Cid, Vayne and Venat

[Davey Gaga]

I find myself constantly slapping my cheeks whenever I refer to either Cid, Vayne or Venat as "villains" of Final Fantasy XII. Why? I don't see either of them as Villains, to be honest. Venat rebelled against the Occuria and convinced Cid and Vayne to take "the reigns of history back into the hands of man." Venat didn't like that the Occuria ruled as Gods and so tried to give the power to Vayne, who would become the new Dynast-King.

The question: to what extent do you see Cid, Vayne or Venat as Villains/anti-heroes?

 

[Dark Fantasy X]

probably i see them as anti heros not villains... they aren't actually that bad, just an empire trying to throw down another empire, war is very common these days if you hadn't noticed

 

[AddleBoy]

I agree with Dark Fantasy X. The only reason they would be considered villain is because they took over Ashe's kingdom. Other than that, they aren't doing anything too bad. It's not like they're trying to take over or destroy the world or anything. I haven't beaten the game yet, but that's what I think.

 

[ubergoat]

Well their goals are pretty admirable I'll agree with you there, but the ends do not justify the means.

Cid pretty much murdered all of the Nabradians to test out the Nethicite and then took over Dalmasca too just for his research, if thats not a villain I dont know what is. It doesn't matter what justification he has, there are always better alternatives to what he was proposing there.

Vayne is pretty much a villain because he was involved in the wars with Dalmasca and Nabradia as well.

Spoiler

In addition at the end when the Dalmasca resistance fleet surrendered he continued to fire on them and kill them.

Venat isn't as much a villain as the other two, although he still is by association because he was still backing them up after what they were doing.

So, just because they think they were doing the right thing (and their goal was right I believe) doesnt mean that whatever they are doing is good. You'll find very few people who we consider 'villains' to actually look at themselves and think they are evil but dont care. Most of them do what they are doing because in their eyes it betters the world or helps somebody somewhere or some other form of justification.

 

[Eight]

Maybe the three were trying to do the right thing the wrong way, besides the thing that i think actually made them villains, along with most of Archades, is the way they tried to take over Nation after Nation just for the unneeded power, but mainly, it was their actions that made the three villains, not their intentions.

 

[Blkwaltz]

Alright so the only one I'd consider as a anti-hero is Venat.

Cid, like someone else said, wiped out an entire town as a test to Nethicite, and he held little regard for human life.

Vayne looked to at first do his questionable deeds in order to keep his brother from having to do them. Then he did it and claimed it was to put history back in the reigns of man like Cid also said.

This is a noble goal, to be sure, especially when the gods have so little regard for human life. But, the problem is both of them had this as a secondary goal for personal power, either because of frustration or madness.
As evidence for Cid Balthier said: "You did all this just to become a god?"
As for Vayne during the talk with Cid and Venat he says "Too long have my deeds gone unrewarded."

As for Venat, he/she is like the rest of the gods and has no capacity for humans, almost like ants and they only see the worth of each ant hill. Venat is commendable because it saw past at least this part and is less evil than the gods because it wouldnt level Archadia because of some bad apples. But, at the same time it still lacks sufficient capacity for the worth of a human and because of this is only capable of achieving an ultimate goal for humans, the destruction of nethicite, but cannot see past the vision of humans being like ants and because of this cannot go past anti-hero status because it still is willing to kill some for the whole.

But, at the same time Cid and Vayne are almost tragic villains because they both still care about the goal, such as when Vayne tells Venat to find another to further its cause because he cannot fulfill it.

The irony is, Ashe fulfilled this cause. So, two parties after the same goal whether or not they knew it, the party that saw the meaning but didn't see the goal attained it, while the party that saw the goal but lost sight of the meaning in the words of the goal failed.

 

[TacticalShadow0]

They weren't exactly villains, they just effected us on Venat's quest. Venat's wanted Vayne to become the Dynast King and in that process they needed to like destroy all countries opposing them I guess. I'm wasn't really sure on that part of the story. They weren't bad guys they were just the people who seemed evil.

 

[Blkwaltz]

So wiping out Nalbina for an experiment is seemingly evil? Killing your father? Ordering the death of someone who saw through your ploy in order to cover it up? They may have had honorable goals but you cant look past mass murder and betrayal of family

 

[LittleAngel]

Uh....OK....to those of you who say Vayne is not a villian here's my response

Spoiler

Vayne MURDERED his brothers....He murdered his father....He wanted world domination.....He didn't care who he killed, even allies were fair game

if that doesn't make him a villian I don't know what else qualifies.

As to Cid, he became a villian when he agreed to help Venat. He knew what he was getting into, he wanted absolute power and to

Spoiler

become a God!

Come, on......he was an egotistical, self-important 'kill all who get in my way' kinda a guy.

Venat was the worst.

Spoiler

He comes from a race of superior beings that control the tides of human fate

He manipulated weak-minded fools with big ambitions, like Cid, as his own little play-things and to get back at his own people.

