Some Theories/Speculation on Sorceresses

[Fusionist]

Some Speculations on Sorceresses

(I haven't looked through this section, so if there's already a thread on this particular subject, then feel free to close, or at least join this thread ^^)

Okay, before I start, let me say this very clearly:

THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT THE TIME LINE THEORIES OR IF ULTIMECIA AND RINOA ARE THE SAME PERSON, OR ORIGINS OF POWER!!!

Alright, we can all agree that some aspects of FFVIII leaves gamers with some unanswered questions despite not having anything directly to do with the gameplay, or even arguably with the story.

However, we still wonder, and so have I.

Anyways, here's a few things that I thought a little bit about.

I'll admit now that unless someone from Square can give us some explanations, these are just educated guesses I making here.

Sorceresses are unable to conceive a child
So, did anyone ever wonder why Edea and Cid never had children of their own? Simple answer could be that they had their hands full with the orphan edge, but what if it was something else?

Adel had Ellone kidnapped because she was looking for an heir she could train and pass her powers onto when she needed to, but as brash as this sounds, couldn't Adel just have her own child and raise them with her own ideals and pass her powers onto them?

Perhaps it's the fact that holding in this sorcery power would actually all together destroy an microscopic beginnings of a child before they can fully develop.

When a Sorceress takes in the power, we assume there are no ill affects to their body, but when we see Edea, there are literal veins running along her eyes that don't seem natural.

However, a Sorceress' body would eventually adjust if their mind hadn't succumbed to madness that is anchored via a Knight. But then, what about foreign organism that wasn't present when the powers were received?

A somewhat odd theory, but it can't be coincidence that no Sorceresses ever had children.

***Also a an extended speculation: If a pregnant woman accepted the powers for a Sorceress, could the powers go to their unborn child then?***

Sorceresses can not die unless they pass on their powers
We all know that when Ultimecia was dying, she traveled through time and gave her powers to Edea.

However, let us quickly review:

Ultimecia's goal was to be the only being in existence (still don't know why that is; was a loner maybe ) so passing on her powers wouldn't be in her plans.

Therefore the reason she did it was because she was dying, which she didn't plan on doing.

But, if holding onto her powers would keep her alive, then why give it up?

What I think is that when a Sorceress has physically been injured to the brink of death, it's a matter of ending their suffering; it's an understandable notion that people want to die without pain, right? And the amount of pain that was inflcited on her person probably wasn't worth the lengthy recovery time.

Sorceresses don't need to be female
Never mind mind that the word "Sorceress" is meant for females, but whose to say that a male couldn't accept the powers of a Sorceress and become a Sorcerer himself?

What is it about a woman that makes it so that a man wouldn't be able to take in the sorcery powers himself?

I mean, supposedly the god Hyne was the origin of Sorcery (Hyne's Descendant being what Sorceresses are sometimes referred to), and he was male, right?

I've read some fanfiction where kid-Squall hadn't run that far when Edea was chasing him and Ultimecia showed up, and he ended up receiving Ultimecia's power instead of Edea

Yeah, not the most well thought speculations, but just some things I was thinking about

 

[Hippie Kev]

One of the great things about any of the Final Fantasy titles is that the stories often very thought provoking. There are definitely a lot of aspects to all the games that are never completely explained and it's these loose ends that keep us connected to the games through our pondering on their possible explanations.

Great ideas there, they seem plausible enough. I would've loved more in-game explanation about the dynamics of time and sorceress lineages but it would've ended in a game that was too long winded and complex!

 

[Gabranth]

I agree with the fact that Sorceresses have to pass on their powers in order to die. This can be proved correct because Edea herself says so just before Ultimecia passes on her powers.

However, I don't think that was Ultimecia's only goal. She wanted to destroy all Seeds because she found out that they would ultimately end her. However, when she tried to stop it by compressing time, she was in actual fact, killing herself.

 

[eisprinz]

The notion of sorceresses being unable to bear children seems a bit too generalizing. We only really see three sorceresses' lives out of the multitude that have existed in the FFVIII world. So just because these three don't happen to be preggers doesn't make it much of an absolute in my opinion.

In consideration of Edea getting those markings around her eyes - I took it to be elaborate make-up work rather than actual veins. But I suppose they might as well be some strange physical effect due to Ultimecia; one could make the same argument for why she has weird claw-like fingers. The only question is whether it's all actual or artifice.

