Historian says religion not the motive behind Crusades

Richard B Riddick

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By Prof. Thomas F. Madden

Misconceptions about the Crusades are all too common. The Crusades are generally portrayed as a series of holy wars against Islam led by power-mad popes and fought by religious fanatics. They are supposed to have been the epitome of self-righteousness and intolerance, a black stain on the history of the Catholic Church in particular and Western civilization in general. A breed of proto-imperialists, the Crusaders introduced Western aggression to the peaceful Middle East and then deformed the enlightened Muslim culture, leaving it in ruins. For variations on this theme, one need not look far. See, for example, Steven Runciman's famous three-volume epic, History of the Crusades, or the BBC/A&E documentary, The Crusades, hosted by Terry Jones. Both are terrible history yet wonderfully entertaining.


So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.




From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over. Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.
With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed's death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.


That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.


Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne'er-do-wells who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders' expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs.


At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense. During the past two decades, computer-assisted charter studies have demolished that contrivance. Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt. They were keenly aware of their sinfulness and eager to undertake the hardships of the Crusade as a penitential act of charity and love. Europe is littered with thousands of medieval charters attesting to these sentiments, charters in which these men still speak to us today if we will listen. Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.
Urban II gave the Crusaders two goals, both of which would remain central to the eastern Crusades for centuries. The first was to rescue the Christians of the East. As his successor, Pope Innocent III, later wrote:


How does a man love according to divine precept his neighbor as himself when, knowing that his Christian brothers in faith and in name are held by the perfidious Muslims in strict confinement and weighed down by the yoke of heaviest servitude, he does not devote himself to the task of freeing them? ...Is it by chance that you do not know that many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims, tortured with innumerable torments?


"Crusading," Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith has rightly argued, was understood as an "an act of love"—in this case, the love of one's neighbor. The Crusade was seen as an errand of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As Pope Innocent III wrote to the Knights Templar, "You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, 'Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends.'"


The second goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and the other places made holy by the life of Christ. The word crusade is modern. Medieval Crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims, performing acts of righteousness on their way to the Holy Sepulcher. The Crusade indulgence they received was canonically related to the pilgrimage indulgence. This goal was frequently described in feudal terms. When calling the Fifth Crusade in 1215, Innocent III wrote:


Consider most dear sons, consider carefully that if any temporal king was thrown out of his domain and perhaps captured, would he not, when he was restored to his pristine liberty and the time had come for dispensing justice look on his vassals as unfaithful and traitors...unless they had committed not only their property but also their persons to the task of freeing him? ...And similarly will not Jesus Christ, the king of kings and lord of lords, whose servant you cannot deny being, who joined your soul to your body, who redeemed you with the Precious Blood...condemn you for the vice of ingratitude and the crime of infidelity if you neglect to help Him?


The reconquest of Jerusalem, therefore, was not colonialism but an act of restoration and an open declaration of one's love of God. Medieval men knew, of course, that God had the power to restore Jerusalem Himself—indeed, He had the power to restore the whole world to His rule. Yet as St. Bernard of Clairvaux preached, His refusal to do so was a blessing to His people:


Again I say, consider the Almighty's goodness and pay heed to His plans of mercy. He puts Himself under obligation to you, or rather feigns to do so, that He can help you to satisfy your obligations toward Himself.... I call blessed the generation that can seize an opportunity of such rich indulgence as this.


It is often assumed that the central goal of the Crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the perspective of medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders' task to defeat and defend against them. That was all. Muslims who lived in Crusader-won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood, and always their religion. Indeed, throughout the history of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, Muslim inhabitants far outnumbered the Catholics. It was not until the 13th century that the Franciscans began conversion efforts among Muslims. But these were mostly unsuccessful and finally abandoned. In any case, such efforts were by peaceful persuasion, not the threat of violence.




