which Cloud Pairing do you Support???

[Franki-Chan]

With materials like Last Order and, Dirge of Cerberus and the Case of Tifa its obvious to see they've built the romance around Cloud and Tifa and with the release of Crisis Core, it looks like they aiming for a clear display of Zerith. In honest opinion it looked like Aerith was a huddle that Tifa had to over come before realizing how much she loved Cloud. Aerith sole purpose in the game was to stop meteor and be another tragic lost in Cloud's life.

 

[Mista]

Alright. Here I go...

I'm a definite fan of Cloti. I do believe that Cloud and Aeris did share a kind of love that was evidently profound, heightened by the direness of their lives, however I don't believe they were meant to be.

The best way for me to describe it is the show the two relationships as analogous to the romantic struggles of the Everyman.

Because Cloud is just your average everyday man living in an average everyday world, right? Not really.

Aeris represents first loves, high school romances, puppy love. The love she shares with Cloud is fraught with a certain passion, however also a definite innocence. Even after it's long gone, the Everyman will look back on the first love with tenderness, or alternatively will dwell upon it in the fashion that Cloud dwells upon his inability to save Aeris.

On the other hand, Tifa represents love actually. Her love that she offers Cloud is more mature, offering herself in a way that is grounded much more in reality than the airy love that Aeris offered.

Pure opinion. I could turn around and say that Aeris' love is more mature. And since this ISN'T your everyman story, Cloud sees Aeris even though she's dead. It's not like he's thinking about his past with her. He actually sees her. And it doesn't stop there; she helps him. She saves the world through lifestream in FFVII and cures his geostigma in AC. She's done more for him than a wife ever could. Or at least more than Tifa ever could. Fact.

One could also alternately say that the two represent different stages of love; Aeris represents the love shared with a girlfriend and Tifa represents the loved shared with a wife.

Such views are supported by the events in the game in which Aeris dies, while Tifa remains and takes care of Cloud. Puppy love must fade, despite the fact that it holds a passion unlike anything else, however when love has matured, it has the ability to fulfill the soul in a way that puppy love can't comprehend.

Mmmm... First, Cloud was never stated to be with Tifa nor did he do anything to suggest their relationship from FFVII elevated any further than friends.

Second, if Tifa had the ability to fill up Cloud's soul, why was he devoid of happiness throughout the entirety of Advent Children until he started to see Aeris. In fact, Tifa actually took the back row for the whole movie. Never once did she do anything to deepen the plot.

But, oh yeah... She was decided to be in the movie AFTER the first script and planning stages were finished. But that shouldn't matter anyways, she wasn't even planned on being in the original FFVII either. The main cast was supposed to be Aeris, Cloud and Barret. Fact.

As characters, both couples are compatible. However, in prospect of the long term, it seems more likely for Cloud and Tifa to survive, but that's just my opinion.

Not to mention the fact that Cloud probably isn't into necrophilia.

Mhmm... necrophilia. Nice one. Haven't heard that before from a Cloti. =P

if the big story of the game was their romance she wouldn't have been killed off.

Quote time. This one is from Tetsuya Nomura in Distance from the Advent Children DVD.

"... but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories, we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they're dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud, he sees Aerith several times during the film. It's not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him."

Even in the manual it says Aerith wanted to get involved in the "deepening love triangle" just like a typical girl who likes to know shes the prettiest, she hardly LOVED Cloud,

And in the manual it also says that Cloud is an Ex-SOLDIER. was that True or False?

With materials like Last Order and, Dirge of Cerberus and the Case of Tifa its obvious to see they've built the romance around Cloud and Tifa and with the release of Crisis Core, it looks like they aiming for a clear display of Zerith. In honest opinion it looked like Aerith was a huddle that Tifa had to over come before realizing how much she loved Cloud. Aerith sole purpose in the game was to stop meteor and be another tragic lost in Cloud's life.

Haha. So funny how you can mention Last Order a tiny smidgen on what FFVII was. Dirge of Cerberus, a spinoff game that contains NO Cloti evidence(not to mention has Vincent as lead) and Case of Tifa, where, for the most part, Cloud was hiding out in Aeris' church. You should add in Ehrgiez in that list too, while you're at it.

