Vincent Vs Cloud who is more powerful

Vincent Vs Cloud, who is stronger

  • Vincent

    Votes: 48 39.3%

  • Cloud

    Votes: 74 60.7%
  • Total voters
    122
I still somewhat doubt Cloud would keep up with Vincent.
Even if Omnislash did hit Vincent he'd just turn into Chaos and whoop Cloud. Sorry Cloud fans but Vincent would win anyday.
He's just too quick. Cloud has got the strength I must say.. and people argue "Cloud has killed Sephiroth how many times? and Vincent? Oh yeh.. None." but us Vincent fans could simply reply... "Vincent has killed Omega and let me remind you... it was going to destroy the world how many times has Cloud done this?"

But being fair, I've looked back on it and I've come to a conclusion that Cloud and Vincent would be around the same and probably most likely end up in a draw/tie.
Being a Cloud fan aswell as a Vincent fan myself.

I'm going to leave it at that simply, even though there is so much to add.

- Vincent & Cloud.
 
Vincent gets his Chaos Form for the same reason Cloud gets his Mako and JENOVA Cell enhancements; it's a part of him. Besides, the way versus topics generally work is that we take both characters in their strongest incarnations and pit them against one another in a one-on-one duel that is biased against neither one in-particular. I'm not sure why it'd be fair to take Chaos away from Vincent, considering it's a power that he can call upon at any given moment. Yes, Chaos is a separate entity from Vincent, but that doesn't change the fact that his power was at Vincent's disposal so long as he had the Protomateria on him. If we take Chaos away from Vincent, we might as well take away the Mako and JENOVA Cells from Cloud, meaning it would be a ShinRa MP with a huge sword against Vincent, who was still superhuman due to Hojo's experiments. Of course, even if we take those away, Vincent is still a highly trained Turk who probably has a great deal of combat experience, even if that wasn't what the Turks were specifically trained for.

In other words, whether we take both of them in their weakest forms or both of them in their strongest forms, Vincent wins. If we take AC Cloud and put him against Base Vincent (or any form of Vincent without an Awakened Chaos at his disposal), it'd be a much better fight that I wager Cloud would come out of as the victor. However, other than that, the only way Cloud could win is if we gave him an unfair handicap, such as leaving him with all of his enhancements but taking away Vincent's, or leaving Cloud untouched but stripping Vincent of Chaos.
 
And yet we only see chaos vincent as a limit break in FF7, and at the end of DoC.

If Vincent is always Chaos, then we may as well say Cloud can do an Omni-Slash all the time, when even AC showed that he can't.
 
Yeah, except that DoC showed that Vincent is, with the Protomateria, more than capable of controling Chaos. That means that Vincent can call on Chaos whenever he wants, at any given moment. We even see him turn into Chaos Vincent at a time where he's not in any sort of combat situation. Cloud, however, has never been shown to use Omnislash under normal circumstances. He needs to be in a pretty extreme situation, such as a one-on-one duel against Sephiroth, and even then, it took him literally hours to charge up the neccessary spirit energy to use the attack. This, remember, was in Advent Children, so we now know for a fact that, as far as storyline is concerned, Cloud's Limit Breaks take significant time to use, with the possible exceptions of low-level techniques like Braver or Blade Beam, which are either pretty close to normal attacks (Braver just involves Cloud leaping into the air and swinging down with his sword REALLY hard, so...) or somewhat basic (Blade Beam is a beam...shot from Cloud's blade. Doesn't sound too complicated). However, Vincent can call upon Chaos whenever he wants.
 
Then why does Vincent not use Chaos at all times? The protomateria is just another enhancement, and a base Vincent from FF7 along with a base Cloud, or even DoC Vincent with no Protomateria and AC Cloud is a much more balanced fight.
 
