NonBiased Matchup Review

[The_Oathkeeper]

Sorry for my late response, my computer has been broken for about 3 days, and my bro aka Socrates wouldn't let me use his >.>.

No problem.

Thats what I'm trying to point out, we dont know if Sephiroth had the ability to finish the cookie . What you say is fair since Kuja demonstrated he can eat the cookie, and come on, dont base Sephiroths powa on a movie!

It's true that we don't know for sure whether or not Sephiroth has the power to finish the whole cookie, but that's pretty well irrelevent. What is relevant is that he had multiple chances to eat part of the cookie, and he didn't take any of them, even when it would've furthered his plans or even caused them to succeed. If Sephiroth could've simply eaten enough of the cookie to absorb its Lifestream instead of using Meteor to help him out, he would've. Likewise, if Sephiroth had enough power to turn the cookie into a vessel for him to use to travel the cosmos in one shot, he would've done that, too. However, he was, on both occasions, forced to use outside means (Meteor and Geostigma, respectively) to do any significant damage to the cookie's surface or population (we'll refer to the Planet's population as its "chocolate chips"). While yes, it is true that it was only a movie, it was also a fully-CGI movie whose graphics easily surpassed anything seen even on a Playstation 2.

The problem with this, is that when the Eidolons destroyed those cities they had no resistance . Look what happened to Bahamut when he faced Alexander, Atomos destroyed Lindblum partly because nobody was there to stop him, Odin destroyed Cleyra because again NOBODY STOPPED HIM . As such to compare people based on what they've destroyed just based on that isnt fair.

I don't really think it matters whether they resisted or not, considering, each time an Eidolon wipes out a city, it does so in one blast. It all happened too fast for them to mount any sort of defense. Not only that, but the simple fact that one attack from an Eidolon will wipe out a city pretty much says that any resistance they could've provided would've been stomped down in literally seconds. In the time it takes for a guard to unsheath his/her sword, he/she would've already been slaughtered around with the entirety of the army he/she was serving in. We, as modern-day humans, don't even have many weapons that can compare to that sort of incredible firepower. Nuclear weapons are the only ones that come to mind, actually. Basically, that means that any given Eidolon is able to hurl around the equivalent of nuclear missiles at their opposition. Compare this with the other Summon Spirits Final Fantasy has seen, whose attacks tend to take out one, maybe two buildings. Hell, it took Bahamut SIN forever to charge up just one Mega Flare. In FFIX, Bahamut fired off Mega Flares rapidly and with hardly any delay.

I hit Kuja with my Grand Lethal and he died ^^, also note that was a movie, and Sephiroth left himself wide open for that, I'm sure even Kuja would die if Omnislash hit him. But again we don't know. If you watch Last Order we dont see much of Cloud vs Sephiroth just Cloud stabbing Sephiroth in the back, and Sephiroth stabbing him lol. But in the Movie we see Sephiroth is a much better Swordsman then Cloud. Again I say he never exerted himself against Cloud!

Well, of course Sephiroth left himself wide open to Cloud. Everyone who's not a blatant fanboy knows that. He was hardly using a fraction of his power. However, whether or not he was exerting himself doesn't change how much damage he can take. Just because he wasn't exerting himself doesn't mean that his body suddenly became less durable; how much damage we can take before our bodies give in isn't really something we have all that much control over. If you're hit by a missile, you're going to die no matter how determined you are to keep your body from being ripped to shreds. Likewise, regardless of how lazy or careless you are at the time, getting hit in the arm with a small rock isn't going to kill you. It might sting a little, but it won't kill you. Whether Sephiroth's guard was up or not, the fact that Omnislash was sufficient for killing him in one shot means that Sephiroth's body cannot withstand an Omnislash. Regardless of how much stronger Sephiroth is than Cloud, his durability is still not sufficient for withstanding Omnislash.

The thing is the AMV doesn't show Kuja directly taking the blast, it flashes and when we next see Kuja hes in the air, for all I know he coulda dodged it and been slightly cut. What im saying here is far-fetched, and purely speculatory.

Yes, I suppose it's entirely possible, but not likely. What could Kuja have cut himself on? Furthermore, when he expresses surprise that Bahamut could damage him at all, he credits Bahamut himself for damaging him. If he was surprised that he received a cut, he must've been confident from the start that he could withstand it from the beginning. Kuja may be arrogant, but he's no fool. If he didn't think he could've taken the attack in stride, he wouldn't have tried taking it. If a random chunk of debris can cut his skin, I doubt he would've been so confident about taking the Mega Flare head-on. And again, if it were just a chunk of debris, he wouldn't have credited Bahamut for injuring him, he would've said that he'd (Bahamut) "gotten lucky" or something like that. If it had just missed altogether, he would've said so. Instead, he gave Bahamut credit for the damage. Since he was right there in the middle of the attack, I think he'd know what it was that damaged him, especially considering that Mega Flare is a concentration of energy whereas, say, a shard of broken glass is physical.

Enough, prepare to die!

Lower your weapon. Your determination grows tiresome. Concede or face death.

And I still don't know what the thread should be about got any ideas?

I've always loved threads that are, in some way, about FF6 vs. FF7 simply because of the elitist pricks it tends to attract. It doesn't really matter what you make it about, though, I'm up for any sort of debate involving Final Fantasy. Versus Topics are great for killing time, and in that case, any two characters will work, really.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

No problem.



It's true that we don't know for sure whether or not Sephiroth has the power to finish the whole cookie, but that's pretty well irrelevent. What is relevant is that he had multiple chances to eat part of the cookie, and he didn't take any of them, even when it would've furthered his plans or even caused them to succeed. If Sephiroth could've simply eaten enough of the cookie to absorb its Lifestream instead of using Meteor to help him out, he would've. Likewise, if Sephiroth had enough power to turn the cookie into a vessel for him to use to travel the cosmos in one shot, he would've done that, too. However, he was, on both occasions, forced to use outside means (Meteor and Geostigma, respectively) to do any significant damage to the cookie's surface or population (we'll refer to the Planet's population as its "chocolate chips"). While yes, it is true that it was only a movie, it was also a fully-CGI movie whose graphics easily surpassed anything seen even on a Playstation 2.

Fair enough, we won't get anywhere on that particular point.

I don't really think it matters whether they resisted or not, considering, each time an Eidolon wipes out a city, it does so in one blast. It all happened too fast for them to mount any sort of defense. Not only that, but the simple fact that one attack from an Eidolon will wipe out a city pretty much says that any resistance they could've provided would've been stomped down in literally seconds. In the time it takes for a guard to unsheath his/her sword, he/she would've already been slaughtered around with the entirety of the army he/she was serving in. We, as modern-day humans, don't even have many weapons that can compare to that sort of incredible firepower. Nuclear weapons are the only ones that come to mind, actually. Basically, that means that any given Eidolon is able to hurl around the equivalent of nuclear missiles at their opposition. Compare this with the other Summon Spirits Final Fantasy has seen, whose attacks tend to take out one, maybe two buildings. Hell, it took Bahamut SIN forever to charge up just one Mega Flare. In FFIX, Bahamut fired off Mega Flares rapidly and with hardly any delay.

See here i disagree. Bahamut Sin faced resistance from the whole FF VII cast, while Atomos for example did his thing without anybody stopping him, Atomos didn't blast the city, remember he sucked stuff in . What your saying here kind of sounds like you have a slight bias towards Eidolons and FF VII summons, again I'll revert back to my we don't know their true power argument, because in FF VII, we dont see any summons go on a rampage =P.

Now if Atomos was able to still destroy Lindblum with Zidane and party making life difficult for them, then I'd say your right.

Well, of course Sephiroth left himself wide open to Cloud. Everyone who's not a blatant fanboy knows that. He was hardly using a fraction of his power. However, whether or not he was exerting himself doesn't change how much damage he can take. Just because he wasn't exerting himself doesn't mean that his body suddenly became less durable; how much damage we can take before our bodies give in isn't really something we have all that much control over. If you're hit by a missile, you're going to die no matter how determined you are to keep your body from being ripped to shreds. Likewise, regardless of how lazy or careless you are at the time, getting hit in the arm with a small rock isn't going to kill you. It might sting a little, but it won't kill you. Whether Sephiroth's guard was up or not, the fact that Omnislash was sufficient for killing him in one shot means that Sephiroth's body cannot withstand an Omnislash. Regardless of how much stronger Sephiroth is than Cloud, his durability is still not sufficient for withstanding Omnislash.

Everyone from time to time has a bad moment. Look at Chuck Liddell, for example, Rampage knocked him out with one punch, does that he's susceptable to a one-punch knockout? Absolutely not. Also note it was a damn movie!!!

Yes, I suppose it's entirely possible, but not likely. What could Kuja have cut himself on? Furthermore, when he expresses surprise that Bahamut could damage him at all, he credits Bahamut himself for damaging him. If he was surprised that he received a cut, he must've been confident from the start that he could withstand it from the beginning. Kuja may be arrogant, but he's no fool. If he didn't think he could've taken the attack in stride, he wouldn't have tried taking it. If a random chunk of debris can cut his skin, I doubt he would've been so confident about taking the Mega Flare head-on. And again, if it were just a chunk of debris, he wouldn't have credited Bahamut for injuring him, he would've said that he'd (Bahamut) "gotten lucky" or something like that. If it had just missed altogether, he would've said so. Instead, he gave Bahamut credit for the damage. Since he was right there in the middle of the attack, I think he'd know what it was that damaged him, especially considering that Mega Flare is a concentration of energy whereas, say, a shard of broken glass is physical.

Again I said I was speculating & kidding lol, I doubt his skin is soft like a babies bottom and got cut by a branch or something. But here you bring up a valid point that I nor anyone else will argue.​

Lower your weapon. Your determination grows tiresome. Concede or face death.

How about you lower your weapon so I can kill you and end your pathetic life.

I've always loved threads that are, in some way, about FF6 vs. FF7 simply because of the elitist pricks it tends to attract. It doesn't really matter what you make it about, though, I'm up for any sort of debate involving Final Fantasy. Versus Topics are great for killing time, and in that case, any two characters will work, really.

Perhaps a double match?

Like Cloud & Squall vs Sephiroth & Auron?

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

See here i disagree. Bahamut Sin faced resistance from the whole FF VII cast, while Atomos for example did his thing without anybody stopping him, Atomos didn't blast the city, remember he sucked stuff in . What your saying here kind of sounds like you have a slight bias towards Eidolons and FF VII summons, again I'll revert back to my we don't know their true power argument, because in FF VII, we dont see any summons go on a rampage =P.

Yes, Bahamut SIN faced resistance from the party, but that doesn't change the strength of his attacks. Regardless of the resistance they faced, their attacks remained unchanged. Bahamut SIN's attacks were sufficient for destroying a building; Atomos managed to destroy an entire city with a single attack. It isn't a matter of bias, simply a matter of observing their attacks and deciding which one looks more powerful. Atomos's attack was clearly much more destructive than Bahamut SIN's. The resistance they faced or didn't face is completely irrelevant simply because of the remarkably huge gap in power evident just from watching their attacks. Bahamut SIN destroys buildings, Atomos destroys entire cities. Both of their attacks take about the same amount of time to use, so it's not like Bahamut SIN has any huge advantage in attacking speed. In fact, FFIX's Bahamut seems to attack much faster than Bahamut SIN, at least observing the amount of time it takes him to charge up that final Mega Flare (which didn't even seem as powerful as Bahamut's attack in IX). Regardless of resistance, an attack that destroys a building is more powerful than an attack that destroys a city. It's simple common sense. The resistance was coming from Crisis AVALANCHE, not the buildings Bahamut SIN targeted.

Now if Atomos was able to still destroy Lindblum with Zidane and party making life difficult for them, then I'd say your right.

It doesn't matter if Zidane and the party were fighting Atomos or not. Its attacks STILL would've been capable of destroying cities whether or not you've got a few fighters hacking away at you. How would Zidane and the party being there make Atomos's attacks any weaker? It's not like they would've been able to stop it from attacking altogether, especially given its immense size. It's simply not relevant to the discussion; an attack is going to be just as powerful whether or not the person/creature using it is in a fight. If Atomos had gone on a rampage, gradually damaging Lindblum until it was left a smoldering pile of wreckage, then I could understand you saying that Zidane and co. could've slowed it down or even stopped it from destroying the city. However, it only took Atomos a single attack, so there wasn't really much the party could've done to prevent Lindblum's destruction short of wiping Atomos out in a single attack.

Everyone from time to time has a bad moment. Look at Chuck Liddell, for example, Rampage knocked him out with one punch, does that he's susceptable to a one-punch knockout? Absolutely not. Also note it was a damn movie!!!

Yeah, but Nomura said Sephiroth was at his strongest in AC...

How about you lower your weapon so I can kill you and end your pathetic life.

Such confidence...Unfortunate that it's wasted on a man doomed to an early death.

Perhaps a double match?

Like Cloud & Squall vs Sephiroth & Auron?

A double match would be fine, but that seems a bit one-sided to me. Sephiroth alone could easily defeat Squall and Cloud at once. Auron vs. Squall would be a good match up, but Cloud vs. Sephiroth? Sephy beat Cloud into the ground with about 20% of his maximum potential.

 

[Ichigo]

Wtf is this...........???/

oh lol only based on Sephiroth and Kuja.

Anyways Let's take a look at both sides shall we?

Sephiroth...the supposedly perfect Genome solider created by none other than Dr.Gast and Lucrecia who was supposed to have optimal abilities fit for the worlds perfect solider infused with Jenova cells turns against them and then proceeds to attempt to become one with the life stream due to the Black Materia "Meteor" but during the course of these events he's stopped by Aeris's Holy materia and the world is saved.