I would venture to say that if indeed Edea got transformed physically, it would be due to her possession rather than the sorceress powers themselves. Note that in the children's memories of Edea during the Trabia Garden remember-fest, she looks pretty normal. The only sorceresses that look strange are post-possession Edea, Adel, and Ultimecia. It could be a case of sorceresses becoming warped after attaining certain levels of power. Therefore, Edea was normal initially but becomes warped either by being possessed by a physically transformed sorceress, or by being forced to attain that level of power during her possession.

This would explain why Rinoa hasn't undergone any transformation. Of course, it could also be said that she hasn't had the time to develop any physical traits as effects of magical power.

As for the gender of sorceresses - it's not farfetched to think that there could potentially be males. But it does make one wonder then, why is there a tradition of powers being transferred seemingly exclusively to females? In all references, the magic users are female (the four known sorceresses Rinoa, Edea, Adel, and Ultimecia; the stories and folktales regarding sorceresses that you hear from NPCs; as well as the countless sorceresses you fight while entering time compression).

Hyne's gender seems a bit dubious to me. He is referred to as a god, and the male pronoun is used - but that's in the English version. I'm not sure, but I think they used a neutral pronoun in the Japanese version, and in English, masculine is considered the closest to neutral. In any case, in the info sections of the game, it specifically names sorceresses as female - on the other hand, it calls Hyne the First Sorceress, which further bungles up the notion of gender and magic.

 

[strifehart]

as far as gender and magic go, adel is male. i know they called him "sorceress adel" but the graphics were all indicitive of a male. i recommend watching the video. there's plenty of em on youtube.

 

[Vent]

^ Not necessarily.

Personally I find the Sorceress powers to mutate people while those powers are being used. For example, Adel took over a nation, meaning she most likely used an extreme amount of the Sorceress power and using it constantly. Ultimecia most likely used her powers a lot in the future, killing the seeds and whatnot. However, it has been stated that Edea did not like the idea that she was a sorceress; thus not using it. Edea took on the Sorceress powers at age 5, and we she her as a normal woman when we saw the scene with her Ultimecia and Squall. She looked to grow up normally. However, when Ultimecia took over her mind she started using her Sorceress powers along with Ulty's, and that where we get the mutated Edea. However...

I just had a thought. Maybe all the sorceresses mutate over time while containing the power. It seems like Rinoa gets angel wings, Ulty got black wings, horns, claws...everything, and Adel got Buff, really Buff, hell she might have turned into a man. So where am I going with this? Edea's mutation probably isn't drastic, but maybe her mutation is to stunt aging. That or she is just so beautiful that her looks are timeless. I've always though Cid was a bit older for her, but maybe once upon a time Cid was actually handsome and Edea just didn't age anymore (Sorceress mutation).

I think the sorceresses can give birth, well up until they mutate to far into non-human territory. And we only get to see 4 sorceresses. I doubt that Rinoa would want to get Preggo then, Ulty just doesn't seem to be the mothering type, I could see her eat her child, Adel, well if Adel's Sorceress mutation did turn her into a man well there's your answer, probably due to the drastic transformation due to her body (same goes for Ulty). Edea may just be unlucky =(. Also, just to let everyone know. Edea got her sorceress power from her Grandmother. Her grandmother gave birth to Edea's mother... that may answer some things.

As for the Female only thing. I've never really delved into the origins of the Sorceress, i just simplay assumed that it was female and always female. It may have the connection to the witches (Salem with trials, etc etc...)

 

[der Astronom]

I asked this question about Adel's gender on another forum, and somebody told me that the sorceress' on powers deform them. So it would explain why Adel looks like a guy. If she really were a he, then the game wouldn't consistently refer to her as a "she" in the female indefinite pronoun. She just looks that way.

 

[Takk]

I knew a girl back in Junior High who looked more like a guy than Adel does... just saying.

 

[Krysta]

The Sorceresses are always female. Here's a partly translation of the ultimania book on FFVIII:

Said to have existed from time immemorial to the present day, the sorceresses are women who are said to have received their powers from the old god, Hyne. There is, however, no hard evidence to support this claim. Extraordinarily powerful, many sorceresses have harboured ambitions to rule over the world – as a result, many people have come to equate the Sorceress with fear. However, there are also many Sorceresses who have chosen to live a quiet life sheltered away from civilized society; as such, the actual number of Sorceresses and the amount of power shared between them remains unknown.

