Could 9/11 have been an inside job?

[Erythritol]

In that case, tell me why every counter-terrorist function in America was shut down 1 week before the incident! Also explain why the patriot act was jumped on congress at a time when they wouldn't actually bother to read it. Explain why bottled breast milk for babies weren't allowed on planes but lighters and matches were!

Reliable sources do not come from right wing twats!




Honestly, why do I bother? I bet you don't know the first thing about politics. In which case you'll likely dismiss my other sources as BS as well cos you are obviously incapable of seeing fault in the man who said "I know that human beings and fish can live in perfect harmony". The other major source is www.hereinreality.com and various links from it. There are also books I've got but it will take a while to dig them out. I'm an avid reader, see. However to finally dismiss your accusations of my arguments lacking in verisimilitude, look at the questions I asked above. Terrorism wasn't a major concern for Bush even when the patriot act was laid down. It was a facade that apparently you like so many other right wing Americans have fallen for, line, hook and sinker.


To close the case you either admit that this was an inside job or (relating back to the point about the counter-terrorist functions of America being shut down regarding it as a "Phony issue") You admit that the U.S. Law is in the hands of incompetents.

The hell you talking about? Bottled breastmilk for babies was allowed on planes and STILL is allowed on planes. Lighters and matchers were but are no longer. However, lighters and matches played no role in 9/11, thus that is irrelevant. Where is the credible source saying that one week before 9/11 every counterterrorist organization in America shut down? Also, I hope you do realize that members of Congress don't actually read all the bills they pass. But it's cute that you think they do.

You obviously have never been to University because you still don't understand the difference between reliable/credible and unreliable sources of information. Websites by nobodies who have too much time on their hands = not a reliable source. If it were a website from some sort of credible organization, then it would be a reliable source. Government agencies = reliable sources. Seriously, stop watching V for Vendetta. The government really isn't that bad. Incompetent? Yes. Reliable source on information? Certainly not the Bush administration, but government agencies can't just make up numbers.

Oh god, you're hilarious.*I* don't know the first thing about politics? First off, I LIVE in the country we're talking about. Secondly, it's kind of, um, my major? Just because I don't buy into your poorly put together little conspiracy theory, I'm Bush's number one fan? I hate Bush. I think he's an idiot, and I know he blatantly lied to the American public. I also know he put pressure on the CIA to essentially fabricate evidence of WMDs. But I don't think he orchestrated 9/11. I'm also an avid reader. Only, I read credible things and don't waste my time reading the writings of stupid people.

Neither Cerri or I like Bush. We're both are liberal democrats, actually. We just both realize when a conspiracy theory is bullshit (and most of them are). 9/11 was carried out by Al Qaeda terrorists. It's as simple as that. I've written papers on this shit. I know what I'm talking about. I just think you're painfully misinformed and ignorant.

But anyway, like I've asked, if it were some elaborate scheme, what is to be gained from invading Iraq? Money? The United States has lost BILLIONS of dollars in this war. Have we gained those billions back? Hell no. We're just sinking deeper into debt.

The United States government is in incompetent hands. No one (except maybe crazy people in the deep south) will argue with that. But 9/11 was not an inside job. To think that, you just seem extremely ignorant about the United States government and about the middle east.

 

[The Phantarch]

The hell you talking about? Bottled breastmilk for babies was allowed on planes and STILL is allowed on planes. Lighters and matchers were but are no longer. However, lighters and matches played no role in 9/11, thus that is irrelevant. Where is the credible source saying that one week before 9/11 every counterterrorist organization in America shut down? Also, I hope you do realize that members of Congress don't actually read all the bills they pass. But it's cute that you think they do.

You obviously have never been to University because you still don't understand the difference between reliable/credible and unreliable sources of information. Websites by nobodies who have too much time on their hands = not a reliable source. If it were a website from some sort of credible organization, then it would be a reliable source. Government agencies = reliable sources. Seriously, stop watching V for Vendetta. The government really isn't that bad. Incompetent? Yes. Reliable source on information? Certainly not the Bush administration, but government agencies can't just make up numbers.

Oh god, you're hilarious.*I* don't know the first thing about politics? First off, I LIVE in the country we're talking about. Secondly, it's kind of, um, my major? Just because I don't buy into your poorly put together little conspiracy theory, I'm Bush's number one fan? I hate Bush. I think he's an idiot, and I know he blatantly lied to the American public. I also know he put pressure on the CIA to essentially fabricate evidence of WMDs. But I don't think he orchestrated 9/11. I'm also an avid reader. Only, I read credible things and don't waste my time reading the writings of stupid people.