Take note people Sephiroth MAY have been defeated by Cloud who was a failed experiment to clone good old Sephy but if we take the "cookie" example shown Sephiroth indeed showed that he could "eat the cookie" due to nearly destroying the world Kinda like how Aeris can "save the cookie" even by dying the Holy materia was still in effect.

Now we Look at Kuja. A failed experiment as stated by Garland but acheived the form of "Perfect Trance" and then proceeded to destroy Terra using the Ultima skill. In doing this Kuja also proved he can "eat the whole cookie" as well as Sephiroth did even if he didn't want to. During the course of the story he indeed Destroyed memoria as well using Ultima but put himself at risk dying shortly later but the real world was saved by Zidane the "Perfect experiment" by Garland.

Now if we use this info then if Sephiroth was defeated by a "failed experiment" like cloud then why shouldnt a "Failed experiment" like Kuja not have a fair chance of winning.

All in all this battle seems to result in a stalemate since they both exhibit the skills necessary to destroy the world with only Kuja edging a little higher due to destroying 2 worlds and Sephiroth almost Destroying 1

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

What...? It's an unbiased review in the sense that it's biased toward neither one character in-particular. Bias would be blatant fanboyism to the degree of saying "Kuja is just a trannie in a thong, Sephiroth would destroy him easy". The idea is that such arguments aren't supposed to be made. Honestly, I suspect δ Kuja Ω and I have seen enough of FFVII and FFIX to be unbiased in our arguments.

 

[Ichigo]

^ sorry i misinterpreted it as a whole FF villan arguement.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Yes, Bahamut SIN faced resistance from the party, but that doesn't change the strength of his attacks. Regardless of the resistance they faced, their attacks remained unchanged. Bahamut SIN's attacks were sufficient for destroying a building; Atomos managed to destroy an entire city with a single attack. It isn't a matter of bias, simply a matter of observing their attacks and deciding which one looks more powerful. Atomos's attack was clearly much more destructive than Bahamut SIN's. The resistance they faced or didn't face is completely irrelevant simply because of the remarkably huge gap in power evident just from watching their attacks. Bahamut SIN destroys buildings, Atomos destroys entire cities. Both of their attacks take about the same amount of time to use, so it's not like Bahamut SIN has any huge advantage in attacking speed. In fact, FFIX's Bahamut seems to attack much faster than Bahamut SIN, at least observing the amount of time it takes him to charge up that final Mega Flare (which didn't even seem as powerful as Bahamut's attack in IX). Regardless of resistance, an attack that destroys a building is more powerful than an attack that destroys a city. It's simple common sense. The resistance was coming from Crisis AVALANCHE, not the buildings Bahamut SIN targeted. It doesn't matter if Zidane and the party were fighting Atomos or not. Its attacks STILL would've been capable of destroying cities whether or not you've got a few fighters hacking away at you. How would Zidane and the party being there make Atomos's attacks any weaker? It's not like they would've been able to stop it from attacking altogether, especially given its immense size. It's simply not relevant to the discussion; an attack is going to be just as powerful whether or not the person/creature using it is in a fight. If Atomos had gone on a rampage, gradually damaging Lindblum until it was left a smoldering pile of wreckage, then I could understand you saying that Zidane and co. could've slowed it down or even stopped it from destroying the city. However, it only took Atomos a single attack, so there wasn't really much the party could've done to prevent Lindblum's destruction short of wiping Atomos out in a single attack.

Well if your going to argue it like that, then yes your correct. But Atomos just like a Basking Shark sucked everything in I wouldn't call that "one attack" unless you wanna be silly and call it "Giga Suction" XD, I'm sure if Bahamut Sin could've charged up his Flare attack he could've done the same Lindblum would also be in bits, as such its more situational. If Atomos started in the middle of the city I can tell you without a doubt he'd have trouble from Zidane and Co, since thats not what happened we can only speculate.

However, comparing Bahamuts Flare to Atomos sucking shit in is quite different, since their attacks are completely different. Bahamut from FF IX's Flare attacks also destroyed buildings, but granted after his battle with Alexander destroyed buildings.

But yes an attack that destroys a City is more powerful then an attack that destroys a building, but come on are you saying Atomos could beat Bahamut Sin in a fight? D:

Yeah, but Nomura said Sephiroth was at his strongest in AC...

Well, yes of course. However again Sephiroth didn't exert himself, you wanted an answer regarding the relavance of this suggestion. Basically for all we know Sephiroth could have many other forms, Sephiroth only displayed one, and that was his physical one, and for all we know most likely his weakest one also, I think if this was done(Omni-Slash) to a Non-Tranced Kuja, he'd die as well, but again thats me speculating. Thats why I say we cannot judge Sephiroth based on his Advent Children performance.

Such confidence...Unfortunate that it's wasted on a man doomed to an early death.

Such arrogance, clearly you haven't learned from Sephiroth ^^.

A double match would be fine, but that seems a bit one-sided to me. Sephiroth alone could easily defeat Squall and Cloud at once. Auron vs. Squall would be a good match up, but Cloud vs. Sephiroth? Sephy beat Cloud into the ground with about 20% of his maximum potential.

Well yes of course ^^, I was just naming who came off the top of my head. Auron vs Squall sounds good, I'll give it some consideration, because quite frankly I don't see a fight between them as "fun".

And Ichigo, please explain your comment a little better, this was a Sephiroth vs Kuja thread that went off topic. Not a monster comparison.

Ah nvm I read your response, No i'm not a fanboy, In fact I like FF IX over VII, but I just dont see Kuja beating Sephiroth.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Well if your going to argue it like that, then yes your correct. But Atomos just like a Basking Shark sucked everything in I wouldn't call that "one attack" unless you wanna be silly and call it "Giga Suction" XD, I'm sure if Bahamut Sin could've charged up his Flare attack he could've done the same Lindblum would also be in bits, as such its more situational. If Atomos started in the middle of the city I can tell you without a doubt he'd have trouble from Zidane and Co, since thats not what happened we can only speculate.

Regardless of whether he sucked or blew...stuff up, the fact remains that, before his attack, the city was there, and after the attack, it wasn't. That means that Atomos possesses the destructive capacity for making it so that a city that once existed doesn't exist anymore. Whether or not it was by directly attacking the city with some sort of projectile or what-have-you is irrelevant. Atomos makes cities disappear, whereas Bahamut SIN does not. From that, we can infer that Atomos can destroy more things in a shorter amount of time than Bahamut SIN. How it happened doesn't really matter. I honestly don't think the people of Lindblum cared that they died by getting sucked into a giant monster instead of getting blown up by one. Either way, they and their entire city was obliterated, and the same can be said for any opponent Atomos might face.

I also doubt that Bahamut SIN could've gotten much more powerful than what we saw. Remember, he did actually fire his Mega Flare. Cloud failed to reach him in time, and the attack was launched. What's more, it only took a single slash from Cloud to make it dissipate altogether. Not a Limit Break, mind you. He didn't bust through it with Omnislash. He cut with his blade at just the right time, and the attack was reduced to mere particles. There's no way it had the destructive capacity of IX's Bahamut. Plus, it traveled a LOT slower.

However, comparing Bahamuts Flare to Atomos sucking shit in is quite different, since their attacks are completely different. Bahamut from FF IX's Flare attacks also destroyed buildings, but granted after his battle with Alexander destroyed buildings.

Atomos isn't the only Summon to show enough destructive capacity to destroy a city. Odin did as well, and Alexander obviously could've destroyed a city judging by all the huge ass lasers it was firing...and the fact that it towered over the city in-question. Bahamut in IX fired powerful attacks in rapid succession with almost no delay in-between shots. What's more, he was referred to as the King of the Eidolons, so, with very few exceptions (such as Alexander), I can only assume he's among the strongest.

But yes an attack that destroys a City is more powerful then an attack that destroys a building, but come on are you saying Atomos could beat Bahamut Sin in a fight? D:

Actually, I don't see why that's at all unlikely. Bahamut SIN may be one of the strongest summons in the FFVII Universe, but the summons in the IX Universe are simply stronger incarnations of the same summon spirits. Atomos (IX) just comes from a universe where Eidolons are generally stronger. However, speed is also an important factor. Atomos lacked mobility altogether, and, while Bahamut SIN didn't seem all that speed-oriented, he could still get around without any trouble. Atomos has more destructive capacity, but destructive power=/=being able to beat someone. It does, however, mean that surviving a hit from Atomos is still more impressive than taking a hit from Bahamut SIN. The same can be said for any of the IX Eidolons, actually. Besides, why COULDN'T Bahamut SIN lose to Atomos? Along with the fact that Atomos is a member of a stronger group of summons, Atomos himself was always portrayed as also being among the stronger Summon Spirits.

Well, yes of course. However again Sephiroth didn't exert himself, you wanted an answer regarding the relavance of this suggestion. Basically for all we know Sephiroth could have many other forms, Sephiroth only displayed one, and that was his physical one, and for all we know most likely his weakest one also, I think if this was done(Omni-Slash) to a Non-Tranced Kuja, he'd die as well, but again thats me speculating. Thats why I say we cannot judge Sephiroth based on his Advent Children performance.

Now that just doesn't make any sense. There's no way Sephiroth has any other forms at this point in time. There's no reason for him to. Even in North Crater, he only obtained those separate forms because he was absorbing Lifestream. What we saw in AC was Sephiroth's strongest form. Now, that doesn't mean he was exerting himself, but he certainly doesn't have any transformations beyond that. It can't be his weakest, either, because the creators said that what we saw was Sephiroth's strongest form yet, and there's absolutely no way to justify him getting anymore. It's not as though he received any enhancements outside of merging with the J-Cells. However, for all I know, an Omnislash may very well wipe out Trance Kuja, but based on what we've seen, I don't think it'd do much good. It'd probably deal significant damage, but it probably wouldn't wipe him out altogether. I can only assume that going into Trance also enhanced Kuja's durability, considering that seems to be the case for his brother, Zidane, and even in his Base Form, Kuja could withstand a direct hit from Bahamut.

Such arrogance, clearly you haven't learned from Sephiroth ^^.

Sephiroth was a fool. I will succeed where he failed.

Well yes of course ^^, I was just naming who came off the top of my head. Auron vs Squall sounds good, I'll give it some consideration, because quite frankly I don't see a fight between them as "fun".

I've always hated it when people overrate Cecil Harvey, so maybe you could make one involving him. But whatever you want, it really doesn't matter to me. As long as it's reasonably balanced; don't put Firion against Zidane, in other words.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Regardless of whether he sucked or blew...stuff up, the fact remains that, before his attack, the city was there, and after the attack, it wasn't. That means that Atomos possesses the destructive capacity for making it so that a city that once existed doesn't exist anymore. Whether or not it was by directly attacking the city with some sort of projectile or what-have-you is irrelevant. Atomos makes cities disappear, whereas Bahamut SIN does not. From that, we can infer that Atomos can destroy more things in a shorter amount of time than Bahamut SIN. How it happened doesn't really matter. I honestly don't think the people of Lindblum cared that they died by getting sucked into a giant monster instead of getting blown up by one. Either way, they and their entire city was obliterated, and the same can be said for any opponent Atomos might face.

Well...Lindblum wasn't wiped out completely but it was damaged badly. I think you missunderstand what I'm getting at, I'm not saying Atomos is weaker then Bahamut SIN, or the other way around, I'm just saying that if Bahamut Sin attacked from the spot Atomos did, he probably would've done more or less the same damage.

I also doubt that Bahamut SIN could've gotten much more powerful than what we saw. Remember, he did actually fire his Mega Flare. Cloud failed to reach him in time, and the attack was launched. What's more, it only took a single slash from Cloud to make it dissipate altogether. Not a Limit Break, mind you. He didn't bust through it with Omnislash. He cut with his blade at just the right time, and the attack was reduced to mere particles. There's no way it had the destructive capacity of IX's Bahamut. Plus, it traveled a LOT slower. Atomos isn't the only Summon to show enough destructive capacity to destroy a city. Odin did as well, and Alexander obviously could've destroyed a city judging by all the huge ass lasers it was firing...and the fact that it towered over the city in-question. Bahamut in IX fired powerful attacks in rapid succession with almost no delay in-between shots. What's more, he was referred to as the King of the Eidolons, so, with very few exceptions (such as Alexander), I can only assume he's among the strongest.

Who could forget Odin and his Gunger Spear ^^, see above. But also bear in mind while Cloud destroyed Bahamut Sin with a slice of his sword, Zidane and party didn't get to even touch Atomos, so we don't know his durability.

Alot of my arguments revolve around not knowing peoples true power lol =D.

Actually, I don't see why that's at all unlikely. Bahamut SIN may be one of the strongest summons in the FFVII Universe, but the summons in the IX Universe are simply stronger incarnations of the same summon spirits. Atomos (IX) just comes from a universe where Eidolons are generally stronger. However, speed is also an important factor. Atomos lacked mobility altogether, and, while Bahamut SIN didn't seem all that speed-oriented, he could still get around without any trouble. Atomos has more destructive capacity, but destructive power=/=being able to beat someone. It does, however, mean that surviving a hit from Atomos is still more impressive than taking a hit from Bahamut SIN. The same can be said for any of the IX Eidolons, actually. Besides, why COULDN'T Bahamut SIN lose to Atomos? Along with the fact that Atomos is a member of a stronger group of summons, Atomos himself was always portrayed as also being among the stronger Summon Spirits.

Does the stuff Atomos sucks up go to like an alternate dimension or something? . Even so, your comparing a damn movie to a game! D: Things as we have seen appear stronger in games. The problem when we compare movies to games is that well were comparing apples to oranges. Movie characters are only as powerful as they are portrayed in the movie, but in the game they are only as strong as you can train them to be, as such thats the problem with the two comparisons. Lets move on, I'll give you the win there if you want I honestly think this debate about Atomos vs Bahamut Sin is number 1 inclusive to Kuja vs Sephiroth, and cannot be determined. Yes I know I brought it up shame on me .

