Aerith and her Faith

[GalaxyFlare]

Why do christians try and relate every thing back to there religion?

I suppose it hard not to when your Deity is all encompassing.........and supposedly controls every and all aspects of creation. FFVII has a religion of sorts its just lost on the populace because of the Shinra's abuse of its manifestation: The LifeStream.

You can impose your own interpretation of things on to this game, but it does not make it true.

Sky+ I respect your opinion that YES there are icons of christianity in FFVII but as the guys have said circumstantial proof is not a proof of fact, Why fight so hard to convince others of your beliefs about a game?

The Symbols of purity are just that "Symbols" if they were represented by another religions Style they would have used those, the reason they used christian relics is because it is the predominant religion of earth and many people recognize those relics as signs of purity, you would not b so steadfastly arguing your point if they were symbols of Islam or Hinduism or Quanza: would you?

Its just that, apparently, in your life you have been reared with such symbols and they represent to you something you believe in very strongly:Christianity. it does not make the presence of these artifacts equal to the existence of Christian religion in FFVII.

The reason for there being there is not the same for everyone, to me they represent the fact Aeris/Aerith is pure of heart and allied with good people and Aeris represents a race of people who were highly spiritual: The Ancients, Cetra, the 1st Ones.

These people quite clearly had faith in the planet and the Spiritual energy that roamed the planet The LifeStream.

So your not really wrong in your statements, but your point is not strong enough backed up by the the Fact, that No where in FFVII does it say Aeris is Christain........she is religious just not the same as you you belief, drawing parallels with your own life in games is an aspect that is often overlooked, you found one you belief to be true.

Religion is a funny thing ambiguous, contradictory, not based in fact but in faith, but this is what makes life interesting so many different POV believers non believers I belief in science and to the same extent what kind of religious person does not take there Religion seriously?

 

[VinnieJones]

Well, I believe I heard that FF7 was based or inspired, by America and the real world. Midgar being what? New York. Gold Suacer = Las Vegas.

Probably, if the developers say so. I haven't heard about this but I'll trust you on it. But is Midgar actually New York? Is the Gold Saucer actually Las Vegas? Basing on your opinion about the religion in VII actually being Christianity you probably think so, given that your way of thinking is 'based on this = IT IS THIS!!!'.

See this is the problem we're having here. We can start a new argument about the residents nearby Midgar probably being fans of the Yankees or the Mets because they are from NY. I can use your exact argument to 'prove' this point. A 'nail-bat' exists, so surely Baseball exists too.

Coming from the person who has yet to bring anything intelligent.

Resorting to insults now?

What? Didn't you just say I or the proof we brought, wasn't evidence?

Annoyingly missed out on the quotation marks, my apologies. Based on what I said in that previous post, I hope you'd understand that this isn't some sort of lame attempt to get back on track.

 

[yoboom21]

oh my... what a lengthy discussion.

First I'd like to say (though it may have been said before) that things in games are there, because someone wanted them there, and someone agreed it was a good idea. I'd like to suggest that many people understand the concept of angels, regardless of religion. When you see a Life spell, and an angel is resurrecting you, is it even easy to see another type of figure that would do that? Actually, resurrection itself is not a Christian trait. Next, i'd like to reiterate that Gospel is derived from the Old English form of "Good News" lets think about this. Demon Wall vs. Party w/ Aerith at lvl. 4 Limit.
Demon Wall : forward body slam
party.
aerith : limit break!!
aerith: good news everyone! Recovery!!! AND FULL HP/MP!!

in my mind, that's VERY good news.

churches. every religion has some from of a church, but may not be called a church. if you'll recall, Wutai has a pagoda in the middle of it, so the game itself would not be Christian based. As for Aerith herself, maybe.

Let's look at Crisis Core again. Minerva is the Goddess that Genesis keeps referring too, and yet he has a name like Genesis, which means birth, but is also the title of a book in the bible. the first book. the book of birth.

and yet, there's also magic involved with all of this.
Christianity sends mages to hell.

