NonBiased Matchup Review

[Sephiroth Crescent]

:seph: vs :kuja:

I've seen alot of Sephiroth vs Kuja reviews, and it annoys me because neither side is fairly represented, Kuja fanbois always sell Sephiroth short, and Sephiroth fanbois take low blows at Kujas looks.

Before I do this i liked FF IX more then VII, but i wont allow that to interfere with my review .

Sephiroth Crescent
Race: Human
Age: Unknown, but some say 30
Weapon: Masamune and Materia,
Height: 6'2

Sephiroth is a...evolved Human i guess. Sephiroth Crescent was born to Dr. Hojo, and Lucrecia Crescent, but was raised believing his mom to be Jenova. He also which i neglected to mention was injected with Jenova cells while in the womb, he went crazy when he went with Cloud and Tifa to the Mako Reactor in Nibelhiem, or however its spelled. He saw the person he percieved to be his mom, and was somewhat disgusted. He then did research on the Jenova project, and on History, and thought himself to be an ancient, but ultimately was wrong, and so was Professor Gast. Jenova was an alien fom a different planet.

Kuja:
Race: Genome
Age - Unknown but around 17-18
Weapon - None, uses magic.
Height: Unknown but im gonna say 5 foot something =D

Kuja is a genome who was created by Garland to be the Angel of Death until Zidane was ready to carry out his destiny. This angered Kuja, and he kidnapped Zidane, and put him in the planet Gaia. Kuja went crazy during this time, and when he found out he wasn't as powerful as he thought, both he and Zidane went crazy, Zidane imparticular when he found out the reason why he had a tail.

Theres alot of debate over who would win in a battle, and who ultimately is the better villian, i will judge both on these criteria, Power, Accomplishments, Intelligence, Evilness, and Ultimate Attack. Now before i do so, i just wanna say fanbois from both sides annoy me. Kuja fans dont shut up about how Kuja destoryed Terra, a dieing planet which was unstable and weak to begin with. Plus the Cutscene doesn't even show Terra blown up, just destroyed. But not annihilated.
Lets begin! :duel:

Lets start with Power: Kuja has raw power, he was able to reach the level of Trance when he absorbed the souls of the ship Invincible, making him very powerful and a nemisis to Zidane and Party. Again Kuja fanbois claim Kuja is more powerful then Sephiroth because he blew up Terra, and that Sephiroth failed in destroying a planet. Such a statement comes from Ignorance, it was never Sephiroths intetion to blow up the planet, just to make the crater his mom landed in bigger, as such that comparison is unfair and ultimately stupid. On a side note, Sephiroth never exerted himself against Cloud, Reunion files claim Sephiroth was much Powerful then ever, however like I mentioned above, he just toyed around with Cloud, and as a result we dont know his true potential, or power. Points will be awarded to both Sephiroth and Kuja since Sephiroths power is unknown.

Sephiroth - 1 :seph:

Kuja - 1

Accomplishments:
Once again blowing up terra doesn't count! uttahere:

In this catagory both sides compare apples to oranges. It doesnt matter how many people Sephiroth killed, or Kuja. Ultimately what matters is the goals both had, Kuja was angry at his existance and wanted to end all life by destroying the crystals. Did he end up destroying all life? Nope. Sephiroths goals were to become a god, and to use the Black Materia to make the crater Jenova made bigger. Well he summoned the Meteor but it didn't crash since he was stopped. However he did become a god, sources say he became a god when he became Bizzaro Sephiroth, his reign however was short lived. Sephiroth accomplished his goal of becoming a god, while Kuja was not able to destroy all life. Sephiroth gets the point since he at least was able to transcend into a God.

Sephiroth - 2 :seph:

Kuja - 1

Level Of Evil: This one should be a no brainer. Kuja was evil and cruel, but had a soft spot in his heart, and at the end of Final Fantasy IX he was remorseful, he died in the Iifa Tree, Sephiroth on the other hand was evil until the end, some say he was sane before he discovered Jenova, but if you really think about it, he worked for Shinra, which was the games evil organization. Sephiroth also killed Aeris which was a heartbreaker to many. I mean sure Kuja indirectly killed Queen Brahne, but killing Aeris was just cold . Since Sephiroth was evil until the end he wins this, while Kuja was evil also, but the fact he was remorseful at the end negates his chances here.

Sephiroth - 3 :seph:

Kuja - 1

Intelligence: Kuja I believe was the smarter of the two, Sephiroths arrogance, and his desire to "play around with his food" led to uneccecary defeats, while Kuja cleverly plotted Brahne to destroy Lindblum, Cleyra, and Burmecia. And later Bahamut did a number on Alexandria, Sephiroth on the other hand somehow in his own deranged logic convinced himself humans were evil, and that he was an ancient, only to discover he wasn't, and that Jenova was just an alien. Kuja also betrayed Garland his creator cleverly done in fact.

Sephiroth - 3

Kuja - 2 :kuja:

Ultimate Attacks: I hate how fanbois on Kujas side make Ultimaholyshit out to be a "ZOMG DIE LOL" attack, its a story-specific spell. Since no damage numbers are ever shown for the spell, it just crippled the party, and the second time led to their death, Beatrix's Stock Break, and Climhazzard also crippled the party. In fact Trance Kujas spell Ultima didn't KO the party, it destoryed the battlefield which caused them to fall to their deaths. So Ultima is out. Super Nova on the other hand is also out, some consider this attack to be a mere illusion, i tend to agree, don't tell me "But it destroyz teh Planetz!!!!!! uttahere:. So this leaves Kujas Flare Star which did around 2k dmg to my party, and Sephiroths Shadow Flare(for example) which did more damage then Flare Star(around 3.0). Trance Kuja has only 55k Life, while Seraph Sephiroth has a base of 80k. Neither gets any points, Ultima and Beatrixs' Climhazzard both crippled the party, but no damage was ever given so how powerful Ultima truly is, is unknown. Under that base Ultimas real power cannot be verified, and ultimately is out. Sephiroths Super Nova being an illusion, and for the sake of being fair is out. I fought both and Seraph Sephiroth was alot harder to beat then Trance Kuja.

So ultimately Sephiroth wins, Sephiroth fanbois quit ripping on Kuja because of his looks, and worshiping Sephiroth, yeah sure he has the best theme music, and a cool sword, but that doesnt make him the best. And Kuja fanbois just because Kuja blew up a planet that doesn't make him Final Fantasy's BAMF of the year ok? Plus since Sephiroth integrated with Jenova he and Jenova were one, so technically Sephiroth also destroyed a planet. Sephiroth is also an intangible being, Kuja cannot harm him. Sephiroth would win in a fight between the two. To settle the qualms between the two sides, If not for the invincible ships souls aka if it was destroyed(which i think the ship was indestructable) Kuja would've never tranced, and if not for Jenova Sephiroth wouldn't have become a god.

Sephiroth is the better villian, and if the two fought Sephiroth would win, Sephiroth would either slash him to bits, or listen to an annoying Kuja quoting some play from Lord Avon only to get beheaded by an annoyed Sephiroth. Also there was nobody on Terra, Zidane evacuated all the people to the ship. Sephiroth also like I mentioned is intangible, and has psionic powers, plus Kuja can't truly hurt him.
So seriously stfu about Kuja blowing up Terra. uttahere:

Ultimecia vs Kefka is a better debate.

Well there you have it an unbiased review

Oh and My Spell Check is broken for all you grammar nazis.

Blowing Up Terra =/= Power uttahere:

Thats all folks

 

[Moogles]

This topic seems more appropriate for the Final Fantasy section rather than the Sleeping Forest.

Thread Moved

Personally, I believe Sephiroth is the superior villain...though Kuja accomplished more (I'm not a Kuja fanboy, but he gets credit for destorying a planet haha). Sephiroth doesn't really do much outside of destroying some towns. He had some pretty sinister plans, but wasn't able to carry them out. The level of evil category should be the main deciding factor, and I agree that Sephiroth takes that one.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

This topic seems more appropriate for the Final Fantasy section rather than the Sleeping Forest.

Thread Moved

Personally, I believe Sephiroth is the superior villain...though Kuja accomplished more (I'm not a Kuja fanboy, but he gets credit for destorying a planet haha). Sephiroth doesn't really do much outside of destroying some towns. He had some pretty sinister plans, but wasn't able to carry them out. The level of evil category should be the main deciding factor, and I agree that Sephiroth takes that one.

Im glad you agree, and I'm sorry my thread was placed in the wrong place >.>, the whole debate thing kinda won me over .

 

[Rydia]

Really, it's all a matter of opinion of which villian you prefer.

Many people complain about Sephiroth being a Mamma's boy, begin absent for most of the game, and having a very odd motive. (The fact that it was based on a misunderstanding.) And he was taken out by Cloud rather easily before the game even started and once again in Advent Children. So...

