Setting the Record Straight

[Howl]

I don't think that picking apart Sephiroth's flaws is a good way to divert people's attention to Kuja. In fact, that's only going to encourage a humongous debate.

There are little things here and there that I do and don't like about BOTH Sephiroth and Kuja. I find them to be two of the best FF villains of all time, and I don't think that this match is a fair comparison.

There are little details that can be picked apart from each character in the series...no matter what, someone will find a flaw.
"Oh, Sephiroth was stoic and emo."
"Oh, Kuja was girly and gay."
I don't think either of these accusations are true. If you find that Sephiroth is too emo, or that Kuja is too girly, then you're failing to put yourself in the correct atmosphere of the game. Both of these characters match their rolls with perfection. I find it hard to like one more than the other. ^__^

 

[Rockman X]

And, this is coming from the company who say VII and X are linked, even though its obvious VII and IX are more linked. I mean, come on, the continents even look similar! Just shifted by plate tectonics

lmao, VII and X are linked my ass. Aside from Tactics/XII/Vagrant Story, every FF has been on a different planet. The VII and IX worlds do look pretty similar though...

And what Kuja did was destroy some buildings/towers, that's all. People say he destroyed Terra ONLY because of what Mikoto said. But she didn't saw everything that happened there, because she was in the Invincible running away with the others. So, we don't even know if he really destroyed a planet. And even if he did so, it was still a small and dead world.

People say that Sephiroth is overrated, but Kefka and Kuja are too. People assuming Terra was the same size of Gaia, and that Kuja "blew up" the planet, is a very good example of this.

Erm....in Oilvert it shows both planets in that projection. They're pretty much the same size. And in Disc 2, after Brahne summons Bahamut, Kuja says "The final act will take us away from Gaia, and I will kill my nemesis...with my own hand!" Notice he says away from Gaia, not inside Gaia. And the game says there is only one crystal and that it created life, it never said anything about a tiny crystal being in each planet. I've heard theories about when Kuja destroyed the crystal it shattered and a little piece went into each planet, but the game never says anything about it.

WTF are you talking about? o__O Kuja has never been overrated and never will be.There's too many homophobes out there. And Kefka's overrated too? Um....i'm not even going to say anything about that one.

I don't think that picking apart Sephiroth's flaws is a good way to divert people's attention to Kuja. In fact, that's only going to encourage a humongous debate.

There are little things here and there that I do and don't like about BOTH Sephiroth and Kuja. I find them to be two of the best FF villains of all time, and I don't think that this match is a fair comparison.

There are little details that can be picked apart from each character in the series...no matter what, someone will find a flaw.
"Oh, Sephiroth was stoic and emo."
"Oh, Kuja was girly and gay."
I don't think either of these accusations are true. If you find that Sephiroth is too emo, or that Kuja is too girly, then you're failing to put yourself in the correct atmosphere of the game. Both of these characters match their rolls with perfection. I find it hard to like one more than the other. ^__^

There wasnt even a debate going on until The Crystal showed up...and ironically enough we're not even debating if Kuja or Sephi is better, it's just a debate over that ridiculous Ultimania guide. I think i'm just gonna end my debate with Mr. Crystal with this post anyway, he's obviously made up his mind that the Ultimania guide is right.

You're right about Kuja and Sephi filling their rolls perfectly...but Kuja is still my favorite, and i still think his character is better *shrug*

 

[The Crystal]

Erm....in Oilvert it shows both planets in that projection. They're pretty much the same size. And in Disc 2, after Brahne summons Bahamut, Kuja says "The final act will take us away from Gaia, and I will kill my nemesis...with my own hand!" Notice he says away from Gaia, not inside Gaia. And the game says there is only one crystal and that it created life, it never said anything about a tiny crystal being in each planet. I've heard theories about when Kuja destroyed the crystal it shattered and a little piece went into each planet, but the game never says anything about it.

What i said about the crystals in my previous post, is in the UOG. Everything stated in the book was thought by Sakaguchi and his team, and it's cannon.

And we see the planets merging together in Memoria. In the Crystal World Kuja state that Terra is still assimilating Gaia, meaning that the planet is still there, it wasn't blew up. Everything is presented in the game itself.

WTF are you talking about? o__O Kuja has never been overrated and never will be.There's too many homophobes out there. And Kefka's overrated too? Um....i'm not even going to say anything about that one.

You don't talk with many people in the internet about FF, do you?