Although, I guess Cetra could be reference to the Jews looking for freedom from Egypt? "Let my people go!" -Moses
but then again... the Cetra never had to be freed... until Jenova came along, but then they just died. hmmmm... im stumped...

My personal vote? It's just to make the game more realistic.

 

[Rydrum2112]

Terra

You say

No, we were talking about the Catholic/Roman Angels who wore Togas, symbolizing that it is in fact, a Angel coming to Aerith's aid.

So you admit there are no halo's now (clearly not seen in the link I posted).
And now you are claiming she is specifically catholic? And how do you know they aren't Earth's Angels? Since that is who she is calling on for help.

Christians do not have a single way to pray, we don't even have to put our hands together. What I had meant by "Christian way" was that Christians can pray anyway, anytime and anywhere, unless (unless???) every other religion in the world. THAT'S what I meant by Christian way

If you say christians can pray at any time any way, then there is no "christian way." So why would you say she is praying in a christian way?

No, I can say that. Are you a Christian? No you aren't.

Actually, raised catholic.

You ask what proof, yet you just ignore my earlier post,

What about all the things associated with her that are not christian-
Like 2 limit breaks dealing with the the earth- Planet Protector, Breath of Earth. When she dies she joins the lifestream nothing to do with going up to heaven.

Not 1 thing she wears is associated with christianity, why wouldn't she have a cross on over the pendant the she does wear? Not one thing (even a cross) in her home nor her bedroom have anything to do with christianity. Not one weapon she has is associated with christianity.

She never mentions jesus, christianity or god.

 

[Terra Branford]

Probably, if the developers say so. I haven't heard about this but I'll trust you on it. But is Midgar actually New York? Is the Gold Saucer actually Las Vegas? Basing on your opinion about the religion in VII actually being Christianity you probably think so, given that your way of thinking is 'based on this = IT IS THIS!!!'.

Its true. I wouldn't make anything up like that. Unless the interviews lied to me >.>

Yes, but you brought up points on basing it here and there, on what and which. So I said they have based most of all FF7 on America and the real life. So if they can base it on things that aren't existent in their world, Christianity can be a possibility.

See this is the problem we're having here. We can start a new argument about the residents nearby Midgar probably being fans of the Yankees or the Mets because they are from NY. I can use your exact argument to 'prove' this point. A 'nail-bat' exists, so surely Baseball exists too.

If that's what you want to discuss, go ahead. I'm just wanting to express and share the evidence I have collected and I have found and seen, about the possibility of Aerith being a Christian.

Resorting to insults now?

I actually didn't mean to insult you.....I'm sorry that I had. I didn't mean to, I tend to post a bit different and it all comes out wrong. Which is why I take so long to reply back, I don't want to come off a certain way because I have a difficulty writing what's in my head.

Again, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. I just come off that way. I should have remembered how I post from NF...

Annoyingly missed out on the quotation marks, my apologies. Based on what I said in that previous post, I hope you'd understand that this isn't some sort of lame attempt to get back on track.

I wasn't referring to the Aerith part, but of the evidence part that I bolded. Not the Quoted part.

So you admit there are no halo's now (clearly not seen in the link I posted).
And now you are claiming she is specifically catholic? And how do you know they aren't Earth's Angels? Since that is who she is calling on for help.

Wait, when did you post a image....? I coulda sworn there were halos. Oh well, sorry about that, but they are still Angels. By Roman/Catholic, I mean the clothes of which they wear and I know you know what I meant.

How do I know? Because Angels are only associated with Christianity and Abrahamic religion. There is no such thing as "Earth's Angels". Angels are strictly religion base for Abrahamic religions.

Just like Satan is a Abrahamic religion term and thing.

If you say christians can pray at any time any way, then there is no "christian way." So why would you say she is praying in a christian way?

....The Christian way is the FREEDOM to pray anyway you want. In my previous posts I talked about how Christianity is the only religion besides Catholicism, that you can pray freely in any style, any time, anywhere. Again, THAT'S what I meant by Christian way because no other religion allows it. So if you see someone praying in the streets, you can rule out every other religion but you know for certain, that person might be a Christian since its the only known religion that doesn't require a law or certain way, to pray.