They were all villians.....IMO

 

[Blkwaltz]

Alright I agree with most of that except Venat, I mean he was being manipulative, true, but there was a reason that set him apart from the other gods, we might not know what it was, but it couldnt be more power because its goal was to put control back into the hands of man, a supposedly lesser race. So theres gotta be some other motivation Venat had besides using people as play pieces, because he could've done that all he wanted before he stole the power of nethicite from the other gods. Why would it try to get back at the other gods? They never said that was its ambition...god Im dying to start an argument here because no one is reading other peoples posts before they do their own

 

[RapidPunishment]

I bet imperials veiw them all as heroes

cept cid hes a villian cause took me years defeat him...... well 5 goes

 

[ubergoat]

Alright I agree with most of that except Venat, I mean he was being manipulative, true, but there was a reason that set him apart from the other gods, we might not know what it was, but it couldnt be more power because its goal was to put control back into the hands of man, a supposedly lesser race. So theres gotta be some other motivation Venat had besides using people as play pieces, because he could've done that all he wanted before he stole the power of nethicite from the other gods. Why would it try to get back at the other gods? They never said that was its ambition...god Im dying to start an argument here because no one is reading other peoples posts before they do their own

It doesnt really matter what motivation he has, if he wants power, to get back at the gods, the 'reigns of history' back in the hands of man, it all doesnt matter in terms of if he's evil or not. He helps Cid and Vayne commit the crimes they do and keeps backing them up. Just because he himself doesnt commit the crimes doesnt mean he isnt responsible.

I'll agree though, if he was doing what he was doing for a good cause (the history blah) then he might be considered less evil. But he still should be considered evil, there could have been much better ways for him to go about it especially since he is a god so he would have pretty much as long as he needed to plan out his way to carry out the goal.

 

[Hitomi]

Hrm...

Well, I would go with the whole anti-hero thing as they seem to be that way.

Tacticalshadow0... Well... XD He fell asleep during the cutscene with Ashe confronting the Occuria, so I'm not too surprised that he doesn't really understand. We all know that the Occuria wanted reign of destruction since they gave Ashe the Treaty Sword to cut some shards of Nethicite to make a new stone and wield it to destroy all of Ivalice.

And Venat didn't want that. Once I realized that Venat looked like the Occuria, it occurred to me that Venat had been one who had rebelled against them.

Vayne, to be honest, I hate, I will say this right now. I consider him as the true villain of FFXII since he did unacceptable things to try to take "history back in the reign of man from the gods." Mind you, I do respect you guys to say that he is an anti-hero and stuff but, to me, he's a villain. What he did was truly unacceptable, even if it was for a supposed good cause.

As for Cid... Well... XD I'd say he's different from the traditional Cids. But, in a way, he did help us? Even though I think the creators look to aim at him as a villain... I'd say he helped us in some way to progress through the game after he died.

Spoiler

o_o; And him being related to Balthier was truly unexpected.

 

[DarioRusso]

Oh silly, silly theists, the ends always justify the means. If you must kill one innocent to save two innocents of equal value (not two horrible people) then you must. It's easy to criticize the actions of Vayne, Cid, and Venat in the short term, but blood is always shed during revolution and war. If many, many people have to die to give humanity autonomy (free will), then many people will die. In the long term the deaths that vayne and associates caused would be (I think) overshadowed by the ultimate good they caused.

Ashe and Co have varying intentions: first she wants to destroy the empire, then she wants to be the dynast king, then she wants to do the same thing as Vayne. Their goals have varying degrees of morality (surely destroying the empire or becoming the dynast king would involve many imperial deaths) but almost no degree of sucess. Ashe and her friends play 'fair' for most of the game, and they fail, costing several allies lives in the process. In fact most of the killing done by the empire is a result of Ashe's refusal to accept that her country lost the war.

Yes, Vayne does kill his father, but that comes with the territory. Alexander the Great had his father killed, Catherine the Great had her husband killed, Her grandson, Alexander I (the popular emporer who defeated Napoleon) had his father killed, all of them were considered great leaders who greatly improved their nations. Wanting power is not nessecarily a bad thing, especially when that power could be used for good. In fact we don't know if the vindictive Ashe would have made a better dynast king than Vayne, who saw himself as more of a benevolent dictator. The fact is that we will never find out what kind of a leader Vayne would have been because Ashe killed him before he got to use any of his power.

 

[ubergoat]

Oh silly, silly theists, the ends always justify the means. If you must kill one innocent to save two innocents of equal value (not two horrible people) then you must. It's easy to criticize the actions of Vayne, Cid, and Venat in the short term, but blood is always shed during revolution and war. If many, many people have to die to give humanity autonomy (free will), then many people will die. In the long term the deaths that vayne and associates caused would be (I think) overshadowed by the ultimate good they caused.

Okay...but I dont see really how that applies. When you see him before the battle over Rabanastre ordering them to keep firing on the rebels after they surrendered, how is that helping anything? The Dalmascans dont have anything to do with the Occuria, in actual fact they didnt even know they existed really. He could have easily a long time ago just retreated from Dalmasca (or never invaded in the first case), did he? Nope.