Like all warfare, the violence was brutal (although not as brutal as modern wars). There were mishaps, blunders, and crimes. The Crusades were wars, so it would be a mistake to characterize them as nothing but piety and good intentions. Like all warfare, the violence was brutal (although not as brutal as modern wars). There were mishaps, blunders, and crimes. These are usually well-remembered today. During the early days of the First Crusade in 1095, a ragtag band of Crusaders led by Count Emicho of Leiningen made its way down the Rhine, robbing and murdering all the Jews they could find. Without success, the local bishops attempted to stop the carnage. In the eyes of these warriors, the Jews, like the Muslims, were the enemies of Christ. Plundering and killing them, then, was no vice. Indeed, they believed it was a righteous deed, since the Jews' money could be used to fund the Crusade to Jerusalem. But they were wrong, and the Church strongly condemned the anti-Jewish attacks.
Fifty years later, when the Second Crusade was gearing up, St. Bernard frequently preached that the Jews were not to be persecuted:


Ask anyone who knows the Sacred Scriptures what he finds foretold of the Jews in the Psalm. "Not for their destruction do I pray," it says. The Jews are for us the living words of Scripture, for they remind us always of what our Lord suffered.... Under Christian princes they endure a hard captivity, but "they only wait for the time of their deliverance."


Nevertheless, a fellow Cistercian monk named Radulf stirred up people against the Rhineland Jews, despite numerous letters from Bernard demanding that he stop. At last Bernard was forced to travel to Germany himself, where he caught up with Radulf, sent him back to his convent, and ended the massacres.


It is often said that the roots of the Holocaust can be seen in these medieval pogroms. That may be. But if so, those roots are far deeper and more widespread than the Crusades. Jews perished during the Crusades, but the purpose of the Crusades was not to kill Jews. Quite the contrary: Popes, bishops, and preachers made it clear that the Jews of Europe were to be left unmolested. In a modern war, we call tragic deaths like these "collateral damage." Even with smart technologies, the United States has killed far more innocents in our wars than the Crusaders ever could. But no one would seriously argue that the purpose of American wars is to kill women and children.


By any reckoning, the First Crusade was a long shot. There was no leader, no chain of command, no supply lines, no detailed strategy. It was simply thousands of warriors marching deep into enemy territory, committed to a common cause. Many of them died, either in battle or through disease or starvation. It was a rough campaign, one that seemed always on the brink of disaster. Yet it was miraculously successful. By 1098, the Crusaders had restored Nicaea and Antioch to Christian rule. In July 1099, they conquered Jerusalem and began to build a Christian state in Palestine. The joy in Europe was unbridled. It seemed that the tide of history, which had lifted the Muslims to such heights, was now turning.


***


But it was not. When we think about the Middle Ages, it is easy to view Europe in light of what it became rather than what it was. The colossus of the medieval world was Islam, not Christendom. The Crusades are interesting largely because they were an attempt to counter that trend. But in five centuries of crusading, it was only the First Crusade that significantly rolled back the military progress of Islam. It was downhill from there.


When the Crusader County of Edessa fell to the Turks and Kurds in 1144, there was an enormous groundswell of support for a new Crusade in Europe. It was led by two kings, Louis VII of France and Conrad III of Germany, and preached by St. Bernard himself. It failed miserably. Most of the Crusaders were killed along the way. Those who made it to Jerusalem only made things worse by attacking Muslim Damascus, which formerly had been a strong ally of the Christians. In the wake of such a disaster, Christians across Europe were forced to accept not only the continued growth of Muslim power but the certainty that God was punishing the West for its sins. Lay piety movements sprouted up throughout Europe, all rooted in the desire to purify Christian society so that it might be worthy of victory in the East.


