Final Fantasy VIII Paradox/Theories *Spoilers*

[FinalFantasyVIICC]

As you are well aware Final Fantasy VIII ends with Sorceress Ultimecia's defeat and Squall informs the past Edea about Garden and SeeD which is what causes SeeD and Garden to be created, this in itself should cause a paradox. Edea states that she shall receive Ultimecia's powers this is after she is defeated by Squalls party and so there should forever be a time loop in which Squall is destined to defeat Ultimecia countless times. Edea states after her fight with Squall's party ''I have waited for this day to come. And also feared this day would come.'' Edea accepted Ultimecia's Powers to prevent one of 'her children' from becoming a sorceress, she knew all along Squall would defeat Ultimecia and so they should forever be in a time loop. However, the end of the game shows Squall and Rinoa kissing on the balcony of Balamb Garden which tells us that there is no time loop and although the present Squall should not exist, he infact does; this is all due to Rinoa being Sorceress Ultimecia. There are many theories that Squall died in disc one and Rinoa juntioned Squall to Griever and she fell into complete despair, her sorrow turned into hate and she forgot who she was due to the GF's. However I believe that this is not the case, the only reason why there was no paradox after the party defeated ultimecia and informing Edea about Garden was due to Rinoa; she still has to become Ultimecia and so the present Squall still exists only to serve that purpose, he would presumably die in the future and Rinoa would become Ultimecia and the whole cycle would start anew.

Though much of my words have been written in excitement and some-what confusion, I have a second theory. Many of you have probably heard of the theory that Squall died in Disc one and I believe that it is possible that all of it is a dream which would explain why there was no paradox after the party defeated Ultimecia and informed Edea about garden and they why they still exist... the dream defies the laws of time and existance. When the human body is about to die a chemical known as DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) is released which allows said person to dream and so one can assume that Squall did infact die after being struck by Edea's spell and pierced through the stomach by an ice shard and then went into a state of dream and dreamed all of the following (after disc one) events. At the start of Disc two Squall is met by a Moomba and as the game progresses he is encountered by other strange beings which can be considered 'imaginary' this insinuates the fact that Squall is infact dead. Furthermore, Rinoa seems to fall in love with Squall very soon after stating that he is a bad leader and showing no affection what-so-ever towards him aswell as being previously in love with Seifer. Towards the climax of the game Squall begins to forget Rinoas face and remembers all of his life as it flashes before him, this could possibly be another sign that he is dead and is slowly forgetting everyone.

I have just finished playing Final Fantasy VIII and I have many theories but also many questions... the main subject that I am pondering is the paradox and why there was not one and why Squall and everyone else still exist despite the fact that they should be stuck in a time loop and the present Squall should cease to exist, however that was quickly met by my theory about them still existing due to Rinoa still needing to become Ultimecia in order for the cycle to restart. Please comment and feel free to suggest your theories and make sense of this game which has left me confused.

Thanks for reading

 

[Sheechiibii]

I'm not sure where to start really. I'll start with the ending, since I'm not sure why you think Squall should cease to exist. Time was compressed when Squall ended up in the past, after defeating Ultimecia time began to return to normal, but instead of returning to his own time with everyone else, Squall got lost and ended up following Ultimecia to the past where she passed on her powers to Edea. Squall tried to get back to his own time, but he was stuck in Limbo (this is mentioned before you go into time compression) which is a place of vast nothingness. He knew to get back he had to remember his friends, the people he loved and cared about, so that they could serve as an anchor for him to get back. But because he had been there so long he started forgetting everything he knew, until he couldn't even remember who he was. That's what the images were, of all his friends and Rinoa in particular, he was trying to keep them in his mind so that he could get back home, but he failed. The only reason he lives is because of Rinoa. Rinoa is the last sorceress, and has the abilities of every Sorceress in the game, because of this, and because she's always been much more able to form connections to people, she managed to go to limbo and find Squall and bring him back with her.

Rinoa is the last sorceress in the world when the game ends. But she's not Ultimecia. Ultimecia is from a time many hundred of years in the future, and Sorceresses don't live any longer than any regular humans, so Rinoa will be long dead and her powers passed on numerous times before Ultimecia is alive. So, cool as many people find that theory, it can't be true.