Oh it's also funny how you could leave out Final Fantasy Tactics, where Cloud was searching for Aeris, Kingdom Hearts, or Maiden who travels the Planet.

And just for those wondering about KH.

Question: Okay then, so the person who Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?
Nomura: Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought.

 

[eisprinz]

And I thought I'd be able to avoid this argument...

Because Cloud is just your average everyday man living in an average everyday world, right? Not really.

Well, obviously he isn't. But nearly every epic can be broken down as allegory. The hero typically represents the Everyman, while the adventure represents a life struggle.

As the rest of my post was about allegory, I thought it would've been clear that I'm not talking about the plot in an exclusively literal fashion.

Pure opinion. I could turn around and say that Aeris' love is more mature.

Then do it. It would've made your argument stronger if you did it, instead of just saying that you could.

And there's also the fact that while I believe Cloud ought to end up with Tifa, I still like listening to the point of view of Cleris fans.

And since this ISN'T your everyman story,

Again, yes it is. Allegory.

Cloud sees Aeris even though she's dead. It's not like he's thinking about his past with her. He actually sees her. And it doesn't stop there; she helps him. She saves the world through lifestream in FFVII and cures his geostigma in AC. She's done more for him than a wife ever could. Or at least more than Tifa ever could. Fact.

True, Aeris is more powerful than Tifa, perhaps more powerful that anything living on the Planet for that matter! That could be used as evidence for both camps, though.

The Cleris take: Her extraordinary power allows love to go past the boundaries of life and death. She cares for him in way that no other can do, and as such is most befitting for his love.

The Cloti take: The task of turning Aeris into a demi-god further distances herself away from Cloud rather than causing them to get closer. She has been put on a Messianic stratum, thus making her unavailable for romantic ties with the living due to the nature of her sacrifice (i.e. the same archetype we see in Mary Magdalene and Christ). In basic terms, while Cloud may be the greatest warrior on the Planet, he is still human. Aeris is not.

Mmmm... First, Cloud was never stated to be with Tifa nor did he do anything to suggest their relationship from FFVII elevated any further than friends.

Second, if Tifa had the ability to fill up Cloud's soul, why was he devoid of happiness throughout the entirety of Advent Children until he started to see Aeris. In fact, Tifa actually took the back row for the whole movie. Never once did she do anything to deepen the plot.

One of the biggest points of Case of Tifa and Advent Children was to show that Cloud's pining over Aeris is a stagnancy. He is stuck. And he wants to be reached and wants to reach out, but he feels chained down by his grief. This is well illustrated in the exchange regarding his cell-phone: he wants the ability to connect with others, but finds himself unable to go through with it.

He is happy at the end because he realizes that Aeris will be with him, even in death. But that doesn't mean he is still considering her his primary romantic goal.

As I said with the first wife analogy, he can learn to love Aeris as someone who has passed into a realm where he can't reach her (just because he sees her once in a while, doesn't mean that he can fully love her).

Again, I reiterate that Cloud is allegorically the Everyman. And think of how a person deals with a spouse or loved one passing on; they come to realize that the dead person still remains in their heart and is loved (corresponds with Aeris' consciousness remaining with Cloud and being literally visible at times), and accept that the best they can do is to accept that the dead can still be there for them, though not in every way one wishes they could remain (Cloud at the end of AC saying that he's not alone).

But, oh yeah... She was decided to be in the movie AFTER the first script and planning stages were finished. But that shouldn't matter anyways, she wasn't even planned on being in the original FFVII either. The main cast was supposed to be Aeris, Cloud and Barret. Fact.

Frankly speaking then, Cloud and Barret might have been the original couple.

But it doesn't matter, because they changed it.

They might have originally ended with Cloud and Aeris living in a house with a white picket fence. But they changed it.

The big change was created when they decided Aeris would die. So they created Tifa; originally they just wanted to make a piece of eye-candy, I think. But since then, she has been integrated well into the plot and into Cloud's life.

So it doesn't matter if she wasn't originally meant to be Cloud's girlfriend/lover/whatever. She was created, and as such, the potential is there.