And you have to give credit to Kuja for blowing up Terra. I mean it still takes a lot of power to do what he did.

So if there were a fight, all Kuja would really have to do is float high in the air and then blow Sephiroth to bits.

Just my two cents.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Really, it's all a matter of opinion of which villian you prefer.

Many people complain about Sephiroth being a Mamma's boy, begin absent for most of the game, and having a very odd motive. (The fact that it was based on a misunderstanding.) And he was taken out by Cloud rather easily before the game even started and once again in Advent Children. So...

And you have to give credit to Kuja for blowing up Terra. I mean it still takes a lot of power to do what he did.

So if there were a fight, all Kuja would really have to do is float high in the air and then blow Sephiroth to bits.

Just my two cents.

Kuja blowing up Terra, isn't an accomplishment, i do agree though he should be credited for doing so, however you have to take into account it was a weak, and dieing planet .

I don't think one Ultima would "blow" Sephiroth to bits lol. I don't like how Kuja fanbois(not refering to you) claim Cloud easily beat Sephiroth in advent children, Sephiroth was toying around with him, and let his arrogance get the better of him, and come on Cloud stabbed Sephiroth from behind D:, note he wasn't integrated with Jenova either at the time. Ultimately like I said above in my review Sephiroths true potential remains unknown.

But your right, its all a matter of opinion, Kuja fanbois will say "Kuja Ultima Win", Sephiroth fanbois will say "Sephiroth Straight Kuja Thong" or "Sephiroth Masamune"

Well thanks for your opinion .

 

[Red_Mage]

If Kuja blowing up Terra doesn't count, how about Sephy killing Aeris doesn't count either?

Ehhhh. I kind of half agree with you. I think that fanboys on any side suck, but for some reason FF7 ones get to me the most. Sheer numbers, maybe?

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

If Kuja blowing up Terra doesn't count, how about Sephy killing Aeris doesn't count either?

Ehhhh. I kind of half agree with you. I think that fanboys on any side suck, but for some reason FF7 ones get to me the most. Sheer numbers, maybe?

You'll prolly meet more Sephiroth fanbois yeah. But I don't understand why Sephiroth killing Aeris shouldn't count , I listed it in adifferent catagory!

And I agree both sides annoy me to death, Rydia made a good point, it depends on who you ask, but meh I gave the best non-bias review that I could .

-Kuja

 

[LordLucaBlight]

this is an interesting one. i think the fact the we saw Kuja go all out and the fact that we haven't seen Sephys full power is an indication that we wont reach a proper conclusion with this...

another thing is that we dont really know the 'world physics' of FF9.... i know that sounds weird, but in the 7 remakes we see the characters jumpin around 50 metres at a time and slashing so much it would carve up armies, seemingly defying physics with their immense power. in 9 we dont really know if the characters in it are capable of such things. they could very well just be how they are presented in the game and pretty much move like normal people but can cast spells or strike with magical power etc.

in the context of this fight what i mean is perhaps KUja would cast a spell and Sephy would just rock up behind him in .1 of a second and decapatate him, or perhaps in ff9 the characters are really capable of jumping around and dodging/swinging/ doing whatever really quick with superhuman power, and then perhaps KUja could match him.

its stupid crap like this that makes a direct VS. pretty hard.

one indication that the world physics in ff9 might be pretty outrageous though because at the end of 9 we see Zidane running around the lifa tree almost with the agility of someone from ff7 AC... but we dont know if this is exclusive to Zidane and his 'theif' skillz, of if characters in the world are basically superhuman as in 7 :S

id like to think it would be a pretty sick fight though, and im sure theyd be pretty evenly matched in oh say Dissidia for gameplay purposes, but im gonna say Sephy is more powerful, he still haunts the world of ff7 and doesnt look like hes eva really gonna die, whereas Kuja's dead like any normal person is when they die (and he never turned into a god.)

 

[Blue Link]

I didnt play much FF9, but I am not gonna choose between either way. Reasons: 1) Kuja's wearing a thong! How can you take a bad guy seriously when he keeps interrupting a fight because he needs to pull the string out his crack ; 2)Same thing, how can I take Sephiroth seriously when his last name is Crescent!? Zack has a scarier last name than that!

Okay fine, I choose Sephiroth mostly because he'll just use Supernova and end the Planet anyway...so in the end it wouldn't matter...

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Really, it's all a matter of opinion of which villian you prefer.

Many people complain about Sephiroth being a Mamma's boy, begin absent for most of the game, and having a very odd motive. (The fact that it was based on a misunderstanding.) And he was taken out by Cloud rather easily before the game even started and once again in Advent Children. So...

Just to throw my own two cents in...Sephiroth had already been through a fight against Zack and had been run through by the Buster Sword (which had a blade as large as Sephiroth was) before Cloud managed to off him in a fit of vicious adrenaline. That doesn't show any weakness on Sephiroth's part, considering Cloud cheap shotted him big time. If anything, I'd say that it shows that Sephiroth has incredible, clearly-unrealistic strength and endurance, given that literally any actual human would've been paralyzed from the waist down. Sephy, however, still had enough strength left to walk out of Jenova's chamber, lift his over sized Masamune, and hold off Cloud's attack with one hand without so much as wincing in pain. He then lifted Cloud (a well-built man) off the ground, again with one arm, and was only overpowered because of significant blood loss, a hole through his stomach, and a rush of adrenaline on Cloud's part. Keep in mind here that adrenaline is more powerful than people give it credit for; this is something that lets frail women lift cars off of their children. I imagine that's what Cloud was going through.

As for Advent Children...I don't think this really needs an explanation, but Sephiroth was clearly taking it easy on Cloud. He did only use swordsmanship and flight (okay, so he used telekinesis once, but he didn't actually use it on Cloud), so really, the only reason Cloud actually put up any sort of fight was because Sephiroth was agreeing to do battle on "his level". That meant no direct use of telekinesis, no Iakiri, no intangibility, no Octaslash, no magic, no manipulation of J-Cells, no Supernova, etc. He wanted to prove that, even in terms of Cloud's specialty (swordsmanship), he was still superior. Even with such a ridiculous amount of handicaps placed on him, he managed to beat Cloud, who only won because Sephiroth chose to run him through with the Masamune in the shoulder rather than through any of his internal organs.

But I just wanted to get that out of the way early on.

And you have to give credit to Kuja for blowing up Terra. I mean it still takes a lot of power to do what he did.

Yes, if you want to use real world physics here, completely demolishing a planet in one swift attack does take a pretty ridiculous amount of energy. Even using "fantasy physics", most black magic spells (even the most powerful ones) can only destroy, oh, say, a city. Even Kefka's Light of Judgment only took out approximately one city at a time. Kuja's Ultima, however, destroyed the entire planet. That's not even the only impressive display of raw power on his part. I believe Kuja also blew a hole in the space-time continuum itself to get back to Gaia before Zidane and co. That shows an unheard of amount of power. Either one of these examples puts Kuja on the level of "planet buster", considering the unrealistic amounts of sheer energy required to accomplish them. However...

So if there were a fight, all Kuja would really have to do is float high in the air and then blow Sephiroth to bits.

...this is a bit inaccurate. While I agree that Kuja would win simply due to his incredible supply of magical power, it wouldn't be that easy. This is due to the simple fact that Sephiroth can fly, as well. In fact, he can fly quite fast. I'd go so far as to say that, if Sephiroth manages to close the distance between the two, he'd have a somewhat-decent shot at winning. Of course, that's a very slim chance, considering it relies on Kuja being very slow, which I somehow doubt that he is. Besides, even in his base form, Kuja survived a direct hit from Bahamut's Mega Flare and only received a small cut across his forehead. If he can take that much punishment before Trancing, I can only imagine that his Super Trance would be far more durable; perhaps durable enough to survive Sephiroth's onslaught until he can put some distance between them? Even so, I doubt it would come to that. I just thought I'd point out that Sephiroth wouldn't be completely hopeless in an aerial battle, considering his impressive flight capabilities.

Also...in LordLucaBlight's post...

another thing is that we dont really know the 'world physics' of FF9.... i know that sounds weird, but in the 7 remakes we see the characters jumpin around 50 metres at a time and slashing so much it would carve up armies, seemingly defying physics with their immense power. in 9 we dont really know if the characters in it are capable of such things. they could very well just be how they are presented in the game and pretty much move like normal people but can cast spells or strike with magical power etc.

I don't really think there's much indication that the FF worlds have different physics than, say, our own. It's a common trick in anime and action movies in-general to have over-the-top action sequences. Besides, the only "human" characters who we regularly see performing superhuman feats are Cloud, Yuffie, Vincent, and to a lesser extent, Tifa. Cloud is excusable because it was blatantly stated that he was enhanced by Jenova Cells and Mako. In other words, we knew even during FF7 that Cloud was superhuman in some way. Yuffie is somewhat-excusable because ninjas have always been portrayed as impossible agile by human standards. Ever since the first anime/RPG to feature ninjas as main characters, they've always been like that. Vincent was also experimented on by Hojo, which is where he got his superhuman capabilities. That's understandable, as well.