He could have never invaded Nabradia either. Don't throw that argument at me that he was testing out his nethicite, he could have done that over an empty ocean or something where nobody would be hurt and still see the effects pretty well.

Killing his father? Well for crying out loud just talk to him and convince him to do the same thing he was. His father was portrayed as a good and understanding ruler, if his cause truly is in the best interests of the people then it would have been possible to explain to his father that it was right.

I have a lot more to say but don't know exactly how to put it into words...oh well. Enough said, although I'd be really interested to see how you can EXPLAIN how him killing so many people helps him accomplish the goal of taking history back into the hands of man. If you can do that for me...well props to you man, but right now your argument just has too many holes in it to accept.

 

[DarioRusso]

Archadia (not just Vayne) invaded Nabradia because they wanted the land, believe it or not Empires invade places and take what isn't theirs for their own benefit (England, France, Spain, Germany [even before WWII], Aztecs, Maya, Portugal, Russia, Rome, Greece, China, Japan, Mongols, America, Apache, Zulus, Arabia, Egypt, Austria, everybody). Yes, we can spend all day debating the morality of war but the simple fact is that and empires need to eat to survive (remember Archadia is competing with Rozaria). From what I gathered the nethicite explosion was an accident, but it did prove to be a useful accident.

2nd, if you listened to the dialogue in the game the senate was urging the Emperor to kill Vayne and set Larsa up as the next Emperor, Vayne didn't have the luxury of negotiation. I don't think everyone that played the game is taking into account the complex politics that are occurring in Rozaria, Archadia, and the Resistance. Vayne wants to do more than just free man from the gods, he wants to ensure the future of Archadia (he is the Emporer, thats what they do). Archadia was on the verge of war with Rozaria (who are itching to go to war with Archadia and grab LAND). The Rozarian were using the Resistance as cannon fodder, something to soften up the Archadians but ultimately die. The Archadians were trying to destroy the resistance because that what smart politicians do to resistence. They wanted to totally obliterate the resistance to send a message to anyone else who might think of resisting. Also allowing the resistance to survive would mean leaving a enemy that could just rise up later. You never, never, never let a resistance live and run away to fight another day, it's just common sense. Also do people really think that Rozaria had better intentions for Dalmasca, despite what the silver tounged Al Cid may say, Rozaria is an Empire, an Empire that has once tried to move into Dalmascan territory (Rozarian oil fields in the sandsea). Dalmasca was just the unlucky country two be between to Empires that wanted to go to war (sort of like Belgium).

Damn it people. People die in war.

 

[ubergoat]

Archadia (not just Vayne) invaded Nabradia because they wanted the land, believe it or not Empires invade places and take what isn't theirs for their own benefit (England, France, Spain, Germany [even before WWII], Aztecs, Maya, Portugal, Russia, Rome, Greece, China, Japan, Mongols, America, Apache, Zulus, Arabia, Egypt, Austria, everybody). Yes, we can spend all day debating the morality of war but the simple fact is that and empires need to eat to survive (remember Archadia is competing with Rozaria). From what I gathered the nethicite explosion was an accident, but it did prove to be a useful accident.

Invading territories is normal, I can accept that I guess. But did you see the way they treated the subdued Dalmascans? How would you like it if you one day had a normal home and the next day was forced to live in the sewers. Not cool at all man. Now I don't know if the nethicite explosion was an accident or not but Vayne can be quoted telling Cid that he invaded two kingdoms for his experiments, so even if they didn't know exactly what was going to happen they had an idea. That is like the U.S. dropping nukes on Japan, they didn't know exactly what would happen but they did know it was going to be a huge bomb.

2nd, if you listened to the dialogue in the game the senate was urging the Emperor to kill Vayne and set Larsa up as the next Emperor, Vayne didn't have the luxury of negotiation. I don't think everyone that played the game is taking into account the complex politics that are occurring in Rozaria, Archadia, and the Resistance. Vayne wants to do more than just free man from the gods, he wants to ensure the future of Archadia (he is the Emporer, thats what they do).

First of all they were having Vayne killed for a reason, I'm not saying that they were doing the right thing and that there were no other ways to go about it but Vayne isn't blameless in the matter. The senate feared Vayne because they foresaw what would happen when he eventually did come into power so they tried to stop it. It seems to me that whatever was going on between Vayne and the senate had already been happening for a while before we started coming into the picture so we cant really tell who truly started the whole shoobah with Vayne vs. the senate.

Archadia was on the verge of war with Rozaria (who are itching to go to war with Archadia and grab LAND). The Rozarian were using the Resistance as cannon fodder, something to soften up the Archadians but ultimately die.