Now that just doesn't make any sense. There's no way Sephiroth has any other forms at this point in time. There's no reason for him to. Even in North Crater, he only obtained those separate forms because he was absorbing Lifestream. What we saw in AC was Sephiroth's strongest form. Now, that doesn't mean he was exerting himself, but he certainly doesn't have any transformations beyond that. It can't be his weakest, either, because the creators said that what we saw was Sephiroth's strongest form yet, and there's absolutely no way to justify him getting anymore. It's not as though he received any enhancements outside of merging with the J-Cells. However, for all I know, an Omnislash may very well wipe out Trance Kuja, but based on what we've seen, I don't think it'd do much good. It'd probably deal significant damage, but it probably wouldn't wipe him out altogether. I can only assume that going into Trance also enhanced Kuja's durability, considering that seems to be the case for his brother, Zidane, and even in his Base Form, Kuja could withstand a direct hit from Bahamut.

I just slapped myself because I re-read what I said and didn't realize wtf I was doing XD. However if we put Kuja in a movie to get Omni-Slashed by Cloud he'd prolly die.

Sephiroth was a fool. I will succeed where he failed.

We will see...

I've always hated it when people overrate Cecil Harvey, so maybe you could make one involving him. But whatever you want, it really doesn't matter to me. As long as it's reasonably balanced; don't put Firion against Zidane, in other words.

Cecil vs Steiner? ^^

Lets get back to Kuja vs Sephiroth.

In power you say Kuja is more powerful because he has demonstrated his true power. Sephiroth has not, which is why we cannot determine if he is/isn't more powerful then Kuja. Thats all im trying to get across here.

we shall debate their:

Accomplishments
&
Power

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Well...Lindblum wasn't wiped out completely but it was damaged badly. I think you missunderstand what I'm getting at, I'm not saying Atomos is weaker then Bahamut SIN, or the other way around, I'm just saying that if Bahamut Sin attacked from the spot Atomos did, he probably would've done more or less the same damage.

But we've seen Bahamut SIN attack, and his Mega Flare didn't have nearly as much destructive power as when Atomos sucked Lindblum. It simply lacked the mass necessary. Most of Bahamut SIN's attacked caused simple explosions and destroyed small portions of the city, whereas Atomos's attack was sufficient for at the very least leaving an entire city totally uninhabitable and killing pretty much all of its inhabitants. I believe one of Bahamut SIN's Mega Flares missed Barret and only destroyed a few steel beams making up the unfinished skeleton of a single building. His final Mega Flare (which took forever to charge, anyway) wasn't THAT much bigger and was incredibly easy to destroy. Cloud didn't even need a Limit Bread; he sort of just swung his sword at the right time and the attack was reduced to a few wisps of energy. I admit we never actually saw that Mega Flare hit anything, but we have seen Bahamut SIN use his energy-based attacks before, and, compared to Atomos's attack, it wasn't that impressive.

Who could forget Odin and his Gunger Spear ^^, see above. But also bear in mind while Cloud destroyed Bahamut Sin with a slice of his sword, Zidane and party didn't get to even touch Atomos, so we don't know his durability.

To be fair, it wasn't a single slash of the sword. It was Climhazzard, which involved Cloud- supercharged with Spirit Energy- shoving his blade into Bahamut SIN's back, running along the entirety of his body while dragging his sword through it, then finishing it with a final cut to bring his sword out. All the while, the Spirit Energy from the sword seemed to be pouring out and engulfing Bahamut SIN. Of course, certain Summons were bigger than that, but I'm pretty sure even an Eidolon in FFIX would've gone down to that if Cloud could get a direct shot in (easier said than done, but still). Granted, Zidane's Dyne techniques tend to appear MUCH more destructive than pretty much any other Limit Breaks we've seen as far as implied storyline power goes. I mean, most of them involve releasing multiple explosions or lasers that, for the most part, engulf the entire screen, and considering Trance is canon to the storyline, I'm pretty sure Zidane's party could take out an Eidolon...But definitely not before it could get off at least ONE attack. That'd just be ridiculous; Bahamut SIN got off a few attacks before going down, and it took him forever to charge them up.

Does the stuff Atomos sucks up go to like an alternate dimension or something? . Even so, your comparing a damn movie to a game! D: Things as we have seen appear stronger in games. The problem when we compare movies to games is that well were comparing apples to oranges. Movie characters are only as powerful as they are portrayed in the movie, but in the game they are only as strong as you can train them to be, as such thats the problem with the two comparisons. Lets move on, I'll give you the win there if you want I honestly think this debate about Atomos vs Bahamut Sin is number 1 inclusive to Kuja vs Sephiroth, and cannot be determined. Yes I know I brought it up shame on me .

But it's still basically the same thing. I could see you having an argument if I were trying to compare Zidane to, say, Cloud based on their respective stats at level 99. However, what I'm referring to is stuff that happens in cut scenes. That means it's relevant to the storyline, just like Advent Children is to Final Fantasy VII's canon. Regardless of how much you train your characters, they're not going to get any stronger in the storyline. Canonically, Zidane will always beat Black Waltz 1 and Sea Lion because that's what needs to happen for the storyline to advance. You can't even level up or train your Eidolons, and as far as the story goes, they're ALWAYS going to appear and destroy those cities because that's what happens in FFIX Canon. We see the attacks depicted in cut scenes, meaning they have no more or less bearing on the storyline than Advent Children. It's true that, in gameplay, characters are as strong as you train them to be, but in the storyline, their strength is always going to be consistent. I could power level Blank to Level 99, but he's still not going to be fast enough to avoid getting petrified.

I just slapped myself because I re-read what I said and didn't realize wtf I was doing XD. However if we put Kuja in a movie to get Omni-Slashed by Cloud he'd prolly die.

Well, yes, Cloud's the main character...But he'd probably need another supped-up version of Omnislash to do it.

We will see...

We certainly will.

Cecil vs Steiner? ^^

Too one-sided...At least give Cecil a fighting chance. I guess you could always just do one of those "Rank the FF Heroes from strongest to weakest" threads.

Lets get back to Kuja vs Sephiroth.

In power you say Kuja is more powerful because he has demonstrated his true power. Sephiroth has not, which is why we cannot determine if he is/isn't more powerful then Kuja. Thats all im trying to get across here.

I'm not saying he's more powerful because he demonstrated his true power. However, based on what we've seen of Sephiroth he has the following abilities in FFVII canon: superhuman natural abilities, telekinesis, telepathy, the ability to control J-Cells, flight, Iakiri, Octaslash, intangibility...and I believe that's it as far as cut scenes go. None of these attacks compare to Kuja's Ultima. Sephiroth's power would've had to have increased in Advent Children so exponentially that it's just not realistic to assume that it could have. I'll give him Super Nova, but seeing as how that attack was cited as, for the most part, an illusion and could be used multiple times in the battle, I doubt it was planet destroying. Hell, the battle field itself was still there after the fight, so it couldn't have been THAT destructive.

we shall debate their:

Accomplishments
&
Power

I've never liked basing a villain on their accomplishments, but okay: Kuja threw an entire planet into chaos and I'm fairly certain he started a war, too. Through his manipulation of a ruler, he sent the world's three major kingdoms into total chaos. He proceeded to go to another world and absorb the souls from the Invincible, then destroy an entire planet. Once that was done, he evidently ripped a hole through the time/space continuum or something because he beat the party to Gaia (another incredible feat of raw power, by the way). Kuja then arguably destroyed the crystal which holds existence itself together, but that hasn't really been confirmed yet and is basically all speculation. However, he did bring about Necron, which...we also don't know what Necron was, exactly.

I don't exactly remember what Sephiroth did that compared to that. A lot of his feats were small-scale, like killing Aerith, impaling the Midgar Zolom, destroying a city and burning it to the ground, etc. He didn't really cause any word wide destruction, but he ALMOST did with Meteor.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

But we've seen Bahamut SIN attack, and his Mega Flare didn't have nearly as much destructive power as when Atomos sucked Lindblum. It simply lacked the mass necessary. Most of Bahamut SIN's attacked caused simple explosions and destroyed small portions of the city, whereas Atomos's attack was sufficient for at the very least leaving an entire city totally uninhabitable and killing pretty much all of its inhabitants. I believe one of Bahamut SIN's Mega Flares missed Barret and only destroyed a few steel beams making up the unfinished skeleton of a single building. His final Mega Flare (which took forever to charge, anyway) wasn't THAT much bigger and was incredibly easy to destroy. Cloud didn't even need a Limit Bread; he sort of just swung his sword at the right time and the attack was reduced to a few wisps of energy. I admit we never actually saw that Mega Flare hit anything, but we have seen Bahamut SIN use his energy-based attacks before, and, compared to Atomos's attack, it wasn't that impressive.

If we put Atomos in a movie, I guarantee you, he wouldn't look as powerful as he did in FF IX, to be fair if Bahamut SIn destroyed all of Midgar, or destroyed it badly, would it have made the movie any better? I soley want your opinion. For me it wouldn't have, because then Sephiroth wouldn'tve have much to destroy.

To be fair, it wasn't a single slash of the sword. It was Climhazzard, which involved Cloud- supercharged with Spirit Energy- shoving his blade into Bahamut SIN's back, running along the entirety of his body while dragging his sword through it, then finishing it with a final cut to bring his sword out. All the while, the Spirit Energy from the sword seemed to be pouring out and engulfing Bahamut SIN. Of course, certain Summons were bigger than that, but I'm pretty sure even an Eidolon in FFIX would've gone down to that if Cloud could get a direct shot in (easier said than done, but still). Granted, Zidane's Dyne techniques tend to appear MUCH more destructive than pretty much any other Limit Breaks we've seen as far as implied storyline power goes. I mean, most of them involve releasing multiple explosions or lasers that, for the most part, engulf the entire screen, and considering Trance is canon to the storyline, I'm pretty sure Zidane's party could take out an Eidolon...But definitely not before it could get off at least ONE attack. That'd just be ridiculous; Bahamut SIN got off a few attacks before going down, and it took him forever to charge them up.

I'm glad we more or less agree here.

But it's still basically the same thing. I could see you having an argument if I were trying to compare Zidane to, say, Cloud based on their respective stats at level 99. However, what I'm referring to is stuff that happens in cut scenes. That means it's relevant to the storyline, just like Advent Children is to Final Fantasy VII's canon. Regardless of how much you train your characters, they're not going to get any stronger in the storyline. Canonically, Zidane will always beat Black Waltz 1 and Sea Lion because that's what needs to happen for the storyline to advance. You can't even level up or train your Eidolons, and as far as the story goes, they're ALWAYS going to appear and destroy those cities because that's what happens in FFIX Canon. We see the attacks depicted in cut scenes, meaning they have no more or less bearing on the storyline than Advent Children. It's true that, in gameplay, characters are as strong as you train them to be, but in the storyline, their strength is always going to be consistent. I could power level Blank to Level 99, but he's still not going to be fast enough to avoid getting petrified.

What you say here is true, but when you actually get Atomos his attack is different. Could he destroy LIndblum is he used his G-Force 199(w/e) attack, i'm not sure. But then again thats not what your saying at all. I still don't think comparing Atomos - Bahamut Sin is a good one, regardless because its a movie. But instead i'll say this. Cloud doing Climmhazard, and the party attacking a few times in FF World means Bahamut Sin didn't have alot of life. So ok, perhaps he is weak.

Too one-sided...At least give Cecil a fighting chance. I guess you could always just do one of those "Rank the FF Heroes from strongest to weakest" threads.

I only like comparing villians , those rank the FF heros threads dont really prove much, because well you know...Again that was an example. Perhaps Steiner vs Auron?

I'm not saying he's more powerful because he demonstrated his true power. However, based on what we've seen of Sephiroth he has the following abilities in FFVII canon: superhuman natural abilities, telekinesis, telepathy, the ability to control J-Cells, flight, Iakiri, Octaslash, intangibility...and I believe that's it as far as cut scenes go. None of these attacks compare to Kuja's Ultima. Sephiroth's power would've had to have increased in Advent Children so exponentially that it's just not realistic to assume that it could have. I'll give him Super Nova, but seeing as how that attack was cited as, for the most part, an illusion and could be used multiple times in the battle, I doubt it was planet destroying. Hell, the battle field itself was still there after the fight, so it couldn't have been THAT destructive.

Lets see Kujas Ultima, he fires some energy into the sky, and it comes down and strikes. You realize Sephiroth has the ability to dodge this right, Kuja would first have to injure Sephiroth badly enough to make him immobile, then use Ultima, Sephiroth isn't gonna just let him hit him, plus hello, Ultima took like 3-5 seconds for Kuja to cast(aka gathering the energy) during that time Sephiroth can easily teleport behind him and cut his head off, don't compare Bahamut Mega Flaring Kuja and leaving a cut to this. Your basically comparing an energy attack, to a physical one. Speed > Power, at least in MMA it does =P. I can have a powerful right hand, and my opponent can have a quick right hand, see what I mean? For all I know Sephiroth could've gained some new ultimate attack ^^.

I've never liked basing a villain on their accomplishments, but okay: Kuja threw an entire planet into chaos and I'm fairly certain he started a war, too. Through his manipulation of a ruler, he sent the world's three major kingdoms into total chaos. He proceeded to go to another world and absorb the souls from the Invincible, then destroy an entire planet. Once that was done, he evidently ripped a hole through the time/space continuum or something because he beat the party to Gaia (another incredible feat of raw power, by the way). Kuja then arguably destroyed the crystal which holds existence itself together, but that hasn't really been confirmed yet and is basically all speculation. However, he did bring about Necron, which...we also don't know what Necron was, exactly.

I don't exactly remember what Sephiroth did that compared to that. A lot of his feats were small-scale, like killing Aerith, impaling the Midgar Zolom, destroying a city and burning it to the ground, etc. He didn't really cause any word wide destruction, but he ALMOST did with Meteor.