Remember, during the fight against Bahamut SIN, Barret (a normal human) was essentially useless. He almost died twice, and...that's about all he did. It's true that he showed himself to be in good shape, but he didn't really do anything that a normal human couldn't do with sufficient conditioning. Red XIII is an animal, so we can't really say what his species can and can't do. As for Cid...well, all he did was jump really high, which has been a staple for "Dragoon" characters since they were first introduced. We could pretty much just write those off as his Limit Breaks, which he can do because of the Spirit Energy built up in his body. Come to think of it, Tifa is the only one who confuses me. She's a normal human, sure, but she does pull off some pretty impressive feats of strength and agility. So yeah, she's an enigma.

In any case, this seems to be the direction Square is going with all of the Final Fantasy games, to some extent. The only reason we didn't see Zidane and co. pulling off those over-the-top stunts is because we didn't have high-quality CGI to show it. Come to think of it, they never really had much of a chance to show what they could and could not do. I don't think there were any FMVs that depicted them fighting. The only one who actually got the chance to display any skill was Zidane, and during that FMV, he displayed speed, agility, strength, and endurance pretty much on Advent Children-level. Hell, he even got crushed by the branches of the Iifa Tree and emerged completely unharmed. That's clearly beyond the capabilities of a human being.

Anyway, yes, Kuja would win in a fight. I don't see how Ultima isn't a display of power. It's no more an "unfair advantage" than Sephiroth fusing with Jenova's head and losing his human weaknesses. If you're going to use Sephiroth in his strongest incarnation, you might as well use Kuja in his strongest incarnation, as well. Otherwise, it's just not a fair battle. You'd be giving Sephiroth an unfair advantage. There's really no reason to not count it. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, even if you didn't mention Ultima, Kuja still blasted a hole through the space-time continuum and took a direct shot from Bahamut (the King of the Eidolons, who were portrayed in FF9 as creatures capable of destroying entire cities in a single blast) basically unharmed. Both are displays of power that Kuja has shown himself capable of performing. As such, unless you want to take both in their Base Forms (SOLDIER Sephiroth and Base Kuja), they're fine to use in a Versus Thread.

As for Supernova...it existed. It didn't destroy entire planets, but it certainly existed. The "destroying the solar system" thing is an illusion most likely intended to scare the party or something, though the attack itself is valid. I'd say it's simply a powerful fireball or perhaps an explosion of some sort. It's valid, but we don't know exactly what it does. Furthermore, I lulz heartily at people using gameplay mechanics in a Versus thread. I guarantee you, if we actually saw Zidane and co. getting his with Flare Star or Cloud and co. getting hit with Supernova, it wouldn't have done damage that can be measured with numbers. Gameplay Power=/=Storyline Power. In gameplay, Cloud's sword couldn't knock out a ShinRa MP in one shot at the beginning of the game. Are you telling me that normal humans can survive getting blown up and slashed across the chest multiple times? We have to base our arguments off of what we see the attack do, not how much damage it does in gameplay. Besides, Ruby WEAPON and Emerald WEAPON both have more HP than Safer Sephiroth. Does that mean that they're both stronger than him? HP values were lower in FF9. It has no effect on the storyline, only on gameplay (likely to compensate for the less-overpowered Limit Breaks).

And Ultima's power can be evaluated based on the fact that it destroyed an entire planet with enough time. It did kill the party, as well. If you watch the scene closely, frame-by-frame, you will see that the four Ultima blasts Kuja used on the party caused their bodies to simply disappear. Given the graphical limitations as well as a desire to keep the game rated T, I can only assume that they simply didn't want to show the party getting their bodies ripped apart by the Ultima. Assigning a numerical value to the attack is meaningless in a Versus Thread, anyway, especially considering we see Ultima's power in the storyline...in which case it has planet-destroying capabilities.

As for Sephiroth's intangibility...we don't know nearly enough about that to use it in a Versus Thread. How do you know a magical attack (Kuja's specialty) wouldn't be able to hit Sephiroth while he was intangible? In the Train Graveyard (or whatever it was called) in FFVII, when the ghosts turned intangible/invisible, Magic was actually the only way to hit them. Besides, we don't see Sephiroth phasing through things very fast...or even at decent speeds. On the Cargo Ship, he phases through the floor...veeeeeeeerrryyyy slllloooooooooowwwwwwwllllyyyyyyy. In fact, it took him even longer to phase through the floor than it did for me to type that. It wouldn't exactly be very difficult for Kuja to prepare another attack if that's the case. And hey, if Sephiroth is intangible, what if his Masamune is intangible? Good luck hitting Kuja with a melee weapon that has no physical presence. So, let's see, Sephiroth moves at an incredibly slow pace while intangible, can probably be hit by magic, and likely has no weapon.

Kuja is a better villain in terms of power and character depth, and if the two were to fight, Kuja would be the one who emerges victorious, or at least he would nine times out of ten. He has far more raw power, has shown himself to be much more durable, and has a number of more impressive feats to his name. Sephiroth isn't the weakest villain in the FF series- I like to place him in the middle, on Kefka's tier- but he can't stand up to Trance Kuja, who has shown himself to be one of the strongest in any Final Fantasy game (up there with the likes of Chaos, Ultimecia, and Neo ExDeath). He's a genuine planet buster, something you don't see often in FF. It certainly isn't something Sephiroth is capable of doing. He's only shown himself to be on the city-destroying level in terms of sheer power output. There's just nothing in Sephiroth's arsenal that Kuja couldn't surpass or simply counter, whereas Kuja has shown abilities that would just overwhelm Sephiroth, possibly in less than a minute's time if he simply continues firing Ultimas.

However, I will say this; though Sephiroth fanboys may be more numerous, Sephiroth haters who constantly shout "lulz sefirohth iz a ghey mamas boi + a pussy!" without any evidence to support their arguments are FAR more annoying.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Just to throw my own two cents in...Sephiroth had already been through a fight against Zack and had been run through by the Buster Sword (which had a blade as large as Sephiroth was) before Cloud managed to off him in a fit of vicious adrenaline. That doesn't show any weakness on Sephiroth's part, considering Cloud cheap shotted him big time. If anything, I'd say that it shows that Sephiroth has incredible, clearly-unrealistic strength and endurance, given that literally any actual human would've been paralyzed from the waist down. Sephy, however, still had enough strength left to walk out of Jenova's chamber, lift his over sized Masamune, and hold off Cloud's attack with one hand without so much as wincing in pain. He then lifted Cloud (a well-built man) off the ground, again with one arm, and was only overpowered because of significant blood loss, a hole through his stomach, and a rush of adrenaline on Cloud's part. Keep in mind here that adrenaline is more powerful than people give it credit for; this is something that lets frail women lift cars off of their children. I imagine that's what Cloud was going through.

As for Advent Children...I don't think this really needs an explanation, but Sephiroth was clearly taking it easy on Cloud. He did only use swordsmanship and flight (okay, so he used telekinesis once, but he didn't actually use it on Cloud), so really, the only reason Cloud actually put up any sort of fight was because Sephiroth was agreeing to do battle on "his level". That meant no direct use of telekinesis, no Iakiri, no intangibility, no Octaslash, no magic, no manipulation of J-Cells, no Supernova, etc. He wanted to prove that, even in terms of Cloud's specialty (swordsmanship), he was still superior. Even with such a ridiculous amount of handicaps placed on him, he managed to beat Cloud, who only won because Sephiroth chose to run him through with the Masamune in the shoulder rather than through any of his internal organs.

But I just wanted to get that out of the way early on.

Yes, if you want to use real world physics here, completely demolishing a planet in one swift attack does take a pretty ridiculous amount of energy. Even using "fantasy physics", most black magic spells (even the most powerful ones) can only destroy, oh, say, a city. Even Kefka's Light of Judgment only took out approximately one city at a time. Kuja's Ultima, however, destroyed the entire planet. That's not even the only impressive display of raw power on his part. I believe Kuja also blew a hole in the space-time continuum itself to get back to Gaia before Zidane and co. That shows an unheard of amount of power. Either one of these examples puts Kuja on the level of "planet buster", considering the unrealistic amounts of sheer energy required to accomplish them. However...

...this is a bit inaccurate. While I agree that Kuja would win simply due to his incredible supply of magical power, it wouldn't be that easy. This is due to the simple fact that Sephiroth can fly, as well. In fact, he can fly quite fast. I'd go so far as to say that, if Sephiroth manages to close the distance between the two, he'd have a somewhat-decent shot at winning. Of course, that's a very slim chance, considering it relies on Kuja being very slow, which I somehow doubt that he is. Besides, even in his base form, Kuja survived a direct hit from Bahamut's Mega Flare and only received a small cut across his forehead. If he can take that much punishment before Trancing, I can only imagine that his Super Trance would be far more durable; perhaps durable enough to survive Sephiroth's onslaught until he can put some distance between them? Even so, I doubt it would come to that. I just thought I'd point out that Sephiroth wouldn't be completely hopeless in an aerial battle, considering his impressive flight capabilities.

