QuickSilverD
I Think... Therefore You Are
Lesson learned, don't discuss with Christians lol... ... ... uhmp
Atheism
- Thread starter RoseDincht
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OmniscientOnus
Blue Mage
I didn't really read all of the other posts on this thread because I didn't want to lose my train of thought before I was able to speak on it. So, if I am basically reposting someone else's opinions, I am sorry. With that said...
If you know much of anything about religions such as Christianity, then you would understand that people are told to be the prophets of their own religion. They are supposed to try and spread the word around, to try and show people the "truth". Now, I'm not saying that this gives them the right to bash on atheists, but it (in a way) does give them the right to speak openly, and honestly, about it when and how they feel is the most appropriate.
If a Christian walks around believing in God, but keeping it to his or her self, then they are not following their own belief structure. The idea that Christians are trying to get across is that they are trying to save people from an afterlife of eternal pain and suffering.
Let's consider the following:
We'll create a hypothetical situation that, while is different from the topic, will eventually relate back to it and possibly shed a new view on an old issue. Let us assume that, by some freak of nature, you were able to catch a glimpse of the future. In this foreshadowing you see your mother run down by a semi while she was standing in traffic. You don't know the exact date, time, or even place, but you do "know" that what you saw is going to happen. Let's also presume that you "know" that by getting your mother to not be in that place would save her life.
So, obviously, you quickly run out and tell your mother what you "know" to be true. She listens to you speak, but in the end she says that you are just imagining things, that this vision wasn't real and that you shouldn't worry. Frustrated, you persist. For awhile your mother tolerates your lectures, but never quite takes to the idea. But, after awhile she starts getting mad at you. She tells you that it is not your place to tell her what you believe.
Now, you don't want your mother to die, (let's assume that you don't) right? Well, are you really going to care that she's mad at you now if you can save her life? Of course not. You are going to yell and scream, give her subtle hints, do anything you can do to save her.
This is the same thing that a Christian is doing (in theory, some are just plain old assholes who want you to believe just because they do). So, in a way you can't be too mad at them. I understand that it may disrupt your tiny little piece of world that you cling to on a daily basis, trying to make the best of. But what they believe they are doing is trying to save you from the worst fate imaginable.
Does trying to save someones life, whether you love them, or even know them, or not, really ever fall into the classification as forcing? Christian beliefs state that every man is ultimately responsible for their own actions, so any Christian knows that forcing you is not only impossible, but were it possible, would negate the whole point of what they are preaching altogether.
Now, on a second note, these Christians are also trying to save themselves. Their God, their messiah, their master, is commanding that they carry out this action. To not would mean their own death sentence. So, to them, it really doesn't matter whether or not you like them nagging you all the time, it matters that they (and hopefully you) avoid the eternal pain and suffering that looms above them every passing moment of every single day.
I think that you should let the Christians that are bugging you know that you are thankful that they tried, maybe even that you will look into the subject just to appease them. And, maybe, just maybe, you actually should. It might not be a bad idea to pick up the book and study it, do a little praying, and what not. The absolute worse case scenario that could arise is that in the end you still don't believe and that you "wasted" a short period of your life. On the other hand, say that you pick it up and then realize that they were right all along. You may have just saved yourself misery and suffering for all eternity. Either way, once they know that they have gotten you to take a serious consideration of the matter, they will most likely drop it. And, you can then let other, future, naggers of religion be aware that you've already looked into it, and are still firm in your decision.
Give the Christians who are actually following their own beliefs a break. If nothing else, they have the right under the 1st amendment to speak freely about what they believe.
As for the Atheists, well, religion bashing is just counter productive. Especially for those who want the religious nagging to cease. Nothing will make a human pursue you more than tearing down his or her belief structures. If you go into a forum and start verbally spitting on the Bible and God, you're bound to get a load of people who will try and defend them. After all, for a Christian, God is more important than anything else in this world, or the next. And, even if he weren't, wouldn't you defend someone you love if someone else starting bashing them?
I say that we try to live in peace. Let the Christians talk about religion, let the Atheists state why they don't believe, but lets leave the bashing of either belief alone. As for shoving any one belief on another, well, in most cases, it's only shoving if you look at it as such. And, if it is indeed shoving, then, really... only the Christians have a good reason to be shoving. Their beliefs pretty much say they have to.
Note: While I used Christians and Atheists to argue my thoughts and ideas on the subject, I am not trying to leave the other religions out. It's just easier to debate the subject (for me at least) by using the two I know the most about.
