Original ITS TIME FOR A NEW ADVENTURE!!!!!!

[The Illusive Man]

Umm holy spamming is extremely easy against mages, and slide hazard rips through all of her bp attacks, so shes very easy to combo

Terra holy spams herself and ice can be used to block holy (whirls up like a shield in front of her, I often use it to block most incoming missles) Terra does struggle more with golbez than Bartz does however, since Bartz'es ground game is vastly superior to Terra's.

Holy is pretty easy to dodge away from anyway if you have omni-dash and extended dodge (dash through the first pass then dodge away from the turn around) I can go an entire fight against holy spammers and not get hit once, If Bartz can close down the distance however Windshear > Tornado (triggers quicker and can cut through the first spin)

Bartz is decent at range, but trying to out-fight a ranged character in there element is not going to work, better off trying to shut them down and keeping them at mid-close range where bartz can deal with them more comfortably.

 

[KitesoKumoe]

ranged character are the easiest to holy spam, because of the distance game =P

try dodging holys that you cant even see, Ill tell you now its not that easy =P

No ranged character has advantage over Bartz =P

barely any character has advantage over Bartz, only mage killers =P

the only thing to learn as Bartz is how to use holy and avoid being countered =P

 

[The Illusive Man]

ranged character are the easiest to holy spam, because of the distance game =P

try dodging holys that you cant even see, Ill tell you now its not that easy =P

No ranged character has advantage over Bartz =P

barely any character has advantage over Bartz, only mage killers =P

the only thing to learn as Bartz is how to use holy and avoid being countered =P

You know tornado blocks holy and will deflect it back right? Remember Bartz is a jack of all trades character, master of none. Trying to outcast a caster isnt neccessarly going to work against a caster that knows what there doing, holy spamming is definatley a bad idea when it comes to to likes of Kuja as you'll just be a sitting duck for his ultima and remote flares, bartz is no doubt a tricky character to beat, but I'd say hes not the hardest to beat, that pretty much belongs to Golbez and Ex-Mode Gabranth.

 

[KitesoKumoe]

and you do know holy glitching will get Terra right after the tornado right =P

Holy spamming destroys Kuja, ultimecia, Terra and so on, if the spammer knows how to glitch properly


Golbez has nothing on Bartz BTW

 

[The Illusive Man]

and you do know holy glitching will get Terra right after the tornado right =P

Holy spamming destroys Kuja, ultimecia, Terra and so on, if the spammer knows how to glitch properly


Golbez has nothing on Bartz BTW

Glitching against other players = plain wrong for a start, if you have to abuse a glitch to win then your strategy is highly flawed and will likely get people not wanting to play against you, that being said there are several dirty tricks that Terra and Golbez can use on bartz:

Tornado/Genesis Rock trapping for instance, or meltdown blasting through floors/walls (on clocktower, lifestream and pandemonium there are several walls that you can stand next to and use meltdown through, I'm not going to mention which walls however), not to mention Golbez can really screw your camera angle by using his short range teleport attack and goes invis while double jumping.

But for me, bug abusing isnt the way forward, and telling people to base a strategy on abusing a glitch isnt a good idea, although the majority of your bartz guide is good, I just dont condone any form of cheating against other players.

without the bug abuse, Terra v Bartz is likely a 60-40 to Bartz, due to Bartz'es combos being more fluid but Terra has a better aerial game, it could still go either way but bartz definatley has a slight edge.

 

[calze6]

Bartz is definately used for holy spamming. Otherwise he's stuffed. By the way, is the reel impulse combos one hit slidehazzard or two? How do you land back on the ground? And what do you mean by escapable combos?

 

[KitesoKumoe]

Okay, how can you say abusing holy glitch is wrong when you dont know what it is.