I really don't want to explain that again, its messes up where I stand and is confusing me on the subjects of which I already breached and responded to.

Actually, raised catholic.

You ask what proof, yet you just ignore my earlier post,

I said Christian, not Catholic. But if you are a Catholic, shouldn't you have know that Christians and Catholics can pray any way they want and what I had meant by "Christian way"? :/

So if you aren't a Christian, don't try and preach like you know what we do and what we can't do.

I didn't ignore what I 1: didn't see and 2: didn't know was directed at me. I asked at the end of my post if I had missed anyone, sheesh.

(Did I reply to all those who got back to me? Sorry for any grammar errors! >.>)

I do get tired and I don't see everything. I try to get back to everyone, but the thread was flooded with replies and I could barely find my own posts.

What about all the things associated with her that are not christian-
Like 2 limit breaks dealing with the the earth- Planet Protector, Breath of Earth. When she dies she joins the lifestream nothing to do with going up to heaven.

Not 1 thing she wears is associated with christianity, why wouldn't she have a cross on over the pendant the she does wear? Not one thing (even a cross) in her home nor her bedroom have anything to do with christianity. Not one weapon she has is associated with christianity.

She never mentions jesus, christianity or god.

Just because I think she's a Christian doesn't mean she has to have EVERYTHING about Christianity. What do you think Christians think? That everything must be Christian if one part is, or nothing is we obsess about it?

As I mentioned eight million times and will repeat for the eight millionth, time. SE had to draw a line someplace so anti-religious people would still buy the game. Well, SE had to draw a line someplace if its religious I mean lol

I already talked about the not mentioning Jesus or Christianity think a million times. Please re-read my posts. Do you think I have to mention Jesus once everyday or something to be a Christian? No, I don't have to and its absurd for anyone to think that way. We don't sit in our houses muttering his name in a corner to be a Christian.

 

[CassinoChips]

So if you aren't a Christian, don't try and preach like you know what we do and what we can't do.

He said he grew up Catholic. And you don't have to be Christian to understand what Christians do. It's not all that hard to comprehend, really.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

Triple T give it up son you cant argue with this chick.

Complete and utter hinderance by the religion fails to break th walls of ignorance.

Yeah.

Failing arguments and repeated truths is what this thread is turning into, and the subject matter is being lost in all the point scoring, some people think the symbolic nature of FFVII represent a faith akin christianity and its there choice to perceive it that way, while others dont see it like that and just recognize it as being parallel to Purity and angelic notions outside of christianity.

Why th big broooohahaha ha?

Oh yeah BTW she's not a christain.

 

[Terra Branford]

He said he grew up Catholic. And you don't have to be Christian to understand what Christians do. It's not all that hard to comprehend, really.

Catholic is not Christian.

So you can assume what Christians do? Wow, just wow, that is just...wow.

Sorry to inform you you are wrong. Obviously you do have to be a Christian to understand what Christians do, since you think you know more than a Christian and not only that, you feel like you can put all Christians into a group and assume every Christian must pray with their hands clapped together and that they ALL do it.

I'll say it again: wow, just wow.

Oh yeah BTW she's not a christain.

So you think. ^,^

She's a Christian.

 

[CassinoChips]

Catholic is not Christian.

LOL.

So you can assume what Christians do? Wow, just wow, that is just...wow.

Assume? No, I know what Christians do. Even if you don't consider Catholics to be Christian (which is..... mindblowing, quite frankly), I've attended services at several other denominations. And even if I hadn't, it's not hard to open a book and read up on it. It's not a magic code or anything.

Sorry to inform you you are wrong. Obviously you do have to be a Christian to understand what Christians do, since you think you know more than a Christian and not only that, you feel like you can put all Christians into a group and assume every Christian must pray with their hands clapped together and that they ALL do it.