Crusading in the late twelfth century, therefore, became a total war effort. Every person, no matter how weak or poor, was called to help. Warriors were asked to sacrifice their wealth and, if need be, their lives for the defense of the Christian East. On the home front, all Christians were called to support the Crusades through prayer, fasting, and alms. Yet still the Muslims grew in strength. Saladin, the great unifier, had forged the Muslim Near East into a single entity, all the while preaching jihad against the Christians. In 1187 at the Battle of Hattin, his forces wiped out the combined armies of the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem and captured the precious relic of the True Cross. Defenseless, the Christian cities began surrendering one by one, culminating in the surrender of Jerusalem on October 2. Only a tiny handful of ports held out.


The response was the Third Crusade. It was led by Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa of the German Empire, King Philip II Augustus of France, and King Richard I Lionheart of England. By any measure it was a grand affair, although not quite as grand as the Christians had hoped. The aged Frederick drowned while crossing a river on horseback, so his army returned home before reaching the Holy Land. Philip and Richard came by boat, but their incessant bickering only added to an already divisive situation on the ground in Palestine. After recapturing Acre, the king of France went home, where he busied himself carving up Richard's French holdings. The Crusade, therefore, fell into Richard's lap. A skilled warrior, gifted leader, and superb tactician, Richard led the Christian forces to victory after victory, eventually reconquering the entire coast. But Jerusalem was not on the coast, and after two abortive attempts to secure supply lines to the Holy City, Richard at last gave up. Promising to return one day, he struck a truce with Saladin that ensured peace in the region and free access to Jerusalem for unarmed pilgrims. But it was a bitter pill to swallow. The desire to restore Jerusalem to Christian rule and regain the True Cross remained intense throughout Europe.


The Crusades of the 13th century were larger, better funded, and better organized. But they too failed. The Fourth Crusade (1201-1204) ran aground when it was seduced into a web of Byzantine politics, which the Westerners never fully understood. They had made a detour to Constantinople to support an imperial claimant who promised great rewards and support for the Holy Land. Yet once he was on the throne of the Caesars, their benefactor found that he could not pay what he had promised. Thus betrayed by their Greek friends, in 1204 the Crusaders attacked, captured, and brutally sacked Constantinople, the greatest Christian city in the world. Pope Innocent III, who had previously excommunicated the entire Crusade, strongly denounced the Crusaders. But there was little else he could do. The tragic events of 1204 closed an iron door between Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox, a door that even today Pope John Paul II has been unable to reopen. It is a terrible irony that the Crusades, which were a direct result of the Catholic desire to rescue the Orthodox people, drove the two further—and perhaps irrevocably—apart.


The remainder of the 13th century's Crusades did little better. The Fifth Crusade (1217-1221) managed briefly to capture Damietta in Egypt, but the Muslims eventually defeated the army and reoccupied the city. St. Louis IX of France led two Crusades in his life. The first also captured Damietta, but Louis was quickly outwitted by the Egyptians and forced to abandon the city. Although Louis was in the Holy Land for several years, spending freely on defensive works, he never achieved his fondest wish: to free Jerusalem. He was a much older man in 1270 when he led another Crusade to Tunis, where he died of a disease that ravaged the camp. After St. Louis's death, the ruthless Muslim leaders, Baybars andKalavun, waged a brutal jihad against the Christians in Palestine. By 1291, the Muslim forces had succeeded in killing or ejecting the last of the Crusaders, thus erasing the Crusader kingdom from the map. Despite numerous attempts and many more plans, Christian forces were never again able to gain a foothold in the region until the 19th century.




Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. One might think that three centuries of Christian defeats would have soured Europeans on the idea of Crusade. Not at all. In one sense, they had little alternative. Muslim kingdoms were becoming more, not less, powerful in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. The Ottoman Turks conquered not only their fellow Muslims, thus further unifying Islam, but also continued to press westward, capturing Constantinople and plunging deep into Europe itself. By the 15th century, the Crusades were no longer errands of mercy for a distant people but desperate attempts of one of the last remnants of Christendom to survive. Europeans began to ponder the real possibility that Islam would finally achieve its aim of conquering the entire Christian world. One of the great best-sellers of the time, Sebastian Brant's The Ship of Fools, gave voice to this sentiment in a chapter titled "Of the Decline of the Faith":


Our faith was strong in th' Orient,
It ruled in all of Asia,
In Moorish lands and Africa.
But now for us these lands are gone
'Twould even grieve the hardest stone....
Four sisters of our Church you find,
They're of the patriarchic kind:
Constantinople, Alexandria,
Jerusalem, Antiochia.
But they've been forfeited and sacked
And soon the head will be attacked.