Holy glitch is based off of magic cancelling, which is something anyone can do. When Bartz uses holy however, he cancels into holy and chain the first into flare, while the others hit when the opponent is stuck in flare. Completely legit, but very deadly and not in any way " cheating"


Bartz simply destroys Golbez. If golbez gets off the ground, hes pretty much dead

vs Terra is pretty fair game, but slide hazard goes through all of her brave magic, and if you hit her close to the ground, its an easy combo

@Calze: its one hit, dodge over them slide hazard(2 hits) and then wait for you to land, and youll see the opponent kinda bouncing. Wait a bit then soul eater

I find it useful if you set slide hazard as you forward aerial attack

 

[The Illusive Man]

Okay, how can you say abusing holy glitch is wrong when you dont know what it is.

Holy glitch is based off of magic cancelling, which is something anyone can do. When Bartz uses holy however, he cancels into holy and chain the first into flare, while the others hit when the opponent is stuck in flare. Completely legit, but very deadly and not in any way " cheating"


Bartz simply destroys Golbez. If golbez gets off the ground, hes pretty much dead

vs Terra is pretty fair game, but slide hazard goes through all of her brave magic, and if you hit her close to the ground, its an easy combo

@Calze: its one hit, dodge over them slide hazard(2 hits) and then wait for you to land, and youll see the opponent kinda bouncing. Wait a bit then soul eater

I find it useful if you set slide hazard as you forward aerial attack

Actually its a work around casting animation, whereas doing such a thing doesnt work with other characters (such as Terra triggering Ultima, or Kuja triggering Flare Star for example) its what we call the grey area as some will say its a feature and others will call it cheating (depending on which person is playing the character using the "feature")

Since SE have left it in however and not patched it out, its safe to say its an "overlooked" side-effect that they believe doesn't damage gameplay.

When there's a will there's a way however and I've discovered Shantotto is exceptional at dealing with Bartz and can pretty much deal with anything he can throw at her (the brunt of Shantotto's attacks are hp and will either break straight through holy, or trigger straight on top of bartz, she has a small hitbox in comparison to most other characters and is definatley up there in terms of speed, especially her trigger speed which is somewhat insane for hp attacks with goblin punch being the only thing quicker, not to mention her Ex-mode side effect manafont is easily in the top 3 behind Gabranth's massive ex-mode increase and Bartz'es Goblin Punch)

 

[KitesoKumoe]

its not casting animation, its the after lag that gets cancelled and every character can do it. Without it, there wouldnt be any combos at all. Any character with magic can do great combos with magic cancelling, The holy glitch though is the least situational and easiest to do and can punish people who focus in the first set of holy

and shantotto is an easy target, with her lack of a good aerial game. If you can vertical space right the match is completely one sided, especially since holy can interupt her hp attacks

 

[calze6]

It's very easy to holy spam but I personally find it difficult to keep dodging these things continually. That's why bartz rocks. Darth Revan, try using it before judging bartz. I used to think it is cheap but it is the best way of using bartz.

 

[Azazer]

Actually its a work around casting animation, whereas doing such a thing doesnt work with other characters (such as Terra triggering Ultima, or Kuja triggering Flare Star for example) its what we call the grey area as some will say its a feature and others will call it cheating (depending on which person is playing the character using the "feature")

Every character is capable of chaining a ranged Brave to HP so long as they have a compatible attack. As an example Cloud has an extended version of Omni Slash if the opponent is hit by the spell deflected by it. Similarly if WoL (Warrior of Light) deflects a spell and activates a brave to HP he can strike the opponent. For Terra this isn't as easy due to her unique brave > brave > HP set. We'll ignore Kuja since he doesn't have an automatic brave to HP attack.
Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoFYFrhDrMQ

When there's a will there's a way however and I've discovered Shantotto is exceptional at dealing with Bartz and can pretty much deal with anything he can throw at her (the brunt of Shantotto's attacks are hp and will either break straight through holy, or trigger straight on top of bartz, she has a small hitbox in comparison to most other characters and is definatley up there in terms of speed, especially her trigger speed which is somewhat insane for hp attacks with goblin punch being the only thing quicker, not to mention her Ex-mode side effect manafont is easily in the top 3 behind Gabranth's massive ex-mode increase and Bartz'es Goblin Punch)

In most cases a Bartz vs. Shantotto match will not end favorably. This is because Shantotto's HP attacks have a low range and are easily dodged. With that said her brave attacks aren't particularly intimidating due to the traits of Bartz's brave and HP attacks.

