Zack vs. Cloud: Who's Stronger?

[-Sephiroth-]

Cloud, all though I hate to admit it, it would definately be cloud... you have to think Zack fought along side Sephiroth, he was merely anythin compared to him, Sephiroth was owning whilst Zack laid back and did majorly bad damage.

now, Cloud was serving underneath Zack, but then again, cloud did go on, get all that training and eventually (to my dissapointment) defeated Sephirtoh.

Short paragraphs explaining why cloud is the stronger being.

 

[L]

I'm really surprised at some of the arguments in this thread, like people who've never played Crisis Core trying to debate which character is stronger.

You can't even properly judge the characters without even knowing who they are and almost everything they've accomplished. It's really annoying seeing how badly Zack is being downplayed,

Spoiler

despite his defeat of Angeal and Genesis, who could both take Sephiroth together fairly well.

Perhaps people aren't really understanding there are very few First Class SOLDIERs (No, they do not come in abundance. The only 1st Class SOLDIER operatives are Zack, Sephiroth, Angeal, and Genesis.), and Zack killed all the best operatives in SOLDIER besides Sephiroth. Cloud has probably never even touched such an intense battle and managed to hold his own - by himself.

Genesis and the Destruction of the Shinra Army were by far beyond Cloud's reach alone. Zack killed two of the Greatest SOLDIERs in their prime monstrous transformations, Genesis being as equally powerful as Bizzarro Sephiroth - if not stronger.

Zack killed Genesis in prime form, yet he was felled by an army of grunts. Obviously, there were a large number of those grunts, as he killed all but three, and as previously stated by Oathkeeper they had Air support - helicopters with Machine guns, rocket launchers, you name it.

 

[Jimmy]

I desagree, i think that the main problem here is that you consider all of Clouds acomplishements to be futile, either because he was teamming up or because his opponent was tired, or because his opponent was no trying.

Yet when it comes to Zack you praise every battle that he had, this shows serious favoritism.

Spoiler

Zack beats Angelis and Genesis, two top SOLDIERS, who might have been second and third best soldiers in the Shinra army, but who were never number one, as Sephiroth is considered to be the greatest SOLDIER that ever existed. Both of them together attack Sephiroth together and he blocks all of their attacks without much effort, then Genesis gets serious and attacks Sephiroth with full force, and yet all we see like in the Zack or Cloud duel with Sephiroth, is Sephiroth deflecting all of Genesis attacks, and finally when he attacks gains the advantage on Genesis, and finally Angelis stops the battle. Zack beats Genesis, it's an amazing acomplishement this makes Zack the 2nd best SOLDIER. Zack shows us yet again that he is indeed an elite fighter, by taking down an army before dying. Zack is incredible, he does all these amazing things...yet what he does not do is put up a good show against Sephiroth, in fact he got owned.

I agree with you Zack (the poster lol not the CC one) in all of your points, except for one, you say that Cloud alone as never "touched an intense battle" and hold himself on his own. This is pure denial in my opinion, how can you actually say that Cloud as never had battles like this!? AC...he fights Yazoo, Loz, Kadaj alone three times, he battles Kadaj one on one and defeats him, he battles a much more powerful Sephiroth who even not using his full power uses new skills that put him in advantage, that we never see when he fights with Zack, and this is in AC. In CC, Cloud is able to do what nobody else as done and that's resist Sephiroth, the man as a sword pierced through his chest and yet finds the streght alone to lift Sephiroth and sent him crashing.

How can you consider all of these not intense battles, equally if not more intense then anything Zack as encountered?

 

[Dean Winchester]

I agree with you Zack (the poster lol not the CC one) in all of your points, except for one, you say that Cloud alone as never "touched an intense battle" and hold himself on his own. This is pure denial in my opinion, how can you actually say that Cloud as never had battles like this!? AC...he fights Yazoo, Loz, Kadaj alone three times

[
But not all of three at the same time, and the only battle that Yazoo and Loz battle as a team was in the battle near that City of Ancients (if I am correct and if I remember well) and Yazoo and Loz were actually pawning him two against one. Still we must count the factor that Cloud was affected by Geostigma, so that might have influenced that battle as well.

quote]he battles Kadaj one on one and defeats him,[/quote]

Kadaj was a fraction of Sephiroth, and also he was fighting Cloud while holding that box, so Kadaj was kind of busy trying to prevent Cloud from destroying "mother" (The Jenova Cells).

he battles a much more powerful Sephiroth who even not using his full power uses new skills that put him in advantage, that we never see when he fights with Zack, and this is in AC.

