Kuja > Sephiroth

[der Astronom]

NOTE: I have seen this topic at ACF, which has ended up in some terrible flaming, and moderator "he says, she says". I would like to remind members to please not get carried away and not insult anyone by calling them "geniuses" or "fanboys", etc. I'm glad it hasn't happened here yet, but if it does happen, I will not hesitate to use the warn button.

There are often inconsistencies that are often not really explained or dismissed in episodes, video games and the like. That's most likely why they don't happen in real life. For example, the inconsistency with Lisa's age in the Simpsons. As with Supernova, and the planets miraculously appearing again, it's another one of those inconsistencies that may not require an explanation. If you can disqualify in battle moves because they are inconsistent, you may as well disqualify that attack from ever happening because it's not logical. However, that is an attack that Sephiroth uses in the game, and with regards to the physics behind a Supernova, we're not speaking of the sun in the solar system as we know it; this is a different universe, and even so, it's just a fantasy game; a mere fiction that doesn't have to follow any sort of real life science that we know.

 

[Nikkolas]

But you can't count in-battle moves as heavily as you do stuff in cutscenes and cinematics as well as dialogue because as you said, the inconsistency. Note I haven't brought into question Kuja's Flare Star or Holy or Curaga because I have ample evidence of what he is actually capable of from dialogue and cutscenes. He can fly, he can destry a planet, he can take a head-on shot from the second-most powerful eidelon and smile as well as surviving a shot meant to kill him from probably the most powerful weapon in the game- The Invincible. None of that is inconsistent. Terra did not zoom back into existence so Kuja could destroy it again. The summons Kuja made (the 4 Chaoses and Eeathguise) do not re-appear (in reality, they don't. They are in the Crystal World but that's not real). If you want to judge any sort of fight, you judge who they beat and how. Kuja fought the party twice; once he owned them all. Second time, he stalemated. The theories on whether or not he "killed" the party somehow are still around given no one knows exactly how the party got to where they were before Necron.

You see? I don't need his actions in a battle because real dialogue and events in the cinematics should be given more weight. Going by your logic, someone like Kyle Katarn is better than Yoda, Palpatine and Luke because he went through an entire game killing hundreds of enemies. It's simply not credible. I hope you see what I'm getting at. It was the way I was taught to debate these sort of things and it makes more sense to me than factoring in moves in battles as much as moves scenes in FMV-form.

 

[Warrior of Light]

For all that Kuja couldn't escape his fate in an over-grown tree. These are called plot inconsistencies. Because the game creators didn't think through their "planet-injuring" villian (because there's no real evidence that he destoried Terra) they neutralize him in the first way they can come up with. Hence, why debating who is more likely to win--Kuja or Sephiroth--is an endeavour in futility.

I will not continue to debate who is better I find such a thing to be the antics of fanboys and fangirls. I merly ask you use only true infomation about Sephiroth in your disucssions.

That's pretty much my view of things. Argue your point, I hardly care who wins and feel it is pointless--but if you must do this, please only use factual information. It's not gonna do your arguement any good to bring up misleading information because then it hurts the crediblity of your post.

 

[der Astronom]

But you can't count in-battle moves as heavily as you do stuff in cutscenes and cinematics as well as dialogue because as you said, the inconsistency.

If it's inconsistent enough not to be discussed, it may as well not exist in battle, but the fact is, Supernova exists.

Note I haven't brought into question Kuja's Flare Star or Holy or Curaga because I have ample evidence of what he is actually capable of from dialogue and cutscenes. He can fly, he can destry a planet, he can take a head-on shot from the second-most powerful eidelon and smile as well as surviving a shot meant to kill him from probably the most powerful weapon in the game- The Invincible. None of that is inconsistent. Terra did not zoom back into existence so Kuja could destroy it again. The summons Kuja made (the 4 Chaoses and Eeathguise) do not re-appear (in reality, they don't. They are in the Crystal World but that's not real). If you want to judge any sort of fight, you judge who they beat and how. Kuja fought the party twice; once he owned them all. Second time, he stalemated. The theories on whether or not he "killed" the party somehow are still around given no one knows exactly how the party got to where they were before Necron.

Unfortunately, I haven't played enough of FF9 to see Kuja do some of these things, which is why I haven't replied until now, and even so, I only know about Sephiroth in this argument.

You see? I don't need his actions in a battle because real dialogue and events in the cinematics should be given more weight. Going by your logic, someone like Kyle Katarn is better than Yoda, Palpatine and Luke because he went through an entire game killing hundreds of enemies. It's simply not credible. I hope you see what I'm getting at. It was the way I was taught to debate these sort of things and it makes more sense to me than factoring in moves in battles as much as moves scenes in FMV-form.