I'll say it again: wow, just wow.

I never actually made that argument. You can pray however you want. Even if it's just having a mental conversation with your chosen deity, without making any physical movement whatsoever.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

So I know! and you know what no god told me to think that either
free thought is such a wonderful thing.

Spout your nonsense at some one else please Terra or go away.
Im willing to accept you think that way just dont shove it in my face lady
I know very little about your religion.......but I know plenty about your God and his
origins..........ever heard of Eru Illuvatar?

You go be all you can be lady.

 

[Rydia]

Why do you think Catholics are not christians? Isn't a christian a follower of christ? And don't Catholics follow christ?

 

[CassinoChips]

Why do you think Catholics are not christians? Isn't a christian a follower of christ? And don't Catholics follow christ?

No, it's never that simple.

It's the concepts of salvation through works, not grace alone; infant baptism; iconoclasm; the status of Mary; priests as intermediaries; transubstantiation; papal infallibility; among many, many other minor quibbles.

But then, I'm clearly not Christian, so I don't actually know these things.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

Sound like techno speak from Startrek:

"Captain we need to set transubstantiation to deflect the iconoclasm"

"Set a course for the papal infallibility cluster"

No offense big fella its just amusing when you read it lol

 

[Terra Branford]

LOL.

Do you know what differences we have? Why the heck do you think we have DIFFERENT names and different practices.

Assume? No, I know what Christians do. Even if you don't consider Catholics to be Christian (which is..... mindblowing, quite frankly), I've attended services at several other denominations. And even if I hadn't, it's not hard to open a book and read up on it. It's not a magic code or anything.

So you like to generalize Christians? Do you even know what we were talking about before you started to reply to it? We were talking about the Christian way of praying, which is a freedom to say. We can pray anywhere, anyway and when we want. That's what we're talking about.

Catholics and Christians are different, not a lot different, but we are different, which is the freakin' reason why have a different name, different prayer and all that. Hell, that's why the Protestants left England for America so they could practice their believe in God differently than Catholicism.

I never actually made that argument. You can pray however you want. Even if it's just having a mental conversation with your chosen deity, without making any physical movement whatsoever.

Thank you for posting to something you didn't even know what we were talking about.

If you had tried to pay attention to my posts, I was talking about our prayer ways and you came in generalizing and not even knowing what we were fulling talking about. Let me recap for you. Rydrum tried to me ME that we have to pray (unless he got lost on the subject and forgot what we were talking about >.>) in a certain way, which is what I was arguing about.

So I know! and you know what no god told me to think that either
free thought is such a wonderful thing.

Spout your nonsense at some one else please Terra or go away.
Im willing to accept you think that way just dont shove it in my face lady
I know very little about your religion.......but I know plenty about your God and his
origins..........ever heard of Eru Illuvatar?

You go be all you can be lady.

I could care less what you want to think. I'm not saying to stop thinking it. Maybe if you stopped assuming things and actually READ the posts, you'd get what I'm saying.

Okay, so I said she was a Christian and its shoving it in your face, but this isn't? That's just stupid.

Why th big broooohahaha ha?

Oh yeah BTW she's not a christain.

And me:

So you think. ^,^

She's a Christian.

Pay attention to your posts before you try to play victim
Nice that you like to steal Sky's slogan.

@Rydia:
Yea, we do. But there are differences between Catholics and Christians. Which is why we are separate and are called "Christians" and not "Catholics". Otherwise, we wouldn't bother to call ourselves Christians. We have different practices. ^,^

It's the concepts of salvation through works, not grace alone; infant baptism; iconoclasm; the status of Mary; priests as intermediaries; transubstantiation; papal infallibility; among many, many other minor quibbles.

You know, you hide your clear hate very badly.

EDIT:

Why are the insults and mockery toward me, my faith and my intelligence going under the radar?

 

[GalaxyFlare]

Okay, so I said she was a Christian and its shoving it in your face, but this isn't? That's just stupid.
Quote:
Why th big broooohahaha ha?

