Female genital mutilation

[Erythritol]

Okay, a warning: this subject can be a bit graphic, so if you are easily disturbed (I'm betting most of you are not), don't read.

How does everyone here feel about female genital mutilation (FGM)? I'm not talking about genital piercings, of course, but the practice that is carried out on young girls mainly in Africa. There are many forms of FGM, almost all involving the removal of the clitoris, and some involving the removal of the labia minora and the labia majora. Extreme forms of FGM involve the removal of all external genitalia. This procedure is not performed in a hospital, nor is it done with sterilized equipment. However, in many places, it is a common procedure-- it is both a cultural and religious tradition. My question is: is the World Health Organization right to try and stop this practice? Is it ethnocentric of them? I have actually heard arguments for and against this practice, and I'm interested in seeing what people think.

 

[Soul Saver]

I think it's absolutely disgusting. It somehow "purifies" and preserves women's honour? How does denying sexual pleasure and inflicting great pain achieve that?
It's not fair to women, and the practise should be abolished. Yet again, we're talking about something that is carried out where men believe that raping young women will cure AIDS.

 

[Casanova]

I think that if these women are willing for it to be done to them because they believe that it is a good thing and that it will benefit them, then they should be allowed to do it. However, if women are being forced into doing it then that's not right at all, in fact, that's sick, and it should be stopped as soon as possible.

Is this procedure never performed in a hospital? Do they never use sterilised equipment?

 

[Donald Trump]

I think that if these women are willing for it to be done to them because they believe that it is a good thing and that it will benefit them, then they should be allowed to do it.

That's the point though. It is their culture/religion to do so. Their religion and culture is based on what men wanted. Over time these things became part of their culture, so they're doing what is demanded of them by men, and not their free will, if you see what I mean.
But no, I don't think the WHO should get involved, AIDS in Africa is IMO much more important. I also don't think they can morally say your culture is wrong. I think that we should allow it but hope that it goes away. A containment-esque policy I suppose.

 

[Davey Gaga]

I'm normally very tolerant of what other people want to do with their lives but, to be honest, I have no time for such acts of inhumanity. It doesn't matter to me that their religion tells them to do so - that just indicates to me that the religion in question needs an overhaul. I tend to be quite against being dictated to by a religion and so when I hear of inhumane mutilation for the sake of purity, or whatever it is, then I'm all for invervention by the WHO. However, I can't imagine how invervention would be accomplished without being completely ignorant to other people's wishes. I do suppose that, so long as this is not being enforced and is an optional decision, then they'd surely know all about the procedure before undertaking it. It'd be like preventing circumcisions ... though, to be fair, they're carried out in a much better way.

Come to think of it, I'm neutral.

 

[FF7Guru]

Genital mutilation is wrong. If it was infected or something, it still wouldn't be right. I mean, would women, or men for that matter, have genitals at all if we didn't need them? If it's their religion, convert them. Culture, can't really help that. Still wrong.

 

[ZKnight7]

It seems wrong to me. Thier are no real medical reasons to inflict (FGC/M) on someone. And the religeons that support it arn't true religeons anyway. A religeon is only good it it brings peiople together what part of cutting up a girls genitals brings people together.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Okay, a warning: this subject can be a bit graphic, so if you are easily disturbed (I'm betting most of you are not), don't read.

How does everyone here feel about female genital mutilation (FGM)? I'm not talking about genital piercings, of course, but the practice that is carried out on young girls mainly in Africa. There are many forms of FGM, almost all involving the removal of the clitoris, and some involving the removal of the labia minora and the labia majora. Extreme forms of FGM involve the removal of all external genitalia. This procedure is not performed in a hospital, nor is it done with sterilized equipment. However, in many places, it is a common procedure-- it is both a cultural and religious tradition. My question is: is the World Health Organization right to try and stop this practice? Is it ethnocentric of them? I have actually heard arguments for and against this practice, and I'm interested in seeing what people think.

Hi Eryth, heres my opinion on this.

This subject is very touchy, but to me theres no right answer, as both sides present good arguments.

In America alot of girls lose their virginity when their teenagers, and most of the time get pregnant in the process, and this puts stress on their lives. Girls who go through FGM are less likely to have this problem, but also I've read that they:

A. Do Not Enjoy Sex
B. Their Partner + The Woman Do not enjoy sex
C. Leads to psychological problems

Im glad you brought up this issue, because I saw it today on Law and Order . Now I'm not in favor or against this idea, because well it does have some positives + negatives, surely if I have a daughter, I dont want her to get pregnant while she is a teenager, but I dont want her to be miserable either. As far as whether its right or wrong, I can't say for sure, I've never dealt with anyone whos undergone FGM, but I've met plenty of pregnant teens, and its very sad. So yeah...its not up to me to judge that. All I can say is custom is custom.

