Guys, Girls and Gender roles

[Eight]

One word: Individuality.

Gender has nothing to do with how smart someone is, how they think, or their emotions. At the end of the day, it's all down to their personality and who the person is, but I must give you one thing, it can seem like many people's personality do reflect their gender.

 

[Contra Fates]

hmm... wow i don't understand why you guys have to bash me over this, it's not like i am even talking about you guys. i figured we were going to debate in this thread but i guess i was wrong.

and i said pretty girls are usually full of themselves, i wasn't saying they all were. i said "i don't really know how to explain this", basically what i mean is i don't feel like writing a couple paragraphs just for a smart alac to come along and bash me. this is fucking pathetic, just a bunch of online smart asses.

For future reference, the debate forums are meant for just that: debating. Debating means people discuss their viewpoints, differing or otherwise. Debate is supposed to be kept impersonal, so the topic at hand can be talked about, not certain people. People will not always agree with you in the debate section, and, usually, longer posts are necessary, so people can explain their thoughts and views more thoroughly.

Your opinion came across as offensive to some people, and since this is a rather touchy subject, they responded how they felt about it. You weren't being bashed, but your viewpoint was. Don't take things personally if someone disagrees with you, because differing opinions make the world go round. If you feel that you were right and they were wrong, then by all means, provide a well thought out and detailed post, and prove it.

To be on topic: This thread is full of generalizations, so I'm only going to discuss a few things. It's a bit unfair to make gender-judgments, since not everyone on this forum is from the same area and same background. Women from the previous generation had to deal with a lot more prejudice than today. In the 50's, 60's and even into the 70's and 80's, women were really only seen in 'office' jobs.' It's only been in the 90's and in the Millennium that women are beginning to make their way into male-dominated areas, such as police work, firemen work, surgeons, etc.

I'd say the differences between men and women are becoming less and less with the times. For example, for hundreds and thousands of years [except in some areas, such as Athens] women were very oppressed. They were almost always dominated by men, and forced to do 'women's work,' such as taking care of the children, preparing the meals, sewing, etc.

If you really think about it, it's been less than a hundred years that women have began to have equal standing in the world. [Again, not in all of the World.] So, I think it's fair to say that the 'defining gender differences' may become different as time goes on.

 

[Coco]

Funny, we just discussed this this afternoon during my Social Sciences subject.
My professor opened the day's topic with:

"The difference between men and women is that men have penises and women do not."

Our topic went on about how society is more lose with men than women.

For example, if a man has slept with 100 women, he is given praise for this and is considered as a sex god. If a woman has slept with 100 men, she is condemned and is regarded as a prostitute.

Society has dictated that men are a stronger prescence than women.

In my opinion though, I think that women are slowly making an impression in this generation that we are to be equal with men. There are now women CEOs and it is now alright for women to work. Women are not just homemakers anymore, but breadwinners as well.

In conclusion, I think, finally, the genders are slowly becoming equal.

 

[der Astronom]

I don't know what to think of the gender differences. I used to think that they were all equal, and never made any conclusions as to what a female must be, or what a male must be, apart from the obvious physical differences. I hear people say different things about them, and there are stereotypes and generalizations, none of which I in particular fit. One thing I have heard about them is that the distribution of intelligence in guys tends to be very wide ranging. So you'll have a lot of guys that are either really intelligent or really stupid--you rarely ever find ones that are just somewhere in between. And the girls are apparently more moderately distributed; most of them tend to be somewhere around the middle. But there are plenty of stereotypes of genders in movies and other media--sadly, very few popular ones break away from this. Most of the heroes are men; most of the people that get saved are princesses or ladies; most of them desire affection or attention; very few of them defend themselves--and they're particularly emotional. I have also heard of the stereotype that guys are more logical and women are more social and emotional--of course, this is only a generalization; there are female mathematicians, some of which were particularly impressive at what they did--Gauss even corresponded with one of them.

I found his letter to Germain quite amusing (She was afraid Gauss would reject her, so she disguised herself as a guy called Le Blanc):

But how to describe to you my admiration and astonishment at seeing my esteemed correspondent Monsieur Le Blanc metamorphose himself into this illustrious personage who gives such a brilliant example of what I would find it difficult to believe. A taste for the abstract sciences in general and above all the mysteries of numbers is excessively rare: one is not astonished at it: the enchanting charms of this sublime science reveal only to those who have the courage to go deeply into it. But when a person of the sex which, according to our customs and prejudices, must encounter infinitely more difficulties than men to familiarize herself with these thorny researches, succeeds nevertheless in surmounting these obstacles and penetrating the most obscure parts of them, then without doubt she must have the noblest courage, quite extraordinary talents and superior genius. Indeed nothing could prove to me in so flattering and less equivocal manner that the attractions of this science, which has enriched my life with so many joys, are not chimerical, [than] the predilection with which you have honored it.

 

[Dark-Angel]

In the past, males and females had set roles. men were the breadwinners and the women nurtured the kids and cleaned. Easy as that. Today, that is bullshit

We no longer live in a society of male and female as we used to. Just...people.
More women work that what we used to have and more men are being "housewives". However the differnec is, that women to TEND to be emotional and more sypathetic compared with males. Males to TEND to be slighlty less caring than the femal counterparts. Howvere there are still men who act more feminine and women who act more boyish but at the end of the day...

We all have our individuality. The only reason why roles have changed in this modern world is because there is more individuality

 

[aerocrystal]

To the guy that posted about emotional receptors, can you explain what you mean more?