Neither Cerri or I like Bush. We're both are liberal democrats, actually. We just both realize when a conspiracy theory is bullshit (and most of them are). 9/11 was carried out by Al Qaeda terrorists. It's as simple as that. I've written papers on this shit. I know what I'm talking about. I just think you're painfully misinformed and ignorant.

But anyway, like I've asked, if it were some elaborate scheme, what is to be gained from invading Iraq? Money? The United States has lost BILLIONS of dollars in this war. Have we gained those billions back? Hell no. We're just sinking deeper into debt.

The United States government is in incompetent hands. No one (except maybe crazy people in the deep south) will argue with that. But 9/11 was not an inside job. To think that, you just seem extremely ignorant about the United States government and about the middle east.

Well, you're a liberal in name only. Also I haven't seen "V for vendetta" so don't continue to bullshit me. You admit they're incompetents but then again that is not even an issue for debate is it? Also I have seen what you have denied. Up to 10 (and that is the exact figure) of matches were allowed on planes even after 9/11. If that has stopped since, I don't know but the fact is that fighting terrorism wasn't high on Bush's priorities. When asked why Bin Laden hadn't been caught he said "I don't know where bin Laden is. ... You know ... I just don't spend that much time on him. ... I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."
Satisfied? A related issue in The Guardian newspaper talks about the Carlyle group and the financial support it has received from the Bin Ladens see the issue of Wednesday, 31 October 2001.
Also the fact that Osama Bin Laden had threatened the U.S. before but the U.S. shut down all of its counter-terrorist functions one week before 9/11 seems very suspicious to me. I'll admit that I'm not the most informed person on U.S. politics as my area lies in English literature and language, both of which I'm studying at the moment. The fact remains though Bush censored all that you're allowed to see of his checkered past and thus you only have, even with a major in the subject, only a half truth. I am willing to bet you don't know one thing about Marxism for a start as that isn't taught in any tier of U.S. acadamia and I have assurances of that. Therefore you only have one vision and that, as liberal as you'd like to claim, isn't at all liberal.

 

[Erythritol]

Well, you're a liberal in name only. Also I haven't seen "V for vendetta" so don't continue to bullshit me. You admit they're incompetents but then again that is not even an issue for debate is it? Also I have seen what you have denied. Up to 10 (and that is the exact figure) of matches were allowed on planes even after 9/11. If that has stopped since, I don't know but the fact is that fighting terrorism wasn't high on Bush's priorities. When asked why Bin Laden hadn't been caught he said "I don't know where bin Laden is. ... You know ... I just don't spend that much time on him. ... I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."
Satisfied? A related issue in The Guardian newspaper talks about the Carlyle group and the financial support it has received from the Bin Ladens see the issue of Wednesday, 31 October 2001.
Also the fact that Osama Bin Laden had threatened the U.S. before but the U.S. shut down all of its counter-terrorist functions one week before 9/11 seems very suspicious to me. I'll admit that I'm not the most informed person on U.S. politics as my area lies in English literature and language, both of which I'm studying at the moment. The fact remains though Bush censored all that you're allowed to see of his checkered past and thus you only have, even with a major in the subject, only a half truth. I am willing to bet you don't know one thing about Marxism for a start as that isn't taught in any tier of U.S. acadamia and I have assurances of that. Therefore you only have one vision and that, as liberal as you'd like to claim, isn't at all liberal.

Oh my god! Thank god a 16 year old kid from England showed me the truth behind the United States government! I'm now enlightened!

OMG, wait, up to ten matches? ON PLANES?! Someone better call the bloody Pentagon, that is serious business. Oh wait, that's right, matches had nothing to do with the plane hijackings on 9/11. That's completely irrelevent. You fail.

Gee, that quote does look pretty bad. Congrats, you're just like Michael Moore. You've learned how to take something out of context and twist it so it looks pretty bad. Now, let's take a look at the quote IN context:

"Terror is bigger than one person. And he's just -- he's a person who's now been marginalized. His network, his host government has been destroyed. He's the ultimate parasite who found weakness, exploited it, and met his match. He is -- as I mentioned in my speech, I do mention the fact that this is a fellow who is willing to commit youngsters to their death and he, himself, tries to hide -- if, in fact, he's hiding at all.
So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you. I'm more worried about making sure that our soldiers are well-supplied; that the strategy is clear; that the coalition is strong; that when we find enemy bunched up like we did in Shahikot Mountains, that the military has all the support it needs to go in and do the job, which they did. "

Yep, Bush does have a point. The United States had invaded Afghanistan by this point and thrown them from power. Al Qaeda was hiding in caves. At this point, Osama bin Laden didn't have the resources to attack America again. Bush's point was that while bin Laden was still a wanted man, Amerca's priority was toppling the system that creates the Osama bin Ladens. After all, you can catch one man, but what good does that do? Another will rise to take his place. The entire point was to destroy the system so that there would never BE another bin Laden. Again, nice try with the quote, but fail.