- Kuja

 

[theoriginaldoodle]

I cry when I hear/read about it. Its just sick and wrong and inhumane, thats all I have to say about it.

As for people who do it willingly, as body modifiction... That's really bizzarre..

 

[User on FFF]

I would say either way there's a problem.

If they're doing this willingly, that represents a problem in its own, and if they're being forced to do it, there's an obvious problem there too.

I, personally am against these acts.

 

[aerocrystal]

Hi Eryth, heres my opinion on this.

This subject is very touchy, but to me theres no right answer, as both sides present good arguments.

In America alot of girls lose their virginity when their teenagers, and most of the time get pregnant in the process, and this puts stress on their lives. Girls who go through FGM are less likely to have this problem, but also I've read that they:

A. Do Not Enjoy Sex
B. Their Partner + The Woman Do not enjoy sex
C. Leads to psychological problems

Im glad you brought up this issue, because I saw it today on Law and Order . Now I'm not in favor or against this idea, because well it does have some positives + negatives, surely if I have a daughter, I dont want her to get pregnant while she is a teenager, but I dont want her to be miserable either. As far as whether its right or wrong, I can't say for sure, I've never dealt with anyone whos undergone FGM, but I've met plenty of pregnant teens, and its very sad. So yeah...its not up to me to judge that. All I can say is custom is custom.

- Kuja

Alright, first of all, don't generalize. Most teenagers who are sexually active do not get pregnant. A large portion of the women I know had sex before they were twenty years old and nearly all of them have never been pregnant. If most sexually active teenagers became pregnant, then we would have a much greater teen pregnancy problem.

Furthermore, I don't think you can argue that FGM is justified because it stops young women from getting pregnant. There are other things that are far less dangerous and damaging that can stop young women from getting pregnant; masturbation, contraceptives, abstinence.

It's also hard to generalize about FGM/C. Depending on the country and ethnic group different forms are used. Sometimes only the tip of the clitoris is removed, in other places, the clitoris and labia are removed and the entire area is sewn together. Depending on the procedure and the woman, there are different reports on how much the women enjoy sex when the procedure has been done to them. Yet, this could have to do with the woman's personality (lying to herself or convincing herself otherwise) how she is built (some women have an easier time orgasming from vaginal sex while other women can only orgasm from clitoral stimulation) and how good of a lover she has (for example, if her husband/lover is good at foreplay she may still enjoy that or enjoy the closeness to him during intercourse even if she technically can't physically feel anything).

Yet, for the most part, women report less sexual enjoyment if they have any forms of the procedure than women who have not had it. It is also interesting to note that in nearly every place that FGM is practiced, male circumcision is also practiced.

I understand the argument that in some places FGM like male circumcision is considered a right of passage into adulthood. People in other countries might cringe at how some American woman go through excruciating pain for larger breasts or how painful braces can be in order to get perfect teeth. Because of this, I don't think you can outlaw it. Yet because of the mental and physical health risks and what FGM can symbolize (complete male control of women's sexuality) I do think we have the right to force other areas of the world to make in an option but not a requirement.

We should not attempt to end the practice through force, but instead through education programs. We should attempt to get information to young women in those areas about the risks of the procedure and what they could possibly lose without exaggerating and show them what the evidence suggests. To be fair, young men in the areas where FGM is carried out should also be educated about circumcision and its possible advantages and disadvantages. By acknowledging both male and female circumsion in the education programs it cannot be said that we are favoring one gender over another or that we are trying to undermine their culture.

A lot of times in certain countries where odd medical practices are carried out it's not out of any evil intent, but rather tradition and false scientific premises that if the procedure is not done, bad things will happen

Forcing the practice to end may just cause more bitterness towards the west and may cause the practice to go underground and become more dangerous than it is now.

 

[Cactuar]

I personally have no regard to other cultural or religious practices if they have no place in modern society. I understand that male circumcision may have benefits like considering hygiene etc. But it should not be forced on by religion at a young age, however most men would opt for one because of aesthetics, it would be a lot less painful when they were only infants.

As for female circumcision and genital mutilation, i believe that removing the clitoris serves no aesthetic or hygienic purpose and actually drastically impairs a woman's ability to enjoy sexual intercourse. Its just wrong even if these people are simply following their culture. Ironically, an increasing amount of women in the western world have started to look into Labia removal surgery, but not through cultural pressure, rather than society, putting pressure on women to opt for this plastic surgery, and thats what they call it over here, its like consensual female genital mutilation-the world has gone mad.

 

[Aero Anguish]

It should certainly be stopped. Why go to great lengths to help AIDS in Africa only to have people die of this?