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According to freedom of speech, they're allowed to do it. People will just think they're either delusional or persistently annoying. And there is a point in which I think they should give up on some people because they can't reach them, and any other attempts at it would become pointless. And they draw the line when they come to the point where they are actually shoving their religions down other people's throats and interfering with their way of life. Technically, it's nobody's business but their own.
Some Christians will disagree with that, but I digress.
I wouldn't go so far as to yell and scream at her. If I have done all that I can to show her the door, but she won't walk through it, I can't do that for her. It's up to the individual to choose to walk through the door or not, and no one can force him to.
I don't think they should be concerned with me. They should be concerned with whether or not what they're really doing, trying to interfere with the lives of people they don't know and trying to change their lifestyles, that has nothing to do with them, or trying to preach religious intolerance by calling down other people's religions, or by saying that Christianity is the only way to go is really the right thing to do.
You can be forcing someone to be saved, if you try hard enough. Again, this all boils down to who walks through that door, and it is, in the end, the individual himself who does that. But the individual can feel pressured enough that he feels his only choice is to walk through the door. And if Christians preach at him enough to make him walk through that door, and feels that he has no other choice, then he is being forced to do something that he possibly doesn't like. It's not about whether or not the choice is the individual's responsibility; it's about whether or not the individual likes the choice he has made. And if he does not like it because he was being pressured to make that choice from other people, then he is being forced.
The problem is, not everyone thinks that way, and some would even say that they're wasting their time or are foolish for thinking the way they do. Christians won't listen to logic, and secularists won't listen to faith. In the end, these Christians would only be bashing their heads against the wall.
Most of us do, or already have looked at it. But most of us don't appreciate it because we think they're wasting their time, and because we don't like being told how we should live our lives by people who hardly know who we are, and don't care for their silly tribal myths--as some people might colorfully refer to it as.
Then give us a break, leave us alone, and quit preaching religious intolerance. I think they'd have more success with making up a big seminar event or something where the people who actually do want to hear them preach can go there, and the people who don't won't have to put up with them. Again, they're drawing the line if I do not want them at my door preaching about stuff. They have no obligation to stay at my front door, and they have every right to leave, and get off of my property. They may have the right to say whatever they want, but they do not have the right to force people to change their religions.
We don't bash the bible or religion because of spite; we do it to express why we're atheists or agnostics. Wouldn't you guys on the side of religion like to know why we think you're wasting your time with proselytizing?
Then atheists have a good reason to "bash" religion, as you say. We apparently have to because that's how we explain why we're atheists or agnostics.
OmniscientOnus
Blue Mage
I don't think you quite read what I had to say properly. Take your time, and for my sake, re-read it.
But, this time, maybe you should go into it with the knowledge that, I, myself, am an atheist.
I am not trying to make Christians look better, or defend the ones that go too far with it (the wars for example). I am just stating that, from a Christian standpoint (the ones who are properly following their own faith) it is their duty to preach to you, whether you like it or not, and just because we don't agree with them doesn't mean they don't have the right to do it.
I'm not trying to put down us Atheists either. I'm just saying that while stating why we don't believe is fine, we don't need to bash on their religion, or give it "colorful" terms either.
And, to restate what I've already said, technically speaking, at least the Christians believe that they are doing the right thing by preaching. Us Atheists generally only speak about not believing to defend ourselves. We generally aren't trying to prove a real point other than we would rather believe science over religion.
But, this time, maybe you should go into it with the knowledge that, I, myself, am an atheist.
I am not trying to make Christians look better, or defend the ones that go too far with it (the wars for example). I am just stating that, from a Christian standpoint (the ones who are properly following their own faith) it is their duty to preach to you, whether you like it or not, and just because we don't agree with them doesn't mean they don't have the right to do it.
I'm not trying to put down us Atheists either. I'm just saying that while stating why we don't believe is fine, we don't need to bash on their religion, or give it "colorful" terms either.
And, to restate what I've already said, technically speaking, at least the Christians believe that they are doing the right thing by preaching. Us Atheists generally only speak about not believing to defend ourselves. We generally aren't trying to prove a real point other than we would rather believe science over religion.
I can understand the Christian's reasoning for why they feel they must go around preaching to people, but I still don't appreciate it. Just because they believe it's right doesn't make it right.
How do you deal with pushy, preachy, proselytizing Christians?
