Male genital mutilation (circumcision)

[Davey Gaga]

For the 1st part: I always figure ppl educate themselves before offering themselves to a debate. I can't be responsible for someone else being wrong.

But they're not, and neither are you. This debate relates to opinions, which by definition cannot be (in)correct. Regarding studies, you've not scientifically proven anything, and since they're scientific studies...well, that's what you need to do. You have not done that. Without digressing too far about debate etiquette...read the rules pinned at the top of The Sleeping Forest.

The insufferable ignorance thing.. umm were you agreeing with me, or were u being condescending?

Definitely not agreeing.

And for the last part.. I've been saying that well before you_ It doesn't matter. I never said ppl can't be entitled to their opinion, I just gave a rational explanation that extra foreskin isn't the golden treasure of sexuality.

Nor is it at all necessary.

It's a matter of physics_

How on Earth does physics come in to a debate about circumcision?

I have beat you at every corner.

Repeating your opinion (which largely seems to be based around acceptable religious behaviour) isn't winning, so no you haven't. As I said in a PM, this isn't about winning, either.

 

[Busta]

In fact, only contemporary Christians like to think themselves above the laws of the Old Testament. Why,, is beyond me. I think they just like to take the easy route through only obeying what fits their lifestyle.

A fact? So it's true? Like, you can prove it, but you didn't with anything you said. Instead you said "think" meaning you have no idea whatsoever, but you like to throw out your opinions after bashing someone else's and a group of people calling it fact.

And it's "only" Contemporary Christians that think themselves above the Old Testament? What does that even mean? What's the difference between a Contemporary Christian and any other type of Christian in this circumstance?

Come onnnn. Someone with so much self-proclaimed religious knowledge should at least know the basics of fact vs. opinions and the frowned upon use of exaggeration with such a bold accusation.

 

[blakstang98]

Alright, Warbs already threw out a warning about the mudslinging. This is the final warning, the thread is closed next time we have to intervene. And as Kerrigan said, debates are not about winning anything. Shoving your opinion down someones throat ad nausium is not winning. At the end of the day, nobody will have a different opinion about circumcision. So forcing someone to accept yours means you don't win, it just means you're not accepting the fact that someone disagrees.

 

[RedJeepXJ]

It isn't a sacrifice, it's an order by God. Like not eating the blood of animals and things of that sort. There is no presumption in the Bible that indicates circumcision as a restriction of sexuality. It was simply what God posed as clean.
And, what you say about how beneficial extra foreskin is.. this is what it all breaks down to- and for God's sake, this will be my last post

last post...really?

because nobody can argue with this small little fact:

Millions of people are doing perfectly fine with their circumcised penises. What is the foreskin doing that is so beneficial when others are doing just as well? Nothing. There is no other answer.
I WIN

many people do jsut fine without limbs, or with only one eye, or can only hear in one ear, some might be missing toes, just because they get by doesn't mean they aren't missing out, that's not a fact that says it's ok, women who are circumcised do "just fine" and often say it's a good thing, because their culure says it is, just like america and the male foreskin

What trauma? It happends after birth.

yeah chopping up a baby after birth can't be painful....are you serious???? First read the book Circumcision: the hidden trauma, there are many complications such as reduced attacment to parents from the breastfeeding stage on, which signal less of an emotional bond which can affect a child for life

The children don't remember it.

but yet more and more reports say they can, at least to the point of effecting them developmentally, genitally mutilated babies will experience more pain at vaccinations throughout childhood, right there says they do remember and it does effect them for life

I have never met a man that was traumatized by circumsion nor one that gave second thoughts about it.