Oh yeah BTW she's not a christain.

No thats not shoving it your face I was merely providing you with another chance to shine sunshine.

Im trying to be amicable here.........you have know idea how it is lol

 

[Terra Branford]

No thats not shoving it your face I was merely providing you with another chance to shine sunshine.

Im trying to be amicable here.........you have know idea how it is lol

But when I said she was a Christian, I was just told I was throwing it in your face. Buts if perfectly fine and dandy for you to say the opposite to throw it in the faces of the people who think she is Christian?

Double Standard much?

 

[GalaxyFlare]

Its hardly the same Terra: the 1 thing I said in contrast to your opinion was 1line and you seem to have made a mountain out of a mole hill, All I said was she is not a christian its my Opinion............you the one causing the furor with your inability to accept other POV.

I think she is not a christain you think she is.........who cares ?

Apparently you do............nobody cares that you dont care what I think.....I certainly dont.

BTW whats a MUON?

 

[Daenerys]

I think that while the game shows some traditional symbols of Christianity, it's really clutching at straws to call Aerith, or anyone else in the game, a Christian.

Firstly, the Church. Yes, it's in the design of a Christian church, however, in game it's derelict and half-destroyed, showing how it's not used as a place of worship. I think they chose the design of a Church as it would be the most recognizable to Western audiences as a "spiritual" place.

Flower Girl: That's all right. The flowers here are quite resilient because this is a sacred place. They say you can't grow grass and flowers in Midgar. But for some reason, the flowers have no trouble blooming here. I love it here.

Is Aerith calling the Church a sacred place because it's a place of worship? I don't believe so. As shown in Advent Children, the flowers are growing directly on top of a part of the lifestream (Unless I'm mistaken, which I could be, as I haven't seen AC for quite some time xD), and therefore, the Church would be a "Sacred" place to Aerith, as it's the one place in Midgar that she can hear the Planet.

Aerith: I, I only heard it at the Church in the Slums.

Therefore, the Church would be considered a sacred place because of it's connection to the planet. Not God. The Planet. So, I don't think that the Church being in a design of a traditional Christian church is significant in showing Aerith as a Christian. I think it was chosen to symbolize Aerith's spiritualism, and would be the most recognizable place to have spiritual activity take place in for a Western audience, which they were aiming for with FFVII.

Also, they say in the game specifically that Aerith was praying to the Planet. Again, not to God, but to the Planet -

Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the planet. What
is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear. That is all. Ho Ho
Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?

Cloud: Search for Holy... How do we do it?

Bugenhagen: Speak to the planet.

And, if it's argued that the Lifestream is being used as a metaphor for God, since Aerith communicates with it in the way one would communicate with God - through Prayer - I don't believe this is the case, as Bugenhagen explains exactly what the Lifestream is -

Bugenhagen: The spirits that return to the Planet, merge with one another and roam the Planet. They roam, converge, and divide, becoming a swell, called the 'Lifestream'. Lifestream... In other words, a path of energy of the souls roaming the Planet. 'Spirit Energy' is a word that you should never forget.

And, the Lifestream is seen as the highest power in the game, in the end being the thing that destroys Meteor. In my opinion, Aerith is a metaphor for Jesus, in a way, since she's the only one who can direct the Lifestream, being able to destroy Meteor at the end of the game, and cure Geostigma at the end of AC. Despite the obvious handicap of being, well, dead.

While the game invokes Religious Symbolism with Great Gospel, that's really all it is, symbolism. Aerith communicates with the Planet by prayer, and again, I think it's just symbolic. The Angels are there to show that she's using some form of Divine Power, as for a Western Audience, Angels would be associated with such a power. I wouldn't say that these Angels are sent "by God" either, they could just be summoned spirits, much like Shiva and Ifrit are - both of whom are minor gods in themselves in other religions, if I recall correctly.

