Legislation =/= legislators. I never denied that people made arguments both for and against abortion. I only said that there was/is no argument within the legislation, ie the law. The law is abundantly clear: abortion is legal.
Abortion - your views.
- Thread starter Davey Gaga
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...and we're back at this again:
Is it better if I just say that just fact that the bill had been introduced is in direct conflict of the Roe V Wade ruling? That there are "disagreements" in the house of legislation simply because of that bill?---Me
Do you still remember that? Keyword btw is not "legislation" it's "house of legislation", meaning house of law.
Is it better if I just say that just fact that the bill had been introduced is in direct conflict of the Roe V Wade ruling? That there are "disagreements" in the house of legislation simply because of that bill?---Me
Do you still remember that? Keyword btw is not "legislation" it's "house of legislation", meaning house of law.
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"Because of that bill?"
No one's arguing because of that bill. That's what I was answering.
I've spoken my piece, and counted to three.
Triceratops!
rawr
Depends on the situation, I mean i dont think abortion is right at all, but if the baby was a result of rape i think it is fine, or if the mother is young
idiotic idioms
Self-Proclaimed Eccentric
I am going to speak on this subject once and only once. Do not try to snare me in a debate or argument over it, because my mind is set and I won't even entertain opposing views. This is one of the few subjects that I refuse to be open-minded about.
Abortion is murder, plain and simple. There is a growing thing within the womans womb. Growing usually means it's alive, though people have brilliantly blurred the line for when a child is considered alive. Even if you can say that it is not a living thing at the time, it has the chance at life, if uninterrupted. And no matter what, whether the mother of that child was raped, or if even if she had a terminable disease, the fetus deserves that chance to live and to experience life.
Any reason you can think of to have an abortion is a selfish reason. With the possible exception of if you have a terminable disease that can be passed on. But even then, I believe there should still be given the chance to live and experience.
Why? I have a book of poetry that was written by a kid who didn't live past the age of 13 or 14. He knew all his life that he didn't have much time on this planet. The insights and ideas and thoughts that that kid had were very different than those of other people. The kid had a very different outlook on life: he didn't want to give up, he wanted to experience as much of it as he could before he had to go. His views on things were unique and he taught a lot of good things with his poetry.
So, which is more inhumane? killing a fetus before it even has the chance to live, or watching a child die after 10-15 years due to a terminable illness? The result is the same, granted. The child still dies. But the difference is the key. A person can still respect and appreciate being on this planet for that short amount of time. Who are we to sit and deny that to anyone, no matter how short lived?
Most people, though, who have an abortion, do it for purely selfish reasons. I've heard many things from, 'I'm just not ready, yet', to 'it will completely mess up my life'. The thing is, we know what causes pregnancy. It's not like it's something that we're still busting our brains about. We know how to stop it from happening. If you are unwilling to face the consequences of your actions, then you should not be making them. These are purely selfish reasons.
Then, there's rape. When a woman is raped and knocked up, she is left with a legacy of the rapists actions. You do not mess with the sanctity of the human mind, because from the point of the rape onward, depending on the severity of it, the person receiving is going to be an emotional and mental mess. They can barely even stand the thought of having something so vile growing inside of them, and even more so when the child is born and looks like the rapist.
But, is it the childs fault? It wasn't the one that chose to rape the person, nor did it choose who it's parents were. The child itself is purely innocent, and yet, it still pays for it's parents crimes with the harshest of penalties: death.
Every situation that you can think of condoning abortion, I've thought of. We want to protect the sanctity of human life in the world. In the US, we actually claim to be pro life. Assisted suicide, or 'dying with dignity' is a touchy subject as well. We have the right, in this country, to determine the death of another being, when and if we please. Yet, we can't even sanction our own death when it's necessary to ease the passing. And I'm talking about when a person knows they are going to die and is in severe pain and is defecating themselves constantly. What right do we have to sacrifice another being when we don't even have the right to sacrifice ourselves.
We're pro life, but we allow the travesty of abortion to continue because we're afraid of what happens if the alternative is let to live. Before abortion was legal and they had places for people to go to have it done, many women did what was known as 'backyard abortions' with coat hangers, etc. Many people died this way, and it was decided that it would cut the death rate down by having abortion legal and safe.
Even if you don't believe in a higher power or anything like that, simple logic alone is enough to deduce that where there is a chance at life, there is life, and that the destruction of that chance is then to be considered murder. No matter how you look at it, you are committing murder when you have an abortion. That's the bottom line, when you sift through all the BS piled on top of the subject.
Murder.
(I have given a lot of thought to this subject and actually used to be in favor of it for cases of rape and terminable diseases where the child would die anyway. But it all comes down to what I said above. A child can live only 10-15 years and be happy that they had the chance to live even that long, and in the case of rape, it isn't the child's fault. The child should not take punishment for the sins of it's parents. I have to believe in the sanctity of human life, and death. Even if a child is marked to be raised in a broken home, and all they ever know is depression and thoughts of suicide, they still have the chance and choice to move past it and overcome. So, who are we to say when a child should or should not be allowed to live? That's the question that stemmed my current belief on the matter.)
Abortion is murder, plain and simple. There is a growing thing within the womans womb. Growing usually means it's alive, though people have brilliantly blurred the line for when a child is considered alive. Even if you can say that it is not a living thing at the time, it has the chance at life, if uninterrupted. And no matter what, whether the mother of that child was raped, or if even if she had a terminable disease, the fetus deserves that chance to live and to experience life.
Any reason you can think of to have an abortion is a selfish reason. With the possible exception of if you have a terminable disease that can be passed on. But even then, I believe there should still be given the chance to live and experience.
Why? I have a book of poetry that was written by a kid who didn't live past the age of 13 or 14. He knew all his life that he didn't have much time on this planet. The insights and ideas and thoughts that that kid had were very different than those of other people. The kid had a very different outlook on life: he didn't want to give up, he wanted to experience as much of it as he could before he had to go. His views on things were unique and he taught a lot of good things with his poetry.
So, which is more inhumane? killing a fetus before it even has the chance to live, or watching a child die after 10-15 years due to a terminable illness? The result is the same, granted. The child still dies. But the difference is the key. A person can still respect and appreciate being on this planet for that short amount of time. Who are we to sit and deny that to anyone, no matter how short lived?
Most people, though, who have an abortion, do it for purely selfish reasons. I've heard many things from, 'I'm just not ready, yet', to 'it will completely mess up my life'. The thing is, we know what causes pregnancy. It's not like it's something that we're still busting our brains about. We know how to stop it from happening. If you are unwilling to face the consequences of your actions, then you should not be making them. These are purely selfish reasons.
Then, there's rape. When a woman is raped and knocked up, she is left with a legacy of the rapists actions. You do not mess with the sanctity of the human mind, because from the point of the rape onward, depending on the severity of it, the person receiving is going to be an emotional and mental mess. They can barely even stand the thought of having something so vile growing inside of them, and even more so when the child is born and looks like the rapist.
But, is it the childs fault? It wasn't the one that chose to rape the person, nor did it choose who it's parents were. The child itself is purely innocent, and yet, it still pays for it's parents crimes with the harshest of penalties: death.
Every situation that you can think of condoning abortion, I've thought of. We want to protect the sanctity of human life in the world. In the US, we actually claim to be pro life. Assisted suicide, or 'dying with dignity' is a touchy subject as well. We have the right, in this country, to determine the death of another being, when and if we please. Yet, we can't even sanction our own death when it's necessary to ease the passing. And I'm talking about when a person knows they are going to die and is in severe pain and is defecating themselves constantly. What right do we have to sacrifice another being when we don't even have the right to sacrifice ourselves.