Are you sure, not many people talk publicaly about it, ogf the few people I have discussed it with the view has not been so positive (and keep in mind I did not state my viewpoint beforehand)

With pleasure, you wouldn't know the difference if you hadn't felt better pleasure.

which keep in mind I restored and did feel more pleasure from having a closer to natural penis

And who is to say that men with foreskin enjoy sex more?

from personal experience I can

No noe can feel what another person feels.

personal experience

I also don't live in a clean place (inner city atm, when I turn on water, I hate to wait for a few seconds so it's not rusty). I would be more worried about cleanliness issues with my son not circumsized.

running water is all you need, it's just as easy if not easier then cleaning the female anatomy

In the situation of the guy who was not circumsized and did so to be like everyone else, he gets to remember the pain now. You have it after birth and you don't remember.

except that babies are effected for life, mentally and of course sexually....

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

You guys are turning this into an extreme.

Circumcision is never going to stop totally and it will never happen to everyone either. Whatever you say won't change that. You're free to believe what you want but you have to respect the other side too..especially in an issue like this where neither side is wrong.

Let's be clear..cutting the foreskin on your penis is not cutting off a limb..it's like shaving or clipping your toenails at most. If this was about cutting off you actual penis that would be a different story but it isn't. Your foreskin is not something that you can't honestly do without or something that's determined to harm you either.

I happen to like having mine for what it's worth..some people won't. It's not my job to tell them what they should do, but I would rather it be only that person's choice and not have it made for them when they're too small to say no.

 

[RedJeepXJ]

You guys are turning this into an extreme.

Circumcision is never going to stop totally and it will never happen to everyone either. Whatever you say won't change that. You're free to believe what you want but you have to respect the other side too..especially in an issue like this where neither side is wrong.

but that is where you are wrong, there is a very clear right or wrong, you act like it is only a cosmetic thing when it for a fact removes the most sensitive parts of the penis and it changes the mechanics of how a penis works not to mention the human rights issues

Let's be clear..cutting the foreskin on your penis is not cutting off a limb..it's like shaving or clipping your toenails at most.

WHAT!!!!!!! please think about that some more, please. fingernail/hair grows back a foreskin DOES NOT!!!

If this was about cutting off you actual penis that would be a different story but it isn't.

a foreskin is part of the penis, how much is ok? inner foreskin skin ok? outer foreskin skin ok? shaft skin ok? glans ok? frenulum ok? where does it become wrong? removign all of those would still leave some penis, a penis by design includes the foreskin as an important part

Your foreskin is not something that you can't honestly do without or something that's determined to harm you either.

a women can go without a clitoris, anyone can live with one eye/one ear, no nose, missing limbs/arms etc , all those are acceptable by you as well because someone can be "ok" without them

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

Look I don't see how you get that it's the most sensitive part of the penis. The head of a penis is the most sensitive part sexually anyway. The foreskin is not. At least for me personally and I would assume anyone with a penis would say the same (and even some without one).

A clit as far as I know (I am not a woman) is important to for sexual pleasure. Very very important if I'm not mistaken. A foreskin is not.

That would be the difference.

I don't get anymore sexual pleasure because I have a foreskin.

 

[Rydia]

Well my fiance has been circumcised and he still enjoys sex quite a lot. (He's a screamer too) I asked him about circumsizion and he does not remember his nor does he care. He just thought it was what everyone did. And he doesn't feel any need to restore his foreskin.

He said that if we have a son, he would like him circumcised for health and social reasons.

If you want to talk to the boys in my neighborhood about circumcision, then be my guest I can't see it ending well for you though.

Really, it's not your problem if someone has been circumcised or not.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

A fact? So it's true? Like, you can prove it, but you didn't with anything you said. Instead you said "think" meaning you have no idea whatsoever, but you like to throw out your opinions after bashing someone else's and a group of people calling it fact.

And it's "only" Contemporary Christians that think themselves above the Old Testament? What does that even mean? What's the difference between a Contemporary Christian and any other type of Christian in this circumstance?

Come onnnn. Someone with so much self-proclaimed religious knowledge should at least know the basics of fact vs. opinions and the frowned upon use of exaggeration with such a bold accusation.

Contemporary Christians are not like their ancestors because they use modernization as an excuse to bend the laws of the Bible. And that's not what I think, it's what I know.
See, what you did was take two different things and try to mash them together. And by doing so, you have tried to cover a truth by an opinion,, which really wasn't an opinion at all, it was an inquiry_ And hell, I think I just answered that question ^^.