Also...in LordLucaBlight's post...

I don't really think there's much indication that the FF worlds have different physics than, say, our own. It's a common trick in anime and action movies in-general to have over-the-top action sequences. Besides, the only "human" characters who we regularly see performing superhuman feats are Cloud, Yuffie, Vincent, and to a lesser extent, Tifa. Cloud is excusable because it was blatantly stated that he was enhanced by Jenova Cells and Mako. In other words, we knew even during FF7 that Cloud was superhuman in some way. Yuffie is somewhat-excusable because ninjas have always been portrayed as impossible agile by human standards. Ever since the first anime/RPG to feature ninjas as main characters, they've always been like that. Vincent was also experimented on by Hojo, which is where he got his superhuman capabilities. That's understandable, as well.

Remember, during the fight against Bahamut SIN, Barret (a normal human) was essentially useless. He almost died twice, and...that's about all he did. It's true that he showed himself to be in good shape, but he didn't really do anything that a normal human couldn't do with sufficient conditioning. Red XIII is an animal, so we can't really say what his species can and can't do. As for Cid...well, all he did was jump really high, which has been a staple for "Dragoon" characters since they were first introduced. We could pretty much just write those off as his Limit Breaks, which he can do because of the Spirit Energy built up in his body. Come to think of it, Tifa is the only one who confuses me. She's a normal human, sure, but she does pull off some pretty impressive feats of strength and agility. So yeah, she's an enigma.

In any case, this seems to be the direction Square is going with all of the Final Fantasy games, to some extent. The only reason we didn't see Zidane and co. pulling off those over-the-top stunts is because we didn't have high-quality CGI to show it. Come to think of it, they never really had much of a chance to show what they could and could not do. I don't think there were any FMVs that depicted them fighting. The only one who actually got the chance to display any skill was Zidane, and during that FMV, he displayed speed, agility, strength, and endurance pretty much on Advent Children-level. Hell, he even got crushed by the branches of the Iifa Tree and emerged completely unharmed. That's clearly beyond the capabilities of a human being.

Anyway, yes, Kuja would win in a fight. I don't see how Ultima isn't a display of power. It's no more an "unfair advantage" than Sephiroth fusing with Jenova's head and losing his human weaknesses. If you're going to use Sephiroth in his strongest incarnation, you might as well use Kuja in his strongest incarnation, as well. Otherwise, it's just not a fair battle. You'd be giving Sephiroth an unfair advantage. There's really no reason to not count it. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, even if you didn't mention Ultima, Kuja still blasted a hole through the space-time continuum and took a direct shot from Bahamut (the King of the Eidolons, who were portrayed in FF9 as creatures capable of destroying entire cities in a single blast) basically unharmed. Both are displays of power that Kuja has shown himself capable of performing. As such, unless you want to take both in their Base Forms (SOLDIER Sephiroth and Base Kuja), they're fine to use in a Versus Thread.

As for Supernova...it existed. It didn't destroy entire planets, but it certainly existed. The "destroying the solar system" thing is an illusion most likely intended to scare the party or something, though the attack itself is valid. I'd say it's simply a powerful fireball or perhaps an explosion of some sort. It's valid, but we don't know exactly what it does. Furthermore, I lulz heartily at people using gameplay mechanics in a Versus thread. I guarantee you, if we actually saw Zidane and co. getting his with Flare Star or Cloud and co. getting hit with Supernova, it wouldn't have done damage that can be measured with numbers. Gameplay Power=/=Storyline Power. In gameplay, Cloud's sword couldn't knock out a ShinRa MP in one shot at the beginning of the game. Are you telling me that normal humans can survive getting blown up and slashed across the chest multiple times? We have to base our arguments off of what we see the attack do, not how much damage it does in gameplay. Besides, Ruby WEAPON and Emerald WEAPON both have more HP than Safer Sephiroth. Does that mean that they're both stronger than him? HP values were lower in FF9. It has no effect on the storyline, only on gameplay (likely to compensate for the less-overpowered Limit Breaks).

And Ultima's power can be evaluated based on the fact that it destroyed an entire planet with enough time. It did kill the party, as well. If you watch the scene closely, frame-by-frame, you will see that the four Ultima blasts Kuja used on the party caused their bodies to simply disappear. Given the graphical limitations as well as a desire to keep the game rated T, I can only assume that they simply didn't want to show the party getting their bodies ripped apart by the Ultima. Assigning a numerical value to the attack is meaningless in a Versus Thread, anyway, especially considering we see Ultima's power in the storyline...in which case it has planet-destroying capabilities.

As for Sephiroth's intangibility...we don't know nearly enough about that to use it in a Versus Thread. How do you know a magical attack (Kuja's specialty) wouldn't be able to hit Sephiroth while he was intangible? In the Train Graveyard (or whatever it was called) in FFVII, when the ghosts turned intangible/invisible, Magic was actually the only way to hit them. Besides, we don't see Sephiroth phasing through things very fast...or even at decent speeds. On the Cargo Ship, he phases through the floor...veeeeeeeerrryyyy slllloooooooooowwwwwwwllllyyyyyyy. In fact, it took him even longer to phase through the floor than it did for me to type that. It wouldn't exactly be very difficult for Kuja to prepare another attack if that's the case. And hey, if Sephiroth is intangible, what if his Masamune is intangible? Good luck hitting Kuja with a melee weapon that has no physical presence. So, let's see, Sephiroth moves at an incredibly slow pace while intangible, can probably be hit by magic, and likely has no weapon.

Kuja is a better villain in terms of power and character depth, and if the two were to fight, Kuja would be the one who emerges victorious, or at least he would nine times out of ten. He has far more raw power, has shown himself to be much more durable, and has a number of more impressive feats to his name. Sephiroth isn't the weakest villain in the FF series- I like to place him in the middle, on Kefka's tier- but he can't stand up to Trance Kuja, who has shown himself to be one of the strongest in any Final Fantasy game (up there with the likes of Chaos, Ultimecia, and Neo ExDeath). He's a genuine planet buster, something you don't see often in FF. It certainly isn't something Sephiroth is capable of doing. He's only shown himself to be on the city-destroying level in terms of sheer power output. There's just nothing in Sephiroth's arsenal that Kuja couldn't surpass or simply counter, whereas Kuja has shown abilities that would just overwhelm Sephiroth, possibly in less than a minute's time if he simply continues firing Ultimas.

However, I will say this; though Sephiroth fanboys may be more numerous, Sephiroth haters who constantly shout "lulz sefirohth iz a ghey mamas boi + a pussy!" without any evidence to support their arguments are FAR more annoying.

Fair enough what you say, but I think you missudnerstood some of the stuff I said. In the ultimate attack, I was trying to satisfy both parties, and in terms of Final fantasy physics, realistically however Beatrix's Climhazzard and Kujas Ultima are uncomparable.

Kuja isn't more powerful then Sephiroth, to say that makes little sense because well We don't know Sephiroths power, Sephiroth in his almighty God form is more powerful then Kuja(in final fantasy physics) and that is undeniable. As far as HP is concerned I was talking about from a final fantasy perspective.

Again you made the comparison of Kuja blowing up a planet to Sephiroth being unable to do so, for the love of whatever you believe in, Sephiroths plan wasn't to blow up a planet, it was to make jenovas crater bigger, but with supernova he blew up some...? Its unfair to compare the two.

Both Sephiroth and Kuja are very durable, to say Kuja is more durable is unfair. In a final fantasy like battle Sephiroth would win, in a realistic battle with all things taken into account, its very difficult to say.

In the end you bring up alot of good points. And I salute you that.

- Kuja

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Fair enough what you say, but I think you missudnerstood some of the stuff I said. In the ultimate attack, I was trying to satisfy both parties, and in terms of Final fantasy physics, realistically however Beatrix's Climhazzard and Kujas Ultima are uncomparable.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Final Fantasy physics". It was never really stated that the Final Fantasy world necessarily follows different physics than ours. Yes, you have people pulling off feats that people in our world couldn't perform, but to say that we can't judge these feats based on our laws of physics is a bit ridiculous. You can compare Climhazzard and Ultima because of what they accomplished. We even saw Ultima performed in the storyline, which means we know exactly what it did and how much of an effect it had on its environment. Climhazzard crippled four highly skilled fighters. However, it left the room it was used in in-tact, whereas Ultima destroyed an entire planet when we saw it used in the storyline. From that, I'm pretty sure it's safe to infer that, though Climhazzard is a useful and powerful skill, Ultima is far stronger and much more destructive. It's true that there are certain attacks that appear only in gameplay, and that it's hard to judge the power of those attacks. However, Ultima appears in the storyline; it's used in a cutscene situation. That means we can judge its power based on what it accomplishes during the cutscene.