There wasnt even a debate going on until The Crystal showed up...and ironically enough we're not even debating if Kuja or Sephi is better, it's just a debate over that ridiculous Ultimania guide. I think i'm just gonna end my debate with Mr. Crystal with this post anyway, he's obviously made up his mind that the Ultimania guide is right.

Well, i prefer to believe in what the creators of the game says. They know more about the game than us, because... you know... They created it.

 

[Grand Lethal]

If it wasn't mentioned in the game (I.E: Gaia and Terra having their own "Crystals" inside themselves) then I don't see the point in believing in it.

If one of those guides said: "Amarant actually had retractable Wolverine claws, that magically changed once you bought that type of claw!" ... You'd believe it? Without any evidence in the actual game?

Yeah, Terra and Gaia were the same size. In Memoria, if the planets were physically merging together, how could Terra be inside Gaia?

 

[The Crystal]

If it wasn't mentioned in the game (I.E: Gaia and Terra having their own "Crystals" inside themselves) then I don't see the point in believing in it.

If one of those guides said: "Amarant actually had retractable Wolverine claws, that magically changed once you bought that type of claw!" ... You'd believe it? Without any evidence in the actual game?

Yeah, Terra and Gaia were the same size. In Memoria, if the planets were physically merging together, how could Terra be inside Gaia?

What is presented in the games, and what is stated in the books, don't have any diference. Because both of them were created by the same group of people. If you believe in one you have to believe in the other. Each FF is a story that they are "telling" to us. THEIR story, not yours. You don't have the authority to decide what is cannon and what isn't, only SE can do that.

Everything they state in the UOGs are facts, you liking it or not.


But what i'm trying to say here, is that Kuja didn't blow up any planet(like his quote in Crystal World already proved). Anyone who says he can do that, is overrating him.

 

[Grand Lethal]

I haven't read your post, but I think for the topic's sake we should stop. We're derailing it. We're never gonna agree. So can we just agree to disagree?

When comparing Sephiroth to Kuja, I'm sure VengefulRonin just wanted to add the point that Kuja did infact blow things up out of sheer power. It doesn't really matter *what* he blew up, whether it be a planet, castle, town or a few of those crystal tree thingies. He (she? ) is just trying to get the point across that Kuja did that, and Sephiroth didn't*

* Not that I'd know, I've not played FFVII

 

[Rockman X]

Aww man, we're ending the argument? Damn, just when i find a quote that proves Kuja blew up Terra. Oh well xD

Anyway, yeeeeeah...my initial point of this topic was to say how Kuja is alot more powerful and cunning than Sephiroth, plus his character is just developed better (talking about his personality, not his appearance, as i know some of you dont like his looks), not to get into an argument over some dumb strategy guide.

If we wanna argue it should at least be about Sephi and Kuja, not did Kuja blow up Terra or not. But um...if anyone is interested in seeing the quote that proves he did, lemme know, i'll be happy to post it xD

 

[Dark_Sephiroth]

i have a point kuja makes his silver dragon do his dirty work (end of disk 3). Which his silver dragon fails pretty badly.

 

[Rockman X]

Huh?

I dont recall kuja ever doing anything with his silver dragon but riding it. Are you referring to when Garland summons a silver dragon at Pandemonium?

 

[Grand Lethal]

I think he's on about the time when you fight a Silver Dragon on the Iifa Tree ... or he could be on about the invasion of Silver Dragons out of Memoria ... It's not even mentioned whether Kuja had control over EVERY Silver Dragon.


Plus they got wtfpwned by Cid and the Lindblum Airforce, and the Red Rose.

 

[Rockman X]

Well the silver dragon at the Iifa Tree is all the way back in disc 2...i dont see how it counts as doing his dirty work anyway.

As for the silver dragons swarming out of Memoria...i'm not sure what brought that on. I kinda figured maybe it was the Nova Dragon sending all those things out.

 

[Scarlet]

He's a multi-dimensional character. Throughout the game we learn more about his motives, past, and relation to Zidane and Garnet, and his personality even goes through changes, especially at the end of the game.

Alright, beofore you guys say: 'Omgz it's cauze j00 like Sephiroth!' I actually like both characters. I'm not picking any sides.

No, he really is not a multi-facet character. A multi-facet character is a character that you see with many sides, reacting to differently to each situation. Also a very complex character, example such as an anti-hero.

Kuja is a very one-dimensional villian.

