Would YOU do it?

Hera Ledro

FFF's resident Furry novelist
Veteran
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
1,398
Location
Mars
Gil
0
This is based off of my first activity in my 22nd PSYC 2222 class.

Assume that you are a British Administrator in India. Under your supervision, a widow is condemned to be burned with her recently deceased husband. Out of respect for the man, who had been a friend of yours before his death, you go to the funeral and discover that this is going to happen. Do you stop the burning of the widow, or not? Take into account that the widow, as a strong follower of her faith, has no issues with being burned (indeed, she seems eager to see her husband on the other side), and recognizes it as a very large honour in her culture.

Do you allow it to continue, or not?

Personally, I would. It would go against almost every moral that I have, but if they were adamant on it, I would allow it to continue. Who am I to play God and say that I have better morals than them, or to prevent the woman's willful cremation?

I would, however, tell them about alternatives. If they are adamant, I let them be; it's their culture, not mine, and if I were religious I'm sure that I would be just as adamant on my values as they are in theirs.

Now, let us assume that they are not touchy on this subject, and engage you in intellectual debate. They present their argument: it's an ancient tradition in their culture, something that they've done for countless centuries.

My argument against them is that this is an argument fallacy, an appeal to tradition if you will. Just because it worked or was done in the past doesn't mean that it's the best way of going about things. If I had a record of tyranny, and it worked for me in the past, I would be inclined to continue being a tyrant. However, if somebody were to come along with a group of followers who were more faithful to her than mine were to me, then maybe fear isn't the best thing to do. If I decided to stick with tyranny because it worked for me, despite the option of a better choice, that would be an appeal to tradition.

Now, they could come at me with an argument that it is of spiritual value. Remember, neither party is seeking to disillusion or deter the other from their views, only debate for the sake of discussion.

My argument here is that we cannot prove that there is anything spiritual, and that faith is not always about logic. Sacrificing a life, which is priceless anywhere at anytime, for the suspicion that the spirit of the woman will carry on with the spirit of the man is very much like gambling. It is actually a form of Pascal's Wager, which states that you put faith in one thing, even though there could be other choices, and will make your final decision on faith when the time of judgement comes. Also, remember that we are speaking logically here; the suspicion of a soul or spirit is not strongly based. We cannot prove the existence of a spirit or soul, as they are based completely off of faith and a conception of the personality. Whether or not they are considered the personality now is of little importance; the original thought of a soul was that it was who a person was, that it was a divine existence which determined how you acted and what you would become.

Anyways, that's my argument against their tradition. I would let them keep it, whether or not it was right to me, but that's because it's a personal choice for them based on their culture. If it were something like an attempted genocide, then I wouldn't take it sitting down. There, they're putting their views above those of other people, and they aren't giving them the respect that others would give them, if given the chance.
 
Last edited:
This is based off of my first activity in my 22nd PSYC 2222 class.

Assume that you are a British Administrator in India. Under your supervision, a widow is condemned to be burned with her recently deceased husband. Out of respect for the man, who had been a friend of yours before his death, you go to the funeral and discover that this is going to happen. Do you stop the burning of the widow, or not? Take into account that the widow, as a strong follower of her faith, has no issues with being burned (indeed, she seems eager to see her husband on the other side), and recognizes it as a very large honour in her culture.

Do you allow it to continue, or not?

Well, legally, I would not allow her to do such a thing. It's completely illegal, at least in the United States: "Under the Free Exercise Clause, a law that burdens religious practice need not be justified by a compelling governmental interest if it is neutral and of general applicability." I think we can all agree that a prohibition on murder is neutral and of general applicability. Thus, even though it may be a religious rite, it is still illegal in the United States and not legally protected.

Personally, I would. It would go against almost every moral that I have, but if they were adamant on it, I would allow it to continue. Who am I to play God and say that I have better morals than them, or to prevent the woman's willful cremation?

I would, however, tell them about alternatives. If they are adamant, I let them be; it's their culture, not mine, and if I were religious I'm sure that I would be just as adamant on my values as they are in theirs.

Now, let us assume that they are not touchy on this subject, and engage you in intellectual debate. They present their argument: it's an ancient tradition in their culture, something that they've done for countless centuries.

My argument against them is that this is an argument fallacy, an appeal to tradition if you will. Just because it worked or was done in the past doesn't mean that it's the best way of going about things. If I had a record of tyranny, and it worked for me in the past, I would be inclined to continue being a tyrant. However, if somebody were to come along with a group of followers who were more faithful to her than mine were to me, then maybe fear isn't the best thing to do. If I decided to stick with tyranny because it worked for me, despite the option of a better choice, that would be an appeal to tradition.

You're going to try to use debating rules against social/cultural rites or traditions? That makes absolutely no sense. Culture (and religion) isn't necessarily about what is logical. This burning that you're talking about isn't exactly a means to an end; it's a religious tradition. I'm curious to know what a more viable option would be, seeing how none of us can speak to God. It's not as if it's empirically proven that burning a widow sends her straight to heaven. So the argument that she's appealing to tradition is void because there IS no viable or logical alternative. It's just a tradition that she believes in.

Now, they could come at me with an argument that it is of spiritual value. Remember, neither party is seeking to disillusion or deter the other from their views, only debate for the sake of discussion.