I didn't say they didn't, but they should be aware that people get sick and tired of them if they push it too far, and it's no longer necessary for them to preach about it since Christianity is the most popular religion in the world; there's almost no one that doesn't know what it is.
Well, what do you mean by bashing? Is it wrong to say that I don't like God because I think he's a mass murderer because the bible makes him look bad?
Just because they believe it's right doesn't make it right. I don't care for what they believe. It's none of my business, and I believe that it's none of their business what I believe. You're really going to have to explain how they're allowed to do this without committing religious intolerance.
Johnny Mo
Failure is always an option
Too be honest i don't really care about religion at all. As long as they don't try too push their oppinions on me or my family. But when someone trys too force me too think there oppinions are right i will shout scream and curse till im blue in the face to protect my beliefs.
In my oppinion atheism has taken centuries of abuse by everyone , now we start voicing are oppinions and now we are being moaned at.
When i was younger i got abused for my beliefs by my school mainly since i went to a christian school (irony my names christian but im not a christian the librarian thought it was funny). they even banned me from being in the school play, now i wasnt a bad student i just had principals which they didnt like. Before i went there i didnt even know what a god was which i was quickly introduced to i my first day of school.
In my oppinion atheism has taken centuries of abuse by everyone , now we start voicing are oppinions and now we are being moaned at.
When i was younger i got abused for my beliefs by my school mainly since i went to a christian school (irony my names christian but im not a christian the librarian thought it was funny). they even banned me from being in the school play, now i wasnt a bad student i just had principals which they didnt like. Before i went there i didnt even know what a god was which i was quickly introduced to i my first day of school.
Lets step away from the philosophical “values” of atheism and religion for a moment. Sure, I could call Atheists immoral, hypocritical extremists who have no concern for the freedoms of others, just as you could call Christians cruel, controlling elitists who use fear to get their way. I honestly don’t think any amount of debate would change either of those opinions, but here’s some things I’ve noticed from my experiences:
-The majority of people who say the pledge of Allegiance on a regular basis are almost always religious.
-People who come late to school or skip it entirely on a regular basis are more likely to be atheists.
-The majority of religious debates in message boards come from atheists discussing religion.
-Comparatively few threads involve religious followers discussing atheism.
-People who swear often in conversation are most likely non-religious.
-People who actively follow a religion are more likely to get better grades in English and Social Studies than any other group of people.
-Virtually all drug dealers and drug addicts reported in the media are all non-religious.
-The vast majority of US officials reported in the media are religious.
-Atheists are much more likely to verbally attack the inclusion of a religious ideal in the government than any religious follower is likely to attack a “separation of church and state” ideal.
They aren’t stereotypes, they aren’t discrimination, they are just observations based on thousands of experiences meeting people across the country. I’m sure you can find a hundred similar examples that would go against religion (Christianity, specifically), but the point of this is that there are a LOT of things select people do that make my life, and many of the lives of people around me, more difficult, which seems to have a very apparent trend with how much these people believe and practice religion. It’s also means that a lot of philosophical conflicts between people I know become a whole lot more difficult to solve because a specific religion cannot be used as a moral standpoint. I have been a student at over a dozen schools around the country, some private and some public, and based off of those experiences I can say with near complete assurance that a strictly Christian school is much more likely to have less incidents of violence or drug abuse than one that makes no effort to enforce Christian ideals.
If I had a choice between a Christian utopia, where everyone followed the 10 Commandments and Jesus’ teachings to the letter but worked for the betterment of humanity, and an Atheist utopia, where religion is abolished and everyone is free to do whatever they please, I would much rather choose the Christian one. We could argue forever about what good and bad morals are, but I can tell you right now that the basic goal of Christianity- to do unto others as you would have them do unto you- is far less selfish and much more useful than the basic Atheist goal, which is to serve the interests of other atheists. Any clear seeing person can easily see that the US, and the world in general, is much better served by the Christian goal.
-The majority of people who say the pledge of Allegiance on a regular basis are almost always religious.
-People who come late to school or skip it entirely on a regular basis are more likely to be atheists.
-The majority of religious debates in message boards come from atheists discussing religion.
-Comparatively few threads involve religious followers discussing atheism.
-People who swear often in conversation are most likely non-religious.
-People who actively follow a religion are more likely to get better grades in English and Social Studies than any other group of people.
-Virtually all drug dealers and drug addicts reported in the media are all non-religious.
-The vast majority of US officials reported in the media are religious.
-Atheists are much more likely to verbally attack the inclusion of a religious ideal in the government than any religious follower is likely to attack a “separation of church and state” ideal.