Also, at their belief: It's in the human genome that people are made to spread. By removing that aspect, they are preserving something other than honor.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

I think you missunderstood my post, and even more so got insulted by it.

Alright, first of all, don't generalize. Most teenagers who are sexually active do not get pregnant. A large portion of the women I know had sex before they were twenty years old and nearly all of them have never been pregnant. If most sexually active teenagers became pregnant, then we would have a much greater teen pregnancy problem.

I said alot of girls who are sexually active at a young age get pregnant, I didn't say all of them did. Thats not generalizing at all, and I fail to see how you came to that assumption. I wasn't trying to portray girls who have sex early as sluts, which I think you feel I did.

Furthermore, I don't think you can argue that FGM is justified because it stops young women from getting pregnant. There are other things that are far less dangerous and damaging that can stop young women from getting pregnant; masturbation, contraceptives, abstinence.

I was playing devils advocate, and trying to present a fair argument for both sides. Quit being so close-minded.

It's also hard to generalize about FGM/C. Depending on the country and ethnic group different forms are used. Sometimes only the tip of the clitoris is removed, in other places, the clitoris and labia are removed and the entire area is sewn together. Depending on the procedure and the woman, there are different reports on how much the women enjoy sex when the procedure has been done to them. Yet, this could have to do with the woman's personality (lying to herself or convincing herself otherwise) how she is built (some women have an easier time orgasming from vaginal sex while other women can only orgasm from clitoral stimulation) and how good of a lover she has (for example, if her husband/lover is good at foreplay she may still enjoy that or enjoy the closeness to him during intercourse even if she technically can't physically feel anything).

Women who undergo FGM enjoy sex less, not a little bet less, ALOT less. Your scenarios are fair, but hey the woman is still enjoying herself.

Yet, for the most part, women report less sexual enjoyment if they have any forms of the procedure than women who have not had it. It is also interesting to note that in nearly every place that FGM is practiced, male circumcision is also practiced.

I said that in my post

I understand the argument that in some places FGM like male circumcision is considered a right of passage into adulthood. People in other countries might cringe at how some American woman go through excruciating pain for larger breasts or how painful braces can be in order to get perfect teeth. Because of this, I don't think you can outlaw it. Yet because of the mental and physical health risks and what FGM can symbolize (complete male control of women's sexuality) I do think we have the right to force other areas of the world to make in an option but not a requirement.

Nobody forces women to get larger breasts, they get them because they feel insecure. I personally think a woman large or small breasted is beautiful. And...their tradition is there tradition, although I do think FGM is disgusting.

We should not attempt to end the practice through force, but instead through education programs. We should attempt to get information to young women in those areas about the risks of the procedure and what they could possibly lose without exaggerating and show them what the evidence suggests. To be fair, young men in the areas where FGM is carried out should also be educated about circumcision and its possible advantages and disadvantages. By acknowledging both male and female circumsion in the education programs it cannot be said that we are favoring one gender over another or that we are trying to undermine their culture.

Educating people about thes ekind of things doesnt always work. In 8th grade or high school we take sex-ed classes, and/or a life management class. Neither have stopped kids from having sex, or using drugs. Although im sure its stopped a few.

A lot of times in certain countries where odd medical practices are carried out it's not out of any evil intent, but rather tradition and false scientific premises that if the procedure is not done, bad things will happen

Forcing the practice to end may just cause more bitterness towards the west and may cause the practice to go underground and become more dangerous than it is now.

I agree, I'm against FGM, but who am I say its wrong in general because I think so. I thought your response was an angry rant at first, but after reading further I can see it wasnt

- Kuja

 

[Dark-Angel]

I'm against it...for the sole reason that the girl is forced to do it against her will and she recieves serious pain from it in the long run. How can the religion in question justify this?

No religion should make someone do something that is obviously painful and against human rights. Look what else this kind of religion has pruduced...terrorism!, suicide bombings!, Blood Scafrifices!. Dare these rlegions do this sort of shit? Yes. And they also do this. Its plain fucked up. No god would want his people to die and feel pain. None!

Life in itself is precious.

 

[Donald Trump]

I'm against it...for the sole reason that the girl is forced to do it against her will and she recieves serious pain from it in the long run. How can the religion in question justify this?

No religion should make someone do something that is obviously painful and against human rights. Look what else this kind of religion has pruduced...terrorism!, suicide bombings!, Blood Scafrifices!. Dare these rlegions do this sort of shit? Yes. And they also do this. Its plain fucked up. No god would want his people to die and feel pain. None!

Life in itself is precious.