I have been a little hostile with this debate, but I never wished to change peoples opinions on the matter. I just wanted them to realize that they can't do it either. I didn't start the hostility,, the one that's being held in such prized regard did, which is VERY ironic//
People are on here saying that circumcised people are missing out on something. I simply beg the differ by saying that we aren't missing out on anything. All of a sudden, I'm the bad guy? Seeing how that person I was tlking about above used to be a moderator, I'm not surprised that an adminstrator jumps on here and gives me such a redundant, pointless argument_
I mean, really, does Captain Obvious have to show up and announce this, for real?

I never knew debates had a hierarchy//

 

[blakstang98]

I have been a little hostile with this debate, but I never wished to change peoples opinions on the matter. I just wanted them to realize that they can't do it either. I didn't start the hostility,, the one that's being held in such prized regard did, which is VERY ironic//
People are on here saying that circumcised people are missing out on something. I simply beg the differ by saying that we aren't missing out on anything. All of a sudden, I'm the bad guy? Seeing how that person I was tlking about above used to be a moderator, I'm not surprised that an adminstrator jumps on here and gives me such a redundant, pointless argument_
I mean, really, does Captain Obvious have to show up and announce this, for real?

I never knew debates had a hierarchy//

A member complained about hostility, and as a moderator, I have to take action. Did I ever call you a bad guy? Negatory. I'm just stating that for the sake of civility, to tone it a down a notch. You can debate about this all you want, just be mindful that personal attacks will not be tolerated.

Kerrigan used to be a moderator, a global moderator, in fact. Dave stepped down several months before I became a staff member, and to be totally honest I've never talked to him on a personal level. But the fact that he was on staff, he's very familiar with the rules of the site. I'm just here to police this area. Be thankful that this is the only action I've taken. I could be a lot more strict and hardcore and just sent you an infraction straight up. But we're all gentlemen here, I took the general warning route to give everyone the chance to bring civility back to the thread and play nice in the sandbox. I apologize if this makes me come off as an asshole. But by all means, if you feel that you were unfairly treated, then bring it to the attention of the administrators.

I'm only here to post your regard, sir. There is no value added that I can bring to this topic, as it's one that I really don't care about. So I apologize to all those that were debating heavily in this thread with my moderator duties. This post wasn't intended to derail the topic, I'm just stating my thoughts, seeing as how I was called out publically. Next time, we can take this to PM's and keep it out of the thread. Carry on folks.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

Let me sum up my views one last time as my final post for the this thread. XD

MY PENIS IS MY PENIS...YOUR PENIS IS YOUR PENIS..IT'S YOUR DECISION TO DO WHAT YOU WANT WITH YOUR PENIS AND THING ATTACHED TO IT.

The only thing I ever disagreed with was making it seem like people who don't do it are putting their kids in some serious dangerous (not true) or that it should be the parent's decision.

I don't think that it's cruel to be circumcised..I don't think it's cruel not to be. I think it's a personal decision that is my own to make. I'm use to the skin there and I don't plan to get rid of it.

And I have and always will respect the Mods on this site. XD

 

[RedJeepXJ]

Let me sum up my views one last time as my final post for the this thread. XD

MY PENIS IS MY PENIS...YOUR PENIS IS YOUR PENIS..IT'S YOUR DECISION TO DO WHAT YOU WANT WITH YOUR PENIS AND THING ATTACHED TO IT.

The only thing I ever disagreed with was making it seem like people who don't do it are putting their kids in some serious dangerous (not true) or that it should be the parent's decision.

I don't think that it's cruel to be circumcised..I don't think it's cruel not to be. I think it's a personal decision that is my own to make. I'm use to the skin there and I don't plan to get rid of it.

And I have and always will respect the Mods on this site. XD

Look I don't see how you get that it's the most sensitive part of the penis.