Moves:
Brave
2-3 Staff Strike: Shantotto's ground melee. Not particularly useful if the Bartz player is in the air.
Bind: One of Shantotto's key attacks. Unfortunately it isn't particularly effective when used on Bartz. However, it is good when used to A) Trap him before going after a core or B) Getting a stun for Bio
Bio: One of the most popular spells available to Shantotto. Like most spells it can be broken through with most melee attacks and isn't very effective overall on its own when used against Bartz.
Stun: A strange spell that gives the opponent a stun time equal to Shantotto's cooldown. It isn't particularly effective against Bartz and I would recommend simply guarding at that range but it can be used as a setup for a stun into Bio.
Retribution: Shantotto's air weapon attack. It can be used if Bartz is trapped in Bind or recovering from a guard. It can also be used as a random attack (rather than an HP attack) but overall it isn't as effective as the attacks of other characters.
HP
Fire/Stone/Thunder (Ground): Like most HP attacks they cut through brave attacks and trap a player if hit but due to the playing style of most Bartz players they aren't particularly effective.
Aero/Water/Blizzard (Air): Like most HP attacks they cut through brave attacks and trap a player if hit but Aero and Water aren't particularly effective at first tier level due to Windshear. Blizzard is also not recommended unless the Bartz player is not prepared for the attack. Overall it is recommended to use a higher tier version of these spells but it is entirely dependent on breaking the opponent (whether through luck or not) and retaining the brave.
[Note]
All of Shantotto's HP attacks leave Shantotto open for a counter if the attack misses.

 

[The Illusive Man]

its not casting animation, its the after lag that gets cancelled and every character can do it. Without it, there wouldnt be any combos at all. Any character with magic can do great combos with magic cancelling, The holy glitch though is the least situational and easiest to do and can punish people who focus in the first set of holy

and shantotto is an easy target, with her lack of a good aerial game. If you can vertical space right the match is completely one sided, especially since holy can interupt her hp attacks

Lack of good aerial game? you must have come across some very low level Shantotto's that didnt utilise her stuff properly. (and the cpu plays her very badly anyway even on maximum difficulty)

she does get afterall:
quick glide + (kuja speed gliding)
Omni air dash
speed boost + (speed on par with onion knight)
Jump +
Increased dodge range

Now its no secret Shantotto's level 1 magic is terrible, easy to counter and so predicatable it is not even funny...however if she has level 2 or 3, she can pretty much knock bartz for a 6 since it becomes less predicatable and much harder to counter especially the spot targetted spells, its very common for Shantotto to actually kill opponents that cant even see her on maps like pandemonium and old chaos shrine as they cant see the spells coming until they are getting blasted by them (Quake > Frost > Tornado combo, or Tornado > Thunder > Quake combo), however that being said...if bartz gets in melee range of shantotto he will litterally demolish her, her only counter to Bartz'es melee assault is stun and that wont do much against slidehazzard unless he is directly in front of her when he triggers it.

Also to note, Shantotto's range extends as she levels up, at level 3 magic she can blast you with Quake or Tornado from half way across the map, so ceiling hugging to spam holy against a level 3 magic Shantotto will only get you wall rushed, better trying to end the fight quickly than letting her build up (think as Shantotto as the ranged version of Gabranth, except brave level instead of ex-meter)

 

[KitesoKumoe]

Glide is an ability only useful on Kuja

Everyone can omni air dash, so thats meaningless

speed boost only affects running speed on the ground, and with it Bartz is still faster, especially since most Bartz should have speed ++ and wind sheer to further increase speed

and how does increase dodge range improve her aerial game in anyway

good luck trying to increase her brave when she can barely get close to Bartz

also read the words of Azazel, you might actually learn something

In most cases a Bartz vs. Shantotto match will not end favorably. This is because Shantotto's HP attacks have a low range and are easily dodged. With that said her brave attacks aren't particularly intimidating due to the traits of Bartz's brave and HP attacks.

your whole argument is based on IF she gets to level 2 or 3, but thats very unlikely, especially with holy breaking her every so often.