No, because I don't know who Kyle Katarn is.
I could also suggest that the heroes in some FF games or other RPGs only KO the villains in battle, but they actually do get killed. These aren't FMVs either, but we still imply that it's the end. So don't think in battle factors are completely useless. Perhaps the creators decided they wanted to express what happens in battle? And don't final battles count for anything?

It's rather difficult to compare Kuja and Sephiroth because they're not from the same game, and the mechanics from each of them are different, and furthermore, we have very little of Sephiroth's capabilities, except for the ones we see in battle. But just because we see little of what Sephiroth is capable of does not mean that he doesn't have any abilities; we just don't know what they are. I suspect the creators did this on purpose because they wanted the mystery behind Sephiroth. What we did get to see in AC was his superb fighting skills with his Masamune.

 

[Nikkolas]

Because the game creators didn't think through their "planet-injuring" villian (because there's no real evidence that he destoried Terra

Well, we see him unleashing his power onto everything and anything in a custcene...then we get these quotes.

Mikoto: Terra will soon be destroyed.

You haven't got a chance. You saw Kuja's power. He destroyed a world by himself


And then there's the whole fact they have the Genomes settling on Gaia because they can't return to Terra because Kuja destroyed it.

Honestly. "Planet-injuring" is what Seph's Meteor did. What Kuja did was either like a Death Star blast or a nuclear holocaust.

 

[Nikkolas]

Your logic fails because this is a Kuja > Sephiroth thread. Saying "neither" is spam.

 

[Davey Gaga]

You are correct, Nikkolas, and the member shall be warned accordingly.

No matter who says what, or PROVES what for that matter, each of us will have our opinions on Sephiroth and Kuja. It's not likely that either will change.

 

[Nikkolas]

So...I was bored and decided I'd finally respond to this.

point is that you are completely biased in the sense that you believe one thing about Kuja and will try desperately to prove that point to others.

After reading all this tripe, I say the same for you about FFVII. Especially you because you flat out lie.

Sephiroth smiled all the time.

Don't think so.

when he released Jenova

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when he burned Nibelheim to the ground

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When Cloud gave him the Black Materia

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As I recall, Kuja did not smile, he merely wiped his forehead and glanced up to Bahamut. As a final note here, FFIX will never get it's own movie for the simple reason that it was a pathetic game, but that's a different disucssion.

So...I hope you won’t take this wrong but what you recall is a severely limited thing judging by this. And FFIX wont’ get its own movie because...well, did FFVI get its own movie? And isn’t FFVI the best damn Final Fantasy game according to anyone who can write out “why” and not just say “y”? People who can use puncutation, grammar and English? People with a brain? There’s an awful lot of Final Fantasy games, I’m afraid. And quite a number of people would say FFIX and FFVI deserve a movie more than FFVII. Some might even claim FFX-2 deserves a movie more.

Kuja did convince the tree to pump mist, I believe. However, this isn't exactly a great point to use. "Yippee! I got an ugly tree to help me conquer Gaia!"

I provided the proof. You provided nothing. Get over it. And, considering the tree had roots in every corner of the planet and these roots spouted out a substance to help cause wars and spawn fiersome monsters... it’s not that useless. Give me a break.

Trumendous work, Kuja. Run away and give up, try to hide from all of the problems you've caused. Try and be a good like thong-man now, wont'ya? As a point, it is clear Sephiroth would have won the match against Cloud in AC, had it not been for his arrogance in trying to take away what Cloud cherishes most. HA! "Tell me what you cherish most, give me the pleasure of taking it away..." He gains pleasure from making Cloud miserable. Kuja merely punished those who got in his way.

What problems did he cause that he hid from? As I recall, the only thing he apparently ran from was his own impedning demise which he had no power over. Plus he simply concluded that the best course of action at saving himself was to annihilate all existence. Not rational but he went a bit loopy at the end. Most people would given his position. And Kuja didn’t just punish those who got in his way. He allowed them to continue on. Zidane and his group were a huge pain in his side and he gave theM Hilda. Hilda in turn gave them the necessary information to help Kuja get to Terra and achieve his ultimate goal. Then he wiped them out and they were completely at his mercy till Garland intervened. Also, maybe you missed all the bragging he did before he even killed Garland?