The loop you speak of doesn't mean that the characters continue to repeat themselves over and over. It stops after Ultimecia's death. It goes (this is a basic rundown) in this order:
Events before the game starts:
1) Ellone's power is discovered and Doctor Odine records studies of it.
2) Ultimecia and Squall arrive in the past. Ultimecia dies and passes on her powers to Edea and Squall gives her the idea for Garden and SeeD.
3) Edea and Cid create Garden and raise the children from the orphanage there, including Squall and co.
Events during the game:
4) Edea is possessed by Ultimecia and starts the events in the game.
5) Squall and co enter time compression, kill Ultimecia and step 2 happens.
6) Squall and co return from the compressed time, and continue to live their lives until they die.
Events after the game:
7) Hundreds of years in the future, the studies done on Ellone's power produce a machine that can send minds back in time.
8) Ultimecia is born, inherits Sorceress powers from someone, uses the Ellone Junction machine to get to the past so that she can compress time, and step 4 happens.
9) Ultimecia enters time compression, but ultimately fails and dies in the past.

Why you think Squall should cease to exist kind of has me stumped, but maybe this will halp sort out what you're confused about.

As for the Squall is Dead theory. I'd say it has as much merit as saying that Cloud is dead for the entire game and is dreaming the whole thing up. After all Sepheroth stabbed him through the chest in Nebelheim. Squall's wound wasn't as fatal as that, so him surviving it isn't surprising, especially considering Ultimecia wanted information from him, being the leader. It would be different if this wasn't a FF game, and things like chocobos and moogles weren't normal for these worlds.

 

[Galadín]

Is the fact that Squall is alive after disc one without any explaination as to how exactly he survived, the point at which people get confused and a bit confounded with the storyline? Certainly the pace and plot seems to change entirely and, the reasonable, rational and standard (but ultimately engaging) story begins to morph into something that includes space travel, madcap scientists and three Galbadian soldiers appearing in the game in ernest.

There are some parts of the game that still need explaining, for example, why did Squall and his present company enter the past to see through the eyes of Laguna, Kiros and Ward? Since Ellone is alive during Squall's Balamb years why not just tell him of the events of the past (when she was a little girl)? She was there in Balamb in disc one so why the dreams? This to me seems deliberately confusing.

Also, precisely what is the funtion of Griever in this game. If Squall indeed didn't die (which I don't think he did) then what is the significance of this GF which seems to have stemmed from Rinoa's strange fixation on Squall's ring? And why or how does Ultimecia get to posess it?


Another question I have is regarding the point in which Squall and company arrive in Ultimecia's time. When they enter the future there are dead SeeD soldiers just before reaching her castle. Upon noticing them Squall says "...Future SeeDs...We're fighting across generations." My question is this; if indeed Squall and company are not trapped in a time loop, then why are SeeDs fighting across generations? Since Squall defeats Ultimecia in his own time, why are SeeDs even in existance since the last Sorceress is Rinoa and Squall is leader of the original SeeD garden? At that stage Cid and Edea have stepped down and are no longer having an active role in the running of Garden. If this is the case, then why are anti-sorceress troops still being trained years and years later? Is it that Squall surmises that "All right we had better keep up the training of anti-sorceress troops in order to try and defeat the Sorceress that I killed in the past in the future"....??? He knows that ultimately those SeeDs are not going to be able to stop her, so where is the logic in that? I'm just a little bit puzzled in regards to this point.

Lastly, why does Ultimecia have her powers in the first place? Since Rinoa is the last sorceress, why would she pass on her powers when she knows that ultimately Ultimecia will inherit them in the future?

I agree with Sheechiibii's logic and chain of events explaination. However, I would like to see the above events to be slotted in there somewhere in the same logical pattern since I too am a bit lost as to how they fit in.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Squall's wound was not that fatal, he got stabbed through the shoulder, there would have been plenty time to heal him up. The explanation for why he was saved was that they wanted to interrogate him, being the leader of the SeeD group sent to kill the sorceress. It makes a lot of sense that they'd heal him up to get information rather than just let him die. Remember, Ultimecia knows that SeeD are the ones to kill her, and wants to make sure that doesn't happen.

I don't think the story gets any more complicated than any other FF game. The first disk was for introducing the characters, establishing relationships, the fundamental back story and ideology of the game. That's why maybe it seems like not so much goes on in it.

Ellone sent them into the past hoping they could change it. She didn't know that it was impossible. She wasn't just trying to show them the past, she was trying to save Raine, or make sure Laguna stayed in Winhill with her while she died, so that he'd see his baby. But over the course of the game the more she sends them back she comes to realise that there is no way to change the past. That's why she says to Squall that he's her last hope, and why after they speak to each other through their minds she tells him that she's realised it's impossible.

There is no GF Griever before Ultimecia draws him from Squall. Ultimecia draws the image of the most powerful being from Squall's mind during the last battle. Because Griever is a symbol of power for him, that's the image she comes away with. She basically creates a GF using Squall's idea of a powerful symbol.