They aren’t stereotypes, they aren’t discrimination, they are just observations based on thousands of experiences meeting people across the country. I’m sure you can find a hundred similar examples that would go against religion (Christianity, specifically), but the point of this is that there are a LOT of things select people do that make my life, and many of the lives of people around me, more difficult, which seems to have a very apparent trend with how much these people believe and practice religion. It’s also means that a lot of philosophical conflicts between people I know become a whole lot more difficult to solve because a specific religion cannot be used as a moral standpoint. I have been a student at over a dozen schools around the country, some private and some public, and based off of those experiences I can say with near complete assurance that a strictly Christian school is much more likely to have less incidents of violence or drug abuse than one that makes no effort to enforce Christian ideals.
If I had a choice between a Christian utopia, where everyone followed the 10 Commandments and Jesus’ teachings to the letter but worked for the betterment of humanity, and an Atheist utopia, where religion is abolished and everyone is free to do whatever they please, I would much rather choose the Christian one. We could argue forever about what good and bad morals are, but I can tell you right now that the basic goal of Christianity- to do unto others as you would have them do unto you- is far less selfish and much more useful than the basic Atheist goal, which is to serve the interests of other atheists. Any clear seeing person can easily see that the US, and the world in general, is much better served by the Christian goal.
I'm Agnostic, so my general view on people is this; Christian and keeping to yourself, fine. Christian yet not keepimg to yourself, fuck off. Atheist, buy me a pint. Atheist but only cos its cool, buy me a pint THEN fuck off you little minded prick.
Pretty much sums it up.
Pretty much sums it up.
OmniscientOnus
Blue Mage
From a Christian standpoint, that is exactly what it makes it. From an Atheists standpoint, well, let's just say that I can see why you don't appreciate being nagged to.
To be quite honest, in my twenty years of being in and out of all kinds of churches of just about all of the Christian denominations, being surrounded by a family that is Christian, having friends with all sorts of mixed beliefs, I have never really had too much trouble with people being pushy about their beliefs. My mom will make mention of it here and there because she feels that she is trying to save me from eternal damnation, but other than that, most people just seem to go about their life. Since you asked, I actually think that people need to start reading up and studying about the religion they actually claim to believe in, and become a little more preachy about it.
As for religion in the news, paper, on television and what-not, I just change the channel.
They're just trying to save you man, lighten up. Just because you don't think it's true doesn't mean that it's not. Think about it... when you're burning in hell, you'll be pretty pissed at all the Christians who didn't do a good enough job of trying to get you to convert... assuming they're right of course.
As for most people knowing about it... that's true. But just because everyone knows it exists doesn't mean they know the true beliefs behind it. And besides all of that, as anyone who knows anything about marketing will tell you, word of mouth is the best salesman out there.
Have you even read the Bible?! A mass murderer? God is nothing more than the keeper of peace, and bringer of salvation in that book. Nowhere is God made out to be anything but almighty. Just because you see it that way doesn't mean that HIS book is saying it.
Bashing is an easy term to describe. Anytime you are trying to mock the religion, instead of pointing out where you believe the faults lay.
You don't need to say that "that contradictory, slow reading, book they call the Bible is the biggest piece of trash I've ever read" when you could instead say, "The Bible is difficult for me to believe in because it seems to contradict itself. *site an example or two*"
In order for Atheism to fall under the protection from "religious intolerance" it would first have to be a religion. Since, even in it's most obscure, rarely used, definitions atheism can barely make the slightest claim at being a religion, it really has no protection at all. Research the two words a little bit. If you use some of the less common definitions, and really scrape and dig around, you can only find very little places where they might actually lead you to believe that Atheism might be considered a religion.
A lack of beliefs, which is all that Atheism is (especially relating to a God or Gods) has absolutely nothing to do with religion which is essentially a strict guideline of beliefs.
Who are you people talking to so much that you feel religion is being pushed down your throat? I rarely ever see this happen. Even in churches, around my Christian family, and around my Christian friends, I rarely ever get preached to. I honestly believe you guys are making a mountain out of an imaginary molehill. Even the people on this site who are Christian aren't preaching, even in the religion based part of the forum.
While I don't particularly buy into Adamants beliefs about this topic, he (or she) hit the nail on the head when he (or she) mentioned that religion is mainly being brought up, discussed, and argued about among the Atheists. If you ask me, all you Atheists who are complaining are just out there arguing amongst yourselves, making up all of this hype about religious people pushing their beliefs on you. Maybe you just want something to rebel against, and religion is your outlet?