We're pro life, but we allow the travesty of abortion to continue because we're afraid of what happens if the alternative is let to live. Before abortion was legal and they had places for people to go to have it done, many women did what was known as 'backyard abortions' with coat hangers, etc. Many people died this way, and it was decided that it would cut the death rate down by having abortion legal and safe.
Even if you don't believe in a higher power or anything like that, simple logic alone is enough to deduce that where there is a chance at life, there is life, and that the destruction of that chance is then to be considered murder. No matter how you look at it, you are committing murder when you have an abortion. That's the bottom line, when you sift through all the BS piled on top of the subject.
Murder.
(I have given a lot of thought to this subject and actually used to be in favor of it for cases of rape and terminable diseases where the child would die anyway. But it all comes down to what I said above. A child can live only 10-15 years and be happy that they had the chance to live even that long, and in the case of rape, it isn't the child's fault. The child should not take punishment for the sins of it's parents. I have to believe in the sanctity of human life, and death. Even if a child is marked to be raised in a broken home, and all they ever know is depression and thoughts of suicide, they still have the chance and choice to move past it and overcome. So, who are we to say when a child should or should not be allowed to live? That's the question that stemmed my current belief on the matter.)
Answering Paragraph by Paragraph and removed everything redundant or irrelevant.
I concur "it" is alive. But it isn't wrong to kill what isn't human. Since "it" lacks the most important features of a human being till around 8 months.
Simple all life decides whether other life should exist. Like it or not we are part of the food chain. We are animals. Yes we are different animals we go by the name of "Human" but we are still part of nature and if killing of some flesh is better for the greater good then we must do as the ants do and sacrifice something. It would be more inhumane to "it" by keeping something unwanted.
If one is not ready one mustn't act till they are. Thus it must go. If threat destroys the greater good of the society or even a neighborhood or single family one must protect themselves. Thus it must go. Men, man... whatever title you choose will always act as they see fit in the moment. Not many choose what they believe is not the correct path for themselves. But to act in lust is human and thus it will happen. So asking us to stop until we are ready is like asking for the earth to rain on the sky.
It is not "its" fault. But we do for the greater good sometimes. This greater good is what man must take into account even when they want the baby. It isn't being punished simply playing its part that is all. Not all things are set in stone and if ones part is to end it must be so.
We have the right to remove ourselves yet it is suppressed by this country. A country is made of its people. Thus a country is not pro-life if ALL it people are not pro-life. It can be partially supportive but never full. The thing inside oneself must be in the best interest of all.
Tis only a travesty if one does not agree with it. The word travesty is relative. I can claim such a title on you for the travesty of attempting to remove our rights to build up the human race as we please. The choice for abortion was a smart one.
Tis only murder if "it" were human. If we were to go as you define it all minkind has committed murder 100 times over for every washing of hands, Cleansing or consumption of meat and for every meal consumed vegetarian or not.
We are human and thus the fate of our race is to us.
idiotic idioms
Self-Proclaimed Eccentric
Spike: That is a very good point to bring up and one that I don't have a clear answer for. I suppose that if a choice must be made, I would choose to discard that which has already lived a good portion of their life to make way for what has not. Out with the old and in with the new, if you will.
Mehaha: You like to go on about how we're a part of nature. Let me go on to explain nature to you. In nature, they do not kill off the sick or dying, but leave the sick or dying to die off on their own. Or, if food supplies are stretched, they will kill the sick and dying themselves for a food source.
Out of all the creatures in nature, Human beings are the only creatures that wage war for more than just survival. Out of all the creatures in nature, we are the only thing that kills for simply no reason at all. Most of nature kills to eat and survive.
Most abortions that occur do not have anyone's survival in question, except for the fetus'. Nobody eats the fetus. I hope.
You want to say that it isn't wrong to kill something that isn't human, yet we have laws that protect our pets. Our pets. If someone were to come to your house and kill your pet, they could be tried and convicted for it, yet it's very allowable to kill something off that we know in 8 months will have the characteristics of a human, that in one month after that will be a human? It doesn't take a very smart person to see the flaw in that.
Most of the time, there is no greater good in mind when an abortion is done. It isn't done to better our society any or make improvements. It's mostly done at the selfish whims of the parents.
I am not saying that people should stop until they're ready. I haven't. Only that they take the necessary precautions and to be prepared to deal with the situation of having a child should the situation arise. Since the beginning of time, man has rose up against strife and hard times and proven himself to be the top motherfucker on the food chain. We have adapted and changed to just about everything this world has thrown at us. I think the adaption from being childless to having a child would be a lot easier to make, in comparison. I've seen both sides of the story, of families not having enough to support children. I've seen it go to abortion, and I've seen them have their kids. They find a way to make it work. They find a way to survive, even with the extra burden of a child. No longer do we live in a world where our neighbors completely turn a blind eye. There are many avenues that one can go down to achieve survival, without having to live off the land. We have welfare, SSI, food banks and charities, homeless shelters and more. To say that it is impossible to raise a child and have a working family at the same time in todays society is just plain ludicrous. We are not living in the past where food supplies are extremely low. No, we have the technology now to ensure that nobody goes hungry. Why then do people still go hungry? The greed of humanity. Which, just so happens to be exactly one of the reasons why someone would have an abortion. Greed and selfishness. People think a child would destroy their lives when in reality it would enrich it beyond measure.
You don't believe the destruction of non-humans to be murder? It is, though. The only difference is that we distance ourselves from nature in a way that all other things do not. We are sentient, we have technology. We can not be on the same level as everything else in the world. We can not be equal to the animals. Well, guess what, we are. And to believe that we have a right to life is the same to believe that they do, too. The only thing that interferes with the right to life is the right to survive and the rule of survival of the fittest, but I've already gone over that.
I'm not saying everyone has to believe what I believe, but they should. You want to sit there and just think about the human race when you say it is up to us to decide the fate of humanity. We are all citizens of Earth, and I believe that it is up to us humans, as the holders of technology and intelligence, to protect the sanctity of life for every being on this planet, except under the direst of circumstances. I don't hold my breath for this to come about. I don't expect everyone to hear my words and immediately change their perspective. Humanity is full of soulless people, sorely lacking in morals and values.
You would have us all living like the Spartans did, destroying all but the healthiest and strongest of babies and creating of ourselves a true monument of Human history. Your argument just screams out that the end should justify the means. But it doesn't. It never will.
Fact: most people who have an abortion, end up regretting it about ten years down the road.
Fact: no matter how much you argue and blur the lines on the subject, a fetus WILL be human if it carries to term, and WILL be a child. To say that it is ok to dispose of it in the time that it has no human characteristics is a moral loophole and a very shitty one at that. It's how people who have abortions or perform them are able to sleep in peace at night, and even then, most of the come to regret their actions.
Fact: It could have been any one of us that had been aborted. Now, I don't how much you enjoy life, but I enjoy the hell out of it. I'd like to see everyone get the same chance I got to enjoy life, especially in todays society where there is enough for everyone, if they're willing to work for it, and even if they're not.
oh and, final thought:
FACT: EVEN IF IT DOES NOT HAVE HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS, IT IS STILL HUMAN BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT IT WILL HAVE HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS, THAT IT WILL BE BORN HUMAN, THAT IT WILL BE TINY AND THEN GROW TO ADULTHOOD AND GROW OLD, GIVEN THE CHANCE. WE KNOW THAT IT WILL BLEED THE SAME AS ANY OF US, THAT IT WILL CRY AND LAUGH AND FEAR AND REJOICE. JUST BECAUSE IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE US, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS NOT ONE OF US.