One of the key reasons Rozaria and Archadia were on the verge of war is BECAUSE of Vayne. Al-Cid shows that happening quite well in our meeting with him on Mt. Bur-Omisace, quoting a list of half a dozen to maybe a dozen fleets put together to become the largest fleet in the history of Ivalice. I dunno but thats not exactly a good way for him to go about preventing the war from happening. Also, as this was happening Larsa and Al-cid were attempting to stop the war from happening by speaking to the emperor, instead Vayne goes and kills him and stops all chance of the war from being thwarted. You said earlier that the sacrifice of one innocent to save the lives of two is a worthwhile sacrifice, well if you really believe that then Vayne should have gladly let the senate have him dead or at least exiled if that would have his father find peace between the two empires, the fact that he doesn't shows that he doesn't have the interests of Archadia at heart.

The Archadians were trying to destroy the resistance because that what smart politicians do to resistence. They wanted to totally obliterate the resistance to send a message to anyone else who might think of resisting. Also allowing the resistance to survive would mean leaving a enemy that could just rise up later. You never, never, never let a resistance live and run away to fight another day, it's just common sense.

If they wanted to destroy the resistence they shouldn't have started it, first of all they shouldn't have invaded Dalmasca. After they did invade Dalmasca they shouldn't have treated them worse than dirt and had them live in the sewers and looked down upon as nobodies (go start a new game and just go through the first bit as Vaan up until he leaves for the Giza plains and try to tell me that I'm wrong on this point). Finally even after those two mistakes they should have simply withdrawn from Dalmasca and tried to find a way to make peace with them, it would not have made the Dalmascans good buddies with the Archadians but it would have definetly stopped the resistence (they get what they want) and there would be no reason for Dalmasca to be in the battle between Archadia and Rozaria anymore if it were to even continue.

Damn it people. People die in war.

Thank you for pointing that out, you're right! People really do die in war that is why you are supposed to try to prevent it by all means possible before jumping headfirst into it.

 

[DarioRusso]

First of all they were having Vayne killed for a reason, I'm not saying that they were doing the right thing and that there were no other ways to go about it but Vayne isn't blameless in the matter. The senate feared Vayne because they foresaw what would happen when he eventually did come into power so they tried to stop it. It seems to me that whatever was going on between Vayne and the senate had already been happening for a while before we started coming into the picture so we cant really tell who truly started the whole shoobah with Vayne vs. the senate.

I recognize the Senates motives and reasons for wanting Vayne dead, and by that right one would have to recognize Vayne’s own motives, i.e. stay alive. If the Emperor and the senate wanted Vayne dead then Vayne had a logical reason to strike back at them, survival. Even if Vayne was the most evil man in the world (which I don’t think he is) he would still have the right to try to survive.

One of the key reasons Rozaria and Archadia were on the verge of war is BECAUSE of Vayne. Al-Cid shows that happening quite well in our meeting with him on Mt. Bur-Omisace, quoting a list of half a dozen to maybe a dozen fleets put together to become the largest fleet in the history of Ivalice. I dunno but thats not exactly a good way for him to go about preventing the war from happening. Also, as this was happening Larsa and Al-cid were attempting to stop the war from happening by speaking to the emperor, instead Vayne goes and kills him and stops all chance of the war from being thwarted. You said earlier that the sacrifice of one innocent to save the lives of two is a worthwhile sacrifice, well if you really believe that then Vayne should have gladly let the senate have him dead or at least exiled if that would have his father find peace between the two empires, the fact that he doesn't shows that he doesn't have the interests of Archadia at heart.

Tension had existed between Archadia and Rozaria, according to FFXII, long before Vayne took over and long before the game began. The two are rival empire of equal power that are vying for the same territory, Dalmasca (the Rozarians are aiding or at least keeping in contact with the anti-Archadian resistence, their hands are not completely clean) much like Rome and Carthage with Sicily. The fact that Al-Cid and the Rozarians are even corresponding with the resistence could be grounds for the Archadians to go to war with their long time rival. Also, remember that Al-Cid says (near the end of the game) that there are some War-hawks in Rozaria who were itching to go to war with Archadia. If you remember these war-hawks overrode Al-Cids requests for peace and began to move the Rozarian fleet out to meet with the Arcadians after they were done with the resistence fleet (as I said before the Rozarians were using the resistence as cannon fodder). This war was coming, all Vayne did was hasten it, and give the Archadians a distinct advantage, the Bahamut.

If they wanted to destroy the resistence they shouldn't have started it, first of all they shouldn't have invaded Dalmasca. After they did invade Dalmasca they shouldn't have treated them worse than dirt and had them live in the sewers and looked down upon as nobodies (go start a new game and just go through the first bit as Vaan up until he leaves for the Giza plains and try to tell me that I'm wrong on this point). Finally even after those two mistakes they should have simply withdrawn from Dalmasca and tried to find a way to make peace with them, it would not have made the Dalmascans good buddies with the Archadians but it would have definetly stopped the resistence (they get what they want) and there would be no reason for Dalmasca to be in the battle between Archadia and Rozaria anymore if it were to even continue.