The sorrell's fine touch study - they measured many different points on the penis (19 on intact, fewer on cut) and the parts removed HAD 4 TIMES THE SENSITIVITY as the msot sensitive parts left after circumcision

The head of a penis is the most sensitive part sexually anyway.

completely wrong, it's assumed to be by cut men and even doctors as from their experience it is, but the most sensitive part of a a complete penis is the foreskin

The foreskin is not.

again wrong, at least according to medical studies

At least for me personally and I would assume anyone with a penis would say the same (and even some without one).

right there shows a gap in reasoning, common belief does not equal evidence

A clit as far as I know (I am not a woman) is important to for sexual pleasure. Very very important if I'm not mistaken. A foreskin is not.

wrong sensation wise they both add, women who are cut can still "enjoy" sex and orgasm just as a cut man can

That would be the difference.

I don't get anymore sexual pleasure because I have a foreskin.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? you don't think it would be less fun without gliding foreskin? try getting some medical tape and taping it back so it's not mobile and tight and then masturbate, see if that is not less pleasurable and you still have all the nerves and sensitive parts instead of scar tissue

 

[Bambi]

Eh I'l throw in my peanut. I can't see the point in having it done, unless there was some medical reason. It just seems unecessary otherwise. If it was so unclean/unhygenic whatever, then why would folk be born with them in the first place?

I'd rather the kid at least have the choice when he's older than just be like, whap it off for no reason. I can't pretend to know what it's liek for the lad in question, at any age. In some areas it's the norm, as Rydia pointed out, in others, it's the opposite and no one tends to have them removed.

I certainly wouldn't want to remove it just because of the social implications attached though. That's just daft, you should at least do it for a reason other than 'oh he might get laughed at in thelocker room' folk shouldn't be looking at my nob in the first place, perverts

Anyway. I don't really have an issue with it either way, I just wouldn't do it, unless there was a medical reason to do so, I just don't see the point in the unecessary pain. Whether the kid remembers it or not, it's still gunna be in discomfort at the time and as a parent, you have to witness that. Ellie wont remember halfthe things from when she was a baby, if anything at all, yet I still remember any stress/pain/discomfort she may have been in

 

[Busta]

I'm glad mine was done to start with because I'd rather have it done as a baby when I have no recollection of it, as opposed to going through it as a teenager/adult and remembering the whole deal.

it is pretty unhealthy from what I've heard, and it's ugly as shit when you see a wang with one of those still with a foreskin. Health Class, not personal experience let me add. :/

 

[Marquis of Granby]

i agree with kelly. circumcision isnt exactly..."normal practice" in the uk unless - as kelly said - the chap has a medical condition. and there are plenty of them im sure. but this whole thing about it being dirty to have foreskin...i dont get it. its like...there are so many places on the human body that will obviously smell if you dont wash them. if you wash you generally wont have any problems.

as for it looking ugly...well i cant say ive ever noticed. i dont have or want anything to compare my own one to though im sure there are at least 50 high quality photos of various willies on kelly's phone. my wanger hasnt turned black and fallen off yet so foreskin cant be all that bad, and more to the point, its perfectly natural.

you americans

 

[Phase Delta]

I agree with Jim - I am personally not circumcised (although my brother is, due to a medical condition). I see the foreskin as being natural, and don't understand those who see it as 'ugly' or whatever - for me it would be really weird not to have one.

At the end of the day, it's personal preference I suppose, and I see no problem with keeping my foreskin, personally. I wouldn't want to go through with a medical procedure like that unless it was necessary.

 

[ren1200]

Personaly im not circumcised. It all comes down to the persons choice. A lot of people talk about them wanting free will and the freedom to make there own choices (This is just my opinion) Would it really be free will if you take that choice from someone? Would you like it if someone decided to remove a body part (The foreskin is a body part) from you because they don't feel comfortable with it or because they think it will help you? I know from experience when I was 8 my parents had part of my intestine removed because they and the doctor THOUGHT I had a infection. Later on they found out I didn't. Because of that a body part of mine was unnecessarily removed. This reminds me of that saying Treat others how you want to be treated. It all comes down to it not being a parents choice. Its the childs choice.