I apologize for the caps, but there are some things that simply are important enough to justify the use of them.
Mehaha: You like to go on about how we're a part of nature. Let me go on to explain nature to you. In nature, they do not kill off the sick or dying, but leave the sick or dying to die off on their own. Or, if food supplies are stretched, they will kill the sick and dying themselves for a food source.
Out of all the creatures in nature, Human beings are the only creatures that wage war for more than just survival. Out of all the creatures in nature, we are the only thing that kills for simply no reason at all. Most of nature kills to eat and survive.
Most abortions that occur do not have anyone's survival in question, except for the fetus'. Nobody eats the fetus. I hope.
You want to say that it isn't wrong to kill something that isn't human, yet we have laws that protect our pets. Our pets. If someone were to come to your house and kill your pet, they could be tried and convicted for it, yet it's very allowable to kill something off that we know in 8 months will have the characteristics of a human, that in one month after that will be a human? It doesn't take a very smart person to see the flaw in that.
Most of the time, there is no greater good in mind when an abortion is done. It isn't done to better our society any or make improvements. It's mostly done at the selfish whims of the parents.
I am not saying that people should stop until they're ready. I haven't. Only that they take the necessary precautions and to be prepared to deal with the situation of having a child should the situation arise. Since the beginning of time, man has rose up against strife and hard times and proven himself to be the top motherfucker on the food chain. We have adapted and changed to just about everything this world has thrown at us. I think the adaption from being childless to having a child would be a lot easier to make, in comparison. I've seen both sides of the story, of families not having enough to support children. I've seen it go to abortion, and I've seen them have their kids. They find a way to make it work. They find a way to survive, even with the extra burden of a child. No longer do we live in a world where our neighbors completely turn a blind eye. There are many avenues that one can go down to achieve survival, without having to live off the land. We have welfare, SSI, food banks and charities, homeless shelters and more. To say that it is impossible to raise a child and have a working family at the same time in todays society is just plain ludicrous. We are not living in the past where food supplies are extremely low. No, we have the technology now to ensure that nobody goes hungry. Why then do people still go hungry? The greed of humanity. Which, just so happens to be exactly one of the reasons why someone would have an abortion. Greed and selfishness. People think a child would destroy their lives when in reality it would enrich it beyond measure.
You don't believe the destruction of non-humans to be murder? It is, though. The only difference is that we distance ourselves from nature in a way that all other things do not. We are sentient, we have technology. We can not be on the same level as everything else in the world. We can not be equal to the animals. Well, guess what, we are. And to believe that we have a right to life is the same to believe that they do, too. The only thing that interferes with the right to life is the right to survive and the rule of survival of the fittest, but I've already gone over that.
I'm not saying everyone has to believe what I believe, but they should. You want to sit there and just think about the human race when you say it is up to us to decide the fate of humanity. We are all citizens of Earth, and I believe that it is up to us humans, as the holders of technology and intelligence, to protect the sanctity of life for every being on this planet, except under the direst of circumstances. I don't hold my breath for this to come about. I don't expect everyone to hear my words and immediately change their perspective. Humanity is full of soulless people, sorely lacking in morals and values.
You would have us all living like the Spartans did, destroying all but the healthiest and strongest of babies and creating of ourselves a true monument of Human history. Your argument just screams out that the end should justify the means. But it doesn't. It never will.
Fact: most people who have an abortion, end up regretting it about ten years down the road.
Fact: no matter how much you argue and blur the lines on the subject, a fetus WILL be human if it carries to term, and WILL be a child. To say that it is ok to dispose of it in the time that it has no human characteristics is a moral loophole and a very shitty one at that. It's how people who have abortions or perform them are able to sleep in peace at night, and even then, most of the come to regret their actions.
Fact: It could have been any one of us that had been aborted. Now, I don't how much you enjoy life, but I enjoy the hell out of it. I'd like to see everyone get the same chance I got to enjoy life, especially in todays society where there is enough for everyone, if they're willing to work for it, and even if they're not.
oh and, final thought:
FACT: EVEN IF IT DOES NOT HAVE HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS, IT IS STILL HUMAN BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT IT WILL HAVE HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS, THAT IT WILL BE BORN HUMAN, THAT IT WILL BE TINY AND THEN GROW TO ADULTHOOD AND GROW OLD, GIVEN THE CHANCE. WE KNOW THAT IT WILL BLEED THE SAME AS ANY OF US, THAT IT WILL CRY AND LAUGH AND FEAR AND REJOICE. JUST BECAUSE IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE US, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS NOT ONE OF US.
I apologize for the caps, but there are some things that simply are important enough to justify the use of them.
Really? That's morbid of you. Is that not murder, by your own definition?
Our pets are alive. Viable. Living outside of the womb. If someone came and performed an abortion on your dog, no one would prosecute that person.
Sure there is. The greater good of not bringing a child into a situation where they are unwanted. Whether you agree with the mother's choice or not does not mean it does not serve a greater good. And, frankly, there's only one "good" that needs to be taken under consideration: the woman's. She is not beholden to public opinion over her reproductive organs.
If she's prepared to have an abortion, what's the problem? Not that I'm advocating abortion as a means of birth control, but if they take all the "necessary precautions" in order to not get pregnant, then those precautions fail for whatever reason, are they then shackled to the unborn fetus for the next 9 months?
In your opinion. The average cost of raising a child through the age of 18 is $150,000/yr. The average cost of prenatal care is around $7500. I can tell you right now, were my girlfriend to get pregnant, that would financially cripple us. We are not prepared to have a child. Thus, we take proper precautions. Were she to get pregnant, it is in our (read: her) best interest to have the option of an abortion.
We're not. You've already described how we're not. We can reason. We have technology.
Just because someone's morals and values are different than yours does not mean they lack morals and values.
No, I don't think Mehaha would. Your implication here is that abortions would be wantonly performed at will every other minute of every other day. That's not the case.
Fact? Ninja, please. Do you have statistical data to back up that claim? Until you do, it's opinion.
Doesn't change the fact that it's NOT a viable human being while in the womb, until a certain point. And you're imposing your morality on others here.
Sure, and I could have hit by a bus while walking down the street yesterday. Doesn't mean I want to outlaw buses.
I enjoy the fact that my mother had the opportunity to weigh the pros and cons of bringing me into this world, and had the opportunity to make a choice whether she wanted to raise a child or not.
That's nice. It doesn't change the fact that it is not a viable human being until it can survive on its own outside the womb. What it will become is irrelevant to what it is.
idiotic idioms
Self-Proclaimed Eccentric
Hmmm, I didn't want my posting in this thread to become a habit, but here we are. Lol, You know, personally, I want to stay close-minded on this subject for a lot of reasons, but the biggest one is that I really can not condone abortion. if I were to find out that a woman carried my child and had it aborted, that would be that. It would be an unforgivable offense to me, whether I had the money to raise that child or not. I would sacrifice of myself to provide for that child. I would give up my hopes and dreams so that that child may have it's own one day. I simply can't imagine how anyone could think differently, and yet I know that they do.
No more morbid than destroying the fetus that hasn't had the chance to live yet. In fact, that's infinitely more morbid than what I just said above. Yes, it is murder, but if one or the other is going to die regardless, I would rather not even be faced with the decision, to be honest. I wouldn't be able to live with myself either way, afterwards. You simply can not make a choice like that and remain unchanged, unless you've already made a choice like it many times before. To choose between two beings, who will live and who will die, is very hard and I didn't make the decision lightly. I believe that the child should be given the chance to live no matter what, but in the end, it all comes down to the mother and what her decision is, seeing as how she is one of the two that will be affected by it. It isn't as if they would come up to me, the father, and say that it is my duty to choose between them, and if they did, you have my answer. I would choose the child.
the fetus is alive, viable, living within the womb. If someone were to come into your house while you were sitting in your room, on your computer, and killed you, it would be pretty much the same as the doctor that aborts the fetus. The fetus is just chillin, enjoying the free food and housing and all of a sudden it gets killed. It is very comparable to the person who is dependent on others.