Archadia invaded Dalmasca for tactical reasons, it would act as a staging point for a possible war with Rozaria , plus it would act as a good resource of nethecite for the Arcahadian war machine. Considering that the city would be a war zone, moving all the citizens to underground residences was probably a good decision, the sewers could act makeshift bunkers (France and England did this to its own citizens during WWII). The Archadians did not treat the Dalmascans like dirt, they treated them like a conquered territory, despite making them bed underground they were still aloud to live and conduct business above ground with minimal harassment, as shown in the game. Vayne’s speech early in the game show that Archadia was at least trying to treat Dalmascans with some dignity.
The resistence is a complicated organization, being that it was made up of supporters of the deposed royal family, which obviously had some self-interests, as well as the Rozarians, who were less interested in the well being of Dalmasca and more in stifling Archadia. In the game it is shown that some Dalmascans like Vossler, are willing to work with Archadia, and it is explained by Judge Ghis that the Empire is willing to accept Queen Ashe as a Regent subordinate to Archadia (a strategy employed with great success by Persia and Greece) so long as the resistence dispersed. Ashe refused (and killed Vossler albeit in self defense) and thus resistence kept resisting. At this point, having tried to negotiate, Archadian and later Vayne decided to take a no quarter strategy with the resistence, as it would be unwise to leave them around with a war approaching. As for pulling out and giving back Dalmasca it’s sovereignty, it would be a tactical blunder. At that point in time the occupation of Dalmasca had become an investment, it would a very foolish (not to mention a waste of money) to pull out of a territory they had spent time and money to take. As I said Dalmasca was a strategic position for Archades as well as the first step in movements to make war on Rozaria, retreat would be illogical when Vayne and the Empire were so close to their goals (If they had eliminated the resistence Dalmasca then Vayne would have been able to wage his war with Rozaria, how successful it would have been we will never know). I can’t imagine Larsa’s retreat went over to well in Archadia, expansionist empires tend not to favor giving up territory.

Thank you for pointing that out, you're right! People really do die in war that is why you are supposed to try to prevent it by all means possible before jumping headfirst into it.

This is a point I think we will never agree on. I think the number of casualties (we are never given an exact number) are acceptable with the exception of Nabudis, which was a terrible accident (which Vayne was not responsible for). Considering that it was a war the Archadians showed amazing restraint when dealing with the resistance. With the exception of Mt Bur Omseince, there are very few civilian casualties (then again the resistence (Reddas) kills a lot of scientists during their attack on the Cid’s lab) that are the result of Vayne or the Archadian army. Mt Bur may have been a little overkill, but then again they were harboring the resistence.

 

[ubergoat]

I recognize the Senates motives and reasons for wanting Vayne dead, and by that right one would have to recognize Vayne’s own motives, i.e. stay alive. If the Emperor and the senate wanted Vayne dead then Vayne had a logical reason to strike back at them, survival. Even if Vayne was the most evil man in the world (which I don’t think he is) he would still have the right to try to survive.

I guess my point earlier was we couldnt know who struck the first blow. Vayne basically wants to become emperor and get rid of the senate (in self defence I suppose). The senate want to get rid of Vayne because they are scared of him. Both can be considered self defence so what it comes down to is who started it. If the senate really did start the whole shoobah then they would have definetly been in the wrong, Vayne might not be completely absolved of guilt because there could have been better ways to go about it but it wouldn't be so bad. If it turns out Vayne was the one who started it then the situation is reversed and Vayne is completely in the wrong and the senate only partially so. So I guess I'm saying we can't tell either way who is more in the wrong but I think both parties are in the wrong to some degree because there had to have been better ways to go about what they were attempting, maybe the senate should have picked exile or something like that and Vayne could have just thrown them out without killing them (if I remember right they ended up dying because of treason or something like that).

Tension had existed between Archadia and Rozaria, according to FFXII, long before Vayne took over and long before the game began. The two are rival empire of equal power that are vying for the same territory, Dalmasca (the Rozarians are aiding or at least keeping in contact with the anti-Archadian resistence, their hands are not completely clean) much like Rome and Carthage with Sicily. The fact that Al-Cid and the Rozarians are even corresponding with the resistence could be grounds for the Archadians to go to war with their long time rival. Also, remember that Al-Cid says (near the end of the game) that there are some War-hawks in Rozaria who were itching to go to war with Archadia. If you remember these war-hawks overrode Al-Cids requests for peace and began to move the Rozarian fleet out to meet with the Arcadians after they were done with the resistence fleet (as I said before the Rozarians were using the resistence as cannon fodder). This war was coming, all Vayne did was hasten it, and give the Archadians a distinct advantage, the Bahamut.

I never was trying to say that the only reason they were going to war was because of Vayne, there always are multiple reasons for anything to happen. What matters though is the fact that Vayne helped expediate the process, essentially going to war over something like what they were doing isn't right, Vayne helping the war come to pass sooner rather than later is what I'm saying he shouldn't have done. I agree with you on the point that some of the Rozarians who were itching for war were helping the war come to fruition as well putting them in this case in the same boat as Vayne. Essentially it takes two to tumble though, both groups are in the wrong and we can't just blame it all on either side.