I dont either since it doesn't really prove anything but...

Thats not what I meant by accomplishments, anybody can go and just do something, I'm talking about goals that were met.

Kuja wanted to end all life to justify his existance, so he tried and it didn't work. In term he wanted to find the ultimate power, and he did(absorbing souls) and destroyed Terra, this wasn't his intention, and by no means does that mean he could just blow up Sephiroth with it.

Sephiroth wanted to become a god, and he did. Along the way he killed a few people, killed Aeris!! Kuja at best killed Brahne.

Imo Sephiroth was more of the asshole villian, while Kuja was more of the all-powerful seemingly invincible one.

Instead lets talk about a battle scenario.

Open space, with rock pillars.

Sephiroth has:

Masamune
Materia
His AC Form

Kuja has:

Trance
Normal Form
Ultima

___________________________________________________________________

I can see Kuja starting off by attacking Sephiroth with magical blasts, and Sephiroth dodging them, then eventually countering Kuja with a sword slice once he reaches the end of a rock pillar. Eventually I think Sephiroth will gain the upper-hand causing Kuja to get mad and Trance.

Sephiroth continues to do the same, assuming Kuja just got "a tail", but realizes Kuja is more powerful then he thought. Perhaps he could use his tele-kinesis stuff here to throw some rocks at Kuja to try and slice him, but fails. Kuja then gets mad again and decides to finish it. Kuja casts Ultima, gets on top of a rock pillar, and watches as it destroys everything below, he grins, and realizes theres somebody behind him and *slice* his head gets chopped off, and Sephiroth smiles for the first time in victory.

Feel free to present your own scenario.

- Kuja

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

If we put Atomos in a movie, I guarantee you, he wouldn't look as powerful as he did in FF IX, to be fair if Bahamut SIn destroyed all of Midgar, or destroyed it badly, would it have made the movie any better? I soley want your opinion. For me it wouldn't have, because then Sephiroth wouldn'tve have much to destroy.

That doesn't have anything to do with it, though. It doesn't matter whether they were in a movie or in a video-game as long as we're citing storyline-relevant examples. If I were trying to base my argument around what Atomos can do in Gameplay, then you'd have a point. However, regardless of where they were at the time, Atomos proved itself to have more destructive potential than Bahamut SIN. Oh, and they weren't in Midgar. Midgar was already destroyed in the original FFVII. The city Bahamut SIN was released in was called Edge, and it was located just outside of Midgar's destroyed ruins. Though I'm not sure what you mean by "Sephiroth wouldn't have much to destroy". The world consists of more than one city, you know. Even if it were nuked, Sephiroth would have plenty of stuff left to trash. Besides, I don't see how Bahamut SIN destroying one city would automatically make it an unexciting movie, considering:

A) I think there are only two or so fights that actually take place in Edge.
B) The fight against Bahamut SIN probably would've looked even cooler if it took place in the destroyed ruins of a city.
C) It would've given the writers an excuse to show more of the FFVII World than a few select locations...which I seriously wish they'd done.

It's just not important whether we see them in a movie or a video-game. The Eidolons in FFIX were portrayed as more powerful than the Summons in FFVII. It's that simple. The storyline depictions of the IX's Eidolons cause more destruction with each attack than the storyline depictions of VII's Summons. If the writers wanted to have Bahamut SIN be powerful enough to destroy a city, they would've had its Mega Flare destroy the city. Likewise, if they didn't want Atomos to be powerful enough to destroy Lindblum, they wouldn't have had it destroy Lindblum. The people who create the storyline have all the control over what happens in it, whether we're talking about a game, movie, book, TV series, play, whatever. It's the same no matter what. When it comes to a character's power, they also have complete control to make that character as strong or as weak as they want. The creators of FFIX saw fit to make Atomos stronger than the creators of Advent Children saw fit to make Bahamut SIN.

What you say here is true, but when you actually get Atomos his attack is different. Could he destroy LIndblum is he used his G-Force 199(w/e) attack, i'm not sure. But then again thats not what your saying at all. I still don't think comparing Atomos - Bahamut Sin is a good one, regardless because its a movie. But instead i'll say this. Cloud doing Climmhazard, and the party attacking a few times in FF World means Bahamut Sin didn't have alot of life. So ok, perhaps he is weak.

Bahamut has always been among the strongest Summons. If he's not the absolute most powerful, he's up there with the best of them or simply one of several "strongest/legendary Summons". Bahamut SIN- presumably an enhanced version of Bahamut- could be assumed to be up there with the strongest Summons, as well, seeing as how he's probably a more powerful form of Bahamut. Perhaps the Summons in FFVII just aren't durable enough to withstand more than a few Limit Breaks. However, I'd just like to point out that, by the time Cloud showed up, the rest of AVALANCHE had been pounding on it for about an hour and a half. Then Cloud came, slashed at it a few times, and hit it with Braver, sending it crashing to the ground through the skeleton of a building. He proceeded to cut a gash in him from his neck to his tail, all the while sending powerful surges of Spirit Energy through his body. So basically, that's ninety minutes of being attacked by Tifa, Cid, Red XIII, Barret, Yuffie, and Vincent (a battle during which a few Limit Breaks were used), then getting plowed into the ground/nearly cut in half by a genetically enhanced super soldier. That's quite a bit of damage.

I only like comparing villians , those rank the FF heros threads dont really prove much, because well you know...Again that was an example. Perhaps Steiner vs Auron?

Most of these would probably be a bit tough because, for the most part, we don't really have a whole lot to go by. I've always wanted to do something like Cecil vs. Cloud, but if you want to do villains, Sephiroth vs. Kefka should be a riot. You'd have fanboys and haters coming out of the woodwork left and right to defend their villain to the death even if it means throwing sound logic to the ground and stomping it into the dust.

Lets see Kujas Ultima, he fires some energy into the sky, and it comes down and strikes. You realize Sephiroth has the ability to dodge this right, Kuja would first have to injure Sephiroth badly enough to make him immobile, then use Ultima, Sephiroth isn't gonna just let him hit him, plus hello, Ultima took like 3-5 seconds for Kuja to cast(aka gathering the energy) during that time Sephiroth can easily teleport behind him and cut his head off,

Actually, I just re-watched the clip. Though the first Ultima beam took a second or two to fire off, I think that might've just been Kuja pausing for dramatic effect. That wouldn't exactly be out-of-character for him, you know? Of course I wouldn't base that off of speculation alone. I say this because, though the first blast took about...two and a half seconds to charge, all subsequent blasts were fired instantaneously. He just kept throwing them out one right after another, so I really don't think Ultima actually takes any significant time to prepare. If I had to guess, I'd just say that that was Kuja doing a "Puny humans. Cower before the power I command" sort of thing. You and I both know that Kuja has a taste for theatrics, and the look on his face as the palm of his hand begins to glow seems very...dramatic. I can't say for sure that this is true, but I don't see any explanation. Either way, he does fire off a number of Ultimas in very rapid succession, so...

And yes, I'm aware of the fact that Sephiroth could dodge a few Ultimas in his attempt to close the distance between himself and Kuja. However, if you watch the clip closely, you'll see a few of the beams changing their paths in mid-flight. From this, I infer that either Kuja himself is guiding the beams or each blast has some capacity for actively seeking out a target. I mean, I don't see any other reason for the blasts to spontaneously change direction other than seeking out a target. That'd be like the military designing a missile that suddenly turns at a 45 degree angle for no reason whatsoever- it serves no purpose unless it's to make the attack/weapon more accurate. So yes, let's say Sephiroth dodges the first few beams. Kuja fires more, and the ones Sephiroth dodged come back to get him (I think they'd at least turn around once). It wouldn't be long before Sephiroth is overwhelmed by the sheer number of projectiles targeting him. I'd like to see you dodge dozens of heat-seeking missiles with planet destroying qualities.

Also, Sephiroth's teleportation seems to take a moment or two to actually use, if Crisis Core is any indication. Besides, I don't know how useful teleportation would be in a one-on-one fight, assuming there's no significant gap in strength/speed between the two fighters. If you teleport in a one-on-one fight, you're pretty much either going to appear behind the person (or otherwise near them) or far away from them. Kuja would have ample time to react, considering there aren't many things Sephiroth could do to surprise him.

don't compare Bahamut Mega Flaring Kuja and leaving a cut to this. Your basically comparing an energy attack, to a physical one. Speed > Power, at least in MMA it does =P. I can have a powerful right hand, and my opponent can have a quick right hand, see what I mean? For all I know Sephiroth could've gained some new ultimate attack ^^.

Meh...Both are powerful attacks that showed immense destructive capabilities. I know it's not THE most accurate way of measuring their durability, but it's the best we can do. At the very least, it can be said that Kuja is very durable even in his Base Form, so it isn't as though Sephiroth would have an easy time bringing him down. He's not the typical frail mage, anyway. We can also say, then, that Sephiroth isn't an invulnerable juggernaut who can withstand incredible amounts of damage, and that he could potentially be brought down by a few solid attacks.

Incidentally, do you actually study MMA?

I dont either since it doesn't really prove anything but...

Thats not what I meant by accomplishments, anybody can go and just do something, I'm talking about goals that were met.

I disagree. Not just anybody could burn a town to the ground without getting the snot beat out of them by the local law enforcement or, hell, angry citizens with knives and guns. Not just anybody can blow up a planet, either. But whatever you say, I guess.

Kuja wanted to end all life to justify his existance, so he tried and it didn't work. In term he wanted to find the ultimate power, and he did(absorbing souls) and destroyed Terra, this wasn't his intention, and by no means does that mean he could just blow up Sephiroth with it. \

Sephiroth wanted to become a god, and he did. Along the way he killed a few people, killed Aeris!! Kuja at best killed Brahne.

First of all, Kuja had a much more lofty goal. Becoming a god is tough, but wiping out all of existence is much tougher. Furthermore, Sephiroth never became a god. He got close, but Meteor never hit. Even if it did, of course, he wouldn't have been alive to see it. In order for Sephiroth to become a god, you see, Meteor would've had to have hit while he was alive so that he could absorb the Lifestream that would arrive to fix the wound. This is stated fairly explicitly in the game. However, Sephiroth was killed and Meteor destroyed before it actually wounded the Planet in any serious way. So, really, neither of them achieved their goals. Kuja, however, has a higher body count from the planet he threw into chaos.

Imo Sephiroth was more of the asshole villian, while Kuja was more of the all-powerful seemingly invincible one.

I consider Sephiroth stylish and Kuja theatrical, but okay, whatever works.

Instead lets talk about a battle scenario.

Open space, with rock pillars.

Fair enough.

Sephiroth has:

Masamune
Materia
His AC Form

Kuja has:

Trance
Normal Form
Ultima

Which Materia? He can only hold a certain amount, and we don't really know how most Materia works in the Storyline. We also don't know that Sephiroth has any Materia in his arsenal. He apparently lost it when his material body was decomposed in the Lifestream. Oh, and Ultima is an attack that comes with Kuja's Trance Form. It's not an accessory that he can equip and unequip; that's like saying Sephiroth needs to be allowed to use telekinesis. But okay...

___________________________________________________________________

I can see Kuja starting off by attacking Sephiroth with magical blasts, and Sephiroth dodging them, then eventually countering Kuja with a sword slice once he reaches the end of a rock pillar. Eventually I think Sephiroth will gain the upper-hand causing Kuja to get mad and Trance.

Sephiroth continues to do the same, assuming Kuja just got "a tail", but realizes Kuja is more powerful then he thought. Perhaps he could use his tele-kinesis stuff here to throw some rocks at Kuja to try and slice him, but fails. Kuja then gets mad again and decides to finish it. Kuja casts Ultima, gets on top of a rock pillar, and watches as it destroys everything below, he grins, and realizes theres somebody behind him and *slice* his head gets chopped off, and Sephiroth smiles for the first time in victory.

Feel free to present your own scenario.

- Kuja

I don't really know how to present a scenario. The outcome of the battle depends pretty much entirely on how far away from each other they are when it starts. If they start out a reasonable distance apart, all Kuja has to do is fly up and bombard Sephiroth with Ultimas. However, if they're close together, Sephiroth could close the distance before that happens. If it's close combat, then I'd give it to Sephiroth. If it's long-distance, I'll give it to Kuja no questions. However, I don't know if your scenario really works. Yes, I agree with the first paragraph, but beyond that? I'm going to assume that Sephiroth teleported, though his teleportation isn't instantaneous and he's not THAT fast. Not fast enough for Kuja to lose track of him, anyway. Also, Ultima seems to track its target down to some degree. I'm not really sure on the specifics, but if that's the case, it'd lock on to Sephiroth.

I mean, I could TRY to make a scenario, but those little things get in the way. How far apart are they? Is Kuja starting out in Trance? How large is the arena? That sort of thing.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

That doesn't have anything to do with it, though. It doesn't matter whether they were in a movie or in a video-game as long as we're citing storyline-relevant examples. If I were trying to base my argument around what Atomos can do in Gameplay, then you'd have a point. However, regardless of where they were at the time, Atomos proved itself to have more destructive potential than Bahamut SIN. Oh, and they weren't in Midgar. Midgar was already destroyed in the original FFVII. The city Bahamut SIN was released in was called Edge, and it was located just outside of Midgar's destroyed ruins. Though I'm not sure what you mean by "Sephiroth wouldn't have much to destroy". The world consists of more than one city, you know. Even if it were nuked, Sephiroth would have plenty of stuff left to trash. Besides, I don't see how Bahamut SIN destroying one city would automatically make it an unexciting movie, considering:

What I meant was, Sephiroth vs Cloud wouldn't have been as good, remember all the stuff they went through? Not exactly the best reason. =P

A) I think there are only two or so fights that actually take place in Edge.
B) The fight against Bahamut SIN probably would've looked even cooler if it took place in the destroyed ruins of a city.
C) It would've given the writers an excuse to show more of the FFVII World than a few select locations...which I seriously wish they'd done.

