros could hear their thoughts, it never influenced their actions, only gave them strength.
And not being able to change the past is a theme of the game, with the time loop and the rest of that.

 

[StarGirl87]

He was running the most powerful country in the world, that had a major enemy in Galbadia. He probably wouldn't have had the time, and he probably thought that by going there he would have destroyed their lifestyle, Laguna was incredibly self-sacrificing throughout the game, I doubt he'd have gone to see Raine and Ellone if he thought he was putting them at risk.
And it wasn't very easy for Squall and co. to enter Esthar, they had to defeat the guardian monster and travel across the salt lake. In the game that doesn't take too long, but in reality (if you know what I mean) it would have.

Don't believe it. I'm sure people from Esthar came and go even if their city was sealed off and it was putting them at risk. Laguna managed to send Ellone back to Winhill, she would have had to be escorted back by someone from Esthar. He couldn't exactly have sent her alone. If they managed to leave and come back then he could have too, especially seeing as he was the president. He may have been self-sacrificing but to completely abandon your own family? For the chance it may put them at risk?

Yeah I guess but what I'm saying is all they had to do was go to the Salt Lake and up an invisible wall, it wasn't like they had to do some massive ordeal once they reached the spot. It was already there and easily accessible. Squall managed it holding Rinoa on his back the whole way, so can't have been that difficult.

I agree with Charliepanayi, that any reunion scene would have been mawkishly sentimental, "I love you son" etc etc.
Plus, let's not forget the circumstances in which they meet, Squall is about to go off and fight the most important battle ever, Laguna wouldn't burden him with that knowledge.

Without going off topic, those other cheesy scenes were important to the plot. Tidus' story is about him fighting his dad, telling him how much he hates him etc etc.
Laguna and Squall is a subplot which is never confirmed in the game, has been in interviews.

It's still an important part to the plot though, even if it was a subplot.

I see what your saying. I still think a scene would have been nice though. Or just something more on the parts of the storyline the player has to guess with. Even your saying "He probably did this" "Probably thought that", I prefer when games show you clearly things at the end, and maybe leave you speculating for a bit before, not for the whole game. It SHOULD have been confirmed is what I'm saying. There doesn't have to be an emotional scene, just Laguna explaining things more. Instead of being lazy with the storyline.

They probably didn't want to add much more so the game wouldn't become too long. This has been said before..

Ellone can only send other people back into the past, and it's probably not possible to send someone back into their own past. Remember that although Laguna and Ward and Kiros could hear their thoughts, it never influenced their actions, only gave them strength.
And not being able to change the past is a theme of the game, with the time loop and the rest of that.

Huh? I meant she could have sent Laguna back and showed him what happened, to the closest past/present. Not saying to send back to his own past, but to see Raine, her and Squall.

 

[Cecily]

This is a big part of the story that should have really had more exposure in the game. We are only left to draw our own conclusions and pretty much guess what happened from the segments given out.

I like the understated parts of FF8 most of all, so the issues between Squall and Laguna are where the game really shines, in my opinion. Anything that's shown instead of told always means more to me in a book/movie/game. (Like when you visit Winhill and see the bullet holes in the wall of the house... that's emotional.)

 

[StarGirl87]

I like the understated parts of FF8 most of all, so the issues between Squall and Laguna are where the game really shines, in my opinion. Anything that's shown instead of told always means more to me in a book/movie/game. (Like when you visit Winhill and see the bullet holes in the wall of the house... that's emotional.)

Laguna being Squall's father wasn't even told or shown though, just hinted. I'm saying it should have had more exposure, there doesn't have to be a scene between them if it wouldn't have worked but at least something more than just hints and speculation. Like I was saying about Ellone sending Squall back to the time they were sent to the Orphanage or something.