Kuja isn't more powerful then Sephiroth, to say that makes little sense because well We don't know Sephiroths power, Sephiroth in his almighty God form is more powerful then Kuja(in final fantasy physics) and that is undeniable. As far as HP is concerned I was talking about from a final fantasy perspective.

We do know Sephiroth's power. We know Kuja's power, as well. In their strongest forms, Kuja was portrayed as being more powerful than Sephiroth. Sephiroth certainly wasn't almighty in any sense of the word; he wasn't even a god, actually. If he were almighty, he wouldn't have needed the Black Materia in the first place. Besides, even if he were a god, that doesn't change the fact that Kuja displayed a more impressive degree of power than Sephiroth. Whereas Sephiroth needed help to so much as injure a planet (and it was a process that took months to accomplish, mind you), Kuja was able to completely obliterate one on his own. Kuja also managed to blow a hole in the space/time continuum to get back to Gaia from Terra without a separate means of transportation. That, in itself, is an incredible feat. The fact of the matter is that, while Sephiroth achieved an impressive level of power, he's never displayed anything that puts him on par with Trance Kuja in terms of sheer power.

Again you made the comparison of Kuja blowing up a planet to Sephiroth being unable to do so, for the love of whatever you believe in, Sephiroths plan wasn't to blow up a planet, it was to make jenovas crater bigger, but with supernova he blew up some...? Its unfair to compare the two.

Yes, it's true that Sephiroth's plan wasn't to destroy the planet. His plan was to injure the planet. If he had the power to destroy it, injuring the planet shouldn't have been any trouble at all. However, he still needed to summon Meteor to so much as damage the planet on a large scale. It's still fair to compare the two because, while Sephiroth's goal wasn't to destroy the planet, he still couldn't injure it on his own. In fact, if anything, I'd say this means Sephiroth is even weaker. He couldn't so much as damage the planet while Kuja up and destroyed one. Also, it was confirmed in the Ultimania that Supernova was an illusion. How could it be used multiple times in one battle otherwise?

Both Sephiroth and Kuja are very durable, to say Kuja is more durable is unfair. In a final fantasy like battle Sephiroth would win, in a realistic battle with all things taken into account, its very difficult to say.

I'm not sure why it's unfair. Even before assuming his most powerful form, Kuja was able to take a direct hit from the King of the Eidolons, who were capable of wiping out entire cities in one attack. That basically means that, after being hit with an attack capable of destroying cities, he received nothing more than a scratch. Sephiroth, however, was killed by a single Omnislash without getting hit once before that point. That's not to say that Omnislash Version 5 wasn't a powerful attack. For all I know, it was probably about as powerful as Bahamut's Mega Flare, considering it is Cloud's strongest technique. However, upon getting hit with a powerful attack, Sephiroth was killed, whereas Kuja only received a scratch on his forehead. Since we don't know for sure the strength of either attack in comparisons to one another, it's hard to say, but Omnislash Version 5 can't be that much stronger than the Mega Flare, if at all...Added to that is the fact that Kuja probably grew in overall durability when he achieved Trance, though how much of a boost he received remains to be seen.

In the end you bring up alot of good points. And I salute you that.

- Kuja

Thank you for the compliments. You made a solid point or two, as well. However, this battle of wits is not yet over. To arms, good sir.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Final Fantasy physics". It was never really stated that the Final Fantasy world necessarily follows different physics than ours. Yes, you have people pulling off feats that people in our world couldn't perform, but to say that we can't judge these feats based on our laws of physics is a bit ridiculous. You can compare Climhazzard and Ultima because of what they accomplished. We even saw Ultima performed in the storyline, which means we know exactly what it did and how much of an effect it had on its environment. Climhazzard crippled four highly skilled fighters. However, it left the room it was used in in-tact, whereas Ultima destroyed an entire planet when we saw it used in the storyline. From that, I'm pretty sure it's safe to infer that, though Climhazzard is a useful and powerful skill, Ultima is far stronger and much more destructive. It's true that there are certain attacks that appear only in gameplay, and that it's hard to judge the power of those attacks. However, Ultima appears in the storyline; it's used in a cutscene situation. That means we can judge its power based on what it accomplishes during the cutscene.

Which is what I meant by uncomparable.

We do know Sephiroth's power. We know Kuja's power, as well. In their strongest forms, Kuja was portrayed as being more powerful than Sephiroth. Sephiroth certainly wasn't almighty in any sense of the word; he wasn't even a god, actually. If he were almighty, he wouldn't have needed the Black Materia in the first place. Besides, even if he were a god, that doesn't change the fact that Kuja displayed a more impressive degree of power than Sephiroth. Whereas Sephiroth needed help to so much as injure a planet (and it was a process that took months to accomplish, mind you), Kuja was able to completely obliterate one on his own. Kuja also managed to blow a hole in the space/time continuum to get back to Gaia from Terra without a separate means of transportation. That, in itself, is an incredible feat. The fact of the matter is that, while Sephiroth achieved an impressive level of power, he's never displayed anything that puts him on par with Trance Kuja in terms of sheer power.

Actually we don't, In the reunion files it said that Sephiroth was more powerful then ever, yet in his battle with Cloud he never exerted himself, instead he proved that his swordsmanship is better than clouds. He didn't kill cloud, instead he stabbed him in the shoulder rather then in a organ, you of course covered this. Then his own arrogance led to him getting killed.

Yes, it's true that Sephiroth's plan wasn't to destroy the planet. His plan was to injure the planet. If he had the power to destroy it, injuring the planet shouldn't have been any trouble at all. However, he still needed to summon Meteor to so much as damage the planet on a large scale. It's still fair to compare the two because, while Sephiroth's goal wasn't to destroy the planet, he still couldn't injure it on his own. In fact, if anything, I'd say this means Sephiroth is even weaker. He couldn't so much as damage the planet while Kuja up and destroyed one. Also, it was confirmed in the Ultimania that Supernova was an illusion. How could it be used multiple times in one battle otherwise?

Bear in Mind, Terra was a weak and dieing planet , and that nobody was on it. But yes what you say is true.

I'm not sure why it's unfair. Even before assuming his most powerful form, Kuja was able to take a direct hit from the King of the Eidolons, who were capable of wiping out entire cities in one attack. That basically means that, after being hit with an attack capable of destroying cities, he received nothing more than a scratch. Sephiroth, however, was killed by a single Omnislash without getting hit once before that point. That's not to say that Omnislash Version 5 wasn't a powerful attack. For all I know, it was probably about as powerful as Bahamut's Mega Flare, considering it is Cloud's strongest technique. However, upon getting hit with a powerful attack, Sephiroth was killed, whereas Kuja only received a scratch on his forehead. Since we don't know for sure the strength of either attack in comparisons to one another, it's hard to say, but Omnislash Version 5 can't be that much stronger than the Mega Flare, if at all...Added to that is the fact that Kuja probably grew in overall durability when he achieved Trance, though how much of a boost he received remains to be seen.

Its unfair because Kuja and Sephiroth both showed durability, Sephiroth when cloud stabbed him in the back, and was still able to run away and flee, and Kuja taking a blast from Bahamut and coming out only scratched. Omnislash vs Mega Flare is arguable in FF terms, because Omnislash does more(in numbers), but realistically Mega Flare would do more, its a toss up in the air.

Thank you for the compliments. You made a solid point or two, as well. However, this battle of wits is not yet over. To arms, good sir.

Your very welcome my friend I await your reply

- Kuja

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Which is what I meant by uncomparable.

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "incomparable". The attacks are very clearly comparable, since we see what they're both capable of. Again, using Climhazzard and Ultima as examples, Climhazzard doesn't do much large-scale damage, while Ultima destroys an entire planet. Climhazzard only managed to cripple four people. It didn't even kill them. The same can be said for Sephiroth's powerful attacks, such as Supernova. I suppose we can't gauge the exact power of them, but I think it's safe to assume that he used them during the battle, and after the fight, the planet was very clearly there. So, while Supernova and such may be strong attacks, they couldn't possibly contain the destructive potential of Kuja's Ultima because they didn't destroy the planet they were used on. Even Meteor, the most powerful thing Sephiroth ever brought on the planet (even if it wasn't due to his own strength), was only meant to injure the planet. So I'm not really sure why you think that they can't be compared.

Actually we don't, In the reunion files it said that Sephiroth was more powerful then ever, yet in his battle with Cloud he never exerted himself, instead he proved that his swordsmanship is better than clouds. He didn't kill cloud, instead he stabbed him in the shoulder rather then in a organ, you of course covered this. Then his own arrogance led to him getting killed.