Who's to say that the child is unwanted in the whole world? By the parents, yet. How fucking hard is it to bring it to term and then adopt it out? not very hard at all, is it. No. couple months maternity leave for the mother and then blessed freedom. And, if for some reason, in the time before the baby is born that the parents decide to change their mind and keep it, they can! wow! amazing! There are many people in this world who CANNOT have children, who would do anything to have a child of their own. and thanks for proving my point that it's a selfish act. very nice of you. 'the only good that needs to be taken under consideration is the womans.' not the fathers, not anybody else, just her.
They still know that the precautions can fail and if they really wanted to not have a baby, they would be abstinate. It's very easy to do. Just don't have sex. my god, that is simple, and yet, so impossible. So, you think that humans beings should just be able to do whatever we want to without ever facing the consequences of our actions? The act of having sex eventually leads to that of having a child. This has been set in stone since the dawn of time, for most people and most creatures on the planet. If you are not ready to face the consequences of your actions, you should not make those actions. Compare having sex to smoking cigarettes. If a person who is well-informed about the long term effects of smoking cigarettes and decides to do anyway, they are then subject to the consequences of their actions. In our law books we have one very important law that states that ignorance of the law is no excuse, so even if a person is ignorant of the effects of smoking cigarettes, they are still subject to the consequences of their actions. People just need to learn to think about the consequences before performing the action. It's not an impossibility. You're making excuses.
The simple fact is, that when a person gets pregnant, there is usually a baby shower thrown for them. You get most of the stuff you need to raise a baby from that alone. Kids clothes? way cheaper than those designer clothes that people HAVE to have. I think I saw a price tag on childrens pants at walmart for about 5 dollars. Designer pants for adults? upward of 50 bucks, if youre lucky and they have it on sale. You act as if it is impossible to care for a child, when the deciding factor really comes down to the fact that most of the people who have an abortion do so because they can't stand to give up any of their own personal comforts.
And each animal type is dissimilar to others, each having their own strengths and weaknesses. I pointed out our strengths, which are on par with the strengths of every other type of creature on this planet. Do you think that if all Spiders were the size of humans that we would last very long at all? We have technology, they have numbers, poison, lightning speed and reflexes and a never ending hunger. And that's just one example.
Fair enough.
No, my implication here is that people use abortion as a form of birth control each and every day, despite the warnings of what it does to their health. It's simple, convenient, and above all, they can lie to their significant other about it if they so choose. People already have abortions performed on a daily basis. maybe not the same people every day, but the numbers are rising.
I could, if I felt inclined to track it down. Fact is whatever the majority makes it, and the majority has made all of this very factual. I don't think I can find the original study done on this, but there is an actual number written down in the governments books of people who had an abortion and later came to regret it. It went on further to state that a majority of the women who had abortions were in their late teens, early twenties. Not a good age for decision-making, is it.
by whose standards is it not a viable human? Peoples? as I said, moral loophole, and a shitty one at that. And, that's an opinion, Holmes, not me pressing my morality on others. I am entitled to my opinion. Sorry for not labeling it.
Hmmm.... Maybe because Buses actually provide something beneficial to the community? How does aborting a baby contribute beneficially to the community?
By that logic, people are not viable adults until they can survive on their own outside of their parents home. Yet the law states that everyone above a certain age is an adult. and I could head off your reply to this which is probably going to be something along the lines of: 'and the law states that a fetus is not a human being until a certain stage.'
It's hypocrisy. A fetus is a human being, just not grown and developed enough to be identified as one, and thus the loophole I spoke of earlier is created. It's easier to kill something when it isn't labeled or identifiable as human. It's even easier to kill a fetus, I assume, because it looks like something alien, something ugly. Just because something is easier, doesn't make it right. In fact, I find that for most things in life, if something is easy, you're doing it wrong.
No more morbid than destroying the fetus that hasn't had the chance to live yet. In fact, that's infinitely more morbid than what I just said above. Yes, it is murder, but if one or the other is going to die regardless, I would rather not even be faced with the decision, to be honest. I wouldn't be able to live with myself either way, afterwards. You simply can not make a choice like that and remain unchanged, unless you've already made a choice like it many times before. To choose between two beings, who will live and who will die, is very hard and I didn't make the decision lightly. I believe that the child should be given the chance to live no matter what, but in the end, it all comes down to the mother and what her decision is, seeing as how she is one of the two that will be affected by it. It isn't as if they would come up to me, the father, and say that it is my duty to choose between them, and if they did, you have my answer. I would choose the child.
the fetus is alive, viable, living within the womb. If someone were to come into your house while you were sitting in your room, on your computer, and killed you, it would be pretty much the same as the doctor that aborts the fetus. The fetus is just chillin, enjoying the free food and housing and all of a sudden it gets killed. It is very comparable to the person who is dependent on others.
Who's to say that the child is unwanted in the whole world? By the parents, yet. How fucking hard is it to bring it to term and then adopt it out? not very hard at all, is it. No. couple months maternity leave for the mother and then blessed freedom. And, if for some reason, in the time before the baby is born that the parents decide to change their mind and keep it, they can! wow! amazing! There are many people in this world who CANNOT have children, who would do anything to have a child of their own. and thanks for proving my point that it's a selfish act. very nice of you. 'the only good that needs to be taken under consideration is the womans.' not the fathers, not anybody else, just her.
They still know that the precautions can fail and if they really wanted to not have a baby, they would be abstinate. It's very easy to do. Just don't have sex. my god, that is simple, and yet, so impossible. So, you think that humans beings should just be able to do whatever we want to without ever facing the consequences of our actions? The act of having sex eventually leads to that of having a child. This has been set in stone since the dawn of time, for most people and most creatures on the planet. If you are not ready to face the consequences of your actions, you should not make those actions. Compare having sex to smoking cigarettes. If a person who is well-informed about the long term effects of smoking cigarettes and decides to do anyway, they are then subject to the consequences of their actions. In our law books we have one very important law that states that ignorance of the law is no excuse, so even if a person is ignorant of the effects of smoking cigarettes, they are still subject to the consequences of their actions. People just need to learn to think about the consequences before performing the action. It's not an impossibility. You're making excuses.
The simple fact is, that when a person gets pregnant, there is usually a baby shower thrown for them. You get most of the stuff you need to raise a baby from that alone. Kids clothes? way cheaper than those designer clothes that people HAVE to have. I think I saw a price tag on childrens pants at walmart for about 5 dollars. Designer pants for adults? upward of 50 bucks, if youre lucky and they have it on sale. You act as if it is impossible to care for a child, when the deciding factor really comes down to the fact that most of the people who have an abortion do so because they can't stand to give up any of their own personal comforts.
And each animal type is dissimilar to others, each having their own strengths and weaknesses. I pointed out our strengths, which are on par with the strengths of every other type of creature on this planet. Do you think that if all Spiders were the size of humans that we would last very long at all? We have technology, they have numbers, poison, lightning speed and reflexes and a never ending hunger. And that's just one example.
Fair enough.
No, my implication here is that people use abortion as a form of birth control each and every day, despite the warnings of what it does to their health. It's simple, convenient, and above all, they can lie to their significant other about it if they so choose. People already have abortions performed on a daily basis. maybe not the same people every day, but the numbers are rising.