Until I see some actual evidence of religious people pushing their beliefs on other people (especially often enough to be complained about as much as you all are) I think I'm going to steer clear of the "religious" debates on this forum.
I don't mean to say that I know what's right; maybe nobody does. But I'm the only person who knows what's best for me because I know myself better than anyone else knows me.
There are some people who have had Jehovah's witnesses bother them occasionally because they go from door to door, preaching about their religion, and making disrespectful comments like, "you're going to hell if you don't follow our religion". There are some areas that are worse than others. If you go down south to the bible belt in USA, you will see that most people there are Christian, and if you aren't, they'll treat you badly. It's almost become accepted because of the way society runs there.
Why do you think people should be more preachy about their religion? I still don't think it's anybody's business but your own.
That's never been a concern, as long as the religious folks don't own all the TV channels or news outlets.
I don't think I'm in need of their "saving", and they need to give up trying to bash their heads against the wall. And I'm not ridiculously faithful enough to believe in something as silly as burning in hell because a book that was written 6000 years ago without the aid of science or reasoning said it exists. By the way, that's actually a disrespectful statement that missionaries and Jehovah's witnesses like to throw at you.
I don't think there is a person that knows the truths behind religion because there are always different interpretations and different variations of a religion. Christians don't all agree on slavery, evolution, gender equality, and punishment. Their perspective of the bible is different.
He killed several people from Soddom and Gomorrah, to name just a few because he didn't like them, saying they were "sinners", including the babies that didn't do anything wrong. He couldn't be keeping much of peace if he were responsible for destruction on some level. And even if he were powerful to some degree, I cannot respect his power if he cannot use it properly. The book is responsible for showing his actions, and his actions mean more to me than the statements the bible makes about God being loving.
That's a pretty difficult distinction because I wasn't saying God is a mass murderer without good reason. I said it because that's what was written in the bible, it's my interpretation of it, and I choose not to follow the advice or ways of a mass murderer.
No it doesn't. Religious intolerance would be the act of not allowing anyone to practice any religion (or to practice no religion, if they choose) they wish to have; religious freedom allows you the choice to choose to have a religion or have no religion. It doesn't make much of a difference as long as you're not forcing other people to join your religion. In this case, it has nothing to do with which religion (or no religion) you choose to have. "No religion" is just as good a choice as any other religion.
So let atheists be atheists. It's nobody's business but their own.
You should see that there are religiously intolerant people that hang out on other forums. They're usually just more religion intense, or they are garnered towards fundamentalist groups. Granted, on general purpose forums like these, there are occasional fundamentalists or creationists that stop by and try to preach things. I have had one before at another forum I moderate, which is how I ended up including the proselytizing rule. So don't say it's not going to happen. I realize that means it's not going to be directed at most Christians that don't try to force their religion on other people, but I never said it was, did I? It's one of those unspoken rules where you know it doesn't apply to you if you're not preaching at other people.
There is another, in the disguise of creationism. Creationists tried to push their theory into science, and most atheists and scientists wanted them to stop doing it because creationism is highly unscientific, and these creationists were just trying to use their souped up theory to make people believe in the creation story in religion. So it can't just be athiests discussing things about religion they don't like (and possibly the reason they don't join in on it); there are also creationists and other Christians who try to push their creation theories into science and lie to people about it in an attempt to make people believe in their religion. This is a large concern, especially with people trying to put Intelligent Design (ID) into science.
Just because it's not happening on this forum doesn't mean it's not happening elsewhere.
Basically, I don't mind if they come up to me and ask if I would like to know more about Christianity. They don't already know who I am. As long as they're not condemning me to hell if I choose to decline their request, I wouldn't have a problem. As long as they're clear that I'm not interested in joining their religion because I know enough about it to not want being involved with it, and they don't keep constantly repeating the same proselytizing statements again, and realize that any attempt they have at trying to convert me is like bashing their head against the wall, and they learn that it's pointless and stop, then it's alright. They have every right to respect my decision to decline their request to join their religion because it's about my life, and I have all the rights to it.
OmniscientOnus
Blue Mage
Perhaps I was being a little thick headed, or perhaps this was never quite made clear before, but either way, I really wish you would have said this earlier.
I can completely respect this point of view. I think that if you were to state "no thank you, I would not" to that sentence, and they kept pushing, then they would be out of line. There's no need for anyone to push any harder than that to get their views out there to other people.