Sephiroth just plays with Cloud and allows him to defeat him because Sephiroth clearly states constantly that his intention is not to kill him, but to make him suffer. Sephiroth just enjoys watching Cloud in pain, and he will live on forever fueled by Cloud's fears.

In CC, Cloud is able to do what nobody else as done and that's resist Sephiroth, the man as a sword pierced through his chest and yet finds the streght alone to lift Sephiroth and sent him crashing.

Sephiroth wasn't paying Cloud that much attention. If Sephiroth ever decides to fight Cloud, seriously with the intentions to kill him, Cloud would lose. Also Cloud is the hero, so he is meant to win. Zack was removed from the storyline because he would probably steal Cloud's position as the leading character if he were still alive.

How can you consider all of these not intense battles, equally if not more intense then anything Zack as encountered?

True, but Zack was not the protagonists (of the main original FFVII storyline), so his fights weren't influenced by the factor of being the leading man. Cloud wins because he is meant to win, or else FFVII would be a tragedy if Sephiroth kills Cloud, not to mention that it would drive thousands of fanboys/fangirls into madness.

 

[Jimmy]

No he also fights them on the highway, and near the entrance of Midgar despite the fact that he was on top of bike it does not mean that it can't be considered a fight.

Holding a box is not relevant enough, to justify the fact that Cloud defeated Kadaj, if Kadaj used two swords or something of that kind it would make a differance but he does not. Also Kadaj would not attack Cloud if he was more interested in protecting his "mother". Yet again this is just another excuse to minimize Clouds acomplishment.

I agree that Sephiroth was not giving Cloud enough credit, but that does not mean that he allowed Cloud to kill him, Sephiroth lost because he was too cocky and never expected Cloud to pull out such an amazing attack.

Cloud being the major character of course means that he as to be the one who pulls out the most amazing victories that's true, but it's not an excuse to justify all of his wins, Zack is also the main character of CC and yet loses to Sephiroth.

 

[red_dragon]

also - i haven't read all of the forum but i don' know if the point has been mentioned but developers state in the ultimania

Genesis = Sephiroth in terms of power

Spoiler

Zack is able to defeat Genesis and gives Sephiroth (who is pissed and wants Zack dead in as short time as possible - i.e he used 100% power) a good battle in which he is able to hold his own

Sephiroth in the Cloud match was overly arrogant and used a fraction of his ability and therefore lost - this being when cloud was with his numerous teammates - he also uses swordplay only aside for one instance in which the attack is not even directed att cloud

short post cos im on my ipod touch

 

[Dean Winchester]

No he also fights them on the highway, and near the entrance of Midgar despite the fact that he was on top of bike it does not mean that it can't be considered a fight.

Holding a box is not relevant enough, to justify the fact that Cloud defeated Kadaj, if Kadaj used two swords or something of that kind it would make a differance but he does not. Also Kadaj would not attack Cloud if he was more interested in protecting his "mother". Yet again this is just another excuse to minimize Clouds acomplishment.

I agree that Sephiroth was not giving Cloud enough credit, but that does not mean that he allowed Cloud to kill him, Sephiroth lost because he was too cocky and never expected Cloud to pull out such an amazing attack.

Cloud being the major character of course means that he as to be the one who pulls out the most amazing victories that's true, but it's not an excuse to justify all of his wins, Zack is also the main character of CC and yet loses to Sephiroth.

And this proves that Cloud wins because he is meant to win anyways. If it were real life, Cloud would never stand a chance one his own against a full power Sephiroth if Sephiroth stops playing with him and decides to get rid of him.

 

[L]

Yet when it comes to Zack you praise every battle that he had, this shows serious favoritism.

Not every battle. Every major battle.

Only Shinra Army vs Zack, Angeal, and Genesis.

Spoiler

Zack beats Angeal and Genesis, two top SOLDIERS, who might have been second and third best soldiers in the Shinra army, but who were never number one, as Sephiroth is considered to be the greatest SOLDIER that ever existed.

Again...

Angeal and Genesis can both take on Sephiroth fairly. Also, you don't know what all-out is since you haven't played the game, as all-out as you described it is just a

Spoiler

flashback of the past from Sephiroth's memory, sometime before Zack even made it into SOLDIER, probably since he described the setting as 'back then'

. :wink:

All out is Genesis turning into his avatar form, and Angeal transforming himself into a monster.