Archadia invaded Dalmasca for tactical reasons, it would act as a staging point for a possible war with Rozaria , plus it would act as a good resource of nethecite for the Arcahadian war machine. Considering that the city would be a war zone, moving all the citizens to underground residences was probably a good decision, the sewers could act makeshift bunkers (France and England did this to its own citizens during WWII). The Archadians did not treat the Dalmascans like dirt, they treated them like a conquered territory, despite making them bed underground they were still aloud to live and conduct business above ground with minimal harassment, as shown in the game. Vayne’s speech early in the game show that Archadia was at least trying to treat Dalmascans with some dignity.

Now if they moved the Dalmascans underground for protection that would be passable if it was temporary, that was not the case though. We know this because first of all, when they conquered Dalmasca the possibility of war with Rozaria was there but it was not an immediate threat, if they wanted to move them underground for protection they should have waited until later (once it was sure that war was coming in the next few months maybe). The only reason the imperials moved them underground is to contain them and so that they could have the nice homes and such. Now I have no clue where you get the idea that the imperials didnt treat the Dalmascans like dirt. In the first scene where we see Vaan we see the soldier stealing from the merchant and then almost beating him up because the merchant argued about it. Later on when Vaan is coming back from the rogue tomato hunt there's the whole "This Chocobo is worth more than a hundred of you commoners" speech from the soldier. Now you mention Vaynes speech, well it's only a speech, we haven't seen him actually do anything for the Dalmascans yet so I'll just treat it like any other politicians speech...a load of bull@#%^. Considering what he did, mainly the murder of King Raminas and then blaming it on Basch, just so he could get in complete control of the Dalmascans, not a word he says in this regard can be trusted.

The resistence is a complicated organization, being that it was made up of supporters of the deposed royal family, which obviously had some self-interests, as well as the Rozarians, who were less interested in the well being of Dalmasca and more in stifling Archadia. In the game it is shown that some Dalmascans like Vossler, are willing to work with Archadia, and it is explained by Judge Ghis that the Empire is willing to accept Queen Ashe as a Regent subordinate to Archadia (a strategy employed with great success by Persia and Greece) so long as the resistence dispersed. Ashe refused (and killed Vossler albeit in self defense) and thus resistence kept resisting. At this point, having tried to negotiate, Archadian and later Vayne decided to take a no quarter strategy with the resistence, as it would be unwise to leave them around with a war approaching.

Who is in the resistance doesn't really matter, I think you're right that the Rozarians didn't have the Dalmascan interests at heart but the rest did, the only one who I think you'd want to argue that about would be Ashe and it is shown she does care about their interests when she decides to destroy the sun-cryst instead of using it for her own power (that would have resulted probably in even more destruction). Now you start talking about Judge Ghis wanting to make Ashe an imperial puppet or 'Regent Subordinate' if thats what you want to call it, basically what it comes down to is the question of wether or not that is good for Dalmasca, for the short term you could probably easily argue that it would be. With Ashe as the new ruler the living conditions would improve and blah blah blah. But then when it comes to anything that the imperials want done, either A) she has to comply with them, making it the same situation as before with even less options for the Dalmascans to do anything about it or B) Ashe would be forced to try to resist the imperials and wipe out another generation of her own country in a useless attempt at resistance. The deal looks good on the surface but really in the end the only change would be that the imperials would have more power over Dalmasca than they had before, right now they have military power but they cannot control the minds of the people. Through Ashe they would be taking both.

As for pulling out and giving back Dalmasca it’s sovereignty, it would be a tactical blunder. At that point in time the occupation of Dalmasca had become an investment, it would a very foolish (not to mention a waste of money) to pull out of a territory they had spent time and money to take. As I said Dalmasca was a strategic position for Archades as well as the first step in movements to make war on Rozaria, retreat would be illogical when Vayne and the Empire were so close to their goals (If they had eliminated the resistence Dalmasca then Vayne would have been able to wage his war with Rozaria, how successful it would have been we will never know). I can’t imagine Larsa’s retreat went over to well in Archadia, expansionist empires tend not to favor giving up territory.

Pulling out of Dalmasca is a tactical blunder you're saying here, well the whole invasion of Dalmasca is in fact a tactical blunder so either way it's going to be a lose lose situation. It's a stupid investment to pull out you say, well again its not that good of an idea to be staying in Dalmasca either. I don't really know what they get out of Dalmasca, I suppose some taxes or whatever. But then they have to commit so much military strength to keep the peace in Dalmasca, at the best they probably come out even (although from Vaynes point of view maybe ahead because, I don't really think he cares about human life that much so the loss of some soldiers doesnt mean much to him.). If they wanted to they could have easily withdrawn, given Dalmasca her sovereignty back and negotiate for their fleets to be allowed somewhere near the western border of Dalmasca if they really needed the place as a staging area. The wording of all that stuff would have to have been pretty specific but it would keep their strategic position, stop the need to commit resources towards maintaining the peace in Dalmasca and potentially in the future gain an ally if it was done properly (and early enough).