and no, I have played good shantotto players, and can easily say they pose no big threat

 

[Azazer]

Lack of good aerial game? you must have come across some very low level Shantotto's that didnt utilise her stuff properly. (and the cpu plays her very badly anyway even on maximum difficulty)

she does get afterall:
quick glide + (kuja speed gliding)
Omni air dash
speed boost + (speed on par with onion knight)
Jump +
Increased dodge range

Shantotto's spells do not allow her to glide like Kuja during an attack so her key weakness is still existent. Omni Air Dash is often considered the norm when using a magic user (and most melee). In terms of movement speed no one matches Onion Knight's potential in the US/EU version. I'm not quite sure if Jump+ would be more beneficial than Jump++ and an Increased Dodge Range does not guarantee Shantotto a dodge against Holy or any other attack.

Now its no secret Shantotto's level 1 magic is terrible, easy to counter and so predicatable it is not even funny...however if she has level 2 or 3, she can pretty much knock bartz for a 6 since it becomes less predicatable and much harder to counter especially the spot targetted spells, its very common for Shantotto to actually kill opponents that cant even see her on maps like pandemonium and old chaos shrine as they cant see the spells coming until they are getting blasted by them (Quake > Frost > Tornado combo, or Tornado > Thunder > Quake combo), however that being said...if bartz gets in melee range of shantotto he will litterally demolish her, her only counter to Bartz'es melee assault is stun and that wont do much against slidehazzard unless he is directly in front of her when he triggers it.

Incorrect. All of Shantotto's spells are predictable regardless of tier (which is why an Exdeath player has an easy time reading her attacks). On Pandemonium the walls work to the advantage of both players and instead highly favor melee over magic or ranged. If you look at the layout of the map chances are there are simply too many walls to take full advantage of Shantotto's Bio spell and Retribution. If you apply the logic that she can use her HP attacks to attack around walls you have to apply the similar logic that Flood works in all situations. In the case of Old Chaos Shrine a Bartz player will stick to the skies unless tempted into a close-mid air/ground game. Unless you're used to using 2-3 Strike and Retribution in conjunction with Bind and Bio, chances are that Shantotto will still be in an unfavorable position.

Also to note, Shantotto's range extends as she levels up, at level 3 magic she can blast you with Quake or Tornado from half way across the map, so ceiling hugging to spam holy against a level 3 magic Shantotto will only get you wall rushed, better trying to end the fight quickly than letting her build up (think as Shantotto as the ranged version of Gabranth, except brave level instead of ex-meter)

When compared in the JP Dissidia to Flood and in the US/EU version to Holy the ranges of her spells are noticeably shorter (than their comparisons) at every tier. This would mean that the approach game would be for Shantotto rather than for Bartz.

[Note]
Comparing Gabranth to Shantotto is incorrect in almost every way. You cannot deny Gabranth the ability to raise his EX bar because he can simply run away and charge or deflect/counter and charge. Shantotto on the other hand is forced into a brave match.

 

[The Illusive Man]

Glide is an ability only useful on Kuja

Everyone can omni air dash, so thats meaningless

speed boost only affects running speed on the ground, and with it Bartz is still faster, especially since most Bartz should have speed ++ and wind sheer to further increase speed

and how does increase dodge range improve her aerial game in anyway

good luck trying to increase her brave when she can barely get close to Bartz

also read the words of Azazel, you might actually learn something



your whole argument is based on IF she gets to level 2 or 3, but thats very unlikely, especially with holy breaking her every so often.

and no, I have played good shantotto players, and can easily say they pose no big threat

Again you tell me im basing everything on theory and saying holy spamming will always win when it does not, holy can be every bit as predictable and evaded as every other spell, the only difference is with holy you have to wait till its almost on top of you before you dodge it rather than pre dodging, or let yourself drop downwards if its coming in high, your also forgetting summons such as phoenix which will stop you from achieving break status, odin which can put you in instant break, atma that will break you when the timer runs down, etc.