Yeah, but it isn't really a matter of balance, it's a matter of taking both characters at their strongest incarnations and pitting them against each other in a neutral, one-on-one battle. If we had to attempt to make the fight balanced by giving one character a handicap, it wouldn't really be much of a versus topic. The Protomateria is a piece of equipment that's pretty much exclusive to Vincent, as is Chaos. It's no different than Cloud carrying a sword, which is also a piece of equipment. By your logic, both characters should be going at it in hand-to-hand combat, stripped of all their enhancements and equipment. Furthermore, Vincent doesn't use Chaos all the time because I don't think he actually acquired the Protomateria until around the end of the game. After that, he used Chaos whenever he needed it. Chaos is a legitimate skill of Vincent's, and the Protomateria is something he has at his disposal.

Yes, Vincent without an Awakened Chaos would probably be a fairer match for Cloud, but that's really not the point of a Versus Topic. The idea is taking both characters at their strongest and putting them against one another. If it was specified that we were putting FF7 Cloud against FF7 Vincent, then I'd be able to see your point, but it simply says...well, Vincent vs. Cloud, so whatever either of them have available is fair game in this topic. I know that Cloud would probably defeat Vincent if we take Chaos or even just Awakened Chaos out of the equation. However, there's really no logical reason to not take Chaos Vincent into consideration.
 
The_Oathkeeper said:
Yeah, but it isn't really a matter of balance, it's a matter of taking both characters at their strongest incarnations and pitting them against each other in a neutral, one-on-one battle. If we had to attempt to make the fight balanced by giving one character a handicap, it wouldn't really be much of a versus topic. The Protomateria is a piece of equipment that's pretty much exclusive to Vincent, as is Chaos. It's no different than Cloud carrying a sword, which is also a piece of equipment. By your logic, both characters should be going at it in hand-to-hand combat, stripped of all their enhancements and equipment. Furthermore, Vincent doesn't use Chaos all the time because I don't think he actually acquired the Protomateria until around the end of the game. After that, he used Chaos whenever he needed it. Chaos is a legitimate skill of Vincent's, and the Protomateria is something he has at his disposal.

Yes, Vincent without an Awakened Chaos would probably be a fairer match for Cloud, but that's really not the point of a Versus Topic. The idea is taking both characters at their strongest and putting them against one another. If it was specified that we were putting FF7 Cloud against FF7 Vincent, then I'd be able to see your point, but it simply says...well, Vincent vs. Cloud, so whatever either of them have available is fair game in this topic. I know that Cloud would probably defeat Vincent if we take Chaos or even just Awakened Chaos out of the equation. However, there's really no logical reason to not take Chaos Vincent into consideration.
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Then we may as well say that Cloud is level 99 with all Materia mastered, when one could assume AC Cloud is about equal to level 50 FF7 Cloud. The protomateria is just another power up for Vincent, whether or not we see it in the plot.
 
Gameplay mechanics are, first of all, completely irrelevent, and the Protomateria is not a gameplay mechanic. It's directly referred to in the storyline, which means that it's not "just another powerup". Rather, it's a powerup that, according to in-game canon, Vincent has at his disposal. Whether or not we see it as "plot-relevant" makes a huge difference, mainly because items and powerups mentioned in the plot are canon, whereas those not mentioned in the plot (or in any official sources) are not canon. For example, Mako enhancements are canon to the storyline and are canonically at Cloud's disposal, whereas a mastered Knights of the Round materia is not canon to the storyline because it was never even mentioned in the storyline. The Protomateria is one such storyline item. Vincent canonically received it, and he canonically had it at his disposal. By that logic, I should be able to say that Mako and J-Cell enhancements are "just another powerup" for Cloud.

Besides, whether you take into consideration the Protomateria or not, Vincent has displayed the ability to use Chaos on-command, or at least in situations where he's not in any immediate danger. To say the least, he can use it MUCH quicker than Cloud can use Omnislash.
 