Good suggestions, actually I agree with them all.

Actually, I just re-watched the clip. Though the first Ultima beam took a second or two to fire off, I think that might've just been Kuja pausing for dramatic effect. That wouldn't exactly be out-of-character for him, you know? Of course I wouldn't base that off of speculation alone. I say this because, though the first blast took about...two and a half seconds to charge, all subsequent blasts were fired instantaneously. He just kept throwing them out one right after another, so I really don't think Ultima actually takes any significant time to prepare. If I had to guess, I'd just say that that was Kuja doing a "Puny humans. Cower before the power I command" sort of thing. You and I both know that Kuja has a taste for theatrics, and the look on his face as the palm of his hand begins to glow seems very...dramatic. I can't say for sure that this is true, but I don't see any explanation. Either way, he does fire off a number of Ultimas in very rapid succession, so...

Yeah Kuja I believe when they captured Garnet quoted Lord Avon. Perhaps maybe if hes quoting a play Sephiroth will cut his head off due to annoyance =D. As far as Ultima goes, if Kuja does guide them, they still have to hit Sephiroth. I don't think 1 Ultima Blast is gonna wtfpwn Sephiroth. Kuja does love theatrics though, and I don't think anybody is going to deny that.

And yes, I'm aware of the fact that Sephiroth could dodge a few Ultimas in his attempt to close the distance between himself and Kuja. However, if you watch the clip closely, you'll see a few of the beams changing their paths in mid-flight. From this, I infer that either Kuja himself is guiding the beams or each blast has some capacity for actively seeking out a target. I mean, I don't see any other reason for the blasts to spontaneously change direction other than seeking out a target. That'd be like the military designing a missile that suddenly turns at a 45 degree angle for no reason whatsoever- it serves no purpose unless it's to make the attack/weapon more accurate. So yes, let's say Sephiroth dodges the first few beams. Kuja fires more, and the ones Sephiroth dodged come back to get him (I think they'd at least turn around once). It wouldn't be long before Sephiroth is overwhelmed by the sheer number of projectiles targeting him. I'd like to see you dodge dozens of heat-seeking missiles with planet destroying qualities.

Sephiroth could also teleport from some Ultimas XD. IF Kuja is gonna finish Sephiroth via Ultima its going to be because he surrounds Sephiroth with them, and closes them in. Now if their Homing Beams more or less like you mentioned, Sephiroth is hes smart, which he is would go towards Kuja then jump out of the way, and BAM Kuja gets pwnt by his own attack.

Also, Sephiroth's teleportation seems to take a moment or two to actually use, if Crisis Core is any indication. Besides, I don't know how useful teleportation would be in a one-on-one fight, assuming there's no significant gap in strength/speed between the two fighters. If you teleport in a one-on-one fight, you're pretty much either going to appear behind the person (or otherwise near them) or far away from them. Kuja would have ample time to react, considering there aren't many things Sephiroth could do to surprise him.

Meh...Both are powerful attacks that showed immense destructive capabilities. I know it's not THE most accurate way of measuring their durability, but it's the best we can do. At the very least, it can be said that Kuja is very durable even in his Base Form, so it isn't as though Sephiroth would have an easy time bringing him down. He's not the typical frail mage, anyway. We can also say, then, that Sephiroth isn't an invulnerable juggernaut who can withstand incredible amounts of damage, and that he could potentially be brought down by a few solid attacks.

Incidentally, do you actually study MMA?

If you read my profile it says yes =), Although its written in Spanish, so I can understand if you didnt get it. Yes I study Muay Thai, Jiu-Jitsu, and Shotokan Karate, I do a little Boxing also. I hold a 3-0 Record 3 wins via TKO. I don't think Kuja will get killed by Sephiroths sword in his base form, but he can/will get injured very badly. Now he could also get killed and not make it to Trance. Thats just my take though.

First of all, Kuja had a much more lofty goal. Becoming a god is tough, but wiping out all of existence is much tougher. Furthermore, Sephiroth never became a god. He got close, but Meteor never hit. Even if it did, of course, he wouldn't have been alive to see it. In order for Sephiroth to become a god, you see, Meteor would've had to have hit while he was alive so that he could absorb the Lifestream that would arrive to fix the wound. This is stated fairly explicitly in the game. However, Sephiroth was killed and Meteor destroyed before it actually wounded the Planet in any serious way. So, really, neither of them achieved their goals. Kuja, however, has a higher body count from the planet he threw into chaos.

When Sephiroth became Bizzaro Sephiroth/Seraph Sephiroth yes he became a god. But his reign was short-lived, its open for interpretation though. Now if we compare body counts, lets see.

Kuja destroyed a planet with no people on it, a few ships with people on them, but then again Bahamut did this. Sephiroth massacred a village, Shinra Office, That boat, etc. So...no I think Sephiroth killed more people then Kuja. Kuja without a doubt INDIRECTLY killed more people though.

I consider Sephiroth stylish and Kuja theatrical, but okay, whatever works.

Fair enough.

Which Materia? He can only hold a certain amount, and we don't really know how most Materia works in the Storyline. We also don't know that Sephiroth has any Materia in his arsenal. He apparently lost it when his material body was decomposed in the Lifestream. Oh, and Ultima is an attack that comes with Kuja's Trance Form. It's not an accessory that he can equip and unequip; that's like saying Sephiroth needs to be allowed to use telekinesis. But okay...

Does it matter what Materia he uses? By this I mean if i randomly picked the 3 best he could utilize it would be fair? =P. Now I wasn't talking about equipables, I was talking about what they're allowed to use. My choice of words was poor, and I do apologize for that.

___________________________________________________________________

I don't really know how to present a scenario. The outcome of the battle depends pretty much entirely on how far away from each other they are when it starts. If they start out a reasonable distance apart, all Kuja has to do is fly up and bombard Sephiroth with Ultimas. However, if they're close together, Sephiroth could close the distance before that happens. If it's close combat, then I'd give it to Sephiroth. If it's long-distance, I'll give it to Kuja no questions. However, I don't know if your scenario really works. Yes, I agree with the first paragraph, but beyond that? I'm going to assume that Sephiroth teleported, though his teleportation isn't instantaneous and he's not THAT fast. Not fast enough for Kuja to lose track of him, anyway. Also, Ultima seems to track its target down to some degree. I'm not really sure on the specifics, but if that's the case, it'd lock on to Sephiroth.

I mean, I could TRY to make a scenario, but those little things get in the way. How far apart are they? Is Kuja starting out in Trance? How large is the arena? That sort of thing.

Make any scenario, and we'll compare. I dont really think long-distance Kuja will win as fairly as you state, but it will be very difficult for Sephiroth. Again I think the point you make is true, it depends where they fight.

Could you explain to me a bit better why after the 1st paragraph you got lost? Basically I meant Sephiroth realizes Kuja isn't to be toyed with, and Kuja gets fed up and just uses Ultima.

- Kuja

 

[The Crystal]

1)Kuja didn't blow-up a planet, because there isn't any proof he did it. We can say he destroyed the surface of Terra, because this is what we saw in the FMV, and this is what Mikoto said. But blowing it up?! No. Just... No.
Not to mention that it doesn't make sense, because Terra is located in the core of Gaia. If he blew-up Terra, Gaia should have exploded too.

2) Sephiroth is waaaaaaaaaaaay faster than Kuja. We can see in some scenes of CC(one of Zack's DMW flasbacks, and in Nibel), that Seph can move faster than the eyes can see.
Kuja on the other hand, doesn't have any speed feat during the story.
Even if Kuja use magic, it will not help him much, because, 1) Post-Nibel Sephiroth can use magic without the aid of Materia, 2) Pre-Nibel Sephiroth was already immune to some types of magic, as seen in his fight wih Genesis, and 3) Kuja needs to charge his spells before shooting them, but Sephiroth can speedblitz him before that.

3) Because of his connection with Jenova, Sephiroth can regenerate parts of his body(Bizarro did it), or even his entire body(after Kadaj(a spirit-body containing part of Sephiroth's will) drunk the cells of that box, Sephiroth used them to create a completely new body for him).

3) Kuja can "teleport", but from what the evidence show us, it's not instant. He needs to open a portal, and enter it(like the portal to Memoria). Problem is... His enemy will not wait while he does that.
On the other hand, Kuja can instantly teleport other people. He did that with Zidane and the party after the fight with Necron.
If Seph isn't fast enough, Kuja could teleport him to another dimension, and be the victor of the battle.

4) Kuja is more durable than Sephiroth(Bahamut vs Kuja on the Iifa Tree), but that's countered by Sephiroth's regeneration.

5) Both of them are good at magic. Kuja seems to be stronger at that department, but lets not forget about Bizarro and Safer Sephiroth who had a lot of magic spells.
Not to mention that Seph have Jenova's special abilities, like: telekinesis, intangibility, illusions, telepathy, flight, etc.

Kuja is a very powerful mage, but Sephiroth is a powerful mage, a very good physical fighter, and have some special powers granted to him by the J-cells.
He have the advantage.

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

What I meant was, Sephiroth vs Cloud wouldn't have been as good, remember all the stuff they went through? Not exactly the best reason. =P

I know what you meant, but Cloud vs. Sephiroth didn't take place in the same city that the fight against Bahamut SIN took place in. If Bahamut SIN destroyed the city of Edge, it really wouldn't have had any effect on Cloud's duel against Sephiroth at all. Besides, they actually WERE fighting in the ruins of a destroyed city. Midgar was pretty much in shambles by the time Sephiroth was revived and fought Cloud. Sure, there were some buildings left standing and all, but it was pretty much wrecked. Sephiroth did even more damage to it, anyway. But I'm getting off-topic. My main point is that Bahamut SIN destroying Edge wouldn't have taken anything from Cloud vs. Sephiroth, considering the two battles were in entirely different locations.

Yeah Kuja I believe when they captured Garnet quoted Lord Avon. Perhaps maybe if hes quoting a play Sephiroth will cut his head off due to annoyance =D. As far as Ultima goes, if Kuja does guide them, they still have to hit Sephiroth. I don't think 1 Ultima Blast is gonna wtfpwn Sephiroth. Kuja does love theatrics though, and I don't think anybody is going to deny that.

It's true that Sephiroth could evade one Ultima beam, but Kuja can fire them one-after-another quite rapidly, and each one travels at an incredibly fast pace given what we've seen of most fireballs/various magical projectiles in Final Fantasy. They also don't seem to stop after colliding with a target, meaning Sephiroth wouldn't be able to stop them by standing in front of, oh, say, a building or rock and moving out of the way at the last second. However, while he'd be able to close the distance between himself and Kuja if he only had to deal with one or two Ultima blasts, that'd be fine, but Kuja fired at least ten shots off in rapid succession (I think I counted about a dozen in the clip where he destroys Terra, but I'm not sure...). In fact, Kuja showed the ability to fire multiple beams at once, up to, at the very least, four at a time. That means Sephiroth would be dealing with over a dozen virtually indestructible, high velocity beams of magical energy capable of locking onto and following after him. He wouldn't be able to deal with that for very long.

Sephiroth could also teleport from some Ultimas XD. IF Kuja is gonna finish Sephiroth via Ultima its going to be because he surrounds Sephiroth with them, and closes them in. Now if their Homing Beams more or less like you mentioned, Sephiroth is hes smart, which he is would go towards Kuja then jump out of the way, and BAM Kuja gets pwnt by his own attack.

But if Sephiroth tried teleporting, he'd get bombarded by the Ultimas before he could actually get from one place to another. You're forgetting that Sephiroth's teleportation seems to take a second or two to "prepare". During that time, Kuja could hit him with an Ultima, and the rest of the beams would then catch up to him...and that's assuming that the other blasts wouldn't have already hit their target. Also, if Sephiroth were to charge directly toward Kuja, I think he'd have enough sense to simply fire another Ultima blast at him before he gets too close. You're forgetting that, the more time Kuja has, the more Ultimas he fires. He's not limited to the Ultimas already out there, and given Kuja's incredibly sharp mind (he must be an ingenious thinker given that he manipulated a kingdom's ruler and threw the world's three major kingdoms into chaos), I think he'd know enough to blast him down before he gets too close. Flying straight toward someone who specializes in long-range combat is probably the stupidest thing a melee fighter can do unless they KNOW that they're capable of dodging/deflecting all of their projectiles.

If you read my profile it says yes =), Although its written in Spanish, so I can understand if you didnt get it. Yes I study Muay Thai, Jiu-Jitsu, and Shotokan Karate, I do a little Boxing also. I hold a 3-0 Record 3 wins via TKO. I don't think Kuja will get killed by Sephiroths sword in his base form, but he can/will get injured very badly. Now he could also get killed and not make it to Trance. Thats just my take though.

Cool. I've been practicing kick boxing, Jiu-Jitsu, and Hapkido for close to a year now, but I've been considering switching over to Muay Thai or simply a place that explicitly teaches Mixed Martial Arts. Anyway, that's another thing; does Kuja start out in his Base Form or Trance? Sephiroth starts the fight in his strongest form, so shouldn't Kuja? His Super Trance seems to be permanent, so once he Trances, he doesn't change back (I'm guessing) until he's beaten up or near death/dead...

When Sephiroth became Bizzaro Sephiroth/Seraph Sephiroth yes he became a god. But his reign was short-lived, its open for interpretation though. Now if we compare body counts, lets see.