As a little side note though, and not to push the issue, but it still seems to me that the people doing all the "pushing" of their religion are still basically made up. Jehovah's witnesses are pretty fuckin' pushy if you do happen to open the door for them, but outside of that I'm not seeing any other people pushing that can't be overly easily ignored. Like on forums for instance... stop reading the threads on religion, just like you would turn off the Catholic channel on TV.
Anyways, I'm glad you brought up that first sentence that I have quoted there. I have a feeling it just saved us a lot of debating on an issue that we already agreed upon.
See, the thing is, you made it sound like you were speaking about these Jehovah's witnesses, and other pushy religious people--that was the focus to begin with, so I assumed you were commenting about them. There wouldn't really be any way to know if the person on your doorstep was a Jehovah's witness unless you could see that he was holding a bible, or something. Otherwise, I would have asked you this next--if your religion says you must kill people otherwise you're going to hell, would you still do it, and would it be acceptable, simply because your religion said so?
I like religious discussion for the debating nature of it. I'm not doing it to get on people's nerves, and I'm not doing it to bash their religion either; I debate why I view religion the way I do and choose not to follow it.
Taylor Swift
A.K.A----> LuLu
I'll give you my point of view on this subject. I dont see how u cant belive in God. I know you cant seiursly belive we came from monkey. But if you do answer me this<> Why are there still monkeys on earth as we speak.
the theory of evolution is not entirely correct. as proved by people that supported social darwinism. but animals must evolve all we wud all b dead. you say how kan u not believe in god. but how are we supposed to believe that god created the earth in 7 days? Christianity wants us 2 believe that there is 1 god. but that wud therefore be saying that all other religions are wrong?
it wud be stupid however 2 say that there is no god as religion is such a powerful thing. it starts so many wars but also brings great happyness n joy.
what im sayin is how kan u realy kno?
lol im an agnostic
it wud be stupid however 2 say that there is no god as religion is such a powerful thing. it starts so many wars but also brings great happyness n joy.
what im sayin is how kan u realy kno?
lol im an agnostic
I
itsgalf
remember, it's not only Christianity that has a monotheistic view.
Because we didn't evolve from monkeys; monkeys and humans evolved from a common ancestor.
And social Darwinism has nothing to do with evolution; social Darwinism is irrelevant to science. It can't disprove evolution.
Taylor Swift
A.K.A----&gt; LuLu
There are two type of evoultion. 1) theres the thory that man envolved from some sort of primate 2) There is the theory about natural secltion. I belive in natural secltion because we can see it happin in our life time. EX: Virus are becoming imune to all of are treatments because of natural selection. The weak one die and the strong on live due to natural selection...... Second of all how can you not belive in God when we have documenty proff that he was real from acient roman documents. The only thing you have to ask your self is<> Does jesus have the powers that they bible says he does.... The documents say that he does, but will we ever know for sure.
And Thats THAT
And Thats THAT
you cant have proof that god exists. but you cant have proof that he doesnt exist. so its up to the individual to decide wether they believe in god. i doubt that jesus has the power to turn water into wine and to feed all those people with fish and bread. but its impossible to prove either way.
even the idea of jesus' birth is very questionable. immaculate conception, i dont see how that could ever work.
even the idea of jesus' birth is very questionable. immaculate conception, i dont see how that could ever work.
Taylor Swift
A.K.A----&gt; LuLu
I agree we dont have proof that god exist in some form unless your a beliver in the bible, but we have proff that jesus is real. The Documents (which were writing by an Officer that was there when Jesus did this miracles) say that he did do these mircales. I know its kinda hard to belive but you have to have FAITH in what you belive in
Your statements come into conflict with one another.
"We have proof that Jesus is real"
"but you have to have FAITH"
These two statements suggest two things to me: either that you don't know the definition of "proof", or you have made some kind of typographical error in your post. Let me explain:
When things have been PROVEN, then there are facts to support a statement and the proven fact cannot be disputed. It's a fact that I have a functioning brain, because it has been proven that the brain sends messages to parts of the body to carry out tasks.
When you have FAITH in something, the "something" does not necessarily have to be proven. The most obvious example is God - God cannot be proven, yet people still believe in him. I could believe that there is a heaven after death, but we cannot prove that. Do you see the difference between the two words?
Basically, what I'm saying is that whatever you believe in DOES NOT PROVE that you are right, or that the statements are factual.