This is a point I think we will never agree on. I think the number of casualties (we are never given an exact number) are acceptable with the exception of Nabudis, which was a terrible accident (which Vayne was not responsible for). Considering that it was a war the Archadians showed amazing restraint when dealing with the resistance. With the exception of Mt Bur Omseince, there are very few civilian casualties (then again the resistence (Reddas) kills a lot of scientists during their attack on the Cid’s lab) that are the result of Vayne or the Archadian army. Mt Bur may have been a little overkill, but then again they were harboring the resistence.

I bet you're right, we wont ever agree on this point. But although Nabudis was an accident, like I said before they knew that nethicite was powerful and they were testing it out in a war scenario so they knew what kind of power as well, so just because they didn't know how bad it would turn out to be doesn't mean that they can just say "Whoops my bad, oh well whats done is done I wont worry about it". It still is their responsibility and Vayne does take some responsibility there too because he did know what Cid was doing at the time and he still allowed it to happen. Now the only reason the Archadians showed as much restraint as you give them credit for is because if they were doing any more that would just make the situation worse for them, with the resistence the more they crack down on them the more Dalmascans will join them. What Reddas did is his responsibility, he wasn't told to go kill a bunch of scientists he was just told to go find out information. The fact that he does kill scientists even though it is to find information is still just his problem and nobody elses, it sucks yes but it cant be put at the resistances feet. That is like someone from microsoft going and stealing a car and microsoft being blamed because its their employee, it just doesnt make sense.



A bit off topic, it's not that I don't want to debate with you (trust me I'll shoot down every single one of your arguments until the end of the earth ) but I'd still like to see what other people wanna say here as well...especially if said people are going to argue in my favor

 

[DarioRusso]

I guess my point earlier was we couldnt know who struck the first blow. Vayne basically wants to become emperor and get rid of the senate (in self defence I suppose). The senate want to get rid of Vayne because they are scared of him. Both can be considered self defence so what it comes down to is who started it. If the senate really did start the whole shoobah then they would have definetly been in the wrong, Vayne might not be completely absolved of guilt because there could have been better ways to go about it but it wouldn't be so bad. If it turns out Vayne was the one who started it then the situation is reversed and Vayne is completely in the wrong and the senate only partially so. So I guess I'm saying we can't tell either way who is more in the wrong but I think both parties are in the wrong to some degree because there had to have been better ways to go about what they were attempting, maybe the senate should have picked exile or something like that and Vayne could have just thrown them out without killing them (if I remember right they ended up dying because of treason or something like that).

Now we are getting somewhere.

I never was trying to say that the only reason they were going to war was because of Vayne, there always are multiple reasons for anything to happen. What matters though is the fact that Vayne helped expatiate the process, essentially going to war over something like what they were doing isn't right, Vayne helping the war come to pass sooner rather than later is what I'm saying he shouldn't have done. I agree with you on the point that some of the Rozarians who were itching for war were helping the war come to fruition as well putting them in this case in the same boat as Vayne. Essentially it takes two to tumble though, both groups are in the wrong and we can't just blame it all on either side.

Is it really bad of Vayne to hasten the conflict? Archadia has much to gain if it can eliminate its major rival in the region, Rozaria. Vayne made sure Archadia entered the war with a distinct advantage, the Bahamut. But because of the death of Vayne and the destruction of the Bahamut at the hands of the party, the war was cut short before it was ever able to begin. Vayne took a risk in going to war with Rozaria,, a risk that could have either payed huge dividends or could have been a disastrous, but those are risks that are taken when waging war.

Now if they moved the Dalmascans underground for protection that would be passable if it was temporary, that was not the case though. We know this because first of all, when they conquered Dalmasca the possibility of war with Rozaria was there but it was not an immediate threat, if they wanted to move them underground for protection they should have waited until later (once it was sure that war was coming in the next few months maybe). The only reason the imperials moved them underground is to contain them and so that they could have the nice homes and such. Now I have no clue where you get the idea that the imperials didn’t treat the Dalmascans like dirt. In the first scene where we see Vaan we see the soldier stealing from the merchant and then almost beating him up because the merchant argued about it. Later on when Vaan is coming back from the rogue tomato hunt there's the whole "This Chocobo is worth more than a hundred of you commoners" speech from the soldier. Now you mention Vaynes speech, well it's only a speech, we haven't seen him actually do anything for the Dalmascans yet so I'll just treat it like any other politicians speech...a load of bull@#%^. Considering what he did, mainly the murder of King Raminas and then blaming it on Basch, just so he could get in complete control of the Dalmascans, not a word he says in this regard can be trusted.

I still do not count a few comments made by a few soldiers as proof that the Dalmascans were treated like dirt, considering the fact all the other soldier and imperial npcs in Dalmasca will act civilly to the party, one, if you remember, even hires the party to kill a dangerous Wyvern which he fears may endanger the citizens of Dalmasca.
As we are talking about Vayne, Cid, and Venat I must remind you that none of them were responsible for the death of the King. It was the Basch’s brother, working for the Empire but not Vayne or Cid, who assassinated the king. Vayne took over Dalmasca some time after the war, so attributing transgressions made by the empire alone to Vayne is illogical.