Of course, that is not what happened. But it very nearly did. In 1480, Sultan Mehmed II captured Otranto as a beachhead for his invasion of Italy. Rome was evacuated. Yet the sultan died shortly thereafter, and his plan died with him. In 1529, Suleiman the Magnificent laid siege to Vienna. If not for a run of freak rainstorms that delayed his progress and forced him to leave behind much of his artillery, it is virtually certain that the Turks would have taken the city. Germany, then, would have been at their mercy. [At that point crusades were no longer waged to rescue Jerusalem, but Europe itself.]


Yet, even while these close shaves were taking place, something else was brewing in Europe—something unprecedented in human history. The Renaissance, born from a strange mixture of Roman values, medieval piety, and a unique respect for commerce and entrepreneurialism, had led to other movements like humanism, the Scientific Revolution, and the Age of Exploration. Even while fighting for its life, Europe was preparing to expand on a global scale. The Protestant Reformation, which rejected the papacy and the doctrine of indulgence, made Crusades unthinkable for many Europeans, thus leaving the fighting to the Catholics. In 1571, a Holy League, which was itself a Crusade, defeated the Ottoman fleet at Lepanto. Yet military victories like that remained rare. The Muslim threat was neutralized economically. As Europe grew in wealth and power, the once awesome and sophisticated Turks began to seem backward and pathetic—no longer worth a Crusade. The "Sick Man of Europe" limped along until the 20th century, when he finally expired, leaving behind the present mess of the modern Middle East.


From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over. But we should be mindful that our medieval ancestors would have been equally disgusted by our infinitely more destructive wars fought in the name of political ideologies. And yet, both the medieval and the modern soldier fight ultimately for their own world and all that makes it up. Both are willing to suffer enormous sacrifice, provided that it is in the service of something they hold dear, something greater than themselves. Whether we admire the Crusaders or not, it is a fact that the world we know today would not exist without their efforts. The ancient faith of Christianity, with its respect for women and antipathy toward slavery, not only survived but flourished. Without the Crusades, it might well have followed Zoroastrianism, another of Islam's rivals, into extinction.


Thomas F. Madden is associate professor and chair of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including The New Concise History of the Crusades, and co-author, with Donald Queller, of The Fourth Crusade: The Conquest of Constantinople. This special version for the ARMA was reprinted by permission of Crisis Magazine,
www.crisismagazine.com.

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Long story short, this historian is saying the Crusades weren't motivated by religion.

They were defensive wars against middle eastern conquerors infringing upon their territory.

WOW. This could be a game changer!! :ohshit:
 
Well it still seems like he is saying that the the crusades were a response to attacks that were motivated by religious beliefs. Muslim beliefs, but religious beliefs nonetheless. Also I would like to see how well peer-reviewed his paper is, it is an extraordinary claim after all. Not to mention being hosted on a Catholic/Christian site seems indicative of some bias.
 
Well it still seems like he is saying that the the crusades were a response to attacks that were motivated by religious beliefs. Muslim beliefs, but religious beliefs nonetheless. Also I would like to see how well peer-reviewed his paper is, it is an extraordinary claim after all. Not to mention being hosted on a Catholic/Christian site seems indicative of some bias.

I think its sad how the concept of war and religion are virtually inseparable to some.

Alexander, Atilla, Hannibal, Napoleon and countless others conquered and waged war without a deity or God to influence them. Yet, it would appear somewhere along the line it has become commonplace for many to believe that not only are war and religion inseparable but religion is the only cause of war. And, this prejudiced and heavily biased point of view is considered acceptable for some strange reason.