I've fought a couple of Bartz players, won some and lost some, the losses are usually against the Bartz'es that gun straight for melee (shantotto's biggest weakness) if they holy spam, its playing to Shantotto's strengths and i'll just trap them against the roof to get bio to land, move away and wait for concentration to kick in then come back when concentration has built up to level 2-3 spells and trap them again, but using the hp spells rather than root.

Dont get me wrong, holy spamming is strong, but there is always a way to catch a holy spammer with there pants down, its just a matter of playing that little bit more tactically than you would against others, not to mention a couple of well timed deflections can really ruin a holy spammers plans.

But hey, if they want to rely on one button, all the better for me, they just make the fight all that little bit easier for me to finish since aero/aeroga will always trigger before holy reaches Shantotto, because a fight will always be won by the person that works for it, not the person smashing one button.

 

[Azazer]

At no point did anyone else conclude that Holy Spamming is the only tactic available to Bartz. The only agreed upon thoughts is that the tactic is viable and safe (and in most cases this is true). When applied to Shantotto, however, there aren't as many negatives as there are positives. The fact that multiple individuals (most of whom are used in the tier debates) share the same conclusions about a certain taru when playing as or against her means that this set of empirical data is in conflict with your own.

[Dodging, Blocking, or Falling]
Dodging or dropping when a Bartz player casts Holy is not always recommended as it can leave Shantotto open for another wave or for a separate attack altogether. Instead it would be much more advisable to dash away and cast Bio in preparation for another attack.
[Note
The reasoning behind dashing away is because of Bartz's air game. When Holy is used directly above or within a set degree the homing intensifies and the difficulty of a dodge (or block) becomes much more difficult. When falling, Shantotto loses her advantage (if any) due to her lower spell range.

[Summons]
When summons are used any player worth their salt will use summons that would be considered favorable to either their character or their playing style. Thus...should you choose to activate a given summon it must be kept in mind that the opponent may have a similar summon, a summon that would benefit him or her at a later time, or a counter summon. As an example let us say that you decided to activate Ultima Weapon but right after activating the opponent's summon triggers. This summon happens to be Rubicante who triples the opponents brave. Now you're left in a position where you must hope that the opponent doesn't catch you at all, lest you be caught in an HP attack.

[Melee and Shantotto]
Shantotto's most damaging attacks are her melee moves (interestingly enough). 2-3 Staff Strike and Retribution are often used to counter another player. If used against Bartz (who admittedly has an easily read close range game) it would be easy enough to guard his attacks if the timing is done correctly.

[Wall/Ceiling Trapping]
If you're going to attempt to trap a Bartz player against something I would not recommend using Bio as a method of trapping them. Bio can be broken through by all of Bartz's brave attacks in the air and Windshear (though chances of use are low).

[Holy and Mid-Range]
This is about the threshold before using an attack other than Holy. At this range Bartz is barely within the range of Shantotto's Hp spells (if at all) and often times moving to short range is considered the better option.

 

[calze6]

Shantotto gets pwned by bartz. Her lag time is way too long. She's way inferior to bartz. Bartz will snooze and lose you to death. I'm not suggesting that the occaisional slidehazzard is bad but bartz is definately the holy spammer. Shantotto has no time to cast bio. and bartz can still wind shear it off. Why can't you stop arguing about this darth revan? Aero will be interupted by a wave of holys too. By the way, I believe that the main topic was a guide for bartz not how shantotto can beat bartz. Let kumo finish his guide.

 

[KitesoKumoe]

oh dont worry, all this info gave me good stuff to write on the Bartz vs shantotto matchup

also some new, we found out that Bartz actually does have advantage against emperor

if you keep spamming holy, emperor wont be able to send out a flare

 

[calze6]

During the bartz VS emperor matchup, is it always on a map like pandemonium or random? Bartz can just wind shear against lightning crest too. How do you work out the matchups by the way? Bartz's main enemy is probably firion.

 

[KitesoKumoe]

some of my experience plus the point of view from a emperor player, but that emperor player recently lost to a Bartz who also taught me how to play against the emperor =P

windshear will still get you stuck in the trap, but the emperor would need to set the trap. which will be dificult as long as youre not too predictable

Bartz worst matchups are Firion and squall, but those still arent that hard