Spoiler

Kuja hated Zidane because he was going to be the perfect Genome, 'Angel of Death'. Kuja was also originally just a tool for Garland to do his evil deeds. Kuja, of course, goes against Garland. At the, once Kuja was defeated and was about to die, he apologizes to Zidane. Kuja had nothing anymore, thus he accepted his defeat.

Point is, doesn't really make a Kuja multi-facet character.

Oh and Sephiroth is a one-dimensional character as well. ;p

 

[Rockman X]

OMGZ! j00 liek Sephi! SCR3W U!

*throws a fit like a 13-year old on X-box live*

Haha, sorry, i just had to do that xD

I'll admit, Kuja isnt exactly the definition of a multi-dimensional character. But i do like how the story gradually reveals who he is, what he's doing, etc. rather than just throwing it at you all at once, then revealing one little "surprise" toward the end like in VII (

Spoiler

omgz! infamous SOLDIER Sephi is wreaking havoc with his mom!

then

Spoiler

OMGZ! the Sephi wreaking havoc was a clone and the real one is in crystal!

).

 

[The Crystal]

Aww man, we're ending the argument? Damn, just when i find a quote that proves Kuja blew up Terra. Oh well xD

Anyway, yeeeeeah...my initial point of this topic was to say how Kuja is alot more powerful and cunning than Sephiroth, plus his character is just developed better (talking about his personality, not his appearance, as i know some of you dont like his looks), not to get into an argument over some dumb strategy guide.

If we wanna argue it should at least be about Sephi and Kuja, not did Kuja blow up Terra or not. But um...if anyone is interested in seeing the quote that proves he did, lemme know, i'll be happy to post it xD

And why we would argue against you? You are being very clear here. "Kuja is better than Sephiroth and the word of the creators is not important, because what i'm saying is the truth. My opinion is a fact." Arguing with someone like you is useless.

You think Kuja is better than Sephiroth. But this is nothing more than your opinion. It seems to me you created this thread only to impose your opinion unto others.


Well, i'm sorry but in my opinion, Sephiroth is a better villain than Kuja. As proved in the game and stated by the creators themselves, he controlled an alien(Jenova) who could kill an entire race(Cetra). He killed the president of the most powerfull "empire" in the world, without breaking a sweat. Not only killed a Midgar Zolom(something the heroes couldn't do in that point of the story), but impaled it in a tree("like a work of art" to show his power). Killed many people using Jenova's body. Held back Holly, a spell that could kill everything in the planet(as stated by Bugenhagen) with the power of his will alone. Created fear in everyone of the planet, by summoning Meteor. Released the Weapons(unintentionally, but he did that anyway), that begun attacking and killing everything in their way. Created a disease(Geostigma) that killed millions, if not billions of people. And some other things i didn't comment.

And about their power, Kuja could destroy the surface of a small and dead planet. Sephiroth could transform a planet(big and full of life) in a dead vessel, and move it across the universe. Sephiroth is more impressive to me.

Something cool about Sephiroth too, is the aura around him. An aura of power and fear, that no other FF villain have. Just look at the Shinra Ship or Ancient Temple for example. Sephiroth coming out of the ground like a ghost, with the sinister music "Those Chosen by the Panet" playing, and you can hear heartbeats. It was very creepy. Or in the core of the planet, when he lifted Avalanche in the air and was crushing their bodies, only with the power of his mind(and they were scared of his true power).
Sephiroth's aura/presence in FFVII is very powerful. Much more than Kuja's in FFIX IMO.

Sephiroth is a better villain than Kuja. This is just my opinion though. I will not try to impose it unto others.


But Kuja is a great villain. Powerful, very smart, full of resources, with great quotes. And during a big part of the game, he have an aura of mistery around him, that is very interesting.

 

[YF-23]

Well, i'm sorry but in my opinion, Sephiroth is a better villain than Kuja. As proved in the game and stated by the creators themselves, he controlled an alien(Jenova) who could kill an entire race(Cetra).

And Kuja nearly commited triple genocide. That's 3, count 'em, THREE races.

He killed the president of the most powerfull "empire" in the world, without breaking a sweat.

Yeah, because the president of Shinra would be hard to kill by an elite swordsman with a katana 7 feet long.[/sarcasm]

Not only killed a Midgar Zolom(something the heroes couldn't do in that point of the story), but impaled it in a tree("like a work of art" to show his power). Killed many people using Jenova's body.