If catholic & christian sources of information are considered biased then I wonder if people might realize there's no reason to expect Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and other assorted atheists are biased also, if not moreso.

I think suggesting religion is the only motivating factor in determining whether or not someone wages war is bias.

Religion isn't necessarily indicative of the type of manifest destiny mentality which often leads to war. Nor, is it necessarily an enabler for it. Yet, people over-simplify and over-generalize sometimes when it allows them to blame religion or traditionalism for something... :ohshit:
 
I think its sad how the concept of war and religion are virtually inseparable to some.

Alexander, Atilla, Hannibal, Napoleon and countless others conquered and waged war without a deity or God to influence them. Yet, it would appear somewhere along the line it has become commonplace for many to believe that not only are war and religion inseparable but religion is the only cause of war. And, this prejudiced and heavily biased point of view is considered acceptable for some strange reason.

If catholic & christian sources of information are considered biased then I wonder if people might realize there's no reason to expect Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and other assorted atheists are biased also, if not moreso.

I think suggesting religion is the only motivating factor in determining whether or not someone wages war is bias.

Religion isn't necessarily indicative of the type of manifest destiny mentality which often leads to war. Nor, is it necessarily an enabler for it. Yet, people over-simplify and over-generalize sometimes when it allows them to blame religion or traditionalism for something... :ohshit:

I am not saying nor do I think anyone is, that religion os the sole cause of war or that it is inseparable from war. Simply that plenty of conflicts can be traced back to religion.

As for the bolded section, that is exactly what your source is suggesting the Muslims did.

Everyone is biased to some degree. If someone wrote a book and then reviewed their own book and said how great it was, you'd imagine they were somewhat biased. In the same way it is difficult to imagine someone trying to clear the name of the the same religion that hosts their work, is somewhat biased.
 
I am not saying nor do I think anyone is, that religion os the sole cause of war or that it is inseparable from war. Simply that plenty of conflicts can be traced back to religion.

As for the bolded section, that is exactly what your source is suggesting the Muslims did.

Everyone is biased to some degree. If someone wrote a book and then reviewed their own book and said how great it was, you'd imagine they were somewhat biased. In the same way it is difficult to imagine someone trying to clear the name of the the same religion that hosts their work, is somewhat biased.

Citing religion as a cause and ignoring all other potential causes implies you believe religion to be an only cause.

What suggets you believe war and religion to be inseparable is your lack of evidence religion is responsible. In a way, all you have is a stereotype & urban myth that suggests religion is an awful influence that causes wars and mind controls people into committing violence a la Richard Dawkins.

There is generally a double standard where atheists tend to be cynical and "skeptical" of things except when it suits their own self interests. Example, a politician might receive campaign contributions from lockheed martin and exxon. War might benefit lockheed's military contracts and exxons oil interests overseas. Yet, atheists will solely blame religion for the politician favoring war if only the politician says: "god wills this war".

Thus, the zero effort atheists make to consider the issue may be indicative of prejudice and bias on it.

You try to claim that you're open minded, objective and rational but based on your actions and how you approach the issue, I don't think that's necessarily the case.
 
Citing religion as a cause and ignoring all other potential causes implies you believe religion to be an only cause.
Which is exactly what that article you posted is saying about the Muslim people. Identifying religion as the main cause for something is not calling it the sole reason. It has been the primary motivation for war in some cases, and that cannot be ignored. Like I said, your article is saying the muslim religion is solely responsible for instigating the crusades. So either you agree that religion can be the decisive factor, or you disregard the article.

What suggets you believe war and religion to be inseparable is your lack of evidence religion is responsible. In a way, all you have is a stereotype & urban myth that suggests religion is an awful influence that causes wars and mind controls people into committing violence a la Richard Dawkins.