He's not off, he's smack-bang in the middle. Had you bothered to pay much attention to the game and not made your own theories regarding aspects *coughJENOVAcough*, then maybe you could see that Tethar is right? He didn't randomly say that to win this argument, the evidence speaks for itself. However, you seem to be deaf and cannot hear the evidence I'm not deliberately trying to insult you, but I'm making my point.

No. He’s not. Sephiroth did not just make Bizarro and Safer Sephiroth with his mind. Or do you think writing down something, such as this right here, is making it with my mind? Because there’s no evidence in the dialogue that has anything to do with how Bizarro and Safer Sephiroth were made. But of course you know otherwise, I suppose. How about some proof? That’s always good when you’re debating. Makes you look less like a fanboy.

That thesis is fan-made, there is no confirmed evidence regarding this, which leaves it out of the question. As Tethar has already shown in his previous post, you are wrong.

Your constant assertion I’m wrong is pathetic. Honestly. Tell me WHY I’m wrong. Like how I’m totally trashing everything you say with facts. Yes, according to the UOG, he did control Jenova and it killed everyone in Shinra HQ. So? That’s nto really hard. Given the fact Square retconned Jenova into a mindless virus, Sephiroth could control her. Anyone could control her. All you need are Jenova Cells and the will to do so. Mindless virus=not anything to fight to control. You just...control. How impressive.

Oh and everyone in Shinra building? Pales in comparison to everyone in Brahne’s fleet. Or the souls in Pandemonium. Or the indirect killings he caused by using other people.

Sephiroth used the bond between himself, Jenova and Cloud to take over the mind of Cloud. Kuja could not manipulate anyone in this way - he relyed on blackmail - the cowards answer.

You have totally 100% lost any credibility with me. He did not use blackmail against Brahne. Where you pulled that idea from - I can guess but I’m polite - is beyond me. Kuja manipulated Brahne by using his brains. True, Kuja did not have the luxury of a substance to enslave other people’s minds. He did not have the luxury of his pawn being mentally traumatized. He had the task of using and transforming a benevolent queen into a murderous tyrant. All by his own intelligence. More impressive than using Jenova cells.

You seem to be leaving quite a few details from the story of Sephiroth. He didn't just read a book then go psycho. He studied infinite knowledge regarding the Jenova project, the cetra and the Promised Land. He discovered why he was different and realised what his true purpose in life was. Kuja followed orders from his boss, then schemed against him, only to have this fail later

Sephiroth: Now all that is left of the Cetra is in these books.

Then he burns downa town. So...read a book then torched a city. Definitely not “read a book and went psycho.” And, again, he was wrong. And given the fact he should know he was wrong by all logical deduction, he’s simply a pathetic villain. He isn’t a Cetra. Jenova wasn’t a Cetra. Jenova in fact killed the Cetra. Sephiroth should know all these facts. But he continues on with his life of villainy. There is no dodging this. None. At. All. You can theorize and speculate but the facts of the game point at this directiona dn thus, his entire character is as unspectacular as K-Fed’s rap CD.

And Kuja did take orders. Yep. Because...if he didn’t, he would die. And normal Kuja could take a blast from the King of Dragons. This blast could destroy warships with ease. And it merely gave him a cut. If someone who can do that is afraid of Garland, I would suspect Garland is pretty damn strong. Stronger than Cloud who pretty much damn near killed Sephiroth. And his plan partly succeeded. Moreso than Sephiroth’s by a fairly large margin. Mainly because..he got the power he wanted. He just couldn’t rule the world with it.

Souls, useless souls. Sephiroth virtually extracted souls, sending them to the lifestream, then attempted to join with all of those souls.

You make it sound like he’s Shang Tsung. He killed people and their souls went to the Lifestream. That’s it. Kuja absorbed all the souls of the Invincible and also replaced the souls of Zidane and the party when they were killed. So..he wins this too.

 

[Demaian]

This is a LOT of speculation I'm not willing to go through it all...

I'll just state simply that I like Kuja more. I grew attached more to him than to say, Sephiroth. Kuja wears a thong, kudos to the man for putting that up... Sephiroth.... Well, he never appealed to me that much. I even liked Kadaj more.

 

[Nikkolas]

Anyway, a small piece I wrote a while ago.

Kuja vs. Sephiroth - the confrontation of the silver-haired Playstation sensation...s. Kuja, the poetic yet nearly unknown antagonist of Final Fantasy IX against Sephiroth, the universally-known and giant sword-wielding villain of Final Fantasy VII. There have been two threads like this in the past on this forum but both lacked a nice thorough evaluation of each character. I will provide this as the start for this topic.