Did you even read the OP?
Now when I first read your anti-religion tirade, I thought it was against Islam, but as far as I know, they don't have blood sacrifices. So are you talking about Judaism? Because Yahweh wants blood sacrifices, and killing pain is his kinda thing. And of course Jews are involved in terrorism.
But the suicide bombing motif makes me think you are referring to Islam. In which case you are narrow minded and ignorant.
1) FGM is a cultural thing, ergo you hatred of Islam has no part in this discussion.
2) Every religion has been violent, not just Islam, so either you just don't know that, which seems unlikely, as most people have heard of the crusades, or you just hate arabs. However, they aren't mutually exclusive.
3) The women aren't forced to have this done.

It should certainly be stopped. Why go to great lengths to help AIDS in Africa only to have people die of this?

AIDS and FGM aren't even close to being on the same level, and women don't die from FGM

Also, at their belief: It's in the human genome that people are made to spread. By removing that aspect, they are preserving something other than honor.

Also would you mind explaining this, as I don't know what you mean.

 

[Gabranth]

AIDS and FGM aren't even close to being on the same level, and women don't die from FGM

I agree that they're not on the same level, but women do die from FGM; shock from extreme pain, excessive bleeding and infections if not treated. Considering the procedure is performed on girls at a young age, the former is the most likely cause of death.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

I'm against it...for the sole reason that the girl is forced to do it against her will and she recieves serious pain from it in the long run. How can the religion in question justify this?

No religion should make someone do something that is obviously painful and against human rights. Look what else this kind of religion has pruduced...terrorism!, suicide bombings!, Blood Scafrifices!. Dare these rlegions do this sort of shit? Yes. And they also do this. Its plain fucked up. No god would want his people to die and feel pain. None!

Life in itself is precious.

Judaism has accepted Male Circumcision, since the time of Abraham. I agree with Placebo, how can you say they are being forced to do it? Because you think its wrong?

I'm not sure which religion your specifically reffering to, but it sounds like its Islam. 15% of Muslims are Shiite Muslims aka the Crazy ones, and the other 85% are Sunni Muslims aka the Sane ones. Dont forget God made Abraham circumcise himself, and his son. Its not up to you to say what god does and doesnt want.

In response to your comment Gabranth, yes its true, although theres studies being done to contradict what your saying. Whether its a cover-up or The damn truth is unknown to me.

- Kuja

 

[Gabranth]

I doubt those studies are reliable; its just takes a bit of common sense - the countries which FGM is legal are poor, the a vast majority of the people in those countries don't have the money for anesthetics or antibiotics to clean the wound or stop infection....among other things.

Since the topic of FGM is extremely controversial, there's bound to be cover-ups in places. In response to Dark-Angel's post, I say this: if you were part of a region that accepts FGM, what would you feel about it then? Disagreeing against FGM is one thing, going against an entire religion is another.

 

[aerocrystal]

Judaism has accepted Male Circumcision, since the time of Abraham. I agree with Placebo, how can you say they are being forced to do it? Because you think its wrong?

I'm not sure which religion your specifically reffering to, but it sounds like its Islam. 15% of Muslims are Shiite Muslims aka the Crazy ones, and the other 85% are Sunni Muslims aka the Sane ones. Dont forget God made Abraham circumcise himself, and his son. Its not up to you to say what god does and doesnt want.

In response to your comment Gabranth, yes its true, although theres studies being done to contradict what your saying. Whether its a cover-up or The damn truth is unknown to me.

- Kuja

AIDs is a disease. FGM is a cultural practice. I agree with Placebo that there's a big difference between the both. The vast majority of people that get AIDs do not want it. Some women, for better or worse, do want circumcision.

Most Muslims do not believe in or practice FGM. FGM is a cultural practice that is not required by the Quran. Correct me if Im wrong but I don't think Muhammad's feelings about FGC are even written in the Quran but instead his later writings, which are not considered the word of God but instead just his suggestions about how someone could live but not required for Muslims--I don't remember the name of these writings.

Anyway, what is written by Muhammad is something along the lines that a woman might want or might be more beautiful (I can't remember the exact translation but I know he never says she has to) with a circumcision, and if she does want it, only the tip of the clitoris should be removed. So basically, FGM is not required by God according to any Muslims, and is only suggested as an option in its most mild form.

Furthermore, FGM is practiced by some non-Muslim communities.

Kuja, I quoted your post because I find your assertion that one very populous sect of Islam is "crazy" to be just as offensive and narrow minded as Dark Angel's claim that Islam promotes blood sacrifices.

What people seem to forget is that just a few people do awful things in the name of a very large religion doesn't mean that all people in that religion believe that. Islam is not a unified force. Just as in Christianity there are many sects and opinions. There are many people who are very religious and people who aren't. The vast majority of Muslims do not agree with people blowing themselves up and killing others, just like the vast majority of Christians would disagree with the KKK lynching people in the name of a Christian God.