I don't see how Sephiroth became a god. It was pretty much stated that he would need to have Meteor hit the Planet in order for him to become a god. It's true that the song playing during the Bizarro Sephiroth Battle was called "Birth of a God", but I take that to mean more "A god is going to be born" or "A god is in the process of being born" rather than saying that Sephiroth had already become a god. I mean, it was stated quite clearly that Sephiroth's goal was to become a god by having Meteor strike the Planet, waiting for the Lifestream to come to the wound he created, and absorbing it all. Since Meteor never hit, Sephiroth never became a god. He came extraordinarily close, but it never happened.

Kuja destroyed a planet with no people on it, a few ships with people on them, but then again Bahamut did this. Sephiroth massacred a village, Shinra Office, That boat, etc. So...no I think Sephiroth killed more people then Kuja. Kuja without a doubt INDIRECTLY killed more people though.

A high body count doesn't necessarily make for a strong villain, though. Sephiroth killed ShinRa employees and villagers. That's about it. You have to examine WHO they killed rather than how many people they killed when talking about who is the more powerful villain. Granted, Kuja never really killed anyone particularly powerful, either, so that basically makes it a moot point. All we know is that Sephiroth can kill sailors and scientists, neither of whom are famous for their superhuman combat proficiency. If Sephiroth had killed an entire building full of 2nd and 1st Class SOLDIER operatives, then I could understand you making that argument. However, he only really kills normal people who are vastly inferior to him.

Does it matter what Materia he uses? By this I mean if i randomly picked the 3 best he could utilize it would be fair? =P. Now I wasn't talking about equipables, I was talking about what they're allowed to use. My choice of words was poor, and I do apologize for that.

But the strength of Materia varies. However, I'm...not really sure that Materia would do much for Sephiroth. Kuja has proven himself capable of taking direct hits from the strongest of FFIX's Summons (or at least one of them), and the IX Summons seem much more powerful than the VII Summons. That said, I don't think Summon Materia would help him much. Command Materia is...very vague. Why do you need a piece of Materia to hit someone particularly hard or to steal from them...? I doubt it's canon, anyway. As for Magic Materia, Kuja vastly outclasses Sephiroth in terms of magic, so it would be rather stupid of Sephiroth to go against Kuja Spell-for-Spell. I can't really think of any three pieces of Materia that would do him a whole lot of good. Besides, the fact is that we really have no idea what most Materia even does. Whenever we see Materia in the storyline, it pretty much always acts differently from what we see of it in gameplay. Don't worry about your choice of words, though, I understand. I'm just confused as to what most pieces of Materia do as far as the storyline goes...

Make any scenario, and we'll compare. I dont really think long-distance Kuja will win as fairly as you state, but it will be very difficult for Sephiroth. Again I think the point you make is true, it depends where they fight.

Okay, I suppose, but I generally don't do scenarios. I'll just make it short...well, short as far as things I write.

Sephiroth:
-Will begin the fight in his AC Form.
-His equipped weapon will be his Masamune.
-Allowed three pieces of Materia.
-Has access to attacks used in-game with the exception of Heartless Angel due to it being implausible in the real world (for example; what is 1 HP, exactly?); Supernova will be treated as a large fireball fired from above.

Kuja:
-Will begin the fight in Trance.
-No equipped weapon; has access to Ultima.
-All in-game attacks (Flare Star and such) will be treated as they are shown in gameplay.

The battlefield will be the Midgar Ruins.

As it begins, Kuja and Sephiroth are standing atop neighboring skyscrapers. Kuja immediately flies up and back, attempting to draw first blood with Flare. Sephiroth, however, narrowly evades the large explosion by launching himself directly upward, though it causes the building he was previously standing on to crumble. He retaliates by hurling three Iakiri at Kuja, who counters with a powerful Thundaga Spell, the bolts of lightning intercepting the projectiles. By this time, Sephiroth has nearly closed the distance between himself and Kuja. The tip of his Masamune will just barely cut into Kuja's skin, so he takes a few swings at his opponent, only for each one to be just barely avoided by Kuja as he floats backwards elegantly. Eventually, he lands on another, nearby building, attempting to halt Sephiroth's advance with Flare Star.

As the burst of energy expands, Sephiroth charges forward, eventually getting caught in the blast just before it reaches its maximum circumference. However, the instant the edge of the Flare Star touches Sephiroth's back, he becomes obscured by a circle of energy. It doesn't prevent him from taking a bit of damage, though before becoming completely engulfed by the attack, he manages to teleport out of there. Kuja remains on his toes, scanning his environment and diligently watching his back. Of course, Sephiroth was a bit smarter than to appear right behind him, and instead reappears a few feet outside of Flare Star's range, at which point he telekinetically rips up chunks of debris to hurl at Kuja. As with before, Sephiroth was merely using this as a diversion to help him close the distance between himself and Kuja, and follows after the chunks of concrete.

Thinking quickly, Kuja casts Holy directly in front of him. The sphere of energy is formed and expands just as the debris is about to hit him. Instead of striking Kuja's body, they're merely absorbed into the blast. However, the instant the spell dissipated, Sephiroth burst out and took Kuja by surprise, giving him little time to react. He swings fiercely at Kuja, striking at him a total of eight times. The mage flies backwards, nimbly and acrobatically contorting his body so that the Masamune's tip flies past within inches of him. The last attack, however, cuts open a gash in Kuja's chest and slices off a lock of his silver hair. After his repeated eight-slash barrage, Sephiroth is forced to take a moment to bring his sword back to a ready stance, at which point Kuja brings about a rain of lightning bolts between the two of them. He uses this opportunity to once again place some distance between himself and Sephiroth, this time flying up into the open.

Kuja glares and fires an Ultima blast at Sephiroth, which he easily avoids. It comes around a second time, only for Sephiroth to intercept it with an Iakiri, which takes enough energy out of the blast for him to safely deflect it with his Masamune. However, Kuja launches a second beam, then another, and another, and still another until Sephiroth is dealing with somewhere close to a dozen blasts, agilely dipping and swerving through them as Kuja watches from above, looking down at his labor with a twisted grin on his face. Though he manages to "trick" them into hitting buildings and various other targets in a desperate attempt to slow them down, the blasts keep coming with unrivaled tenacity. Sephiroth eventually sees an opening, taking the chance to fly up to Kuja with the Ultima blasts in hot pursuit.

Kuja merely licks his lips in anticipation of striking the death blow, his palm pointed down at the incoming target. Kuja's hand begins to glow as Sephiroth approaches; he apparently wants to draw out his perceived hope of victory a few seconds longer. Once Sephiroth was close enough, the Tranced mage fired another Ultima beam straight down at him. His eyes widened in shock; Sephiroth is caught between two lethal attacks with nowhere to run. Kuja's triumphant, howling laughter can be heard from above as Sephiroth is struck by the Ultima blast. He's hurled downward by the force of the impact, sent straight into the barrage of pursuing beams. The projectiles quickly tear his body apart, rendering him a dissipated mass of J-Cells...

Could you explain to me a bit better why after the 1st paragraph you got lost? Basically I meant Sephiroth realizes Kuja isn't to be toyed with, and Kuja gets fed up and just uses Ultima.

- Kuja

It's not that I didn't understand what happened, I just don't really agree with it. Sephiroth's teleportation isn't instantaneous. There's a bit of delay. Kuja would easily be able to follow him and prepare.

Oh, and to TheCrystal's post...

1)Kuja didn't blow-up a planet, because there isn't any proof he did it. We can say he destroyed the surface of Terra, because this is what we saw in the FMV, and this is what Mikoto said. But blowing it up?! No. Just... No.
Not to mention that it doesn't make sense, because Terra is located in the core of Gaia. If he blew-up Terra, Gaia should have exploded too.

...What? It's stated blatantly in the game by Mikoto and I believe Amarant that Kuja destroyed "an entire world". The game itself tells us quite clearly that Kuja destroyed a planet. The Game>You. Perhaps he did merely destroy the surface, but even so, that's still far greater than anything Sephiroth did. It apparently didn't take him long at all to render the planet completely uninhabitable through his own, raw power. Regardless of whether or not he totally obliterated the planet (which you've yet to disprove that he did), destroying the surface of an entire planet in a matter of minutes still shows an amazing capacity for destruction. And I'm not really sure where you got the idea that Terra was in Gaia's core. The two are completely separate planets.

2) Sephiroth is waaaaaaaaaaaay faster than Kuja. We can see in some scenes of CC(one of Zack's DMW flasbacks, and in Nibel), that Seph can move faster than the eyes can see.
Kuja on the other hand, doesn't have any speed feat during the story.
Even if Kuja use magic, it will not help him much, because, 1) Post-Nibel Sephiroth can use magic without the aid of Materia, 2) Pre-Nibel Sephiroth was already immune to some types of magic, as seen in his fight wih Genesis, and 3) Kuja needs to charge his spells before shooting them, but Sephiroth can speedblitz him before that.

We have no idea how fast Kuja is, so I'll leave that be for a moment. However, I must point out that fast, anime-style combat seems to be the direction Square is taking Final Fantasy in, so I'd say it's safe to assume that Kuja can at least travel at reasonably fast velocities.

However, your other points are perfectly refutable. If Post-Nibelheim Sephiroth can use Magic without the aid of Materia, I really don't see it helping him much against someone who specializes in magic himself. He never uses it in the storyline and prefers to rely on melee combat, and he never actually uses more than a couple spells in gameplay. I wouldn't say that relying on magic is particularly smart. Second, we have no idea how far Sephiroth's resistance to magic goes. Remember, Angeal took a direct hit to the face from one of Genesis's fireballs and wasn't significantly damaged in any way. Obviously, they aren't incredibly powerful. Third, we've never seen Kuja charging up his spells in the storyline. The only time he's actually been shown charging anything was that first Ultima blast, and I have reason to believe that he was simply doing that for theatrical purposes. All subsequent blasts were fired instantaneously.

3) Because of his connection with Jenova, Sephiroth can regenerate parts of his body(Bizarro did it), or even his entire body(after Kadaj(a spirit-body containing part of Sephiroth's will) drunk the cells of that box, Sephiroth used them to create a completely new body for him).

Well, sure! Bizarro Sephiroth most certainly did have the ability to regenerate. Too bad it was far from instantaneous regeneration, and that was the only time he was ever shown to regenerate anything in any reasonable period of time. If he could regenerate instantly, why didn't he do so during the Safer Sephiroth battle? This [incredibly slow] regeneration seems to be exclusive to Bizarro Sephiroth. Also, Sephiroth is incapable of regenerating his entire body of his own will. Certain circumstances need to be fulfilled before that can happen. In Advent Children, he needed two very specific things; a host body and a concentration of J-Cells. Sephiroth didn't revive himself. Kadaj revived him when he merged with the Jenova Cells in the box. I honestly don't see how you think Sephiroth would utilize this in a combat situation. If his body gets torn to shreds, he's not going to be able to bring himself back and continue fighting. To say that Sephiroth has "regenerative abilities" (or at least regeneration that could be effectively used in combat) is just ridiculous.

3) Kuja can "teleport", but from what the evidence show us, it's not instant. He needs to open a portal, and enter it(like the portal to Memoria). Problem is... His enemy will not wait while he does that.
On the other hand, Kuja can instantly teleport other people. He did that with Zidane and the party after the fight with Necron.
If Seph isn't fast enough, Kuja could teleport him to another dimension, and be the victor of the battle.

I don't remember actually seeing him teleport, but to be fair, it's been a while since I've played through FFIX. Could you link me to a video showing him teleporting? Aside from that, though, the party wasn't teleported. They were killed by Kuja's Ultima. The specifics of that part of the game aren't very clear, but we can hear the audible moans of distressed souls in the background, so...

4) Kuja is more durable than Sephiroth(Bahamut vs Kuja on the Iifa Tree), but that's countered by Sephiroth's regeneration.

*cough* You mean the regeneration that Sephiroth doesn't have...? Or...rather, the regeneration that Sephiroth seems to have in one of his forms, and is incredibly slow?

5) Both of them are good at magic. Kuja seems to be stronger at that department, but lets not forget about Bizarro and Safer Sephiroth who had a lot of magic spells.
Not to mention that Seph have Jenova's special abilities, like: telekinesis, intangibility, illusions, telepathy, flight, etc.

Kuja is a very powerful mage, but Sephiroth is a powerful mage, a very good physical fighter, and have some special powers granted to him by the J-cells.
He have the advantage.

Kuja is VASTLY more powerful than Sephiroth magically. In fact, Sephiroth never really showed himself to be a particularly powerful mage; just because he has magic doesn't mean he's at all good at using it. We also have no reason to believe that Kuja is a slouch when it comes to his physical traits. The only real example we have is when he took a direct hit from Bahamut and emerged with nothing more than a scratch. I'd say that's evidence of some sort of superhuman traits on his part.

This would be longer, but I'm just about out of time...Sorry, TheCrystal. A more detailed response is in-order, but I'll have to go into greater depth tomorrow.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

It's true that Sephiroth could evade one Ultima beam, but Kuja can fire them one-after-another quite rapidly, and each one travels at an incredibly fast pace given what we've seen of most fireballs/various magical projectiles in Final Fantasy. They also don't seem to stop after colliding with a target, meaning Sephiroth wouldn't be able to stop them by standing in front of, oh, say, a building or rock and moving out of the way at the last second. However, while he'd be able to close the distance between himself and Kuja if he only had to deal with one or two Ultima blasts, that'd be fine, but Kuja fired at least ten shots off in rapid succession (I think I counted about a dozen in the clip where he destroys Terra, but I'm not sure...). In fact, Kuja showed the ability to fire multiple beams at once, up to, at the very least, four at a time. That means Sephiroth would be dealing with over a dozen virtually indestructible, high velocity beams of magical energy capable of locking onto and following after him. He wouldn't be able to deal with that for very long.

You do realize in the Dissidia Trailer Tidus who is nowhere near as fast as Sephiroth avoided Kujas magic attacks?