SEPHIROTH

Motives- The key to any true good villain is their motivation. Why are they evil? Sephiroth was a noble soldier and war hero, admired by young men. One day, he goes on a mission and reads some books in a secret government laboratory.

Sephiroth: (reading a book) …an organism that was apparently dead, was found in 2000 year old geological stratum. Professor Gast named that organism, Jenova… Year, X Month, X Day. Jenova confirmed to be an Ancient …X Year, X Month, X
Day. Jenova Project approved. The use of Mako Reactor I approved for use… My other's name is Jenova… Jenova Project… Is this just a coincidence? Professor Ga st… Why didn't you tell me anything? …Why did you die?

Short time later...

Sephiroth: Don't you get it? An Ancient named Jenova was found in the geological stratum of 2000 years ago. The Jenova Project. The Jenova Project
wanted to produce people with the powers of the Ancients……no, the Cetra! …I am the one that was produced.


From the lies told him and his own bizarre logic, Sephiroth deduced he was “created” and a test-tube baby. This conveniently severed any ties he had with humanity which he seems to have also fabricated a story for.

Sephiroth: Long ago, disaster struck this planet. Your ancestors escaped… They survived because they hid. The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After that, your ancestors continued to increase. Now all that's left of the Cetra is in these reports.

So, Sephiroth’s motives are a righteous hate for humanity. To avenge his “ancestors” and mother, he must kill and “take back” the Planet from humans. He then proceeds to perform his infamous rampage in Nibelheim.

But, isn’t this knowledge invalid? He wasn’t created. He wasn’t a Cetra. The “mother” of his was the real thing that wiped out the Cetra. This is fact. Yet, Sephiroth...

Sephiroth: ...Ah, but I have. I'm far superior to the Ancients. I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.

That is Sephiroth at the Temple of the Ancients. Examine these quotes well. He has gained the knowledge of the Ancients which would include his righteous hate for humanity being non-existent. Thus, his motivation and reasons for going evil are moot.

Power- Now, Sephiroth’s power..what is it? He went into the Lifestream and is now at Northern Crater. He’s stuck there, trapped in materia. His power (never even explained) was the ability to control Jenova’s body and the other Sephiroth clones. In this way, Aeris and the workers at Shinra HQ were killed. Sephiroth himself does absolutely nothing throughout the game except stay stuck in the Crater. His main goal and use of power to attain his goal was Meteor. However, Meteor can be used by anyone.

Aerith: Nope, we can't use it right now. You need great spiritual power to use it.

Cloud: You mean lots of Spiritual energy?

Aerith: That's right. One person's power alone won't do it. Somewhere special. Where there's plenty of the Planet's energy... Oh yeah! The Promised Land!

So, even the “great Sephiroth” to use the terminology of the Sephiroth clones and fans (who have a remarkable likeness in the extent of their brainpower) was incapable of wielding such magic. No one could unless they were at a place of immense power that gave them a big power boost. So, there goes Sephiroth’s amazing power right down the drain.

But, I suppose I should examine Advent Children. He then keeps his consciousness from being assimilated into the Lifestream thanks more to the Jenova cells he was born with than anything else and the three Silver-Haired Men are born. In the end, Kadaj gains Jenova’s head and here is Sephiroth again. His goal now - to traverse the stars using the Jenova cells to contaminate and control the Planet. Again, not his power. Jenova’s. He’s piggybacking on it.

Appearance- Now we al know we are shallow and how a character looks can sway our opinion. Sephiroth is very stereotypical for a villain. Dressed all in black, rather tall and armed with a massive blade, he represents what most villains should look like and what you expect them to look like.

Accomplishments-
Burned down and kill some people in Nibelheim
Used Jenova’s body to kill people in Shinra HQ.
Killed Aeris
Summoned Meteor - failed to achieve goal of this accomplishment
Held off Holy
Came back after being defeated and was defeated again.


KUJA

Motives- Kuja was born a Genome, a specially-designed creature named for a seed used to create them. He was defective, however, and was planned to be disposed of after he had served his purpose of being a placeholder Angel of Death.

Garland: His ambition was unbecoming of a Genome, but it was perfect for the mission I gave him. To bring war and chaos to Gaia...

And so, Kuja’s desires and lust born from his own ideas and egoism were not in accordance with the mission Genomes should hold dear. However, this destructive nature was perfect for Garland.

That was Kuja’s initial motivations, showing he was a natural-born tool of destruction but had ideas of using that destructive might for his own ends. His plan to achieve the power he longed for was thus.