I could, if I felt inclined to track it down. Fact is whatever the majority makes it, and the majority has made all of this very factual. I don't think I can find the original study done on this, but there is an actual number written down in the governments books of people who had an abortion and later came to regret it. It went on further to state that a majority of the women who had abortions were in their late teens, early twenties. Not a good age for decision-making, is it.
by whose standards is it not a viable human? Peoples? as I said, moral loophole, and a shitty one at that. And, that's an opinion, Holmes, not me pressing my morality on others. I am entitled to my opinion. Sorry for not labeling it.
Hmmm.... Maybe because Buses actually provide something beneficial to the community? How does aborting a baby contribute beneficially to the community?
By that logic, people are not viable adults until they can survive on their own outside of their parents home. Yet the law states that everyone above a certain age is an adult. and I could head off your reply to this which is probably going to be something along the lines of: 'and the law states that a fetus is not a human being until a certain stage.'
It's hypocrisy. A fetus is a human being, just not grown and developed enough to be identified as one, and thus the loophole I spoke of earlier is created. It's easier to kill something when it isn't labeled or identifiable as human. It's even easier to kill a fetus, I assume, because it looks like something alien, something ugly. Just because something is easier, doesn't make it right. In fact, I find that for most things in life, if something is easy, you're doing it wrong.
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Or basically to voice the dogmatic views of the religious right. Which says you must do exactly as we say, abortion is murder etc etc.
More like it's a parasite inside of a human being, which is what it is. It's not alive.
Perhaps you'd like to be pregnant for 9 months, with all the complications, some of them life threatening, then there's also PND. But hey if we pray to Allah he will guide us right?
There's a part of your argument which resorts to sentiment, where there people who can't have children. Does that matter to them, yes? Does it have anything to do with abortion? No.
Abstinence is great, if you're part of some weird religious cult, it's not a viable option for normal people. Hey honey why do you slip on that new dress I bought you, then we go out for a romantic candlelit dinner, then a walk along the beach in the moonlight then back home for some good hard, sleep. See the problem there? Not even the great Satan Sarah Palin thinks abstinence is a good idea.
Then there's the pseudo legal argument which holds no water. All actions can have expected and unexpected consequences, it's a bit of a strect to jump from that to abortion is murder.
Not everyone lives the lifestyle of the Bourgeoisie.
Some people can't afford 5 course meals like you, infact they struggle to pay for their houses, even to keep warm. Perhaps if we killed the poor, then you'd be right, but until then pregnant families will dream of having baby showers, like the wealthy do. However it's just not a reality.
Obviously they should have waited until they were older to have an abortion amirite?
At least they had a choice too.
No, because one is a foetus, the other is a person, which can be cared for by other people it can be looked after, it's not attached to you etc etc.
A foetus isn't alive or a human, so you're not killing anything. It's also far easier to walk to places then it is to crawl, therefore walking is wrong?
No, what you said was completely inaccurate and all opinion, which is fair enough I suppose. However you'd force your opinion on other people.
idiotic idioms
Self-Proclaimed Eccentric
difference is, I dont care if you do what I say or not. What I say isn't an order, it's more of a belief that I hold within myself for me alone. But, since this is a debate, I decided to share my side of it.
do you know for sure it's not alive? yes, it can't function on it's own, but it's still drawing nutrients from the body. It actually happens where a fetus does die within the womb and stops taking nourishment and is eventually flushed out from the womans body by her natural processes. How can it die without being alive?
perhaps I would. I would actually enjoy the experience because it would give me a new outlook on the female experience and what it was like. If I had the chance to give birth to something, like a female does, I'd take it. Not only because Id' be learning something new, but because it would also be bringing a new life into the world. I've experienced painful things in my life that are worse than any physical pain. I could handle that.
That's because Sarah Palin is also consumed with a sex drive. Hmmm, matter of fact, we all are. And, it is a viable option, just not to people who can't learn how to control their impulses, or don't want to because they're having too much fun. Yeah, I've been abstinent the whole past year and then the 2 years before that. Oh em gee, they have this great thing called masturbation that doesnt result in having kids you dont want or arent ready for. Oh, and yeah, I've definitely had the opportunity to have sex during those times. Many times. And when I did choose to have sex with someone, I did it knowing the consequences and used protection knowing the protection could break. Having sex isn't exactly something you have no control over. You choose when and where you do it and who you do it with, most of the time.
hmmm... you're right. My one meal a day, no heat in the winter, no AC in the summer and general lack of just about anything that wasn't bought at a yard sale or discount store is really a sign of my rich upbringing. Baby Showers aren't just something that the wealthy do. I know a lot of people who are struggling to make ends meet, give up something they liked a lot to be able to do something like that for someone else.
You know, you want to attack me, that's fine, I really don't give a fuck. I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone. I am not expecting anyone to adopt my views on life over their own. All I'm doing is simply trying to get other people to see my side while pin-pointing the weak points in their arguments. If they do so to me, then all power to them, it just makes the debate more interesting. But you, you come in and condemn me for posting inaccurate information and all opinion when you did exactly the same thing. Very hypocritical and not much appreciated at all. I actually did stick to facts as much as I could throughout what I posted. I did slip in a few opinions of my own, but they weren't passed off as fact. I don't enter a debate on a subject I know nothing about. You'll never see me do that. I steer clear of shit I know nothing about. I happen to know a lot a decent amount about this subject. not a lot, but a decent amount.
Your post is nothing short of ridiculous and I gave you more respect than you deserve for it by actually answering what you said seriously. Don't expect me to do it again. You come at me like this in a debate again and you will find that I have no respect for you. probably something you'll laugh at, a loss of respect from someone you barely know. if so, please do it again. I'd love to make you look more foolish than you already do here.
now...
Spike said:
I will not ever say that a woman doesn't have the right to decide what to do with her own body. I believe everyone should have a choice. I don't have to necessarily believe it's the right choice, even in situations where it's the only choice, I can't believe it's right. Just like I can't believe it's right to kill any living creature. But, we kill to survive. It is a fact of life. If our continued survival means the destruction of an unborn fetus, then that's the cost. Whoever makes that decision will have to live with it for the rest of their lives.
Most of my arguments on this subject have been about people for whom survival wasn't even an issue. people whose reasons are purely selfish, and I've seen a lot of those people. I'd like to believe that a child deserves to live no matter what the situation, but that was misguided, and I can admit that. I didn't want to believe that I lived in a world where there would actually be a need for abortion. I should have stayed away from this thread, but I'm glad I didn't. It's been a learning experience.
I really have nothing further to say on the subject.
Jesus, if you're going to respond to me, please don't do it here as I'm sure that whatever you post is only going to disrupt this thread even more. Instead, send your scathing reply to my inbox. It's empty at the moment and kind of lonely.
Same posting technique as the last...
I see one prefers the suffering of the masses for that which cannot suffer. That seems to me to be some type of hidden sadistic train of thought. You talk of it suffering and that being the reason to keep but that one suffering doesn't exist. But the as spike said "Vessels" mother can suffer, the father can suffer, the daughter can suffer and all other friends and family can suffer. So you would rather make them all lament at the sight of the child at every birthday for stealing the life of someone they held dear?
Oh? Really? How about when a male lion conquer a pride. He kills all the children. He slaughters every last baby through the breaking of bones and even on rare occasions consuming them. This for no reason other than to make sure the children of the weaker father who is no longer around doesn't spread it flawed genes. This so that the new stronger male will sow his seed and make cubs that are better. An act done for the greater good.