As for SeeD still being around and fighting. After the events of the game, SeeD probably went back to being regular mercenaries. But Rinoa will only live as long as the average human, and when she dies she will have to pass her powers onto someone and there's no guarantee that the person she passed her powers to will not use them for evil. If that were to happen, then SeeD would have to try and stop her. Sorceress powers don't die with the sorceress, Rinoa won't be the last Sorceress to exist. It's not a choice they make, it's impossible for them not to pass their powers on before they die. Of course, in Ultimecia's time (unless there's other events gone on to change this) then there will be no Sorceress after Ultimecia dies, since she's the last and because she passes her power on to someone in the past, therefore meaning that in her time nobody has sorceress powers. So from that point on there will be no need for SeeD to train to fight sorceresses.

I hope that makes more sense now? I love this game to pieces and have played it so many times that the story doesn't confuse me in the least any more lol I think it might have the first time, but truthfully I can't remember now.

 

[Galadín]

That does make more sense and ultimately makes the story very clear indeed. Thank you for that.

In regards to Ellone, she may have succeeded better if she told Squall a bit more before sending him back. But that's just to do with her rather than the story.
Would you think this is just a fault of her's or was it a deliberate thing?

 

[Sheechiibii]

That does make more sense and ultimately makes the story very clear indeed. Thank you for that.

In regards to Ellone, she may have succeeded better if she told Squall a bit more before sending him back. But that's just to do with her rather than the story.
Would you think this is just a fault of her's or was it a deliberate thing?

[FONT=Batang, serif]It was a deliberate thing. Even if they had known what she was trying to do, they had no control over the person who they were inside the mind of. The only one capable of being able to control the person they are inside of would be a sorceress. That's why Ultimecia uses the Ellone Junction machine to possess other sorceresses. But to any regular person, Ellone's powers only transfer the mind, and lets them see how events transpired in the past. Ellone didn't understand how her power worked in the first place, and she didn't know that the people she was sending back couldn't make a difference, but she wanted to try anyway, because she hated how her family had been torn apart. Once she'd sent Squall and co back enough times though, she realised that it was futile. [/FONT]

 

[Galadín]

Ok, I'm good with that. In fact those explainations have made the game better to me. I was a little bit bothered by some of those points in the storyline that I found difficult to get my head around. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Sheechiibii]

[FONT=Batang, serif] yay. I'm glad I could help. [/FONT]

 

[HLEV]

So, is it generally accepted that it's a paradox, or are there any plausible theories supposedly explaining the fact that Squall came from the future to tell about SeeD?
I came up with something, but am not sure if this can work, as I don't remember everything from the game, so something may contradict it. Well anyway, here goes.

ORIGINAL TIMELINE
These are the events that happened originally, before any time travel.

• Edea and Cid create the Gardens and SeeD. The purpose of SeeD is what we see early in the game: doing missions, helping people, etc., although it may've been created for any other reason (even Sorceress-specific).
• Everyone lives happily ever after, until that time comes when Ultimecia sends her mind back in time and takes over Edea. This is where the timeline gets altered.

ALTERED TIMELINE
These are the events that happened when Ultimecia sent her mind back in time in order to do Time Compression.

• Edea and Cid create the Gardens and SeeD. The purpose of SeeD is what we see early in the game: doing missions, helping people, etc., although it may've been created for any other reason (even Sorceress-specific).
• Ultimecia takes control of Edea.
• Events of FF8 happen. Defeated, Ultimecia goes to the past and gives Edea her powers. Squall follows, and informs Edea of the SeeD. This alters the timeline a little again.

AGAIN ALTERED TIMELINE
These are the events that happened when Ultimecia and Squall went to the past.

• Edea and Cid create the Gardens and SeeD. The purpose of SeeD is to fight the Sorceress if one ever threatens the humanity.
• Ultimecia takes control of Edea.
• Events of FF8 happen.

The events we see in FF8 could either take place in the altered timeline or the again altered timeline.

From what I've seen, most people are under the assumption that SeeD was created only because Squall told Edea about it. However the main purpose of SeeD was already forgotten during the events of FF8, yet the Gardens were still operational. So if they don't need the reason as good as "to defeat the Sorceress" for the Gardens to operate, perhaps they didn't need one for the Gardens to be created neither (in the original and altered timelines)? And then there's the fact that in the past, Adel showed how evil a Sorceress can be, so the main purpose for Gardens and SeeD could pretty much remain the same, just with Ultimecia not taken into account.

What do you think?

 

[Sheechiibii]

Yeah I'd say that's probably pretty accurate. We won't ever really know what the original timeline was, since the only timeline we see in the game happens after Ultimecia and Squall have already given Edea the idea in the past (we know this because Cid mentions how Matron started talking about SeeD mercenaries fighting Sorceresses one day). How the Garden and SeeD initially came to be is pretty much a mystery. There could have been a whole different set of events, but we'll never know since they were overwritten.