I agree with you Zack (the poster lol not the CC one) in all of your points, except for one, you say that Cloud alone as never "touched an intense battle" and hold himself on his own. This is pure denial in my opinion, how can you actually say that Cloud as never had battles like this!? AC...he fights Yazoo, Loz, Kadaj alone three times, he battles Kadaj one on one and defeats him, he battles a much more powerful Sephiroth who even not using his full power uses new skills that put him in advantage, that we never see when he fights with Zack, and this is in AC.

Yar, he did fight Yazoo, Loz, and Kadaj... but you'll have to forgive me as I completely discard AC for the pile of crap I think it to be. If it wasn't so animu, I'd probably count a lot more of Cloud into impressive feats, but it's just too crap to care about in the least imho.

In CC, Cloud is able to do what nobody else as done and that's resist Sephiroth, the man as a sword pierced through his chest and yet finds the streght alone to lift Sephiroth and sent him crashing.

I was just about to get to that part, as it's really the only impressive thing I think Cloud has ever done.

 

[Jimmy]

Not every battle. Every major battle.

Only Shinra Army vs Zack, Angeal, and Genesis.

Spoiler

Again...

Angeal and Genesis can both take on Sephiroth fairly. Also, you don't know what all-out is since you haven't played the game, as all-out as you described it is just a

Spoiler

flashback of the past from Sephiroth's memory, sometime before Zack even made it into SOLDIER, probably since he described the setting as 'back then'

. :wink:

All out is Genesis turning into his avatar form, and Angeal transforming himself into a monster.



Yar, he did fight Yazoo, Loz, and Kadaj... but you'll have to forgive me as I completely discard AC for the pile of crap I think it to be. If it wasn't so animu, I'd probably count a lot more of Cloud into impressive feats, but it's just too crap to care about in the least imho.


I was just about to get to that part, as it's really the only impressive thing I think Cloud has ever done.

Spoiler

So you're discarding Clouds acomplishements because you don't like AC?

Genesis and Angelis at that time probably could not transform into the mean monster machines that they do, by that logic it would only be fair if Angelis and Genesis transformed into monsters if Sephiroth could also turn to Bizarro or Safer Sephiroth. Actually it would be an interesting duel between monsters...hmmm

Yet you still consider that Cloud was the only one able to actually do some damage or stop Sephiroth in Nibelheim, you're giving me reason there which is cool.

And this proves that Cloud wins because he is meant to win anyways. If it were real life, Cloud would never stand a chance one his own against a full power Sephiroth if Sephiroth stops playing with him and decides to get rid of him.

Not relevant, real life is not FF, in fact Final Fantasy is probably one of the most distant things that we can have from reality

Except the emotions part...but all battles are far from reality.

 

[Dean Winchester]

Not relevant, real life is not FF, in fact Final Fantasy is probably one of the most distant things that we can have from reality

Except the emotions part...but all battles are far from reality.

I believe I stated my opinion wrongly. What I meant is, if we were to take all Battle System mechanics, storyline, and all the factors that force Cloud to win, always, and have them fight as if they never met each other, both fighting seriously, Sephiroth would win. But if we add all the elements of VII, Cloud will keep winning against anyone regardless of what is done.

 

[Jimmy]

I believe I stated my opinion wrongly. What I meant is, if we were to take all Battle System mechanics, storyline, and all the factors that force Cloud to win, always, and have them fight as if they never met each other, both fighting seriously, Sephiroth would win. But if we add all the elements of VII, Cloud will keep winning against anyone regardless of what is done.

Agreed if Sephiroth really wanted he could probably destroy the world and end everything right there, but this is not about Sephiroth and Cloud streght it's about Cloud and Zack's power.

 

[Dean Winchester]

Yes, but if we consider that Zack took on Genesis, alone, and defeated him even if Genesis was a 1st Class Soldier and with a power similar to Sephiroth, then we see that Cloud is just being lucky. Zack was ambushed by a group of soldiers, and not even with the best sword skills could Zack get out of that situation, alive.

 

[Saix]

Jimmy, avoid double-posting in future.

Posts merged.

 

[Jimmy]

Yes, but if we consider that Zack took on Genesis, alone, and defeated him even if Genesis was a 1st Class Soldier and with a power similar to Sephiroth, then we see that Cloud is just being lucky. Zack was ambushed by a group of soldiers, and not even with the best sword skills could Zack get out of that situation, alive.

That as all been said before, Genesis was indeed a 1st Class Soldier but not with a power similar to Sephiroth, nobody as a power similar to Sephiroth, if Genesis was similar to Sephiroth, Zack would have lost to Genesis not won.