Oh? Really? Chimpanzees fight for some of the reasons we do. When in search for new territory or even just practicing their skills they will raid other groups. They will fight and kill all that they see for the reason of practice. An act followed by cannibalism. And yes every human has had a reason to kill. Some good some bad but in the end a reason.
Actually you are wrong again.A being can affect the entire world for the better or worse depending on the situation. Though rare. A child will always affect ALL who come to contact with it.
Those pets are our property so stealing its life is similar to stealing one wallet. But its not human. So the flaw is non-existent.
The greater good can include needing to be prepared. A parent who is unprepared is not really a parent in my eyes. Rather the harvester of future murderers and thieves.
Man has tried to rise up but still sees many failures. Did the man who jumped off a bridge because he lost his job rise up? Or the lady who killed herself because her husband was cheating I bet she rose up rather well... After spending enough time in the dirt her coffin rose out clean as a whistle didn't it.
It isn't though. You say we distance ourselves from nature? Our concrete jungles are all part of it. All areas of nature follow their own law. We man dominate in stone fortresses. That is our area like scorpions in the dessert or snakes in the jungle. We are on the same page as all things in nature. We are nature the kid sitting watching spongebob is nature or the man doing his taxes as well. Yes we have great technology... But we aren't reserved as the only ones who do. Many creatures have technology just not cellphones. And to add on an Elephant will morn the death of its you... That is sentience. An animal has no right to live... Just the right to try. But if something come along to end that it is their right to do so.
No... People should believe what THEY believe. Their is no sanctity of life. Their is only life. None of it is sacred we are all beings but that is it. Sanctity of life is nothing but a fairytale told to children so they aren't afraid of the dark. A soulless being is one of clear judgement unbiased. Morals contradict themselves based on country thus aren't clear enough to be relied upon.
It does and it always will.
That is their burden but they did so for good reason. FACT
FACT a fetus in NOT a human being thus it equates to a germ. Their is no moral loophole because morals should be discarded if the situation like this one calls for it. That regret is part of being human something the germ lacks.
Oh FACT I know that sherlock. I enjoy life but even as a person who has religion I make clear decisions. Those things are better off being used as research material if not wanted. An no go to Africa and the like tell me if their is enough.
Idiocy at its best. If it not human it is? That means the chicken, beef, veggies and other stuffs are human. That would make you a cannibal. Thus your logic is to be rejected. And replaced with something that is LOGICAL. A fetus is yet born, yet to cry, laugh, fear, or rejoice. Looks have nothing to do with it because no human is the same. But he fetus does not FEEL, THINK or any of the like that truly what defines human.
This not one of them...
And thus make the wrong decision.
STDs are also alive and viable. So you cannot say the if you had AIDS and someone could cure it that you would because it is alive and viable. Or would you stoop down to your own definition of murder and make what you classify as a selfish decision. Would you be the proverbial beast of your own definition?
REALLY HARD SHERLOCK. That is one of the reasons abortions happen anyways. And they also have till the abortion happens to decide whether to keep it as well the can! Wow! Amazing! And if these people want their own baby there are hundred of thousands of them to adopt already in the US, Africa, Thailand, Hungary, Mexico and the rest of the world. So thanks for proving your being selfish. Very nice of you.
So your asking people to ignore being human? SEX IS PART OF IT GENIUS! We have helmets for the consequences of playing football the consequences of pregnancy could be faced with abortion and in fact if need be should. One of humans crowning achievements is the ability to fight mistake and with something that will remove the consequence. Men who get bit by snake helping villages in the tropics use anti-venom. That bite was the consequence so should he face it?
Well then so be it. Yeah a pair of pants is 5 dollars. But the bay formula my sister drinks is 15 dollars and she finishes it in 2 days. 15x15=A SHIT LOAD OF CASH!!! Most people where I live even if they live by themselves can't even afford gas. A baby would not be possible for them.
But like any other animal we can eliminate our own even ourselves for the greater good. Like I said earlier look at the ant.
We do as we see fit. And if abortion is part of that than so be it. Now a person should do research on abortion if possible before considering it I will say that.
Don't bring in numbers unless you want your point to be mute when asked for a source. And teens and well as twenties is the BEST time for decision making. All ages are good because we thus learn from those decisions.
By a logical standard.
Not what it brings that makes it beneficial but what it doesn't. If children with AIDS were not born then the infection would be slowed significantly.
A fetus is not human. It simply acts as somethjng similar to a bag and carries genes. But it is not human.
I believe it is alive in fact. Doesn't make it human. Maybe a parasite or germ perhaps but not human.
Thank you I have been trying to get that clear for a while.
From all things men learn and prosper so I am also happy for you.
idiotic idioms
Self-Proclaimed Eccentric
I never spoke of the fetus suffering. there is not enough conclusive evidence to prove that a fetus suffers anything, just as there is no conclusive evidence when a fetus is truly alive. And, either way it goes, the family and friends still suffer, whether for the child unborn or the woman gone. The suffering is there regardless of the outcome. Which would be harder to take? also unknown. I said the choice I would make. I never said that anyone else would make the same. Beauty of life is that we have that choice, I suppose. I wonder though, if it is better than having no choice in the situation.
First I've heard of this. again though, it comes down to the survival of the pride. To have a weak or sick lion is to have a weak spot when attacking and bringing down prey. Still different from what we humans face in our concrete jungle.
Again, this is done for survival purposes. If not for practice and territory, they would be wiped out, which is the fate for the chimps that lose. If one does not take out the other, they swiftly become over-populated. I can admit that in that instance we are like chimps and in that situation, Abortion might be considered a viable solution, but as I said before, we have the technology and supplies to cover it. We should have no reason to kill off anything in our society. All we really have to do is let the idiots kill themselves and the sick to finish off their lifepspan. We are in no way, shape, or form, struggling for our survival in this day and age. We already have it cemented as long as something doesnt come along that wipes us all out.
yes, but usually in a positive manner.
Ok, so we're back to slavery again. doesn't matter if they're human or not. Pets don't belong to us. They choose to stay with us and can choose to leave at any given time. We like to say we own them, but that's the same as saying you own a person. Maybe not in our law books, but to a lot of people.
A lot of people learn by doing. You can not prepare for a child adequately enough without the help of other people if you have never had a child before or taken care of one. Parents are unprepared all over the place. Kids my age are having kids and I know that I sure as hell don't know what I'm doing. You act as if anyone who is having a child for the first time, or even the second time in some cases, should automatically know everything that is needed to prepare for it beforehand. Maybe so, I won't disagree with you, that would be ideal. However, it is also unrealistic.
You're speaking of individual people. I was speaking of man as a race. Big difference.
I know that we are still very much a part of nature. I know that. But how many people do you think actually care to realize that? Many people can not think of themselves as being part of the same human race as people with different colored skin, let alone think they're a part of nature, an animal just like the rest. To them, to be thought of as an animal is an insult. It was those people I was speaking of, which surprisingly enough, comprise a large part of the United States. Probably not a majority, but a large part.
Well, that's the beauty of life: they will believe what they want to believe. And all the power to them. Everyone needs something to believe in to survive, even if that something is nothing. Morals are the same all over, it's only the people that are different, and just barely. We only think they're more different to us than they actually are because they look and talk differently and were raised to believe in a different God. Really, that's about all there is that's different.
If everyone in the world got together and decided to scrap all ideas of personal gain and begin to look out for each person as their fellow man, instead of letting the lines between races divide us, we would see that there is enough food and shelter in the world for all humans, and we would still have a lot left over.