Anyway, I have done a lot of feminist and gender studies reading. Feminism does not mean you think women are better than men. Modern feminism asks people to not only look at the stereotypes of women, but of the stereotypes applied to men as well. Femininity relies on masculinity. In order to define itself, a gender needs other genders.

First of all let's define the word gender. Gender is your socially constructed sexual identity. Depending on what culture, area, family, time period you live in, what it means to be a man or a woman changes. Some cultures recognize more than two genders. In America, attractive young women are encouraged to wear less clothing or clothing that draws attention to them to stand out. That is what it means to be a pretty women. In many middle eastern countries, pretty young women are encouraged to cover themselves and not stand out.

Gender can also differ based on what class you are within a society. In the industrial age, if you were poor and female it would be perfectly acceptable for you to get a job and not mind being dirty. If you were were rich and female, you should faint at the thought of going into a mine or a factory. Exaggerations, yes, but it helps prove my point. The poor and the rich women are biologically the same sex but they are different genders because the behavior they are supposed to have to make themselves attractive towards the male gendered is different.

We could apply this example to men too. Hugh Hefner is expected to act a certain way and present himself in a way sexually. Yet, the way Hugh Hefner presents himself and acts would never be okay for most of the American male population. Despite what some men might argue, I'd say that few men would even feel comfortable, when it really came down to it, if they lived like Hugh Hefner. Both Hugh Hefner and you're average joe are biologically male but they are expected to express that maleness in different ways. Let me put it a different way. Certain kingdoms or tribes in the past have had kings that are given numerous wives and concubines, and this is acceptable for their gender, but other men in the same society would never be allowed to live like that not incite anger. Even within a society that doesn't recognize more than two genders in their language, still could arguably have more than two, as depending on who you are in the society how you present yourself as attractive and normal is different.

Sex is biologically what someone is, which some might argue, is the simple way deciding what someone or something is. You may argue that along with male or female genatalia comes certain other characteristics such as different hormones, different muscle mass, brain size and structure, Ect. But it's not simple. According to some statistics, 3-5 percent of all births
have some kind of genital deformation or gland disorder that makes the individual not typically, completely male or female. We just don't hear about it because normally these individuals are given an operation close to birth or they are prescribed hormones. Since classical times, records have been written of people who do not seem to physically fit within either sex. There are stories of men who begin to menstruate (they are probably women with elongated clitorises that resemble penises), girls that grow penises at puberty, and true hermaphrodites among other disorders. I have known numerous people who are on estrogen or testosterone because their own body doesn't make enough to make them what we consider "normal."

The same tissue and structures that form the vagina and clitoris can also form the penis and the testes. During development, the formation of both kinds of sex organs are surprisingly similar up to a certain point. There are are extreme versions of both kinds of sex organs and their are inbetweens as well.

This brings me to my other point, if there can be in-between genatalia, then I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that any other aspect of biological sex (such as muscle mass, hormones, breast size, body hair, brain differences) can differ dramatically amongst healthy individuals as well. This is why, I think it is partially false to make broad generalizations even about people biologically.

Let me put it this way. Even someone were to prove that true, biological women and the female brain was less logical than the most biologically male brain based purely on brain chemistry (I don't believe this is true, mind you this is just an example), we still could not automatically judge someone who seems male or female because amongst various healthy individuals within a population one sex characteristic doesn't always mean they have other typical sex characteristics. If an individual can be born with in-between genatalia then why not an in-between brain or in-between muscles? I hope I'm making sense here.

Now, I'm not saying I'm completely against saying that men tend to be one way and women tend to be another. I've generalized about genders and sexes before because, of course, there are trends. What is important is to not meet people and automatically judge them. I shouldn't think that every male I meet is emotionally stunted and promiscuous. I think its okay to say, a lot of men have more trouble expressing their emotions than women, which may be true or not, whether is has to do with a trend in male sexed brains or with how they are raised and taught to present themselves as gender male.

What isn't okay is to not hire a man who seems perfect for the daycare you run because you think he isn't nurturing because he is male.

It's okay to say that more women like make-up and bright colors than men, for whatever reason. It's not okay to not hire a woman who is perfect for a construction job because you think automatically she won't want to get dirty because she is a woman.

We have to accept the fact that stereotypes go both ways are limiting to individuals. It is okay to generalize sometimes, but we should treat individuals as individuals and not as stereotypes.

Furthermore, to the posters that say they don't see sexism. Just compare the salaries of men and women in nearly every country. Compare statistics on sexual violence or on numbers in politicians and jobs that come with lots of power. Men are favored in positions of power. I sympathize that some gender stereotypes stop men from being who they are, but women are still getting the shittier end of the stick.

 

[der Astronom]

When I said they were equal, I meant that their abilities are more or less the same--I don't think of women any less than men, nor do I see the converse. I only mean to say that I did not think women were different from men except in physical appearances.

Apparently, something that accounts for girls that act like guys is the amount of testosterone present when they're still developing.

 

[Red_Mage]

I don't think inequality is a major issue anymore, frankly. At least, not in places like North America and the UK. The people who differentiate the genders more than just physically are the morons, the ones you think are stupid. I could understand hating way back when inequality was mainstream, but now it's taken a back seat.

If you watch TV, there's nothing but stereotypes. Men are stupid morons, women are naaggy housecleaners, and it doesn't matter because, say, the Simpsons or Family Guy. Those shows use these stereotypes, but... It's funny. Racism or Sexism isn't making a little stereotype or joke, it's actually hating or looking down upon what you are not.