And sorry FFVII for the double post, i got carried away again with my speech

 

[Dean Winchester]

The only thing that makes Cloud special is that he is the hero of FFVII storyline. No matter how much we debate, each time Square Enix makes a FFVII sequel and haves Cloud fighting Sephiroth, Cloud will always win or else Sephiroth would end up destroying everything.

It is like Goku and Freeza, or Gohan and Cell, or Harry Potter and Voldemort (at least Voldemort pawned Harry a few times before being defeated once and for all).

I believe that, what ruined FFVII storyline a little was the fact of making Cloud the ultimate fighter of that storyline. Not even Vincent could beat Cloud, regardless of having Chaos or not, because the story is not meant to make Cloud lose.

 

[red_dragon]

That as all been said before, Genesis was indeed a 1st Class Soldier but not with a power similar to Sephiroth, nobody as a power similar to Sephiroth, if Genesis was similar to Sephiroth, Zack would have lost to Genesis not won.

And sorry FFVII for the double post, i got carried away again with my speech

k noone read my post

also - i haven't read all of the forum but i don' know if the point has been mentioned but developers state in the ultimania

Genesis = Sephiroth in terms of power

Spoiler

Zack is able to defeat Genesis and gives Sephiroth (who is pissed and wants Zack dead in as short time as possible - i.e he used 100% power) a good battle in which he is able to hold his own

Sephiroth in the Cloud match was overly arrogant and used a fraction of his ability and therefore lost - this being when cloud was with his numerous teammates - he also uses swordplay only aside for one instance in which the attack is not even directed att cloud

short post cos im on my ipod touch

 

[Jimmy]

It wasn't Goku who killed Freeza it was Trunks.

But that's besides the point lol, i agree that they could have done more with the ending of FFVII AC, they could have actually made Vincent or someone go and help Cloud fight Sephiroth instead of looking from the Highwind like a bunch of retards. But nonetheless it was the ending we got.

 

[Dean Winchester]

It wasn't Goku who killed Freeza it was Trunks.

Not relevant, and besides Trunks was already more powerful than Goku the first time he fought Freeza. But if you insist, it is like Goku and Omega Shenron. Goku has his "Spirit Bomb", Cloud has his "Omnislash".

But that's besides the point lol, i agree that they could have done more with the ending of FFVII AC, they could have actually made Vincent or someone go and help Cloud fight Sephiroth instead of looking from the Highwind like a bunch of retards. But nonetheless it was the ending we got.

I concur, besides, we've been witnessing the downfall of old games due to some of Square Enix's idiocy. If they ever remake AC, which I doubt, it would be cool to see Cloud and Vincent teaming against the three "Remnants" of Jenova (Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz), and then having them defeating Sephiroth, dealing the final blow with their combined finishers

I guess that's too much to ask...

 

[Saix]

Although intriguing, this thread is somewhat derailing from the intended question.


Please keep to the main topic.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Okay, well...I've been away for...err...a while. Sorry, I had to get some bloodwork done. Anyway, I suppose I could just restate my point to help get this thread back on-topic. It might be a bit tough, though, considering I don't actually have a point to argue at this time. I agree with a lot of what was said in the past page or two, mainly because it has very little to do with a comparison of Cloud and Zack's strength. So...I could always...summarize my viewpoint again? That might help, I suppose, provided I can actually think up a different way of summarizing it.

Well, just as a recap, probably the most prominent part of the argument that transpired here was whether or not Cloud's performance against Sephiroth during their three fights could be used as evidence of his superiority to Zack, who failed to put up a fight against him but under different circumstances. I guess that's a good place to start. I'm sorry if I fail to acknowledge something that's been said over the past couple of posts. Right now I'm just trying to get the thread back on-topic.

So, as I've said before, I can't honestly say that I think any of Cloud's fights against Sephiroth can be used to prove his superiority to Zack. This is, of course, because Sephiroth doesn't actually take him seriously in any of them. He fools around, refuses to use anything besides his swordsmanship, and doesn't take any opportunities to just kill Cloud and end the battle quickly. This is painfully obvious in all three of their encounters; admittedly less so in the second one. However, I am willing to concede that their duel in the North Crater is simply irrelevent to the topic at hand, primarily because it takes place in the Spirit Realm instead of the physical world. We really have no idea how things work there. Perhaps Cloud can use Omnislash sooner due to the sheer abundance of Spirit Energy. So I suppose that battle can't really be used here.