The difference is that we eat veggies and meat to survive. We do not eat what laughs and cries and fears and rejoices. Some places in the world do, and they have weird diseases because of it. Eating raw monkey brains isn't good, yet they had to try. And the key is that it will. the animals and veggies youre speaking of? if they don't laugh or cry or fear or rejoice, they never will. How often do you see a chicken cry or a cow laugh? How often do you see a veggie fear being pulled out of the ground? They never will. The fetus? it will.
The difference is that the virus is actually out to kill me, with every intention of using my ruined carcass to feed it's legion.
And people adopt those almost on a daily basis as well. Amazing. Do we still live in a world where a child is completely raised in orphanages? no. we don't. Every kid finds a home and there are still people out there wanting to have one.
Not to ignore being human, no. I'm not saying that everyone should just be abstinent. All I meant was that it is the only sure way to avoid getting pregnant and if people really wanted to avoid having children, they would exercise that option and search out different methods of reaching the same conclusion. Far as I know, oral sex doesn't get you pregnant. If a woman is into it, anal sex doesn't get her pregnant. Dry humping, masturbation, etc. And no, if the man was prepared for it, he already took care of it. But to prepare for the arrival of a child with abortion is completely different. It's not a form of birth control but a last resort. A last resort that many people take advantage of and use freely.
You know what? My sister is a single mother of 4 kids. Ever since she was 16, she was living on her own and taking care of herself. She had her own car and everything. Paid the payments on her own, and still had enough money to spend on her babies. You know why? Because in todays world we have something called WIC, that helps mothers out by giving them baby formula, etc. I do believe it's even a part of DSHS, which allows you to also get food stamps. She gave of herself and her dreams to raise those kids and did so while working at McDonalds, a fast food restaurant that barely pays anything. Don't tell me it isn't possible.
Most of the time, though, it is not done for the greater good. yes, I will say that for a good amount of people, it is for the greater good, but all? no. There is a vast amount of people who do it without any thought at all toward any greater good and with every thought to their own greater good. Selfish act.
That is part of the problem, we do as we see fit. Problem is, not everyone can do as they see fit and be right. But they do have the right, as long as it doesn't conflict with any laws.
A person that age is usually not settled down enough to make that type of decision well. They usually have a violent mixture of hormones that conflicts with any rational thought. Usually. There are exceptions. I didn't say they didn't learn from their decisions, just that that age is not the best possible one to make those decisions at, still tempered by their wild youth.
If people did regular VD check ups, they could find out when they have a disease so they can stop having sex. Most STDS are spread by a person who has an std without knowing, or they do know and don't care, through the act of sex. Very rarely is AIDS passed on to someone else from a child that is born with it. It is not airborne, after all.
I keep saying I'm not going to respond here anymore and then someone comes along and responds to what I said, so uh... this time, I'm not even going to bother, lol.
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Hal said a lot of what I would have - which frightens me, tbph - so I'll just sprinkle in some additional thoughts.
Spoken like a man who's never been in the situation. No sane medical doctor would choose the life of the fetus over the life of the woman. It's ludicrous.
No, it wouldn't, because I've already been born. The fetus has not. A fetus can't sit in a room, on a computer.
The father isn't the one who has to carry it for nine months. The father isn't the one who has to shove a bowling ball through a garden hose. The father isn't the one who has to deal with morning sickness, hormone swings, swollen feet, swollen everything else, waddle like a duck for a month, have pap smears every other week, not be able to sleep on his left side, take time off from work, among other things. Should the father be involved in the discussion? Sure. Should the father have any ultimate say in the decision? I say no.
No, I'm thinking rationally. Human beings are not designed to be abstinent. Expecting them to be is like a dog that walks on 2 legs. It'll do it for a few feet, til it loses its balance and goes back to all fours. It can't deny nature.
Do you get food at a baby shower? Formula? Do you get money for doctor visits? Dentist visits? That is arguably the most naive thing I've ever read.
That's your assumption. How many women who've had an abortion have you talked to?
It does nothing to their health, as I've already shown in previous posts in this thread.
Bullshit. You just want to throw out numbers and have people take your word for it.
Fact is verifiable information. Your information is not verifiable. Your information is not fact.
The dictionary's?
b.(of a fetus) having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.
Why does a medical procedure have to benefit the community? Why should it have to benefit anyone other than the one undertaking the procedure? In a privatized medical society, like we currently live in, what any person has done to their body is no business but their own and their physicians. My going to the doctor for a kidney stone does not benefit you, the community, or anyone else. Because I do not have to answer to you. Neither should a woman who simply wants to have a medical procedure done.
We're not talking about adults. We're talking about feti. And you've already shown how your argument is wrong. But I'll add: The law states that adults are ... adults... at 18. That has nothing to do with nature. In nature, you're an adult once you've hit puberty. It's a social construct of sentimentality that has created both the "18 = adult" law and the "able to financially support oneself = adult" social more. Much like the only thing that is keeping abortion a debate is the social construct of the sanctity of life.
Spoken like a man who's never been in the situation. No sane medical doctor would choose the life of the fetus over the life of the woman. It's ludicrous.
No, it wouldn't, because I've already been born. The fetus has not. A fetus can't sit in a room, on a computer.
The father isn't the one who has to carry it for nine months. The father isn't the one who has to shove a bowling ball through a garden hose. The father isn't the one who has to deal with morning sickness, hormone swings, swollen feet, swollen everything else, waddle like a duck for a month, have pap smears every other week, not be able to sleep on his left side, take time off from work, among other things. Should the father be involved in the discussion? Sure. Should the father have any ultimate say in the decision? I say no.
No, I'm thinking rationally. Human beings are not designed to be abstinent. Expecting them to be is like a dog that walks on 2 legs. It'll do it for a few feet, til it loses its balance and goes back to all fours. It can't deny nature.
Do you get food at a baby shower? Formula? Do you get money for doctor visits? Dentist visits? That is arguably the most naive thing I've ever read.
That's your assumption. How many women who've had an abortion have you talked to?
It does nothing to their health, as I've already shown in previous posts in this thread.
Bullshit. You just want to throw out numbers and have people take your word for it.
Fact is verifiable information. Your information is not verifiable. Your information is not fact.
The dictionary's?
b.(of a fetus) having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus.
Why does a medical procedure have to benefit the community? Why should it have to benefit anyone other than the one undertaking the procedure? In a privatized medical society, like we currently live in, what any person has done to their body is no business but their own and their physicians. My going to the doctor for a kidney stone does not benefit you, the community, or anyone else. Because I do not have to answer to you. Neither should a woman who simply wants to have a medical procedure done.
We're not talking about adults. We're talking about feti. And you've already shown how your argument is wrong. But I'll add: The law states that adults are ... adults... at 18. That has nothing to do with nature. In nature, you're an adult once you've hit puberty. It's a social construct of sentimentality that has created both the "18 = adult" law and the "able to financially support oneself = adult" social more. Much like the only thing that is keeping abortion a debate is the social construct of the sanctity of life.
I was going to quote others' and debunk their thoughts etc., but the last time I posted here no-one posted directly opposing what I had said.
I'm 13. I don't know everything about rape, or broken condoms. But I do know about life and love, and a child's perspective of motherhood.
First off, let's consider the woman.
Most mothers who have their child in happy environments get that joyous feeling of being a mother. It's their little angel, a perfect bundle of joy. I know there's that post birth depression thing or something, but that's easily gotten over with support from others.
[EDIT: Okay, apparently it's not easily gotten over
Still, my point stands.]
Now, to all people who want mothers to carry on to the birth even in awful situations, who the fuck are you to take away such a feeling?