What does physical strength have to do with how good a character is? Besides, killing a big snake isn't really impressive, compare to what Kuja did through his influence (and since you are talking about Seph's strong point, physical strength, it's only natural to compare that to Kuja's strong point, influence).

Held back Holly, a spell that could kill everything in the planet(as stated by Bugenhagen) with the power of his will alone. Created fear in everyone of the planet, by summoning Meteor. Released the Weapons(unintentionally, but he did that anyway), that begun attacking and killing everything in their way. Created a disease(Geostigma) that killed millions, if not billions of people. And some other things i didn't comment.

Kuja got beat up willingly in order to enter Trance mode. He did create fear to all who knew of his existance (safe for the main party) and he tricked the Kingdoms of the Mist Continent (potential enemies) into fighting each other and at the same time using them to further his own goals. In the same way that Sephiroth released the Weapons, Kuja released Necron, who would destroy ALL life, not just the life on Gaia. Storywise, Necron was more of a threat than all the Weapons combined.

And about their power, Kuja could destroy the surface of a small and dead planet. Sephiroth could transform a planet(big and full of life) in a dead vessel, and move it across the universe. Sephiroth is more impressive to me.

Yeah, well, IIRC Kuja couldn't teleport, but he had to have gotten back to Gaia from Terra somehow. So, who needs a meteor when you can just float your way to the next planet, wreak havoc, then fly to the next?

Something cool about Sephiroth too, is the aura around him. An aura of power and fear, that no other FF villain have. Just look at the Shinra Ship or Ancient Temple for example. Sephiroth coming out of the ground like a ghost, with the sinister music "Those Chosen by the Panet" playing, and you can hear heartbeats. It was very creepy. Or in the core of the planet, when he lifted Avalanche in the air and was crushing their bodies, only with the power of his mind(and they were scared of his true power).
Sephiroth's aura/presence in FFVII is very powerful. Much more than Kuja's in FFIX IMO.

Sephiroth did inspire fear... But until the end, Kuja was in complete control. As for other FF villains that inspire like Sephiroth... I haven't finished V, VI, VII or VIII yet, but one with an aura similar to Sephiroth is, IMO, ExDeath.

 

[Rockman X]

And about their power, Kuja could destroy the surface of a small and dead planet. Sephiroth could transform a planet(big and full of life) in a dead vessel, and move it across the universe. Sephiroth is more impressive to me.

Alright, i was gonna ignore you, but since you keep challenging the fact that Kuja destroyed Terra, i'll just show you the quote.

Beginning of Disc 4, when your party has just taken the Terrans to the Black Mage village:

Dagger: Even if we go back to Lindblum to get equipped, please don't tell Uncle Cid about our plans.
Zidane: Are we ready...?
Dagger: Yes. Let's go.
Mikoto: You haven't got a chance.
Mikoto: You saw Kuja's power. He destroyed a world by himself...
Mikoto: You don't even have a million in one chance of defeating him... You'll all die.

You cant get any clearer than that. The game tells you he destroyed Terra, not just ruined the surface. And you can see right in the FMV that everything below those platforms has gone all firey and molten, so it would appear that his damage far extended the platforms (the surface). So if you want to deny that...well...have fun denying the game. You also said in an earlier post that there were mini-crystals in every planet. WRONG.

Disc 4, in Space (after defeating Lich), a conversation between Zidane and Garland:

Zidane: ...So, what am I gonna find by tracing back our roots?
Garland: ...A presence that presides over all life and memories. The crystal...
Zidane: Crystal...
Garland: You are on your own now.
Garland: Zidane...take care of Kuja.
Garland: ...and protect the crystal.
Garland: Farewell...

As you can see, Garland clearly states that there is just one crystal, it created everything, there is no plural form of the word "crystal" anywhere in there. In case you need MORE facts (you seem to so readily ignore facts), i'll give you more quotes.

Disc 4, Zidane confronting Kuja in Crystal World:

Kuja: Take a good look. Isn't it beautiful?
Kuja: It's the original crystal... This is where it all began...
Kuja: The birthplace of all things...
Kuja: Once I destroy it, everything will be gone.
Kuja: Gaia, Terra, the universe, everything...
Kuja: Your lives and memories, too, of course. HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!

Again, no mention of mini-crystals. There is just one crystal that created everything, were there mini-crystals in other planets then those planets would likely survive after the original crystal was destroyed.