There is generally a double standard where atheists tend to be cynical and "skeptical" of things except when it suits their own self interests. Example, a politician might receive campaign contributions from lockheed martin and exxon. War might benefit lockheed's military contracts and exxons oil interests overseas. Yet, atheists will solely blame religion for the politician favoring war if only the politician says: "god wills this war".

Thus, the zero effort atheists make to consider the issue may be indicative of prejudice and bias on it.

You try to claim that you're open minded, objective and rational but based on your actions and how you approach the issue, I don't think that's necessarily the case.

Everyone is biased, I don't want to have to tell you this again.
 
Which is exactly what that article you posted is saying about the Muslim people. Identifying religion as the main cause for something is not calling it the sole reason. It has been the primary motivation for war in some cases, and that cannot be ignored. Like I said, your article is saying the muslim religion is solely responsible for instigating the crusades. So either you agree that religion can be the decisive factor, or you disregard the article.

As far as I know, religion has never been a primary cause for war.

That's just a weak urban myth and stereotype people recite as if it were a scientific law to justify their prejudice and hate. :wacky:

Having actually read the koran, what comes to mind is believers in islam are not supposed to initiate violence nor war. This is something that is stated explicitly. Hence, suggesting that it supports pre-emptive strikes or wars may well be a pretty ridiculous and biased claim as there is no direct religious evidence to support it.

If you bothered to think about it, you might realize how difficult it is to identify religion as a main cause for something, much less prove its a cause of something at all.
 
As far as I know, religion has never been a primary cause for war.

That's just a weak urban myth and stereotype people recite as if it were a scientific law to justify their prejudice and hate. :wacky:

Having actually read the koran, what comes to mind is believers in islam are not supposed to initiate violence nor war. This is something that is stated explicitly. Hence, suggesting that it supports pre-emptive strikes or wars may well be a pretty ridiculous and biased claim as there is no direct religious evidence to support it.

If you bothered to think about it, you might realize how difficult it is to identify religion as a main cause for something, much less prove its a cause of something at all.

I do not think you read the article you posted. The author is not suggesting that religion is not to blame for the crusades, he is suggesting that Islam not Christianity is. He is still squarely blaming religion. Do you still stand by this article?
 
As far as I know, religion has never been a primary cause for war.

Wasn't Hitler's main reason to cause a war was to stamp out The jewish, making Religion a primary cause for the war? he also spit on the catholic religion.(Despiite being Catholic himself...apparently). Religion was Hitler's main motivation. It became his focus so much he tried to go after the world because he wanted to kill and persecute all the jews.

Though I may be misinterpreting this comment. Did you mean Wars started by religion it'self? or Wars where Religion was a primary Factor in starting the war, but not the cause it'self? That kinda confused me. clarifacation would be nice.

(Do feel free to correct me on my Hitler knowledge, I just saw the post and it popped into my head. So I think i may have forgot more important points. My apologies.)
 
"They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands."

Religion.

"At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense."

Religion.

"The second goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and the other places made holy by the life of Christ. "


Religion.

Etc.

Also, he never actually says religion isn't the reason for the Crusades. What he's saying is that the Crusades weren't started by bloodthirsty Christians hellbent on converting the heathen Muslims. But instead, they were in response to the aggression of the Muslims. Muslims who believed in conversion by the sword.

Side note: Madden is generally considered to be the top scholar in the U.S. when it comes to the Crusades. So he's legit.




 
I do not think you read the article you posted. The author is not suggesting that religion is not to blame for the crusades, he is suggesting that Islam not Christianity is. He is still squarely blaming religion. Do you still stand by this article?

Well, maybe if you cite exactly where you believe the author blames islam for the Crusades we might get somewhere? :elmo:

Wasn't Hitler's main reason to cause a war was to stamp out The jewish, making Religion a primary cause for the war? he also spit on the catholic religion.(Despiite being Catholic himself...apparently). Religion was Hitler's main motivation. It became his focus so much he tried to go after the world because he wanted to kill and persecute all the jews.