Oh my god. YES! We know! The bin Laden's have done business with America. Holy shit. And no one is denying that or even trying to hide it. Want to know why? Because the bin Laden's own the largest contracting firm in the middle east. They are a multibillion dollar company. That's not exactly a secret. Additionally, the bin Laden family pubically disowned Osama in 1994. There are over 600 people who are part of the bin Laden family. Just because *one* of them happens to be a terrorist, that doesn't mean ALL of them are terrorists.

Osama bin Laden issued a fatawa on America in 1996 and then again in 1998. What happened after the fatawas? A US embassy bombing, not a direct attack on America. Hindsight is always 20/20. The United States didn't know he would attack America; they didnt know he had that capability. It's easy now that it has happened to sit there and chortle, "WELL OBVIOUSLY!!!" The United States underestimated him. America is not infallible-- in fact, they have a history of completely underestimating guerilla enemies. America underestimated the Vietcong in Vietnam.

And get over it, the media in the United States isn't that censored. Yes, they have an agenda but they really aren't THAT censored. I'm sick of people bashing America and calling it censored. If you think our society is censored, you obviously have no concept of the world. You want censorship? Go to China. Everyone knows all about Bush's sordid past. Stop acting like it's some sort of mystical secret that only you know about. If there were actual censorship, the support for the war wouldn't be as low as it is. While its not as uncensored as the Vietnam war was and reporters don't have freedom of movement like those in the Vietnam war did, our facts are not "censored."

The fact is, you have NO idea what is taught in my classes, so shut up with the "you aren't liberal!!!" Some of it is intellectual Bush-bashing and theories of how this war could have been handled more properly. I know that not every society should have a democracy. IMO, the middle eastern countries won't function very well if we impose democracies on them. As for not understanding Marxism (totally off topic, btw) I've read the Communist Manifesto, and I understand how Lenin/Stalin (especially) perverted it. I've also been to former East Germany and Poland, former USSR satellites.

Just because I don't agree with your really shitty and non-sensical conspiracy theory, that does not mean I'm not a liberal. You're just as bad as the American republicans who were calling those who did not support the war "unpatriotic."

 

[The Phantarch]

Oh my god! Thank god a 16 year old kid from England showed me the truth behind the United States government! I'm now enlightened!

OMG, wait, up to ten matches? ON PLANES?! Someone better call the bloody Pentagon, that is serious business. Oh wait, that's right, matches had nothing to do with the plane hijackings on 9/11. That's completely irrelevent. You fail.

Gee, that quote does look pretty bad. Congrats, you're just like Michael Moore. You've learned how to take something out of context and twist it so it looks pretty bad. Now, let's take a look at the quote IN context:

"Terror is bigger than one person. And he's just -- he's a person who's now been marginalized. His network, his host government has been destroyed. He's the ultimate parasite who found weakness, exploited it, and met his match. He is -- as I mentioned in my speech, I do mention the fact that this is a fellow who is willing to commit youngsters to their death and he, himself, tries to hide -- if, in fact, he's hiding at all.
So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you. I'm more worried about making sure that our soldiers are well-supplied; that the strategy is clear; that the coalition is strong; that when we find enemy bunched up like we did in Shahikot Mountains, that the military has all the support it needs to go in and do the job, which they did. "

Yep, Bush does have a point. The United States had invaded Afghanistan by this point and thrown them from power. Al Qaeda was hiding in caves. At this point, Osama bin Laden didn't have the resources to attack America again. Bush's point was that while bin Laden was still a wanted man, Amerca's priority was toppling the system that creates the Osama bin Ladens. After all, you can catch one man, but what good does that do? Another will rise to take his place. The entire point was to destroy the system so that there would never BE another bin Laden. Again, nice try with the quote, but fail.

Oh my god. YES! We know! The bin Laden's have done business with America. Holy shit. And no one is denying that or even trying to hide it. Want to know why? Because the bin Laden's own the largest contracting firm in the middle east. They are a multibillion dollar company. That's not exactly a secret. Additionally, the bin Laden family pubically disowned Osama in 1994. There are over 600 people who are part of the bin Laden family. Just because *one* of them happens to be a terrorist, that doesn't mean ALL of them are terrorists.

Osama bin Laden issued a fatawa on America in 1996 and then again in 1998. What happened after the fatawas? A US embassy bombing, not a direct attack on America. Hindsight is always 20/20. The United States didn't know he would attack America; they didnt know he had that capability. It's easy now that it has happened to sit there and chortle, "WELL OBVIOUSLY!!!" The United States underestimated him. America is not infallible-- in fact, they have a history of completely underestimating guerilla enemies. America underestimated the Vietcong in Vietnam.