They most likely won't see their child as a little angel. They'll see the eyes of the rapist, the abusive father. They won't get to feel such an emotion. And it'll weigh them down even more because they know they're meant to love this child.
Right. There's one point. "Oh, but she'll grow to love it!"
Pff. Okay, she might. But how will she stop herself from remembering the father whenever she looks at it?
Also, like Kelly said, is she a mere vessel? What if she's not ready? Hm? How awfully selfish of her to wait until she's prepared! How selfish for her to not be willing to raise this child just yet, for wanting to give it a proper childhood!
Now for the child.
Yes, you'll never know what it was like. What if the child had grown up in the awful environment you saved it from, under the hands of abusive parents?
They could be a serial killer, more of a murderer than a mother who performs abortion could ever be.
I've already posted in this thread and don't feel like repeating myself >_>
But hey, I'm just 13.
I'm 13. I don't know everything about rape, or broken condoms. But I do know about life and love, and a child's perspective of motherhood.
First off, let's consider the woman.
Most mothers who have their child in happy environments get that joyous feeling of being a mother. It's their little angel, a perfect bundle of joy. I know there's that post birth depression thing or something, but that's easily gotten over with support from others.
[EDIT: Okay, apparently it's not easily gotten over
Still, my point stands.]Now, to all people who want mothers to carry on to the birth even in awful situations, who the fuck are you to take away such a feeling?
They most likely won't see their child as a little angel. They'll see the eyes of the rapist, the abusive father. They won't get to feel such an emotion. And it'll weigh them down even more because they know they're meant to love this child.
Right. There's one point. "Oh, but she'll grow to love it!"
Pff. Okay, she might. But how will she stop herself from remembering the father whenever she looks at it?
Also, like Kelly said, is she a mere vessel? What if she's not ready? Hm? How awfully selfish of her to wait until she's prepared! How selfish for her to not be willing to raise this child just yet, for wanting to give it a proper childhood!
Now for the child.
Yes, you'll never know what it was like. What if the child had grown up in the awful environment you saved it from, under the hands of abusive parents?
They could be a serial killer, more of a murderer than a mother who performs abortion could ever be.
I've already posted in this thread and don't feel like repeating myself >_>
But hey, I'm just 13.
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I'm not having a laugh <_< My mum's the one who told me about it, she said most of the time it's easy to get over. Guess I got that bit of info wrong then, sorry? >_> I'm on your side here xD
And no, I've never been clinically depressed. I've had my times, but otherwise I've been lucky enough to have lived a happy life.
And no, I've never been clinically depressed. I've had my times, but otherwise I've been lucky enough to have lived a happy life.
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There are varying levels of post-partum depression, just like there are varying degrees of most conditions. In some cases, it's just a sense of loss or detachment that does go away gradually over time as the mother bonds with their newborn. On the other hand, in extreme cases, it can significantly endanger the lives and well-being of the mother and the child, as it prevent the formation of that mother-child bond.
What your mom may have been thinking of is post-partum exhaustion, which manifests similarly, but isn't as much of a problem. It doesn't require much medical treatment, and tends to go away on its own within a week or two.
Midnight Memoire
Oh! Glory
I should start my noting that I am Atheist. My views are by no means dictated by any type of religious following. I will be honest though, I do have sort of strange views..
I, myself, have been pregnant. I had a miscarriage at 11 weeks. It was the most heartbreaking event I've ever experienced. My Husband and I had been trying for about a year and the excitement we experienced upon discovering our pregnancy was quickly ripped away. I enjoyed my pregnancy. I still cry for my lost child and am waiting patiently for my body to recover so that I can begin trying yet again. To me, abortion is just sad. I've seen what type of medical procedure is performed during an abortion. It really is frightening. If I did not want children of my own, I would honestly much rather go through 9 months of eating pickles and ice cream and then labor pains then go through an abortion.
I am Pro-Life, thus Anti-Abortion. I feel that if you decide to have sexual intercourse and discover pregnancy then you should continue with the natural process of life. Adoption is available for those who do not wish to raise a child. People seeking to adopt a child want a baby and cannot have one - I find it only fair for women who are capable of becoming pregnant and perhaps made a mistake, to give those who really do want the joy of raising a child that opportunity.
Now for why I'm a bit strange...
For those who have been raped, molested, or been forced into acts such as incest, I believe that it is that persons right to abort the child, ESPECIALLY in cases of incest. For instance, if a 12 year old girl has been raped by her father, I feel that she should be allowed to abort a fetus. That sort of incident is not only frightening due to the age but also due to the situation at hand. There are a few more circumstances such as several suicidal tendencies or uncontrollable depression but I dare not go deeper into that sort of discussion.
Like I previously stated, my opinions are not religious. Also, I formed these opinions prior to my lost pregnancy, though I do admit that they have gotten significantly stronger since. I'm not trying to start any sort of argument. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and may choose to live their life as they will. I am not going to mock those who have decided on an abortion as it was your choice, though it breaks my heart. I do hope that more women become open to the idea of adoption though as there are so many potential parents out there. Sure, some may not raise those children the best, but what about all of the other children who will be raised in very loving households? You cannot neglect the thousand of good parents out there for the dozens that have made mistakes.
I, myself, have been pregnant. I had a miscarriage at 11 weeks. It was the most heartbreaking event I've ever experienced. My Husband and I had been trying for about a year and the excitement we experienced upon discovering our pregnancy was quickly ripped away. I enjoyed my pregnancy. I still cry for my lost child and am waiting patiently for my body to recover so that I can begin trying yet again. To me, abortion is just sad. I've seen what type of medical procedure is performed during an abortion. It really is frightening. If I did not want children of my own, I would honestly much rather go through 9 months of eating pickles and ice cream and then labor pains then go through an abortion.
I am Pro-Life, thus Anti-Abortion. I feel that if you decide to have sexual intercourse and discover pregnancy then you should continue with the natural process of life. Adoption is available for those who do not wish to raise a child. People seeking to adopt a child want a baby and cannot have one - I find it only fair for women who are capable of becoming pregnant and perhaps made a mistake, to give those who really do want the joy of raising a child that opportunity.
Now for why I'm a bit strange...
For those who have been raped, molested, or been forced into acts such as incest, I believe that it is that persons right to abort the child, ESPECIALLY in cases of incest. For instance, if a 12 year old girl has been raped by her father, I feel that she should be allowed to abort a fetus. That sort of incident is not only frightening due to the age but also due to the situation at hand. There are a few more circumstances such as several suicidal tendencies or uncontrollable depression but I dare not go deeper into that sort of discussion.
Like I previously stated, my opinions are not religious. Also, I formed these opinions prior to my lost pregnancy, though I do admit that they have gotten significantly stronger since. I'm not trying to start any sort of argument. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and may choose to live their life as they will. I am not going to mock those who have decided on an abortion as it was your choice, though it breaks my heart. I do hope that more women become open to the idea of adoption though as there are so many potential parents out there. Sure, some may not raise those children the best, but what about all of the other children who will be raised in very loving households? You cannot neglect the thousand of good parents out there for the dozens that have made mistakes.
B
Bun
I find it odd that some people think pregnancy is all fun and games (ie. eating whatever you want and getting compliments and pampering from everyone) until the labor pains kick in. We seem to be forgetting just how horrible pregnancy can be during those 9 months.
- Loss of energy/feeling worn out
- Weight gain
- Nausea/vomiting
- Breasts are sore
- Feeling bloated (that's because you are, you fat cow)
- Excessive urge to urinate
- Backaches (Jesus Chris, I already deal with this shit and I'm not pregnant)
- Swollen ankles
- Other possible complications with the pregnancy...