Though I may be misinterpreting this comment. Did you mean Wars started by religion it'self? or Wars where Religion was a primary Factor in starting the war, but not the cause it'self? That kinda confused me. clarifacation would be nice.

(Do feel free to correct me on my Hitler knowledge, I just saw the post and it popped into my head. So I think i may have forgot more important points. My apologies.)

1. Most historical accounts I've seen cite a number of reasons for anti-semitism including economic reasons, eugenics, etc. Its been documented that Hitler was on good terms with jews prior to his political career and indeed some jews were people Hitler called friends. I think there was actually a case where Hitler sheltered someone of jewish descent, but I can't remember details. Nazi Germany was on the verge of economic collapse and things like jobs were scarce. I think a good comparison are states like Arizona. When the economy is bad in the United States, that's usually when minorities are most persecuted. There's hysteria over mexicans and other minorities "taking jobs" and similar sentiment. Germany during that era was much the same. Jobs were scarce and the anti-semitism was partially due to the fact that germans thought jews were taking their jobs and depriving them of business & assorted economic opportunities. I think jews accounted for something like 10% of jobs in germany during that time & so the mentality of the era may have been that they could create 10% new jobs by getting rid of the jews. That's likely the main reason for it. Religion doesn't necessarily factor in, I think.

2. I think people confuse political rallys for religion being blameworthy. If 90% of a population is religious it naturally follows that politicians will cite "God" in an effort to influence people. If 90% of a population is atheist it naturally follows that politicians will cite "atheism" in an effort to influence people. Leaders and politicians paying lip service to religion or atheism and using peoples self interests as a lever to influence them doesn't implicate religion or anything else as a cause of something, imo.

3. I'm not quite sharp on my Hitler info, feel free to correct if I made an error somewheres. :ohshit:
 
The opinion in the OP isn't exactly new. Maurice Keen (1968) expresses a similar view iirc.

Riddick said:
2. I think people confuse political rallys for religion being blameworthy. If 90% of a population is religious it naturally follows that politicians will cite "God" in an effort to influence people. If 90% of a population is atheist it naturally follows that politicians will cite "atheism" in an effort to influence people. Leaders and politicians paying lip service to religion or atheism and using peoples self interests as a lever to influence them doesn't implicate religion or anything else as a cause of something, imo.
Medieval Europe was united by two key ideas. The idea of a political unity represented by the Holy Roman Emperor and religious unity represented by the Pope. The two were implicitly linked together and represented a European culture which had existed for several hundred years before the first crusade. I think that your point has some validity for a society which is secular (even if it is secular in name only). But in the case of the middle ages you have a society which is essentially bound together by religion going to war with a society which is bound together by another religion. Although there were certainly other factors, the Pope was not just paying lip service in this instance.

Mockingjay said:
Wasn't Hitler's main reason to cause a war was to stamp out The jewish, making Religion a primary cause for the war? he also spit on the catholic religion.(Despiite being Catholic himself...apparently). Religion was Hitler's main motivation. It became his focus so much he tried to go after the world because he wanted to kill and persecute all the jews.
I wouldn't say Hitler's primary motivation for war was to stamp out the Jews, although this was a key feature of his regime. But rather his pursuit of expansion was the main cause of WWII. Firstly Hitler desired to reclaim territories that were lost in WWI and assimilate areas with a strong ethnic German population hence why he expanded into Austria, the Rhineland and the Sudetenland before the war started. Secondly Hitler hated communists and Slavs. He believed they were sub-human and he considered their land 'living space' for Germans. This prompted his expansion into Poland (which prompted Britain and France to declare war on him) and East Europe in general.

Hitler obviously hated Jews too but this had nothing to do with the cause of WWII. Anti-antisemitism was a strong feature of German society but not the main motivation for the war itself.
 
"They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands."

Religion.

"At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense."

Religion.

"The second goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and the other places made holy by the life of Christ. "


Religion.

Etc.