Yes, it's true that Sephiroth was said to have been in his strongest form in Advent Children, but I don't imagine that he gained any incredible new abilities, just that the ones he had were enhanced. He clearly wasn't a planet buster. The only real large-scale effect he had on anything was when he created that storm above the ruins of Midgar. While Sephiroth was certainly stronger than he was in Final Fantasy VII, I doubt that the difference could be enough to close the gap between him and Trance Kuja, considering the sheer magnitude of what Kuja did while in Trance form. Yeah, we didn't see what he could do, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume he maintained all of the abilities he displayed up until that point, which I believe were superhuman physical abilities, flight, telekinesis, teleportation, telepathy, control of Jenova Cells, Iakiri, Octaslash, and some degree of magical proficiency. Since he didn't seem to receive a physical boost (we saw him pulling off feats of that magnitude in Crisis Core), I think we can say, then, that only his Jenova-related abilities (telekinesis, teleportation, telepathy, magic, and control of Jenova Cells) received a significant boost. Besides, if he really had the power to significantly damage the world in one fell swoop, I think he would've done it.

Bear in Mind, Terra was a weak and dieing planet , and that nobody was on it. But yes what you say is true.

It doesn't matter if there was anyone left on the planet. I'm talking about the size of the planet itself. Terra was still a legitimate, full-sized planet. Regardless of how many people were on it, Kuja managed to obliterate it with a single spell. Even if there were people still on Terra, they would've died when Kuja destroyed it. It isn't as though citizens living on a planet create some sort of protective dome around the planet. Regardless of their presence, Terra was destroyed. Its overall mass wasn't affected by who was or was not living on it, which was what I was referring to. If someone were to destroy, oh, say, Mars, it would still take an incredibly powerful weapon to destroy something of that size whether there were people there or not. We're talking many times more powerful than a nuke.

Its unfair because Kuja and Sephiroth both showed durability, Sephiroth when cloud stabbed him in the back, and was still able to run away and flee, and Kuja taking a blast from Bahamut and coming out only scratched. Omnislash vs Mega Flare is arguable in FF terms, because Omnislash does more(in numbers), but realistically Mega Flare would do more, its a toss up in the air.

I didn't mean to imply that Sephiroth wasn't durable, just that Kuja seemed more durable than him. While Sephiroth took a hit from the Buster Sword and kept going, the blade still managed to completely pierce his body and forced him to limp around. Kuja, however, took what could easily be considered a more powerful attack (Mega Flare) without so much as missing a beat. In other words, Sephiroth was forced to flee when stabbed, while Kuja was ready for more even after taking the direct hit. When it comes to the subject of Omnislash against Mega Flare, it'd look like Mega Flare would do more damage, but Omnislash is the most powerful attack of the main character, so I can only assume it would hit incredibly hard...especially considering it seems sufficient for use as a finishing blow against the final boss. On the other hand, Mega Flare is a powerful attack coming from one of the most powerful Summon Spirits out there...and very few Final Fantasy characters ever manage to solo a Summon. Though the fact remains, the difference between them can't be that great; I'm going to guess that they're relatively equal in terms of overall power, and Kuja walked away from the Mega Flare virtually unharmed.

Your very welcome my friend I await your reply

- Kuja

Make your move, worthy adversary. I stand ready for your counterattack! Have at you!

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "incomparable". The attacks are very clearly comparable, since we see what they're both capable of. Again, using Climhazzard and Ultima as examples, Climhazzard doesn't do much large-scale damage, while Ultima destroys an entire planet. Climhazzard only managed to cripple four people. It didn't even kill them. The same can be said for Sephiroth's powerful attacks, such as Supernova. I suppose we can't gauge the exact power of them, but I think it's safe to assume that he used them during the battle, and after the fight, the planet was very clearly there. So, while Supernova and such may be strong attacks, they couldn't possibly contain the destructive potential of Kuja's Ultima because they didn't destroy the planet they were used on. Even Meteor, the most powerful thing Sephiroth ever brought on the planet (even if it wasn't due to his own strength), was only meant to injure the planet. So I'm not really sure why you think that they can't be compared.

Alright sir, it seems I have confused you unintentionally, by incomparible in terms of power, because one blew up a planet, and the other crippled the party .

Yes, it's true that Sephiroth was said to have been in his strongest form in Advent Children, but I don't imagine that he gained any incredible new abilities, just that the ones he had were enhanced. He clearly wasn't a planet buster. The only real large-scale effect he had on anything was when he created that storm above the ruins of Midgar. While Sephiroth was certainly stronger than he was in Final Fantasy VII, I doubt that the difference could be enough to close the gap between him and Trance Kuja, considering the sheer magnitude of what Kuja did while in Trance form. Yeah, we didn't see what he could do, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume he maintained all of the abilities he displayed up until that point, which I believe were superhuman physical abilities, flight, telekinesis, teleportation, telepathy, control of Jenova Cells, Iakiri, Octaslash, and some degree of magical proficiency. Since he didn't seem to receive a physical boost (we saw him pulling off feats of that magnitude in Crisis Core), I think we can say, then, that only his Jenova-related abilities (telekinesis, teleportation, telepathy, magic, and control of Jenova Cells) received a significant boost. Besides, if he really had the power to significantly damage the world in one fell swoop, I think he would've done it.

Ahh but that the thing, you don't know if Sephiroth gained any abilities, then again neither do I. But bear in mind Sephiroths motives were again not to destroy the planet, as such I question why you keep bringing that up.

It doesn't matter if there was anyone left on the planet. I'm talking about the size of the planet itself. Terra was still a legitimate, full-sized planet. Regardless of how many people were on it, Kuja managed to obliterate it with a single spell. Even if there were people still on Terra, they would've died when Kuja destroyed it. It isn't as though citizens living on a planet create some sort of protective dome around the planet. Regardless of their presence, Terra was destroyed. Its overall mass wasn't affected by who was or was not living on it, which was what I was referring to. If someone were to destroy, oh, say, Mars, it would still take an incredibly powerful weapon to destroy something of that size whether there were people there or not. We're talking many times more powerful than a nuke.

I said what you said is true, what more do you want >.>, Judas explain your treachery!! But yeah again all solid facts, that I cant argue.



I didn't mean to imply that Sephiroth wasn't durable, just that Kuja seemed more durable than him. While Sephiroth took a hit from the Buster Sword and kept going, the blade still managed to completely pierce his body and forced him to limp around. Kuja, however, took what could easily be considered a more powerful attack (Mega Flare) without so much as missing a beat. In other words, Sephiroth was forced to flee when stabbed, while Kuja was ready for more even after taking the direct hit. When it comes to the subject of Omnislash against Mega Flare, it'd look like Mega Flare would do more damage, but Omnislash is the most powerful attack of the main character, so I can only assume it would hit incredibly hard...especially considering it seems sufficient for use as a finishing blow against the final boss. On the other hand, Mega Flare is a powerful attack coming from one of the most powerful Summon Spirits out there...and very few Final Fantasy characters ever manage to solo a Summon. Though the fact remains, the difference between them can't be that great; I'm going to guess that they're relatively equal in terms of overall power, and Kuja walked away from the Mega Flare virtually unharmed.

[/quote]

Fair enough, but the question remains whats more powerful? Omnislash or Mega Flare? Again it depends how you look it. What you said is 100% true, except bear in mind when Cloud stabbed Sephiroth, he wasn't integrated with jenova(her cells yes, but not her head). And he didn't have her psionic powers either

Make your move, worthy adversary. I stand ready for your counterattack! Have at you!

I have defended myself against your attack, en garde!

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Alright sir, it seems I have confused you unintentionally, by incomparible in terms of power, because one blew up a planet, and the other crippled the party .

Oh...I understand, now. I thought you meant that we couldn't compare the two of them for lack of information. I didn't mean to cause a misunderstanding.

Ahh but that the thing, you don't know if Sephiroth gained any abilities, then again neither do I. But bear in mind Sephiroths motives were again not to destroy the planet, as such I question why you keep bringing that up.

I bring it up because, even though Sephiroth wasn't trying to destroy the planet, he was still trying to injure it. If he had the power to destroy a planet, he'd have the power to injure one, too. Injuring a planet doesn't require as much energy as completely obliterating it. If Sephiroth had the destructive capacity for such a feat, he still would've used it, he just would've held back enough of his strength so that the planet wasn't totally destroyed, but was still damaged enough that he could safely use it as a vessel to travel the cosmos. It doesn't really matter if his goal was to destroy it or not; Sephiroth didn't demonstrate any capacity for large-scale destruction. Sure, physically speaking, he's amazingly strong, fast, etc., however, he never showed the ability to, say, take out an entire city at once. He seems more single combat-oriented, meaning he focuses on a smaller target instead of simply obliterating the surrounding area.