But if Sephiroth tried teleporting, he'd get bombarded by the Ultimas before he could actually get from one place to another. You're forgetting that Sephiroth's teleportation seems to take a second or two to "prepare". During that time, Kuja could hit him with an Ultima, and the rest of the beams would then catch up to him...and that's assuming that the other blasts wouldn't have already hit their target. Also, if Sephiroth were to charge directly toward Kuja, I think he'd have enough sense to simply fire another Ultima blast at him before he gets too close. You're forgetting that, the more time Kuja has, the more Ultimas he fires. He's not limited to the Ultimas already out there, and given Kuja's incredibly sharp mind (he must be an ingenious thinker given that he manipulated a kingdom's ruler and threw the world's three major kingdoms into chaos), I think he'd know enough to blast him down before he gets too close. Flying straight toward someone who specializes in long-range combat is probably the stupidest thing a melee fighter can do unless they KNOW that they're capable of dodging/deflecting all of their projectiles.

I'm not sure how many Ultimas Kuja can produce at once, the Cutscene suggests he can summon quite a few. Even so, like I said if Tidus can dodge magic blasts from Kuja I'm pretty sure Sephiroth can also .

Cool. I've been practicing kick boxing, Jiu-Jitsu, and Hapkido for close to a year now, but I've been considering switching over to Muay Thai or simply a place that explicitly teaches Mixed Martial Arts. Anyway, that's another thing; does Kuja start out in his Base Form or Trance? Sephiroth starts the fight in his strongest form, so shouldn't Kuja? His Super Trance seems to be permanent, so once he Trances, he doesn't change back (I'm guessing) until he's beaten up or near death/dead...

Thats good to hear, I've made some MMA threads, and nobody replies to them . Maybe we should spar sometime =D. As far as forms are concerned, its debatable, because from what I saw, Kuja wasn't able to Trance on his own, he needed the souls of the Invincible. It would be better for fights sake if he started in base then changed to Trance.

I don't see how Sephiroth became a god. It was pretty much stated that he would need to have Meteor hit the Planet in order for him to become a god. It's true that the song playing during the Bizarro Sephiroth Battle was called "Birth of a God", but I take that to mean more "A god is going to be born" or "A god is in the process of being born" rather than saying that Sephiroth had already become a god. I mean, it was stated quite clearly that Sephiroth's goal was to become a god by having Meteor strike the Planet, waiting for the Lifestream to come to the wound he created, and absorbing it all. Since Meteor never hit, Sephiroth never became a god. He came extraordinarily close, but it never happened.

I think I mentioned it was debatable. But yes you are correct.

A high body count doesn't necessarily make for a strong villain, though. Sephiroth killed ShinRa employees and villagers. That's about it. You have to examine WHO they killed rather than how many people they killed when talking about who is the more powerful villain. Granted, Kuja never really killed anyone particularly powerful, either, so that basically makes it a moot point. All we know is that Sephiroth can kill sailors and scientists, neither of whom are famous for their superhuman combat proficiency. If Sephiroth had killed an entire building full of 2nd and 1st Class SOLDIER operatives, then I could understand you making that argument. However, he only really kills normal people who are vastly inferior to him.

Well of course not lol, but if you want to argue it that way Sephiroth killed Aerith, and Kuja at best killed Garland(physically), since Garland was able to communicate with Zidane, some say he never truly died. But the point I was trying to make was that Sephiroths body count was higher then Kujas, I agree whole heartidly Body Count =/= Superior Villian.

But the strength of Materia varies. However, I'm...not really sure that Materia would do much for Sephiroth. Kuja has proven himself capable of taking direct hits from the strongest of FFIX's Summons (or at least one of them), and the IX Summons seem much more powerful than the VII Summons. That said, I don't think Summon Materia would help him much. Command Materia is...very vague. Why do you need a piece of Materia to hit someone particularly hard or to steal from them...? I doubt it's canon, anyway. As for Magic Materia, Kuja vastly outclasses Sephiroth in terms of magic, so it would be rather stupid of Sephiroth to go against Kuja Spell-for-Spell. I can't really think of any three pieces of Materia that would do him a whole lot of good. Besides, the fact is that we really have no idea what most Materia even does. Whenever we see Materia in the storyline, it pretty much always acts differently from what we see of it in gameplay. Don't worry about your choice of words, though, I understand. I'm just confused as to what most pieces of Materia do as far as the storyline goes...

I'll get back to you on that I'll go ahead and find some materia Sephiroth can use, although magic materia wouldn't be a bad idea. Now Bahamut Sin has the same power & ability as regular Bahamut from FF IX, I think Bahamut ZERO could own FF IX Bahamut =D. Perhaps we could give Sephiroth Shadow Flare?

Okay, I suppose, but I generally don't do scenarios. I'll just make it short...well, short as far as things I write.

Sephiroth:
-Will begin the fight in his AC Form.
-His equipped weapon will be his Masamune.
-Allowed three pieces of Materia.
-Has access to attacks used in-game with the exception of Heartless Angel due to it being implausible in the real world (for example; what is 1 HP, exactly?); Supernova will be treated as a large fireball fired from above.

Kuja:
-Will begin the fight in Trance.
-No equipped weapon; has access to Ultima.
-All in-game attacks (Flare Star and such) will be treated as they are shown in gameplay.

Ok sounds good

The battlefield will be the Midgar Ruins.

As it begins, Kuja and Sephiroth are standing atop neighboring skyscrapers. Kuja immediately flies up and back, attempting to draw first blood with Flare. Sephiroth, however, narrowly evades the large explosion by launching himself directly upward, though it causes the building he was previously standing on to crumble. He retaliates by hurling three Iakiri at Kuja, who counters with a powerful Thundaga Spell, the bolts of lightning intercepting the projectiles. By this time, Sephiroth has nearly closed the distance between himself and Kuja. The tip of his Masamune will just barely cut into Kuja's skin, so he takes a few swings at his opponent, only for each one to be just barely avoided by Kuja as he floats backwards elegantly. Eventually, he lands on another, nearby building, attempting to halt Sephiroth's advance with Flare Star.

K

As the burst of energy expands, Sephiroth charges forward, eventually getting caught in the blast just before it reaches its maximum circumference. However, the instant the edge of the Flare Star touches Sephiroth's back, he becomes obscured by a circle of energy. It doesn't prevent him from taking a bit of damage, though before becoming completely engulfed by the attack, he manages to teleport out of there. Kuja remains on his toes, scanning his environment and diligently watching his back. Of course, Sephiroth was a bit smarter than to appear right behind him, and instead reappears a few feet outside of Flare Star's range, at which point he telekinetically rips up chunks of debris to hurl at Kuja. As with before, Sephiroth was merely using this as a diversion to help him close the distance between himself and Kuja, and follows after the chunks of concrete.

I'm Pretty sure Sephiroth wouldn't be dumb enough to get caught in a Flare Star, but its fair since it didn't kill him. I like where this is going =D

Thinking quickly, Kuja casts Holy directly in front of him. The sphere of energy is formed and expands just as the debris is about to hit him. Instead of striking Kuja's body, they're merely absorbed into the blast. However, the instant the spell dissipated, Sephiroth burst out and took Kuja by surprise, giving him little time to react. He swings fiercely at Kuja, striking at him a total of eight times. The mage flies backwards, nimbly and acrobatically contorting his body so that the Masamune's tip flies past within inches of him. The last attack, however, cuts open a gash in Kuja's chest and slices off a lock of his silver hair. After his repeated eight-slash barrage, Sephiroth is forced to take a moment to bring his sword back to a ready stance, at which point Kuja brings about a rain of lightning bolts between the two of them. He uses this opportunity to once again place some distance between himself and Sephiroth, this time flying up into the open.

Kuja glares and fires an Ultima blast at Sephiroth, which he easily avoids. It comes around a second time, only for Sephiroth to intercept it with an Iakiri, which takes enough energy out of the blast for him to safely deflect it with his Masamune. However, Kuja launches a second beam, then another, and another, and still another until Sephiroth is dealing with somewhere close to a dozen blasts, agilely dipping and swerving through them as Kuja watches from above, looking down at his labor with a twisted grin on his face. Though he manages to "trick" them into hitting buildings and various other targets in a desperate attempt to slow them down, the blasts keep coming with unrivaled tenacity. Sephiroth eventually sees an opening, taking the chance to fly up to Kuja with the Ultima blasts in hot pursuit.

Kuja merely licks his lips in anticipation of striking the death blow, his palm pointed down at the incoming target. Kuja's hand begins to glow as Sephiroth approaches; he apparently wants to draw out his perceived hope of victory a few seconds longer. Once Sephiroth was close enough, the Tranced mage fired another Ultima beam straight down at him. His eyes widened in shock; Sephiroth is caught between two lethal attacks with nowhere to run. Kuja's triumphant, howling laughter can be heard from above as Sephiroth is struck by the Ultima blast. He's hurled downward by the force of the impact, sent straight into the barrage of pursuing beams. The projectiles quickly tear his body apart, rendering him a dissipated mass of J-Cells...

I noticed you mentioned Sephiroth cut off Kujas Silver Hair, implying he was in his base form, I skimmed after that and didn't see any mentioned of Kuja trancing. Kuja isn't as powerful as you give him credit for here in his base form, In his Trance form, I wouldn't put it past him =P.

You also make Kuja seem more tactical. Kuja relies on big explosions to win fights, not so much brains. However the same could be said about Sephiroth(without the explosions), did Sephiroth even use Super Nova? D:

Oh, and to TheCrystal's post...

...What? It's stated blatantly in the game by Mikoto and I believe Amarant that Kuja destroyed "an entire world". The game itself tells us quite clearly that Kuja destroyed a planet. The Game>You. Perhaps he did merely destroy the surface, but even so, that's still far greater than anything Sephiroth did. It apparently didn't take him long at all to render the planet completely uninhabitable through his own, raw power. Regardless of whether or not he totally obliterated the planet (which you've yet to disprove that he did), destroying the surface of an entire planet in a matter of minutes still shows an amazing capacity for destruction. And I'm not really sure where you got the idea that Terra was in Gaia's core. The two are completely separate planets.

Mikoto while the gang was in BMV(BlackMage Village) that Kuja was zomg powerful and destroyed an entire planet. Now im gonna be a smartass here, and say perhaps he didn'tcompletely destroy Terra, but he did do quite a number on it. Now if Mikoto said he "annihilated" a whole planet then yeah. Again we Don't know if Sephiroth can or cant destroy a planet!!!!!!!!

We have no idea how fast Kuja is, so I'll leave that be for a moment. However, I must point out that fast, anime-style combat seems to be the direction Square is taking Final Fantasy in, so I'd say it's safe to assume that Kuja can at least travel at reasonably fast velocities.

If you watch the Dissidia trailers Kuja has average speed, he makes up for this with his destructive capabilities.

However, your other points are perfectly refutable. If Post-Nibelheim Sephiroth can use Magic without the aid of Materia, I really don't see it helping him much against someone who specializes in magichimself. He never uses it in the storyline and prefers to rely on melee combat, and he never actually uses more than a couple spells in gameplay. I wouldn't say that relying on magic is particularly smart. Second, we have no idea how far Sephiroth's resistance to magic goes. Remember, Angeal took a direct hit to the face from one of Genesis's fireballs and wasn't significantly damaged in any way. Obviously, they aren't incredibly powerful. Third, we've never seen Kuja charging up his spells in the storyline. The only time he's actually been shown charging anything was that first Ultima blast, and I have reason to believe that he was simply doing that for theatrical purposes. All subsequent blasts were fired instantaneously.

Heh...you gave me an idea, Perhaps the 3 materia ill choose will boost Sephiroths magic powers, Sephiroths Shadow Flare is powerful, and could be a good counter to Kujas Ultima, with a boost of course.

Well, sure! Bizarro Sephiroth most certainly did have the ability to regenerate. Too bad it was far from instantaneous regeneration, and that was the only time he was ever shown to regenerate anything in any reasonable period of time. If he could regenerate instantly, why didn't he do so during the Safer Sephiroth battle? This [incredibly slow] regeneration seems to be exclusive to Bizarro Sephiroth. Also, Sephiroth is incapable of regenerating his entire body of his own will. Certain circumstances need to be fulfilled before that can happen. In Advent Children, he needed two very specific things; a host body and a concentration of J-Cells. Sephiroth didn't revive himself. Kadaj revived him when he merged with the Jenova Cells in the box. I honestly don't see how you think Sephiroth would utilize this in a combat situation. If his body gets torn to shreds, he's not going to be able to bring himself back and continue fighting. To say that Sephiroth has "regenerative abilities" (or at least regeneration that could be effectively used in combat) is just ridiculous.


I don't remember actually seeing him teleport, but to be fair, it's been a while since I've played through FFIX. Could you link me to a video showing him teleporting? Aside from that, though, the party wasn't teleported. They were killed by Kuja's Ultima. The specifics of that part of the game aren't very clear, but we can hear the audible moans of distressed souls in the background, so...*cough* You mean the regeneration that Sephiroth doesn't have...? Or...rather, the regeneration that Sephiroth seems to have in one of his forms, and is incredibly slow?

Regen is Regen, but its kind of like a more powerful FF IX regen where you get like 300 hp back every so often XD. Perhaps if Sephiroth is badly injured he can hide and recover, not alot but still recover.

Kuja is VASTLY more powerful than Sephiroth magically. In fact, Sephiroth never really showed himself to be a particularly powerful mage; just because he has magic doesn't mean he's at all good at using it. We also have no reason to believe that Kuja is a slouch when it comes to his physical traits. The only real example we have is when he took a direct hit from Bahamut and emerged with nothing more than a scratch. I'd say that's evidence of some sort of superhuman traits on his part.

Sephiroth is a decent magic user, but on par with Kuja. For all I know Kujas dragon could've blocked the attack, but the text does imply Kuja took a hit from him.

