FF and Philosophy Essay 3

[WanderingAesthetic]

This third essay relates David Hume's ideas about beauty, art, and taste to our favorite video game series.

In brief:
-Beauty isn't something that can be found IN a work of art (in this case, a video game), but rather something that we perceive in it when we filter it through our senses. Here we come to the old "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" adage.

-If we end the discussion there, however, we'd be claiming that the quality of a work of art is solely based on individual preferences. But it's not that simple, of course. The essay uses Final Fantasy VII and Superman 64 as examples. One is considered one of the worst games ever made, one is hailed as an excellent game that had a huge impact on the gaming industry as a whole. This is an extreme example, but it would suggest that there is a difference between good and bad games beyond our own personal preferences.

-What makes someone a good judge of art? First off, one needs to have experiences with lots of it. In this case, to be a good judge of video games, we need to have played a lot of different video games, particularly accepted masterpieces, otherwise we might mistake something mediocre for something great. Second, one needs to know their own biases and recognize where they might be influencing our perception of something's quality. Third, one has to judge things in the context of their time. This is especially important with the changing technology of video games. Judging FFI's graphics and sound by today's standards would be foolish.

-Some other things: Hume said that if a work doesn't deal with an immoral act, it can be dismissed without further consideration. I.e., if the hero does evil things without it ever being discussed or without ever receiving retribution. Hmm.

-Part of what makes Hume's views problematic here is, if good judges of art become good judges by viewing masterpieces, and good judges decide which works are masterpieces.... we are going in circles.

So, some questions!

How do we judge the relative quality of two GREAT works? Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy VII, for example?

Can someone's taste in video games still be good if they dismiss old games for reasons of graphics/tech/etc.?

Throwing all biases and personal preferences aside (or trying to) just how bad is your least favorite installment of the FF series? Just how good is your favorite?

Is there any instance of an FF game promoting some immoral viewpoint so that we can dismiss it out of hand?

Any other thoughts?

Have fun, kitties.

 

[Demon]

To me, the quality of a game can be judged by two things:

1. Properties which exist as fact.
2. Properties which exist as perception.

The properties which exist as fact generally cause a large group of people to have a similar opinion of 2, explaining the anomaly that is large groups of people perceiving something as good/bad.

But there are also people who may have a different impression of 1, so their 2 may be different.

 

[CHIP]

Throwing all biases and personal preferences aside (or trying to) just how bad is your least favourite instalment of the FF series? Just how good is your favourite

FFVII is my favourite, while FFXIII is my worst. Ingrained bias aside and looking at the games as objectively as possible, I'd say they have their own strengths and weaknesses (obvious statement, I know). Visually, FFXIII is superlative and the game is technically excellent and mechanically flawless, but it just lacks soul and fails to elicit any emotional reaction from me thanks to the melodramatic inter-character bickering and two-dimensional, personality-devoid villains. Not only that, but in terms of interactivity, FFXII is on a par with Sonic The Hedgehog. FFVII, while graphically dated and technically primitive, has more fleshed-out and compelling characters, greater interactivity, more depth to the gameplay and better environments, oh, and it wasn't as linear as a piece of string.

Can someone's taste in video games still be good if they dismiss old games for reasons of graphics/tech/etc.?

Taste is subjective after all, so I don't know quite how to respond to this. Some people dismiss older games because they're visually eye-sore, but does that mean their taste in games is not 'good?' I don't think so, taste, or personal preference is something that I don't think can be either good or bad. It just is. I dismiss games for graphical reasons all the time, because, well frankly, I'm a complete and unashamed graphics whore.

 

[Rydrum2112]

Sorry for long post.

Two quick point of clarification- Hume was saying that if an immoral act is committed by the hero like killing and it is not addressed in the subsequent story (the hero feels remorse or was in fact justified or is brought to justive etc) then you can dismiss it as bad "art." [by art I am using Nuttall's defintion of what Hume called art].
Nuttall does not quite agree with Hume's sentiment on this, but in a way I think hume had a point- even if the character is an anti-hero they usually have some justification for doing so.

Nuttall also gives us Hume's response to attack of circular reasoning about good art, that it is not entirely circular (I don't want to talk about it in this post, you can read that little section of the book)

Now to get to the stuff. Wandering- thanks for leading this thread, and don't forget to answer your own questions!

Because of the technology differences, I don't directly compare 7 with 6. In my mind 6 is one of the best of the SNES games of all time and 7 is one of the best ps games of all time but the technical limits at the time 6 came out do not allow us for a fair direct comparison.
I agree with Hume, and Nuttall that in order to examine things like this objectively, time period & certain aspects of culture must be taken into account.

How good is my favorite FF (I think X) - that would be my favorite video game of all time so very good. And the worst (13) is still better than a lot of other video games I have played. So while 13 sucks relative to other FF's it is in actuality a good game when compared to the universe of video games.

To address the other posts, first- welcome to the converstaion Chip.
Second- (to FinalC & Chip) if you read the chapter you will know that Hume & Nuttall address the fact that it why beauty might be in part subjective, it has objective components.


Also I love that Nuttall argues that to be better evaluators of video games you should play more video games (both bad and good)... well count me onboard!

 

[Demon]

(to FinalC & Chip) if you read the chapter you will know that Hume & Nuttall address the fact that it why beauty might be in part subjective, it has objective components.

Okay. Admittedly I don't even have the book. But seeing as that the book seems to just be a shaping up of pre-existing philosophy knowledge but with a Final Fantasy theme, I don't see that I really need it. Nobody has really said anything in these threads that has lost me.

 

[Rydrum2112]

Good, part of the idea of these threads is to communicate in brief, parts of the book to simulate discussion. So you shouldn't need to read it to understand most of what we will say (if people start talking about something in the book, then we will try and post the concepts for people).

 

[strifehart]

Ok, so I finished this essay, and I gotta say, this one was pretty awful. But, some of the concepts raised were fairly interesting so I'll share my thoughts.

I view art as something with a baseline for judgement. The baseline is created from certain concepts/ideas/aspects that a majority of the public enjoy and find as "beautiful". Beyond that, it's up to subjective approval. That's what makes every person's definition of beautiful art different, but similar at the same time.

Here's a non-FF example. I recently watched the movie "A Serious Man" by the Coen Brothers. Normally, I like their movies, but this one was just absolutely horrible. But it was critically acclaimed as being fantastic. While I agree that the movie touches on several moral issues and explores the human condition, I didn't like how it didn't commit to one idea, but instead decided to blandly incorporate several different issues, in a seemingly random fashion. Anyone who's seen the movie knows what I'm talking about.

Applied to Final Fantasy, there's no question that the medium has incorporated art-like elements. As far as whether or not videogames can be considered art, that's a different debate (I believe they are).

Dismissing works because they are immoral is foolish, in my opinion. Immorality is natural. People act without having moral reasoning behind it. Sometimes even controversial acts are committed without any moral basis. I think these elements can still contribute to an artistic work.

Anyways, I've never played an FF game that I didn't like. And I'm being totally serious when I say that. There has always been SOMETHING I like about them. The most artistically vibrant has to be either FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII or FFX. Of those, I'd pick FFVII. I'll probably post more later, when it's not 2 in the morning.