Also, he never actually says religion isn't the reason for the Crusades. What he's saying is that the Crusades weren't started by bloodthirsty Christians hellbent on converting the heathen Muslims. But instead, they were in response to the aggression of the Muslims. Muslims who believed in conversion by the sword.

Side note: Madden is generally considered to be the top scholar in the U.S. when it comes to the Crusades. So he's legit.





Well Im sorry but I refuse to believe that it got started by muslims. I always believed Christians deliberately tried to eradicate the muslims. He's legit so I just have to believe what he says. I dont know what to believe, but this does seem biased.
 
Well Im sorry but I refuse to believe that it got started by muslims. I always believed Christians deliberately tried to eradicate the muslims. He's legit so I just have to believe what he says. I dont know what to believe, but this does seem biased.

I don't think he's necessarily saying that Muslims started the crusades but rather the crusades were started because there was a perceived threat of a Muslim invasion. Such a perceived threat isn't particularly outlandish considering that Islamic tribes had already invaded southern Spain (the Moors). Additionally the Aghlabids were able to invade Sicily from which they could attack mainland Italy; notably they were able to, and did in fact, attack Rome (the center of Christianity). So a perceived threat of a Muslim invasion would have been justified imo.
 
The entire article is about that, I shouldn't have to read it for you. Nonetheless I have, and picked the main piece where he nptes Muslim aggression being down to their beliefs. As such the Crusades were a response to a religious war

"From the safe distance of many centuries, it is easy enough to scowl in disgust at the Crusades. Religion, after all, is nothing to fight wars over. Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years."

There you are. Also The Author called it the true history of the crusades, he never comes close to saying they were not caused by religion
 
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From the perspective of medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders' task to defeat and defend against them.

I dont believe that at all. Crusaders so called defensive? Only because they had to defend themselves? They were offensive as much as muslims.
So basically they started the crusades in preparations for the Muslims offense. This is sugarcoated a lot.

They were jealous and afraid and they had to counter attack. That is the truth imo.

I just cant believe everything in here. A lot makes sense, but he talks about it like they were heroes of tht time.
Its super sugarcoated!
 
From the perspective of medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders' task to defeat and defend against them.

I dont believe that at all. Crusaders so called defensive? Only because they had to defend themselves? They were offensive as much as muslims.
So basically they started the crusades in preparations for the Muslims offense. This is sugarcoated a lot.

In response to Muslim aggression. Not in preparation for. The Moors had taken virtually all of the Iberian Peninsula by 711 CE. The First Crusade was in 1096. I do agree that the Crusades were an aggressive undertaking, but as they say, sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

Ohri said:
They were jealous and afraid and they had to counter attack. That is the truth imo.

There has to first be an attack before one can counter-attack, no?

Ohri said:
I just cant believe everything in here. A lot makes sense, but he talks about it like they were heroes of tht time.
Its super sugarcoated!

Crusaders were heroes of that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade#Inspiration_to_the_future
 
That's actually sorta what I have always been taught about the Crusades, that the Muslims were taking over land and what not and oppressing the Christians.

Whether or not how it started, it was a disgusting war. In the end many crusaders were just doing it for money. Well that's what I was taught anyway :hmmm: Idk, I'm forgetting my eighth grade curriculum.
 
In response to Muslim aggression. Not in preparation for. The Moors had taken virtually all of the Iberian Peninsula by 711 CE. The First Crusade was in 1096. I do agree that the Crusades were an aggressive undertaking, but as they say, sometimes the best defense is a good offense.



There has to first be an attack before one can counter-attack, no?



Crusaders were heroes of that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade#Inspiration_to_the_future

Im not a major in history btw. I should rephrase that. I shall change counterattack into preemptive attack cause God knows who initiated the first attack. I always believed the christians. Violence is indeed there just look at the witch season lol

Truth is I have never been a fan of history purely because its about humans. Humans tend to sugarcoat and fabricate a lot. It makes me hard to believe a lot. Wish I had a time machine, I would look up Jesus and what not.
 
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