I also don't really see why he would've gained new abilities that he didn't have before completely merging with Jenova. It isn't as though he absorbed something he didn't have before. He'd always had control over and a large amount of J-Cells at his disposal. He simply got more Jenova Cells than he had before. Having more of the same thing shouldn't grant him any completely new abilities, it would just enhance the powers he already had. To what degree is not clear, but replacing a few traces of humanity with a few more Jenova Cells couldn't have had such an incredibly drastic effect on him. The difference between Safer Sephiroth and Advent Children Sephiroth probably wasn't too incredible. Though I think it's safe to say that he increased significantly in overall power, there's really no reason to believe that his capacity for raw, large-scale destruction increased so drastically.

I said what you said is true, what more do you want >.>, Judas explain your treachery!! But yeah again all solid facts, that I cant argue.

Oh...my bad. >_> *cough*

Fair enough, but the question remains whats more powerful? Omnislash or Mega Flare? Again it depends how you look it. What you said is 100% true, except bear in mind when Cloud stabbed Sephiroth, he wasn't integrated with jenova(her cells yes, but not her head). And he didn't have her psionic powers either

Well...Mega Flare was a more wide-spread attack. No doubt it would cause more overall collateral damage to the surrounding area, and, considering the amazing amounts of raw power Eidolons were capable of putting out in Final Fantasy IX, it'd be hard to claim that the Mega Flare didn't hit incredibly hard. I'd say that the main difference between Omnislash and Mega Flare is that Omnislash was physical while the damage dealt by Mega Flare was magical. It's especially difficult to compare because the power of Summon Spirits isn't consistent between Final Fantasy games. While Cloud might've been able to put up a solid fight against Bahamut SIN in Advent Children, that Bahamut didn't really seem as powerful as the Eidolons from IX. In fact, the summons from FFIX seem to be pretty much the most powerful summons we've seen in the series so far. For the most part, they're usually portrayed as powerful (very few FF characters have soloed them, as I said), but I don't really remember any other summons destroying entire cities so effortlessly like the ones in IX.

However, I really don't think psionic powers would help you much if someone stabbed you in the back with a sword...Telekinesis and such is good for moving/blowing stuff up with your mind, not for making your body tougher. I don't really think that absorbing the J-Cells really gave Sephiroth any substantial boost in physical strength, anyway. It's not as though he did anything in Advent Children that he didn't show himself capable of doing in Crisis Core, which took place before he gained control over Jenova. His enhancements seemed to be purely magical/mental, really. I don't think he gained much in the way of durability. Maybe he got a small boost, but I don't think it's likely his physical abilities increased exponentially. A while ago, I would've said that they did, but after watching the stuff he did in Crisis Core, I very much doubt that he got a boost in the way of strength, speed, etc., considering he was apparently always that strong.

I have defended myself against your attack, en garde!

You'll get no sympathy from me, knave. Prepare yourself.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Oh...I understand, now. I thought you meant that we couldn't compare the two of them for lack of information. I didn't mean to cause a misunderstanding.

Glad thats settled

I bring it up because, even though Sephiroth wasn't trying to destroy the planet, he was still trying to injure it. If he had the power to destroy a planet, he'd have the power to injure one, too. Injuring a planet doesn't require as much energy as completely obliterating it. If Sephiroth had the destructive capacity for such a feat, he still would've used it, he just would've held back enough of his strength so that the planet wasn't totally destroyed, but was still damaged enough that he could safely use it as a vessel to travel the cosmos. It doesn't really matter if his goal was to destroy it or not; Sephiroth didn't demonstrate any capacity for large-scale destruction. Sure, physically speaking, he's amazingly strong, fast, etc., however, he never showed the ability to, say, take out an entire city at once. He seems more single combat-oriented, meaning he focuses on a smaller target instead of simply obliterating the surrounding area.

I also don't really see why he would've gained new abilities that he didn't have before completely merging with Jenova. It isn't as though he absorbed something he didn't have before. He'd always had control over and a large amount of J-Cells at his disposal. He simply got more Jenova Cells than he had before. Having more of the same thing shouldn't grant him any completely new abilities, it would just enhance the powers he already had. To what degree is not clear, but replacing a few traces of humanity with a few more Jenova Cells couldn't have had such an incredibly drastic effect on him. The difference between Safer Sephiroth and Advent Children Sephiroth probably wasn't too incredible. Though I think it's safe to say that he increased significantly in overall power, there's really no reason to believe that his capacity for raw, large-scale destruction increased so drastically.

Thats more your opinion. Let me give you an example. Pretend the planet is a cookie, pretend Kuja is a fat kid, and that Sephiroth is a skinny boy. Kuja eats the whole cookie because hes fat, and has a big appetite, Sephiroth only wants a piece, because hes skinny. What I'm trying to say is that destroying the planet isn't Sephiroths motive, just as the skinny boys motive wasn't to eat the whole cookie, as such to say he can't destroy it simply because he hasn't done it yet, just as who are we to say that the skinny boy can't finish the whole cookie simply because he didnt one time, see what I'm getting at?


Again neither you or I know if he truly gained any new abilities, but we can speculate whether he did/didn't which you clearly have done, but you back up it with facts, and thats always admirable.

Oh...my bad. >_> *cough*

Sal good my friend .

Well...Mega Flare was a more wide-spread attack. No doubt it would cause more overall collateral damage to the surrounding area, and, considering the amazing amounts of raw power Eidolons were capable of putting out in Final Fantasy IX, it'd be hard to claim that the Mega Flare didn't hit incredibly hard. I'd say that the main difference between Omnislash and Mega Flare is that Omnislash was physical while the damage dealt by Mega Flare was magical. It's especially difficult to compare because the power of Summon Spirits isn't consistent between Final Fantasy games. While Cloud might've been able to put up a solid fight against Bahamut SIN in Advent Children, that Bahamut didn't really seem as powerful as the Eidolons from IX. In fact, the summons from FFIX seem to be pretty much the most powerful summons we've seen in the series so far. For the most part, they're usually portrayed as powerful (very few FF characters have soloed them, as I said), but I don't really remember any other summons destroying entire cities so effortlessly like the ones in IX.

However, I really don't think psionic powers would help you much if someone stabbed you in the back with a sword...Telekinesis and such is good for moving/blowing stuff up with your mind, not for making your body tougher. I don't really think that absorbing the J-Cells really gave Sephiroth any substantial boost in physical strength, anyway. It's not as though he did anything in Advent Children that he didn't show himself capable of doing in Crisis Core, which took place before he gained control over Jenova. His enhancements seemed to be purely magical/mental, really. I don't think he gained much in the way of durability. Maybe he got a small boost, but I don't think it's likely his physical abilities increased exponentially. A while ago, I would've said that they did, but after watching the stuff he did in Crisis Core, I very much doubt that he got a boost in the way of strength, speed, etc., considering he was apparently always that strong.

What you say here is hard to counter, bear in mind, Cloud took a direct blow from Bahamut sins Mega Flare and was able to keep coming with his sword , saying Bahamut and Bahamut Sin aren't on the same level in terms of power is unfair of you to say, as it comes from observations, and not facts. But your opinion is your opinion, and who Am i to say your wrong .

What im about to say here comes from pure speculation. I truly believe Sephiroth gained some unknown powers, but as such we haven't seen what they are. So basically to compare Sephiroth before his jump into the lifestream and power gain, to when Kuja took a direct blast from Bahamut are completely different.

You'll get no sympathy from me, knave. Prepare yourself.

I dont need your sympathy, I need you defeated! Have at thee!

Lol debating with you is fun, I'll be sure to make a thread similiar to this one, and I want your opinion!

- Kuja

 

[The_Oathkeeper]

Thats more your opinion. Let me give you an example. Pretend the planet is a cookie, pretend Kuja is a fat kid, and that Sephiroth is a skinny boy. Kuja eats the whole cookie because hes fat, and has a big appetite, Sephiroth only wants a piece, because hes skinny. What I'm trying to say is that destroying the planet isn't Sephiroths motive, just as the skinny boys motive wasn't to eat the whole cookie, as such to say he can't destroy it simply because he hasn't done it yet, just as who are we to say that the skinny boy can't finish the whole cookie simply because he didnt one time, see what I'm getting at?

Yes, but if you have the power to eat a cookie, you have the power to take a bite out of a cookie. Let's say Kuja went on a diet and decided to exercise his self-control by only eating half of the cookie. That's well-within his capabilities because he already showed himself capable of eating the whole cookie. Sephiroth, however, cannot even eat half the cookie. He's never demonstrated the ability to bite off a particularly large chunk of the cookie at once time. He can only nibble away at the cookie very slowly until eventually, possibly within hours, he's eaten the whole thing simply because of how long he's been at it. It's not that he doesn't want to eat the entire cookie, it's just that he's not capable of swallowing it in one bite, whereas Kuja is. Sephiroth's goal may simply be to consume a bit of the cookie and then use it as a vessel to travel the cosmos, but his power isn't sufficient for even that. Otherwise, he would've done so on the spot.