And as for the movie - I might accept the fact that Aeris and Cloud are meant to be a couple if Advent Children were a romance movie, and those two were the main characters. But it's not. If Advent Children as it is now only contained Aeris and Cloud, I still wouldn't be convinced.

The movie is more about grief and guilt than it is about love, so Aeris playing such a major role doesn't really prove much.

Mhmm... necrophilia. Nice one. Haven't heard that before from a Cloti. =P

Haha, there was actually one satire I read, which lampooned Aeris Resurrection Fics. It all went as usual - Cloud goes to the Forgotten Capital and does some cheesy thing like praying or singing or tossing a flower into the water. And Aeris emerged from the water.

Except in the satire, she's a decomposing zombie.




... I just realized that I'm freakin' arguing about Tifa vs. Aeris. No matter how smart we try to sound, it's still a damn shipping war. I... I'm gonna stop.


...I feel dirty.

 

[Dark-Angel]

I think clephiroth. woot. no reason particuarly i just like the sound of it. just imagine

 

[Inorganic]

Because Cloud is just your average everyday man living in an average everyday world, right? Not really.

And this means what?
The genre of fantasy does not seek alienate itself from human emotions or experiences. Lose that and any story will fail. After all, they will be read/seen/played by humans, and unless your audience can relate, they are not going to care.

This "Cloud is in a different world" idea is irrelevant. Relationships have to make sense and usually adhere to everyday human emotions and experiences.

Cloud sees Aeris even though she's dead

As does Marlene, Kadaj, the kids at the church and all of AVALANCHE at the end of the game. You point?

She's done more for him than a wife ever could. Or at least more than Tifa ever could. Fact.

Yet in all the help she’s offered (not only to Cloud, but others too. After all, Maiden itself states that everyone dead helped her save the Planet. Give credit where it’s due, please) she’s never made Cloud feel as if he could live. He never felt confident around Aeris. He says he can only live and be happy by Tifa’s side. He promises to be forever with Tifa, not Aeris. He thinks everything’s going to be alright because Tifa is by his side. When has he said this to Aeris?

His heart called out to Tifa in the Lifestream and hers called to him. Aeris tried, but could not contact him. Aeris, an Ancient who can manipulate the Lifestream, was not able to reach Cloud’s heart. Tifa did. Even Zack says it was only Tifa that could have helped him, no one else.

First, Cloud was never stated to be with Tifa nor did he do anything to suggest their relationship from FFVII elevated any further than friends.

He sleeps with her in a highly suggestive scene (in all versions, no matter what you do) and Tifa is embarrassed the next morning. He discusses forever with her and says that only by her can he truly be happy. He lives with her, raises children with her and blushes around her. He refers to memories of Tifa as "tender memories and secret wishes no one can ever know." He continually singles her out, apologizing to her especially and saying that "no matter what anyone else says to me, it’s only Tifa’s attitude that matters."

He only hears Tifa, in his heart, not Aeris (even though she tries and is an ancient). In his mind, Tifa is predominant, as indicated by the Lifestream sequence. Not only did Cloud wish for her affection when he was little, but he makes it clear that it’s the same in adulthood when he says that present Cloud "would be so happy" to know of Tifa’s feelings. And this is barely scratching the surface.

In addition to this, we have the staff saying Cloud and Tifa were made to compliment each other and that they took a lot of time and effort so that they did, in AC. They describe Tifa as his romantic partner in Reunion files and choose to relegate Aeris to a mother figure, not only to Cloud, but the rest as well. Even in Advent Children, it is Tifa and Cloud’s conversation that is emphasized the most. It is by far the longest and it is the one that keeps flashing in Cloud’s mind as he’s driving to the forgotten capital (even though he has one conversation with Aeris as well). Not only does Aeris barely get 20 seconds of screentime, half of it is shared with her first love, Zack. To further emphasize her motherly presence, Aeris refers to Cloud as an overgrown child she doesn’t want in her playful banter with said first love.

if Tifa had the ability to fill up Cloud's soul, why was he devoid of happiness throughout the entirety of Advent Children until he started to see Aeris.

That’s a pretty bold statement. I hope you can back it up. Especially when Cloud is still moping even after finally talking to Aeris.

In fact, Tifa actually took the back row for the whole movie.