This would be longer, but I'm just about out of time...Sorry, TheCrystal. A more detailed response is in-order, but I'll have to go into greater depth tomorrow.

Reply to my comments, then I'll post another scenario and you tell me what you think. Btw your scenario sounded like some kind of Fan-Fiction XD. Never the less it was good.

- Kuja

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

You do realize in the Dissidia Trailer Tidus who is nowhere near as fast as Sephiroth avoided Kujas magic attacks?

I believe that was also Base Kuja that Tidus was evading. There also weren't as many individual projectiles as far as potential Ultima blasts go. Also, Tidus evaded them by "tricking" them into hitting another target rather than himself. That wouldn't work with an Ultima beam, given what we've seen of them so far.

I'm not sure how many Ultimas Kuja can produce at once, the Cutscene suggests he can summon quite a few. Even so, like I said if Tidus can dodge magic blasts from Kuja I'm pretty sure Sephiroth can also .

See above.

Thats good to hear, I've made some MMA threads, and nobody replies to them . Maybe we should spar sometime =D. As far as forms are concerned, its debatable, because from what I saw, Kuja wasn't able to Trance on his own, he needed the souls of the Invincible. It would be better for fights sake if he started in base then changed to Trance.

I'd probably be systematically dominated. I'm not very experienced yet, but sure, if I'm ever in the area, I'll look you up. In any case, yes, Kuja couldn't Trance on his own...until he absorbed the souls in the Invincible, after which he was able to Trance of his own power. The absorption of those souls doesn't seem to be temporary, considering the Trance itself was apparently quite permanent. Saying Kuja can't Trance without the souls in the Invincible is really no different than saying that Sephiroth can't reach his AC Form without his J-Cells. Both the souls and the Jenova Cells are part of Kuja and Sephiroth, respectively. Once Sephiroth absorbed the cells, they were integrated into his body permanently, but likewise, Kuja also seemed to permanently acquire the souls on the Invincible. There was no indication that he wasn't able to keep them, anyway. However, if Kuja were to start off in his Base Form, then yes, Sephiroth would probably take the battle without much difficulty...assuming he, himself, starts the fight in his strongest form.

Well of course not lol, but if you want to argue it that way Sephiroth killed Aerith, and Kuja at best killed Garland(physically), since Garland was able to communicate with Zidane, some say he never truly died. But the point I was trying to make was that Sephiroths body count was higher then Kujas, I agree whole heartidly Body Count =/= Superior Villian.

I'm not really sure if Kuja's Sparta Kick counts, though I'd say that killing Garland could be considered more of an accomplishment than stabbing an unarmed, unaware flower girl in the back. But whatever, I suppose.

I'll get back to you on that I'll go ahead and find some materia Sephiroth can use, although magic materia wouldn't be a bad idea. Now Bahamut Sin has the same power & ability as regular Bahamut from FF IX, I think Bahamut ZERO could own FF IX Bahamut =D. Perhaps we could give Sephiroth Shadow Flare?

Slow down, there, Trigger. Bahamut SIN looks to be far weaker than IX Bahamut, first off. IX Bahamut's attacks charged much faster and seemed to do more damage individually than Bahamut SIN's with the possible exception of SIN's final Mega Flare...which took a HELL of a long time to charge, anyway. We were also given no evidence as to which of Bahamut's forms in FFVII was the strongest. I'm not sure where you get either of those facts from (Bahamut SIN>Bahamut IX and Bahamut SIN<Bahamut ZERO)...

I'm Pretty sure Sephiroth wouldn't be dumb enough to get caught in a Flare Star, but its fair since it didn't kill him. I like where this is going =D

The idea was actually that he was flying AWAY from it, but couldn't get away fast enough and was just barely caught up in it. If you look at the attack in gameplay (Flare Star), it starts out somewhat of a small sphere but gradually expands into a much larger radius.

I noticed you mentioned Sephiroth cut off Kujas Silver Hair, implying he was in his base form, I skimmed after that and didn't see any mentioned of Kuja trancing. Kuja isn't as powerful as you give him credit for here in his base form, In his Trance form, I wouldn't put it past him =P.

You also make Kuja seem more tactical. Kuja relies on big explosions to win fights, not so much brains. However the same could be said about Sephiroth(without the explosions), did Sephiroth even use Super Nova? D:

That's just an oversight on my part. I was a bit apprehensive about making a scenario considering I've never done it before. I found it very awkward to write. Just replace "silver hair" with "red feathers". Kuja was intended to be in Trance from the start. I don't honestly think that Kuja could beat Sephiroth in his Base Form...That's just ridiculous. In fact, even if we put SOLDIER Sephiroth against Base Kuja, I think Sephiroth would probably win. The only time I can see Kuja overpowering Sephiroth is with Trance, which is mainly because the gap between Base Kuja and Trance Kuja seems to be ridiculously large, whereas Sephiroth doesn't seem to gain THAT much in-between forms as far as totally new abilities go.

Mikoto while the gang was in BMV(BlackMage Village) that Kuja was zomg powerful and destroyed an entire planet. Now im gonna be a smartass here, and say perhaps he didn'tcompletely destroy Terra, but he did do quite a number on it. Now if Mikoto said he "annihilated" a whole planet then yeah. Again we Don't know if Sephiroth can or cant destroy a planet!!!!!!!!

I'm not really sure if we can fault her for not choosing her words PERFECTLY considering her home planet was going up in flames around her. The gist of it was that Kuja "destroyed a world". However, while we don't KNOW that Sephiroth can or can't destroy the planet, it's a pretty safe bet to assume that he cannot, because, if he had the destructive capacity for destroying or seriously wounding a planet, he would've used it instead of Meteor/Geostigma. Really, if Sephiroth could've just rendered the planet uninhabitable and turned it into a vessel right then and there in AC, I honestly don't see why he didn't. He had no reason not to, anyway. It's not like he couldn't have just left Cloud alive to torment him in the post-apocalyptic world. As far as FFVII goes, if he wanted to wound the planet and had the power to do so without the use of Meteor, I really think he would've just attacked instead of going through all that trouble to find a specific magical rock that would call another, larger rock from space that would (several months after being summoned) arrive and do the job for him.

If you watch the Dissidia trailers Kuja has average speed, he makes up for this with his destructive capabilities.

I really don't think Kuja is ever going to be known for his speed, of course. I'm just saying that he probably has enough speed to avoid getting completely dominated by Sephiroth without at least being able to get some distance between them.

Heh...you gave me an idea, Perhaps the 3 materia ill choose will boost Sephiroths magic powers, Sephiroths Shadow Flare is powerful, and could be a good counter to Kujas Ultima, with a boost of course.

I'm not really sure where you get the idea that Shadow Flare could ever conceivably be a match for Kuja's Ultima, or even for one of Kuja's normal spells. Shadow Flare takes the form of...well, some sort of explosion, which is basically what Holy, Flare, and Flare Star look like. Most spells used by Final Bosses in RPGs tend to look quite destructive; it's sort of a given anymore. Regardless of how things look in gameplay, Kuja was simply described as being a godly mage. From that, I can infer that he's leagues above Sephiroth (at least in this respect), whose magical proficiency was never even touched on as far as the storyline goes. All we know is that he has some sort of magical potency.

Regen is Regen, but its kind of like a more powerful FF IX regen where you get like 300 hp back every so often XD. Perhaps if Sephiroth is badly injured he can hide and recover, not alot but still recover.

But he only seems to have any sort of regeneration as Bizarro Sephiroth. He never displays it at any other time in the AC Compilation, as far as instances of instantaneous regeneration go. I just don't see any reason to believe that Sephiroth can regenerate in any form other than Bizarro Sephiroth.

Sephiroth is a decent magic user, but on par with Kuja. For all I know Kujas dragon could've blocked the attack, but the text does imply Kuja took a hit from him.

I think it's pretty obvious that Kuja took the hit. He credited Bahamut with hurting him, not with getting past his dragon and hurting him. It's pretty much the same argument as before; if Kuja were hit with a chunk of debris raised by the attack, why would he give Bahamut credit for injuring him? It's not like the debris would've done any less damage if flung by a different gigantic explosion. Additionally, had the dragon taken the hit, I don't see why Kuja would've been damaged at all considering the dragon was still there after the attack itself.

Reply to my comments, then I'll post another scenario and you tell me what you think. Btw your scenario sounded like some kind of Fan-Fiction XD. Never the less it was good.

- Kuja

Oh, gawd, not a fan fiction...That's why I never write scenarios...

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Slow down, there, Trigger. Bahamut SIN looks to be far weaker than IX Bahamut, first off. IX Bahamut's attacks charged much faster and seemed to do more damage individually than Bahamut SIN's with the possible exception of SIN's final Mega Flare...which took a HELL of a long time to charge, anyway. We were also given no evidence as to which of Bahamut's forms in FFVII was the strongest. I'm not sure where you get either of those facts from (Bahamut SIN>Bahamut IX and Bahamut SIN<Bahamut ZERO)...

Crap!!! I meant to say VII, not IX. I humbly apologize for this /bonk.

I'm not really sure where you get the idea that Shadow Flare could ever conceivably be a match for Kuja's Ultima, or even for one of Kuja's normal spells. Shadow Flare takes the form of...well, some sort of explosion, which is basically what Holy, Flare, and Flare Star look like. Most spells used by Final Bosses in RPGs tend to look quite destructive; it's sort of a given anymore. Regardless of how things look in gameplay, Kuja was simply described as being a godly mage. From that, I can infer that he's leagues above Sephiroth (at least in this respect), whose magical proficiency was never even touched on as far as the storyline goes. All we know is that he has some sort of magical potency.

But he only seems to have any sort of regeneration as Bizarro Sephiroth. He never displays it at any other time in the AC Compilation, as far as instances of instantaneous regeneration go. I just don't see any reason to believe that Sephiroth can regenerate in any form other than Bizarro Sephiroth.

Perhaps I worded that wrong, I meant it can ounter some of Kujas magic spells, but no not Ultima. Damn I'm 0/2 with bad ording today D:.

I think it's pretty obvious that Kuja took the hit. He credited Bahamut with hurting him, not with getting past his dragon and hurting him. It's pretty much the same argument as before; if Kuja were hit with a chunk of debris raised by the attack, why would he give Bahamut credit for injuring him? It's not like the debris would've done any less damage if flung by a different gigantic explosion. Additionally, had the dragon taken the hit, I don't see why Kuja would've been damaged at all considering the dragon was still there after the attack itself.

I was just beng a smartass, I do believe I mentioned he credited Bahamut.

Oh, gawd, not a fan fiction...That's why I never write scenarios...

Sceanrio is a Scenario, And a FanFiction is a Fanfiction =P, Today I've actually thought of a good story to compliment this, I'll post it later.

- Kuja

 

[Valmelthos]

i think this is a good thread because of the fact that th two are quite similar in ways. They were both created i guess for sinister purposes, but i can only really find a little bit of understanding and sympathy for Kuja, because he was made to be defeated by Zidane wasnt he? He seemed to be used just until the point where he wasnt needed anymore, and thats sortve harsh, especially because he was told from the start. Plus he repented, sortve.... And as for the fact he destroyed a planet, i didnt like Terra, it looked stupid and everyone had tails...

Sephiroth on the other hand, yes he was created, but he didnt actually have to do any of the things he did. He was a much loved (or at least respected) as a hero from SOLDIER, and his mental flip-out in Nibelheim seemed like overreacting.... he knew others were created, he even tried to convince cloud he was, but he seemed to have this "im different" complex which did my head in. The things he did effected families directly, for example cloud and tifa's respective parents, whereas Kuja could be compared to any military leader (like Garnets mum who attacked cities instead of families)

Sephiroth was vicious whereas Kuja was just jealous and angry that he was being used. obviously im completely biased lol. However i think Kuja was the better villain, because of the repension, but also because he had more depth and had a jealous insanity to him, wheras (with the exception of Nibelheim) Sephiroth seemed quite sane and sure of every decision.
Dont have much else to say..... KUJA RULES.....

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

i think this is a good thread because of the fact that th two are quite similar in ways. They were both created i guess for sinister purposes, but i can only really find a little bit of understanding and sympathy for Kuja, because he was made to be defeated by Zidane wasnt he? He seemed to be used just until the point where he wasnt needed anymore, and thats sortve harsh, especially because he was told from the start. Plus he repented, sortve.... And as for the fact he destroyed a planet, i didnt like Terra, it looked stupid and everyone had tails...

I'm glad you like my thread , I pride myself in making threads people find appealing.

Sephiroth on the other hand, yes he was created, but he didnt actually have to do any of the things he did. He was a much loved (or at least respected) as a hero from SOLDIER, and his mental flip-out in Nibelheim seemed like overreacting.... he knew others were created, he even tried to convince cloud he was, but he seemed to have this "im different" complex which did my head in. The things he did effected families directly, for example cloud and tifa's respective parents, whereas Kuja could be compared to any military leader (like Garnets mum who attacked cities instead of families)

Humm...No no no, How is Kuja like a militiary leader? If by this you mean because he caused Brahne to destroy those places...then I can see what you mean, but if you really think about it.

Brahne was the one who destroyed those places not Kuja, Kuja showed hes has raw power when he blew up Terra.

I see Sephiroth as the cunning Villian, while Kuja is the Theatric typ,e don't you agree?

Sephiroth was vicious whereas Kuja was just jealous and angry that he was being used. obviously im completely biased lol. However i think Kuja was the better villain, because of the repension, but also because he had more depth and had a jealous insanity to him, wheras (with the exception of Nibelheim) Sephiroth seemed quite sane and sure of every decision.
Dont have much else to say..... KUJA RULES.....

No problem at least you haven't used phrases like "Zomgs Kuja blew upz a planet he ownz Sepirath" or "Kuja is teh mahn, and Sephiroth is a Mamas boy".

Do you mind telling me what you thought about my review of the matchup ?

- Kuja