And YF-23...wow, very good argument, my congratulations to you. You also saved me alot more typing xD

 

[YF-23]

Thank you, VR, and I agree with the majority of your post except for one part.

Alright, i was gonna ignore you, but since you keep challenging the fact that Kuja destroyed Terra, i'll just show you the quote.

Beginning of Disc 4, when your party has just taken the Terrans to the Black Mage village:

Dagger: Even if we go back to Lindblum to get equipped, please don't tell Uncle Cid about our plans.
Zidane: Are we ready...?
Dagger: Yes. Let's go.
Mikoto: You haven't got a chance.
Mikoto: You saw Kuja's power. He destroyed a world by himself...
Mikoto: You don't even have a million in one chance of defeating him... You'll all die.

You don't need to blast a whole planet ala Death Star to destroy a world. But, what Kuja did (destroy the surface) was more than enough. It was practically the same as having a nuclear apocalypse. At the end of the FMV in which he destroys Terra, everything around him (and seeing how Ultima kept progressing, the rest of the planet's surface) was up into flames. Destroying all life in a world and the chance of it being inhabited again in the future is equal to destroying a world.

Still, that doesn't mean Kuja's world destroying powers are any weaker than Sephiroth's. Besides, you can stop a meteor since it's material; what are you gonna do against energy/magic?

 

[Rockman X]

You don't need to blast a whole planet ala Death Star to destroy a world. But, what Kuja did (destroy the surface) was more than enough. It was practically the same as having a nuclear apocalypse. At the end of the FMV in which he destroys Terra, everything around him (and seeing how Ultima kept progressing, the rest of the planet's surface) was up into flames. Destroying all life in a world and the chance of it being inhabited again in the future is equal to destroying a world.

True. And i'm not saying he necessarily blew it up ala Death Star, but lemme show you where I'm getting my idea from. Here's a collection of FMVs from the end of disc 3 to disc 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrfQPqnIGds

Gathering from the FMV when you first reach Terra (3:12, water sound effects) and other non-FMV scenes (like when Kuja arrives and rants and you can see the reflection of the Invincible coming up beside him), it looks as if underneath those platforms is primarily water. Hell, just exploring around before you reach Bran Bal you can tell it's pretty much water. Now, as for the damage he did to Terra, i dont think he directly blew the thing into bits, but he started a cataclysmic chain reaction that did destroy the entire planet, not just the surface. At 4:50 in that video, notice how everything below him is molten and on fire? That was once water. So i'm guessing that either some of his blasts or explosions of platforms actually made it down to the core of the planet or close to it, thus releasing all the nice molten stuff. Now as for whether that made the planet explode or just melt down and turn into a big pile of ash, i dont know, but either way the extent of his damage reached much further than the surface of the planet.

So that's my theory I could be right, or i could just as easily be dead wrong, but i'm deducing it from the game rather than a damn strategy guide like The Crystal. In my opinion, Crystal, i think that if you have to get all your ideas from that Ultimania Guide and cant even pay close enough attention to the story to learn things from it and formulate your own ideas, you shouldnt be playing RPGs in the first place.

Having to learn about the story from a strategy guide rather than the story itself is pretty weak. That's like watching Transformers, then as soon as the movie is over asking someone next to you to tell you what happened. It's not like the story in IX is confusing, it's really easy to understand and follow. All the Ultimania guides are is Square Enix trying to capitalize on more of Square's great games. Thats it. Everything you need to know is right there in the game. It might not be glaringly obvious, but with a little attention (i.e. reading the dialogue and not forgetting about previous events) you can pretty much understand everything in the game, even where Necron came from.

When Sakaguchi made IX, he didnt go "hmm, i think i'll make it confusing so that four years later my taken-over company can release a book explaining the game."

 

[Grand Lethal]

When did Sephiorth ride across the universe on a planet?

... I don't remember ever hearing of that happening :\ Then again, I haven't played the game, but I have watched AC. The planet wasn't dead then :\

Sure, Sephiroth threatened to destroy the planet. So did Kuja. Hell, Kuja threatened to destroy the existence of all existence. I think that point goes to Kuja




Yeah, I know I don't really hold any ground in this argument, but that's just my thoughts.

 

[Amizon]

Now here's a point that I'd like to raise that makes Sephiroth superior to Kuja. Kuja is dead, but Sephiroth returned through his remnants. You gotta give the silver-haired sword-wielding maniac credit for that.