The only thing that is a fact is that the three main charas were Cloud/Tifa/Kadaj, Tifa was second billed right after Cloud and she had the most screen time next to Cloud/Kadaj. In addition to Advent Children being made specifically to tell the story of Cloud and Tifa, that is. Aeris was there for barely 20 seconds and was a supporting character like the rest, as indicated by her measly one page in the RF, same as Zack and right next to Zack’s.

But, oh yeah... She was decided to be in the movie AFTER the first script and planning stages were finished. But that shouldn't matter anyways, she wasn't even planned on being in the original FFVII either. The main cast was supposed to be Aeris, Cloud and Barret. Fact.

Tifa? Stop making things up, please.
Actually, Advent Children started as nothing but a " beautiful drama" (as described by Kitase, I believe) starring only Cloud, Tifa and a few kids. No one else. No Aeris. Everyone else was added later.

As for the original FFVII...Tifa was added later, that’s true. Right after Nomura said he would kill Aeris and bring in Tifa. Your point?

Quote time. This one is from Tetsuya Nomura in Distance from the Advent Children DVD.

"... but in Advent Children, rather than focusing on memories, we wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea. Even if they're dead, their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud, he sees Aerith several times during the film. It's not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness lives on inside him."

Right. Which explains why people are able to see the dead. Notice how he uses plural: "even if they’re dead, their consciousness...." blah blah blah. He gives an example of this, telling you how Cloud is able to see Aeris. He sees her for the same reason everyone else does, including the kids: because the consciousness of the dead lives on in the living (plural: all living). This idea isn’t new in FFVII. One of the staff members lost his grandmother and didn't want to believe that they are completely gone, but that they live on inside the living. So it was worked it into the story.
Cloud isn’t special.

So funny how you can mention Last Order a tiny smidgen on what FFVII was.

Yes, but this tiny smidgen of what FFVII was had added scenes which the creators wanted the fans to see, and had scenes which went against the original, but the staff stated it was the interpretation of events that they chose to go with. Yes, they’d like us to see Cloud caressing Tifa’s cheek even though it’s an unnecessary addition. I wonder why they feel this way.

It’s too bad they didn’t create an OVA where Cloud does the same to a wounded Aeris. Oops. Bad SE!

a spinoff game that contains NO Cloti evidence

Because it is not Cloud’s story. Cloud & Tifa’s story is finalized in Advent Children. This is Vincent’s game. There is also nothing pro-Cloud/Aeris. Again, you point?

Oh it's also funny how you could leave out Final Fantasy Tactics, where Cloud was searching for Aeris, Kingdom Hearts, or Maiden who travels the Planet.

Because Tactics and KH are AU games, having nothing to do with the Compilation. They aren’t canon material, so they do not go in the same sack as Last Order, or Case of Tifa, or Maiden where Aeris is jealous of Tifa, or the movie and games.

Now that we’ve clarified this, let’s move on.

Question: Okay then, so the person who Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?
Nomura: Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so that you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought.

And? This is supposed to show me what? All it says is that if you want to think Aeris was the one he was searching for, you can go ahead. Nomura isn’t going to spoonfeed you.

In fact, SE has recently revealed the answer to that question: The only person Cloud was looking for was Sephiroth. In case you didn’t get it in KH:FM. Not Aeris, sorry.

 

[GunbladeGirl]

Inorganic...that was very helpful! But still, I support Cloud and Aeris.

 

[einlanzer]

Im so glad you used the word Koibito, because here i have a quote that completely destroys it and all of Cloud and Tifas romantic progression during the game. its quite long though, so settle down and prepare for a read



So there you have it, the definative Anti-Cloti post. This post answers any of the Cloti evidence already posted in this thread and more of the more common Cloti proof. Which is why im happy with my position as a Clerith - because everything can be disprooved - both Clerith proof and Cloti proof. none is canon, none is shown properly without some way to destroy it and thats how it shall forever remain.

LOL, that post doesn't destroy a thing. I won't respond to the whole thing in one post, if that's what you're looking for, because it's too long. But we can do this piecemeal. You go ahead and point out which part "destroys" koibito and I'll be more than happy to address it.

 

[Serah]

As my first act of being back on staff, I shall close this thread and place it where it belongs.