So, therefore, I think while the game uses a lot of traditional Christian images with Aerith - the church, praying, the angels. I think that they are all forms of symbolism to show that Aerith is on a higher spiritual plane to her team-mates. Also, it's stated explicitly in the game that Aerith is praying to the Planet, and not the Christian God. If Aerith said she was praying to God, then it would be easy to call Aerith a Christian. But, as Rydia so accurately stated a few pages ago, Aerith doesn't pray to God, or Jesus. Religion isn't even mentioned in the game. I think it's clutching at straws to try and link a few uses of religious symbolism to a video game character in a fantasy world, you cannot claim that because Christianity exists in our world, it has to exist in this fictional world. I think Aerith is a very spiritual character, due to her Cetra status, but I don't believe she's a Christian, as I don't think the concept of Christianity exists in the FFVII universe, where the Lifestream, and not God, is seen as the giver of life and an all-powerful entity.

Edit - Cool it guys, if the insults and sarcastic digs continue, and this topic can't be discussed in a civil way, I will lock the topic.

 

[Terra Branford]

Its hardly the same Terra: the 1 thing I said in contrast to your opinion was 1line and you seem to have made a mountain out of a mole hill, All I said was she is not a christian its my Opinion............you the one causing the furor with your inability to accept other POV.

I think she is not a christain you think she is.........who cares ?

Apparently you do............nobody cares that you dont care what I think.....I certainly dont.

BTW whats a MUON?

What? And all I was saying is that she's a Christian, in the exact context you have.

My inability to accept other POV? I've been debating it, so far my POV was slandered and mocked. I just wanted a nice debate, but it went to slandering a religion or a Christian, like these threads always do.

Of course I care. that's why I'm debating.

---------

I'm heading to bed now. Goodnight everyone!

 

[CassinoChips]

Do you know what differences we have? Why the heck do you think we have DIFFERENT names and different practices.

Evangelical, Pentecostal, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist..... all have different names. All have different practices. All are Christian. The common denominator? They believe in Jesus Harold Christ. Amazingly, Catholics do to. That makes them Christian.

So you like to generalize Christians?

What in Zeus' name did I generalize? I said I've attended services in several different denominations. Not once did I say all denominations do the exact same thing.

Do you even know what we were talking about before you started to reply to it? We were talking about the Christian way of praying, which is a freedom to say. We can pray anywhere, anyway and when we want. That's what we're talking about.

I actually agree with you here. If you paid attention.

Hell, that's why the Protestants left England for America so they could practice their believe in God differently than Catholicism.

All right, now you've stepped into my realm, missy. There are so many things wrong with that statement, I don't know where to begin.

1) The first European colonists to set foot on American soil were the Spanish at St. Augustine. Yes, that's right, SAINT Augustine. You know why they called it SAINT Augustine? Because they were Catholic.

2) The first English colonists to set foot on American soil were a part of what would become the Lost Colony founded by Sir Walter Raleigh. That had nothing to do with religion. It was simply the race for imperialism.

3) The Puritans who came over did leave/were kicked out of England because of their religious beliefs. But England was not Catholic at that time. They were Anglican. Also known as the Church of England. Which was established by Henry VIII in 1534, when he threw a hissy fit because Pope Clement VII wouldn't annul his marriage.

4) The first non-New England colony was established in Maryland by a Catholic charter.

If you had tried to pay attention to my posts, I was talking about our prayer ways and you came in generalizing and not even knowing what we were fulling talking about. Let me recap for you. Rydrum tried to me ME that we have to pray (unless he got lost on the subject and forgot what we were talking about >.>) in a certain way, which is what I was arguing about.

Amazing.

Rydrum was actually making the point that you were trying to say that because Aeris prays in a certain fashion, she must be Christian, which means that only Christians have the claim to praying in the particular way that Aeris did. He was saying that anyone from any religion can pray that way. So it's not evidence of her being Christian. You're coming at it from the wrong angle.

You know, you hide your clear hate very badly.

.......................... All of those things are among the reasons why some Protestant denominations consider Catholics not Christian. That's not hate, that's just fact. How you can find 'hate' in objective truth is beyond me. So please explain to me how that works.