It doesn't matter if we see Protomateria in the story. We see Cloud's party members. How about Barret and Cid are fighting with him? The protomateria is an enhancement, just like any other materia, and is not an actual part if his body. That they can use their swords or guns, and wear a bit of armour is a given, but any enhancement beyond that is a handicap. We see materia in story sequences, omnislash and limits, too. Maybe Cloud already has this "Spirit Energy". It's just another enhancement, and while Zidane can trance naturally, or Terra can morph naturally, but the protomateria should be filed under an enhancement, just like starting with the "Spirit Energy" to use OmniSlash.
 
The Protomateria may be an enhancement, but it's an enhancement that Vincent has at his disposal and can readily use at any given moment to turn into Chaos. The Protomateria is no more an "enhancement" than Cloud's sword or Vincent's gun. It's a piece of equipment that, according to the storyline, Vincent canonically has. It's different from other, regular Materia in the sense that we see Vincent receive it, we know exactly what it does, and we know that Vincent can use it whenever he pleases. It's nothing like the Spirit Energy needed to use Omnislash because we know for a fact that Vincent can use it at any given moment. We've seen it, just like we've seen Cloud taking hours upon hours to build up the Spirit Energy for an Omnislash. Hell, Spirit Energy isn't even an enhancement, it's just something that needs to be accumulated over the course of the battle. However, Vincent can bypass that because he was given the Protomateria. It is an item exclusive to Vincent. We know that Vincent has the Protomateria at his disposal, so based on that, we know that he can use Chaos whenever he wants to.
 
What difference does that make? We rarely see Cloud use Omnislash. In fact, there's only one canonical use of the technique on Cloud's part in the entirety of the compilation, and one canonical use of Omnislash v5 in Advent Children. By your logic, we shouldn't let Cloud have Omnislash. It doesn't matter at all when Vincent obtained the Protomateria. The point is that he did obtain it, meaning he has it at his disposal. In the same way that Cloud never uses Omnislash until the end of the movie/game, Sonic never turns into Super Sonic until it's time to fight the final boss, and Sora won't get Final Form until after he beats Roxas. Vincent has the Protomateria at his disposal. It doesn't matter at all how often we see him use it. The point is that we see him use it. It's something his character has in his possession that is at his disposal.
 
We see canonical use of materia, however, as well. Yet the debates are supposed to not include any of these enhancements tipping the scales.

Actually, I think Vincent would still win, because Cloud's only ever takena bulllet to the arm. Vincent could probably take him down with a shot to the heart or head.
 
Yes, we have seen canonical use of Materia, but we've never seen exactly which Materia Cloud has at his disposal, with the exceptions of I believe Thunder and Ice, which Cloud had at the beginning of the game and neither of which would be very useful against Chaos Vincent. The Protomateria is different from the vast majority of other Materia in that we know for a fact that Vincent has it, and that the powers it grants him are unique to him (or whoever is currently the host of Chaos, anyway). Whereas most Materia could easily be written off as not-necessarily-canon and mere gameplay mechanics, the Protomateria was visibly created within the confines of the storyline for the sole purpose of letting Vincent control Chaos and given to him directly. It's not another enhancement. We know that Cloud had some Materia, but we don't know which Materia he had, so we can't use them in this versus topic. Furthermore, any Materia collected over the course of the game (because I have no doubt that a large amount of Materia was collected) was the property of the entire team rather than exclusively Cloud's. The Protomateria, however, is one of Vincent's possessions. It belongs only to him, and we know for a fact that he has it.

However, without Chaos, Vincent would not win...or at least he doesn't have a very good chance of winning. It's true that a few bullets would do Cloud in, but the same can be said for pretty much every human in the Final Fantasy universe. By that logic, one good slash from Cloud's sword would easily kill Vincent. Under normal circumstances, guns>swords, but Cloud has shown himself capable of easily deflecting bullets. He even managed to deflect bullets from two quick/speedy opponents, so I doubt he would have much trouble closing the distance between himself and Vincent, considering he would only have one person to keep up with. Since Vincent specializes primarily in long-range combat or at least uses a long-range weapon, once Cloud manages to close the gap between the two, he shouldn't have much trouble offing Vincent. He's just never had much trouble with people using handguns.
 
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