Of course, the other two can. Their duel in Advent Children is the one I've been focusing on the most, so I'll start there. As I've said many times over the course of this thread, Sephiroth just isn't taking Cloud seriously here. He certainly doesn't consider the guy a threat, given that he basically restricts himself to standard swordsmanship and flight. Sephiroth outright refuses to use telekinesis (directly against Cloud), intangibility, Iakiri, Octoslash, magic, Supernova, or any of his other abilities simply because he doesn't recognize Cloud as a serious opponent. He feels he can simply draw out the match as long as he likes because Cloud doesn't have a single move in his arsenal that can so much as damage him. If not for his arrogance, I can guarentee that the fight would've been over in all of one minute's time.

And yes, Sephiroth can use his telekinesis to restrain Cloud or even rip him apart. I don't see what's so hard to understand about the fact that, in the North Crater, Sephiroth's telekinetic energy was spread evenly amongst eight people. It's fundamental common sense that eight people are more difficult to restrain than a single individual. Clearly, if Sephiroth had multiple targets to restrain, he couldn't use all of his power on any one of them or else he wouldn't have had any left over to use on the rest of Crisis AVALANCHE. Naturally, this means that he would have to split up his telekinetic energy and distribute it accordingly to each of his eight targets. One power source cannot be used to its full potential on eight targets. Since Sephiroth only had one single power source, it's plain to see that Cloud only received 1/8th of his TK energy. And even then, 1/8th of Sephiroth's power was sufficient to restrain him for about one minute.

Oh, and for the record, telekinesis=/=mind control. In other words, Sephiroth's mind control and his telekinesis are two totally different abilities. Cloud was able to resist Sephiroth's mind control on his own, not his telekinesis. When Sephiroth controls Cloud's mind, what he's actually doing is manipulating the JENOVA Cells within his [Cloud's] body through the power of his own will. When he uses telekinesis, Sephiroth uses the power of his mind to physically manipulate the bodies of his targets. This is further evidenced by the fact that he's able to telekinetically manipulate the bodies of Crisis AVALANCE, most of whom didn't have JENOVA Cells. How could Sephiroth have manipulated their JENOVA Cells if they didn't have any to manipulate? Whereas Cloud can resist Sephiroth's mind control indefinitely, he simply can't do the same with his telekinesis.

Now, with that in mind, that's a very large portion of Sephiroth's abilities that he simply didn't use against Cloud. Again, I must ask these questions: Why didn't Sephiroth just restrain Cloud with telekinesis and impale him with his Masamune? Why didn't he turn intangible to avoid Cloud's sword? Why didn't he blast Cloud from a distance with magic? Why didn't he bombard Cloud with a series of Iakiri blasts? Why didn't he speedblitz Cloud with Octoslash? Finally, why didn't he use Supernova? All of these were perfectly valid options for Sephiroth to use against Cloud, yet he refused to make use of any of them. He simply swatted at Cloud with his sword. And even then, he dominated the fight.

Compare this to his fight against Zack, in which Sephiroth uses every single ability to his advantage in a furious attempt at getting the guy out of his way. Iakiri, teleportation, swordsmanship, Octoslash, it's all there. There isn't a single skill in Sephiroth's current arsenal that isn't used to take Zack out. Furthermore, he never once gives the viewer any reason to believe that he is, in fact, holding back anything, whereas it's blatantly obvious that he's holding back against Cloud. I don't see how that's difficult to realize. Sephiroth only really holds back against Cloud, anyway, because he has a personal grudge against the lowly ShinRa MP who took him out.

Spoiler

Besides, it's not like Zack has only fought against Sephiroth. His impressive feats of strength are far more numerous than Cloud's. Zack overpowers Genesis, Angeal, Bahamut, a number of other Summon Spirits, and the ShinRa army (who, need I remind you, also had air support and three members of SOLDIER to back them up). What's more, he does this all on his own. Cloud might've overpowered Yazoo and Loz, as well as Kadaj (in a separate battle), but that's about all he's really ever done without help from the rest of the team. Compare this to Zack, who has many incredible feats to his name that he accomplished without any aid from anybody. There's really no comparison, when you think about it objectively. Zack has beaten two people who are on Sephiroth's tier (note that they aren't exactly Sephiroth's equals, but they're at least in the same league. Cloud can't even say that) as well as many other amazingly powerful foes in one-on-one battles. Cloud, I'm afraid, can't say the same.

Wow, I'm disappointed in this post. >_>; I just repeated everything that I already said...Oh well, it was neccessary to get the thread on-topic.