The potential to become a sorceress is determined by one's capacity to wield such power – their natural affinity for magic. This factor helps to determine Sorceress candidates for when a Sorceress passes on all of her power into the next Sorceress. The giving and receiving of power can be made between any two individuals – it not necessary for them to be related by blood. A Sorceress' lifespan is the same as a normal human's, however they cannot die until they have passed on their power to the next Sorceress.



Might clear up a few things. Except maybe the whole pregnancy thing.

 

[affynity]

Flawed?

It kind of pains me to say it but on replaying Final Fantasy VIII (and maybe a lot of things DO get lost in translation) isn't it possible all theories aside that the storyline is just flawed?

I must be growing very cynical because it didn't bother me when I first played it when it was first released but these huge gaps in the story and conflicting bits of information do actually irk me a bit.


Here’s what I think:

Edea – 1 Power from unnamed Sorceress at age 5 & 1 power from Ultimecia at present time -12 years
Adel – 1 Power from unnamed Sorceress.
Rinoa – 1 Power from Edea which could be either Ultimecia’s power, Edea’s unnamed power or both.
Ultimecia – Power from previous Sorceresses. It is implied that she is the LAST Sorceress so she must therefore have ALL the powers available unless powers are able to change to suit a different host or defy convention and exist until a host appears.
I don’t know if anybody is familiar with Mitochondrial Eve. She is the most recent common ancestor of mankind to have the Mitochondrial DNA that everybody alive today has. Mitochondria are always inherited from the mother so the female line is the only method of tracing it. If this was true of Hynes decendents it would explain why some people are sorceresses and some aren’t. Some Hyne females will have only have had sons and ended their lines there and those that had daughters that had daughters would continue into the present day. This would defy the notion sorceresses can’t have children, maybe they simply prefer to investigate young girls to see if there are many Hynes descendants remaining. Maybe it was for selective breeding as well as finding an heir. (It would be no use to a sorceress to bear a child that was male after all. (BUT no Sorceress was known to have children, BUT it wasn’t disputed beyond Edea, we don’t know that Adel didn’t have a son or many sons.)

I think we SHOULD assume that to be of the direct female Hyne descent is a pre-requisite to receiving the power. Therefore Rinoa was ALWAYS a candidate. Perhaps a candidate is sufficiency enough to be possessed by Ultimecia.

A big issue I’ve been reading is Sorceresses and mortality in regards to passing powers. Before Odine this must have been true. Edea didn’t have to die to pass her powers on. Adel did die but she didn’t get the chance to pick a new sorceress. We can only assume Rinoa received those powers BUT it could have been another descendant of Hyne OR Edea. Odine disrupted the fundamental core of the inheritance. He created a descendent of Hyne who was a sorceress and passed on their power and survived. It is now unclear whether Edea can re-receive powers or not. My own guess is that she can.

So we end up left with a problem wherein we don’t know how many sets of powers can be held by a sorceress (I assume it isn’t limited) whether multiple powers can be passed on as a whole or separately, whether a sorceress who passes their powers and lives can re-receive powers and we don’t know the progenitors of Adel or Edea’s first powers. We don’t even know how many sets of powers Adel has. Ultimecia is referred to as being very powerful, perhaps because she is the last sorceress and has many sets of powers.

I totally disagree with any of these Rinoa is Ultimecia or Edea is Ultimecia. I personally think that because Ultimecia is very powerful she is more inclined to abuse her might.
In FFVIII there are 4 active sorceresses and half are good and half are evil. Edea wouldn’t have been like Adel and neither would Rinoa. The powers mustn’t represent corruption. It must simply be the individual.

Ergo I blame an ill-conceived story for the shortfalls in information. Playing with time is NEVER a good idea for a story because it always provides paradoxes. This is worsened by having so many characters involved.

My other gripe with FFVIII is this whole para-magic rubbish. Sorceresses use magic, GFs allow a junctioned fighter to use para-magic. GFs are criticized for the effect they have on the memory and therefore controversially used by Balamb SeeDs BUT every Esthar and Galbadian soldier can cast spells without GF or being a sorceress.

Ultimately Final Fantasy VIII was probably a victim of the pressure to follow Final Fantasy VII with a fresh battle system and this probably came at odds with the intended storyline.