Again neither you or I know if he truly gained any new abilities, but we can speculate whether he did/didn't which you clearly have done, but you back up it with facts, and thats always admirable.

Thank you, but I certainly don't doubt that Sephiroth gained a boost in power. I simply don't see any reason to believe that he gained any abilities that he didn't have before. Let's say I started a fire somewhere. Then, let's assume I added more fire to the existing fire. Though the fire would be more powerful, it wouldn't have gained any new properties that it didn't have before; it's still fire and nothing more, even if it's much a stronger fire than it was before. That's what happened to Sephiroth. He acquired more Jenova Cells and merged with them. However, he didn't gain anything new that he didn't have before. He simply acquired a larger amount of something he already had. While I suppose I can't be 100% sure whether or not Sephiroth gained new abilities until we see him fighting seriously, I can say that I really don't have any reason to believe that he did.

What you say here is hard to counter, bear in mind, Cloud took a direct blow from Bahamut sins Mega Flare and was able to keep coming with his sword , saying Bahamut and Bahamut Sin aren't on the same level in terms of power is unfair of you to say, as it comes from observations, and not facts. But your opinion is your opinion, and who Am i to say your wrong .

Yeah, Cloud took a direct blow from Bahamut SIN, but he had a shield around him created by Aerith when he did it. It wasn't through his own power that he survived the attack, but because he had help. I'm primarily basing this on what we've seen of Bahamut SIN and of the Eidolons in Final Fantasy IX. In Advent Children, Bahamut SIN never showed the capacity to destroy a city or even a particularly large radius of land. Considering it was brought about by Kadaj to cause as much mayhem as possible, I think it was displaying its full power there. It primarily relied on its physical strength and the occasional energy blast, actually (and they didn't really cause that much damage to the city itself, only to specific buildings and targets). Meanwhile, the Eidolons in FFIX were shown to be capable of destroying entire cities with a single attack, and Bahamut was said to be the King of the Eidolons, meaning it was obviously at least among the strongest. Furthermore, Bahamut in IX fired off a barrage of Mega Flares one-after-another, whereas it took Bahamut SIN quite a while to charge up a single, significantly weaker Mega Flare. Based on this, I can say with relative certainty that the summons in IX were stronger than the summons in VII.

What im about to say here comes from pure speculation. I truly believe Sephiroth gained some unknown powers, but as such we haven't seen what they are. So basically to compare Sephiroth before his jump into the lifestream and power gain, to when Kuja took a direct blast from Bahamut are completely different.

While he may very well have gained new powers, I still don't think that he received a boost in his physical abilities. Swordsmanship and flight were the two abilities he used against Cloud, meaning we did see what he was capable of physically speaking, or at least something close to it. In the way of durability, a single Omnislash Version 5 was still all that was needed to take him out. Remember, Sephiroth hadn't sustained any damage prior to that, yet Omnislash was still sufficient to kill him. Now, don't get me wrong, I realize that Omnislash v5 is an extremely powerful attack, but so was Mega Flare. Basically, what we end up with is this:

Kuja+Hit By a Powerful Attack=Scratch

Sephiroth+Hit By a Powerful Attack=Dead

Kuja took so very little damage from that attack that it's almost ridiculous. He only got a cut. That basically means that Bahamut's Mega Flare was the equivalent of me accidentally pricking my finger on a thorn to Kuja. It was nothing to him, whereas Omnislash was sufficient for taking Sephiroth out.

I dont need your sympathy, I need you defeated! Have at thee!

Think what you want, but you'll be begging for mercy before you know it.

Lol debating with you is fun, I'll be sure to make a thread similiar to this one, and I want your opinion!

- Kuja

I look forward to it.

 

[Albel]

Lol, Oathkeeper it seems like every thread I see you post in reverts to your review on the Seph v Cloud fights. I truly admire your patience.

Getting on topic though, Sephiroth seems to show way more potential, and I can see him taking Kuja seriously, so I would have to say Seph wins this one.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Yes, but if you have the power to eat a cookie, you have the power to take a bite out of a cookie. Let's say Kuja went on a diet and decided to exercise his self-control by only eating half of the cookie. That's well-within his capabilities because he already showed himself capable of eating the whole cookie. Sephiroth, however, cannot even eat half the cookie. He's never demonstrated the ability to bite off a particularly large chunk of the cookie at once time. He can only nibble away at the cookie very slowly until eventually, possibly within hours, he's eaten the whole thing simply because of how long he's been at it. It's not that he doesn't want to eat the entire cookie, it's just that he's not capable of swallowing it in one bite, whereas Kuja is. Sephiroth's goal may simply be to consume a bit of the cookie and then use it as a vessel to travel the cosmos, but his power isn't sufficient for even that. Otherwise, he would've done so on the spot.

Sorry for my late response, my computer has been broken for about 3 days, and my bro aka Socrates wouldn't let me use his >.>.

Thats what I'm trying to point out, we dont know if Sephiroth had the ability to finish the cookie . What you say is fair since Kuja demonstrated he can eat the cookie, and come on, dont base Sephiroths powa on a movie!

Thank you, but I certainly don't doubt that Sephiroth gained a boost in power. I simply don't see any reason to believe that he gained any abilities that he didn't have before. Let's say I started a fire somewhere. Then, let's assume I added more fire to the existing fire. Though the fire would be more powerful, it wouldn't have gained any new properties that it didn't have before; it's still fire and nothing more, even if it's much a stronger fire than it was before. That's what happened to Sephiroth. He acquired more Jenova Cells and merged with them. However, he didn't gain anything new that he didn't have before. He simply acquired a larger amount of something he already had. While I suppose I can't be 100% sure whether or not Sephiroth gained new abilities until we see him fighting seriously, I can say that I really don't have any reason to believe that he did.

Valid Example, and Fair Enough. But you still dont know .

Yeah, Cloud took a direct blow from Bahamut SIN, but he had a shield around him created by Aerith when he did it. It wasn't through his own power that he survived the attack, but because he had help. I'm primarily basing this on what we've seen of Bahamut SIN and of the Eidolons in Final Fantasy IX. In Advent Children, Bahamut SIN never showed the capacity to destroy a city or even a particularly large radius of land. Considering it was brought about by Kadaj to cause as much mayhem as possible, I think it was displaying its full power there. It primarily relied on its physical strength and the occasional energy blast, actually (and they didn't really cause that much damage to the city itself, only to specific buildings and targets). Meanwhile, the Eidolons in FFIX were shown to be capable of destroying entire cities with a single attack, and Bahamut was said to be the King of the Eidolons, meaning it was obviously at least among the strongest. Furthermore, Bahamut in IX fired off a barrage of Mega Flares one-after-another, whereas it took Bahamut SIN quite a while to charge up a single, significantly weaker Mega Flare. Based on this, I can say with relative certainty that the summons in IX were stronger than the summons in VII.

The problem with this, is that when the Eidolons destroyed those cities they had no resistance . Look what happened to Bahamut when he faced Alexander, Atomos destroyed Lindblum partly because nobody was there to stop him, Odin destroyed Cleyra because again NOBODY STOPPED HIM . As such to compare people based on what they've destroyed just based on that isnt fair.

While he may very well have gained new powers, I still don't think that he received a boost in his physical abilities. Swordsmanship and flight were the two abilities he used against Cloud, meaning we did see what he was capable of physically speaking, or at least something close to it. In the way of durability, a single Omnislash Version 5 was still all that was needed to take him out. Remember, Sephiroth hadn't sustained any damage prior to that, yet Omnislash was still sufficient to kill him. Now, don't get me wrong, I realize that Omnislash v5 is an extremely powerful attack, but so was Mega Flare. Basically, what we end up with is this:

Kuja+Hit By a Powerful Attack=Scratch

Sephiroth+Hit By a Powerful Attack=Dead

I hit Kuja with my Grand Lethal and he died ^^, also note that was a movie, and Sephiroth left himself wide open for that, I'm sure even Kuja would die if Omnislash hit him. But again we don't know. If you watch Last Order we dont see much of Cloud vs Sephiroth just Cloud stabbing Sephiroth in the back, and Sephiroth stabbing him lol. But in the Movie we see Sephiroth is a much better Swordsman then Cloud. Again I say he never exerted himself against Cloud!

Kuja took so very little damage from that attack that it's almost ridiculous. He only got a cut. That basically means that Bahamut's Mega Flare was the equivalent of me accidentally pricking my finger on a thorn to Kuja. It was nothing to him, whereas Omnislash was sufficient for taking Sephiroth out.

The thing is the AMV doesn't show Kuja directly taking the blast, it flashes and when we next see Kuja hes in the air, for all I know he coulda dodged it and been slightly cut. What im saying here is far-fetched, and purely speculatory.

Think what you want, but you'll be begging for mercy before you know it.

I look forward to it.

Enough, prepare to die!

And I still don't know what the thread should be about got any ideas?