My argument here is that we cannot prove that there is anything spiritual, and that faith is not always about logic. Sacrificing a life, which is priceless anywhere at anytime, for the suspicion that the spirit of the woman will carry on with the spirit of the man is very much like gambling. It is actually a form of Pascal's Wager, which states that you put faith in one thing, even though there could be other choices, and will make your final decision on faith when the time of judgement comes. Also, remember that we are speaking logically here; the suspicion of a soul or spirit is not strongly based. We cannot prove the existence of a spirit or soul, as they are based completely off of faith and a conception of the personality. Whether or not they are considered the personality now is of little importance; the original thought of a soul was that it was who a person was, that it was a divine existence which determined how you acted and what you would become.

Anyways, that's my argument against their tradition. I would let them keep it, whether or not it was right to me, but that's because it's a personal choice for them based on their culture. If it were something like an attempted genocide, then I wouldn't take it sitting down. There, they're putting their views above those of other people, and they aren't giving them the respect that others would give them, if given the chance.

Yeah, you said it: there is no real logic in faith, so you can't really try to force your debate rules or logic into it. Because they don't belong. I personally would argue that the society probably has underlying tones of misogyny if they've been carrying out a practice like that for so long, and I'd go all feminist-bitch on them, but that's just me :monster:

Morally, I guess I'm kind of on the fence about it. They are her beliefs, and if she really wants to go through with it, I suppose she shouldn't be stopped. However, that's a human life, and I personally believe such a ceremony is just silly and completely ridiculous. But then again, those are my beliefs and not hers. I can't be all ethnocentric and force my beliefs on her. I suppose I would let her go through with it, if only because she wants to, and she truly believes in her tradition.
 
Danny the Cat said:
Assume that you are a British Administrator in India.

Well, legally, I would not allow her to do such a thing. It's completely illegal, at least in the United States: "Under the Free Exercise Clause, a law that burdens religious practice need not be justified by a compelling governmental interest if it is neutral and of general applicability." I think we can all agree that a prohibition on murder is neutral and of general applicability. Thus, even though it may be a religious rite, it is still illegal in the United States and not legally protected.

But it's in India. The United States has no jurisdiction there.

You're going to try to use debating rules against social/cultural rites or traditions? That makes absolutely no sense. Culture (and religion) isn't necessarily about what is logical. This burning that you're talking about isn't exactly a means to an end; it's a religious tradition. I'm curious to know what a more viable option would be, seeing how none of us can speak to God. It's not as if it's empirically proven that burning a widow sends her straight to heaven. So the argument that she's appealing to tradition is void because there IS no viable or logical alternative. It's just a tradition that she believes in.

True, but not all cultures and 'religions' are based off of rites and traditions. Atheism, while not really a religion, is one such example; unless you base your atheism off of superstition, then there are no traditions or rituals that go with it. Now, you can have personal rituals that help you get through your day, but those are either because of logic or superstition (the latter of which would make your atheism a sort of religion).

No, there's no 'viable' option, but there are alternatives that aren't necessarily coinciding with their beliefs. If they are fierce believers in their faith, then it's their business, and I wouldn't try to change that. However, this was all assumed as part of a friendly discussion, as opposed to a debate being done to change their views.

Yeah, you said it: there is no real logic in faith, so you can't really try to force your debate rules or logic into it. Because they don't belong. I personally would argue that the society probably has underlying tones of misogyny if they've been carrying out a practice like that for so long, and I'd go all feminist-bitch on them, but that's just me :monster:

No, I couldn't force debate rules, but I could let them know why it isn't really 'clicking', if you will, into my head, and that it doesn't seem morally correct. Now, I could feel so strongly against death that I would argue them until I were blue in the face, but that's not what I'm really doing. I'm pointing out their fallacies (which religion and culture is often riddled with), and showing them that their choice may not be the most productive.

Like you said, there's no real logic in faith, but that's only if they are very strong followers. If they are followers, but govern their general lifestyle by logic, then maybe what I say can have an impact. I won't force them to believe in my views, I'll give them the option and leave it at that.
 
I don't know what I'd do. I'd want to do the right thing ofcourse but I wouldn't know what that was. I couldn't exactly stop her, as I wouldn't have any real reasoning behind it. For all I know there could be an afterlife and by cremating the widow her soul would be reunited with her husband's. There's as much chance of that happening than any conclusion I could offer, because the fact is that nobody knows what happens when we die, much less me.

I think I would just have to let her go through with it, if it was what she really wanted. Who am I to say what's right for her when I personally haven't a clue?
 
In all honesty, it goes against MY faith and beliefs to let that woman die. But, it is HER faith and belif that she should be burned. So, i would respect their beliefs, as hard as it would be. If i want people to respect my faith I need to be willing to accept other faiths. Now, if the woman was being forced to do it against her will, then yes, i would do something
 
As I am not a follower of any faith (or spirituality for that matter), my qualms would not be determined under religious morality, but more so along the lines of burning a woman to death... However, as she seems quite adamant about upholding tradition, I would respect her wishes and her faith and gratify this request.
 
I'm actually wondering, but did you get that scenario from Around the World in 80 Days? I read that book recently, and there was a part in it where they see this girl being dragged off to be burned in India, and the British there didn't do anything about it. (Except in it,
they save her and she ends up living with the protagonist.
)

To force a person who has no will to live to live is probably worse than death. So I would not stop her.
 
Back
Top