And get over it, the media in the United States isn't that censored. Yes, they have an agenda but they really aren't THAT censored. I'm sick of people bashing America and calling it censored. If you think our society is censored, you obviously have no concept of the world. You want censorship? Go to China. Everyone knows all about Bush's sordid past. Stop acting like it's some sort of mystical secret that only you know about. If there were actual censorship, the support for the war wouldn't be as low as it is. While its not as uncensored as the Vietnam war was and reporters don't have freedom of movement like those in the Vietnam war did, our facts are not "censored."

The fact is, you have NO idea what is taught in my classes, so shut up with the "you aren't liberal!!!" Some of it is intellectual Bush-bashing and theories of how this war could have been handled more properly. I know that not every society should have a democracy. IMO, the middle eastern countries won't function very well if we impose democracies on them. As for not understanding Marxism (totally off topic, btw) I've read the Communist Manifesto, and I understand how Lenin/Stalin (especially) perverted it. I've also been to former East Germany and Poland, former USSR satellites.

Just because I don't agree with your really shitty and non-sensical conspiracy theory, that does not mean I'm not a liberal. You're just as bad as the American republicans who were calling those who did not support the war "unpatriotic."

I never supported the Iraq war, as a matter of fact I was opposed to it from the start when Tony Blair announced that he was going to aid Bush in the Iraq war was when I lost all the respect I ever had for him. Besides I'm just doing this to prolong the debate. It is an interesting topic, no question there. It's not as straightforward as "Was Hitler a bad man?" or some shit like that where everyone would go "Of course he was!" This is a debating thread. I could have argued either side. I picked this side to see what stirred. Well, I stand now with nothing left in my discursive repertoire on this topic. As I've said , politics are not my forte.


I yield.

(P.S. sorry for any hurt feelings)

 

[Erythritol]

I never supported the Iraq war, as a matter of fact I was opposed to it from the start when Tony Blair announced that he was going to aid Bush in the Iraq war was when I lost all the respect I ever had for him. Besides I'm just doing this to prolong the debate. It is an interesting topic, no question there. It's not as straightforward as "Was Hitler a bad man?" or some shit like that where everyone would go "Of course he was!" This is a debating thread. I could have argued either side. I picked this side to see what stirred. Well, I stand now with nothing left in my discursive repertoire on this topic. As I've said , politics are not my forte.


I yield.

(P.S. sorry for any hurt feelings)

*Blink blink* Oh. Okay. Fair enough. I had fun arguing/debating with you at least. I agree that it's a really interesting topic with a variety of opinions that can keep people yelling at each other for hours Those are always lots of fun. With your departure this thread will prolly die. D: Oh well.

 

[The Phantarch]

*Blink blink* Oh. Okay. Fair enough. I had fun arguing/debating with you at least. I agree that it's a really interesting topic with a variety of opinions that can keep people yelling at each other for hours Those are always lots of fun. With your departure this thread will prolly die. D: Oh well.

Why will it probably die? As I've said that politics aren't my forte. Maybe someone will come on this thread and argue a better case than I did. I know my arguments were rather whimsical but I did back them as best I could. Your later arguments were very convincing.

Anyway, I'm glad we both enjoyed this debate, it's definitely a good skill to have. I'm still working on it and I hope one day my skills in this area will be as effective as yours.

 

[Moogles]

Such a heated debate! Telling each other what to do and what to think. Very intense.

Our odious leader, President Bush, coordinated the attacks of 9/11; in fact, he piloted one of the planes. He just ejected himself before contact. He then parachuted down to the ground, and ran like mad to the White House all the way from New York City...on foot. Look here!

I hijacked into the goverment's top secret information archive...just like the guy who made "Loose Change"! It really is THAT easy. I uncovered proof that George Bush piloted one of the planes.

No good? Yeah, neither is the conspiracy. It's a load of crap, people.

 

[The Phantarch]

Hardly a fitting response to such a previously heated debate, if you don't mind my saying so.

 

[Moogles]

Oh, you thought that was a response to your debate? Well, it wasn't. It just happened to follow your debate, my friend.

I guess I could make my point without trying to be humorous.

Rather than saying this...

I hijacked into the goverment's top secret information archive...just like the guy who made "Loose Change"! It really is THAT easy.

...I could say the following!

How did some random kid obtain the information needed to form that documentary? Is information that proves the government coordinated the attacks of 9/11 really so easy to come by? It must be...IF the conspiracy is true.

So yeah...not buying into the 9/11 conspiracy theory.