Kuja: You two just don't get it! I need an eidolon more powerful than Alexander! An eidolon with the power to bury Garland! His powers are so incredible; I cannot even come close. I must destroy him before Terra's plan is activated, or my soul will no longer be my own! Who cares if she lives? I want that eidolon!

His goal was to gain the most powerful summon, a summon which could destroy Garland which would both destroy his most powerful and hated nemesis as well as removing the chance his soul would be taken from him. He first used the benevolent Queen of Alexandria, Queen Brahne, to summon Bahamut. Taking control fo Bahamut, he destroyed Queen Brahne and her entire fleet. He then attacked Alexandria with the out-of-control Bahamut but it was destroyed by THE most powerful eidolon, Alexander. When Kuja attempted to seize Alexander however, he was thwarted by Garland. When the new attempt at taking an eidolon from Eiko failed, he concocted a new scheme after witnessing her moogle going into Trance.

Kuja: So...an eruption of anger against one's surroundings induces a complete Trance! It's not the will to live, nor is it the desire to protect another!

Kuja: That means...I simply need a powerful soul, even if that soul is not my own! No, wait... And it can be found there!

Time goes by and the party reaches Terra. Kuja expresses very well how stupid they all are.

Kuja: I must say... I truly love you all. You not only broke the seal to Terra, but did me the favor of defeating Garland!

He then fights the party and they help him even more! They help him go into Trance.

Kuja: It's Trance! You know how it works. But a normal Trance won't be enough to defeat you... You're all as resilient as oglops. Even tiny
moogles possess the power of Trance... When I saw that in Gulug Volcano, I came up with a plan. It was easy. I just needed to borrow the power
from wretched souls that can't die... Where did I acquire it? It was the Invincible, or should I say, that large eyeball in the sky?

So, his plan shifted a good portion through the game and his own brilliance and cunning led to this new plan being a complete success. Well, almost...

Kuja: A mortal...? ...I'm finished? I don't believe you! Why would I believe such a silly story! You're telling me that I'll die soon, now that I'm more powerful than anyone? I'm gonna...die!? Lose my soul...?

Kuja: ...I won't let it happen. I won't... I won't let this world exist without me!

Kuja, who had lived for power, finally had the unrivaled might he sought. However, his life was at an end. He summed it up pretty bluntly later on in the Crystal World

Kuja: Why should the world exist without me? That wouldn't be fair. If I die, we all die!

To an egocentric narcissist, the world should end if they die. If their time has come, then all others have absolutely no right to live.

He then engages in a battle with the party. You could say he was beaten but he then unleashed Ultima which, depending on your own speculation, may have killed the entire party.It’s not known how they got before Necron in such a place resembling a spiritual door or afterlife as well as members of the party having to give their power to the others so they may battle.

Power- Kuja’s power is truly immense. A mage of immense proportions, he was able to create the entire Black Mage race and the Mistodons to be used against his opponents. His power was so great, he let himself be openly targeted and hit by a straight blast from Bahamut and merely laughed at it. He then survived a blast from the Invincible, the most powerful weapon in Final Fantasy IX, and survived. His main noticeable power is his incredible intellect which allowed him to manipulate a continental war that cost thousands of deaths by using a kind queen. Not mind control but actual manipulation which is a bit more difficult as you must use your brain to make the person act in accordance with your objective. This power also allowed him also to conceive of the plan of using the Invincible to achieve his full power. He thus became a demi-god, a being nearly more powerful than any other in an RPG short of Id and Lavos.

Appearance- Kuja’s appearance is said to be “feminine.” Not only is his face not feminine in the least but nice hips and a thong makes him a great villain. Why, you may ask. Well, do you see the guy in the thong with make-up as the ultimate villain who brings about mass death and chaos? No? Well then, that works perfectly. Besides, a lot of guys wear thongs. It’s nothing that special. Any number of characters may wear thongs under their pants but you can’t see it. Kuja is in love with his own idea of his superiority which would translate into his gladly displaying his body. A narcissist is in love with his appearance.

Accomplishments-
Used Queen Brahne to devastate Burmecia, killing dozens there. Used Brahne to destroy Cleyra, killing everyone there. Used Brahne to attack Lindblum and kill many there.
Created the Black Mages, a race born for warfare and death.
Anticipated and used Queen Brahne one final time to summon Bahamut. Then corrupted Bahamut and destroyed Brahne and her fleet.
Formulated quickly and then put into action his Trance Plan which gave him more power than any other being on the planet.
Created the Chaos Guardians, Memoria and Deathguise.

conclusion

Kuja beats Sephiroth in motivation, appearance, power and accomplishments.