Who is in the resistance doesn't really matter, I think you're right that the Rozarians didn't have the Dalmascan interests at heart but the rest did, the only one who I think you'd want to argue that about would be Ashe and it is shown she does care about their interests when she decides to destroy the sun-cryst instead of using it for her own power (that would have resulted probably in even more destruction). Now you start talking about Judge Ghis wanting to make Ashe an imperial puppet or 'Regent Subordinate' if thats what you want to call it, basically what it comes down to is the question of wether or not that is good for Dalmasca, for the short term you could probably easily argue that it would be. With Ashe as the new ruler the living conditions would improve and blah blah blah. But then when it comes to anything that the imperials want done, either A) she has to comply with them, making it the same situation as before with even less options for the Dalmascans to do anything about it or B) Ashe would be forced to try to resist the imperials and wipe out another generation of her own country in a useless attempt at resistance. The deal looks good on the surface but really in the end the only change would be that the imperials would have more power over Dalmasca than they had before, right now they have military power but they cannot control the minds of the people. Through Ashe they would be taking both.

Dalmasca was on its way to becoming a Archadian territory, much like land that Basch was from, Landis, which was conquered when Basch was young. The Republic of Landis had come to the point in which its citizens were full-fledged Archadians, to the point in which citizens of Landis could become Judges (Gabranth).
A conquered territory loses its sovereignty to those who conquered them The Empire wanted the power over Dalmasca rather that it going to some local monarch, so of course Ashe would only be a puppet ruler. The offer was not meant to give back any major powers back to Ashe, it was just an ultimatum: "Either join us or be destroyed", it was only aimed at ending a conflict before more lives had to be wasted (resistence are rarely successful).

Pulling out of Dalmasca is a tactical blunder you're saying here, well the whole invasion of Dalmasca is in fact a tactical blunder so either way it's going to be a lose lose situation. It's a stupid investment to pull out you say, well again its not that good of an idea to be staying in Dalmasca either. I don't really know what they get out of Dalmasca, I suppose some taxes or whatever. But then they have to commit so much military strength to keep the peace in Dalmasca, at the best they probably come out even (although from Vaynes point of view maybe ahead because, I don't really think he cares about human life that much so the loss of some soldiers doesnt mean much to him.). If they wanted to they could have easily withdrawn, given Dalmasca her sovereignty back and negotiate for their fleets to be allowed somewhere near the western border of Dalmasca if they really needed the place as a staging area. The wording of all that stuff would have to have been pretty specific but it would keep their strategic position, stop the need to commit resources towards maintaining the peace in Dalmasca and potentially in the future gain an ally if it was done properly (and early enough).

I think you misunderstand who was succeeding and who was failing throughout most of Final Fantasy XII, it was Archadia. The Resistance’s first attempt to retake Dalmasca was a complete failure, their forces were defeated and they had to make rout through the sewers and their leader, Ashe, along with her allies, were captured. For the rest of the game, up until the last hour of the game, the resistance leaders are on the run while the resistance itself is trying to rebuild its forces.
Archadia, on the other hand has Dalmasca under its thumb, and aside from the Resistance’s early debacle, Dalmasca remains quiet. Even during the final battle the resistance is almost completely wiped out by the Bahamut. Seeing that the invasion was a success, the occupation was going smoothly (until Larsa decides to make peace), and that Dalmasca was a strategic staging point in the war in with Rozaria, the only blunder Archadia made was leaving the resistance around as long as it did.

I bet you're right, we wont ever agree on this point. But although Nabudis was an accident, like I said before they knew that nethicite was powerful and they were testing it out in a war scenario so they knew what kind of power as well, so just because they didn't know how bad it would turn out to be doesn't mean that they can just say "Whoops my bad, oh well whats done is done I wont worry about it". It still is their responsibility and Vayne does take some responsibility there too because he did know what Cid was doing at the time and he still allowed it to happen. Now the only reason the Archadians showed as much restraint as you give them credit for is because if they were doing any more that would just make the situation worse for them, with the resistence the more they crack down on them the more Dalmascans will join them. What Reddas did is his responsibility, he wasn't told to go kill a bunch of scientists he was just told to go find out information. The fact that he does kill scientists even though it is to find information is still just his problem and nobody elses, it sucks yes but it cant be put at the resistances feet. That is like someone from microsoft going and stealing a car and microsoft being blamed because its their employee, it just doesnt make sense.

Tiny nations like Dalmasca will always be at the mercy (and appetite) of big Empires like Archadia and Rozaria. An Empire can never stop growing, it must constantly consume smaller nations to sustain itself in order to avoid being consumed by other Empires. In war more weapons and methods to kill people will always be developed, and their will ultimately be great losses of life. But those who refuse to develop fall to those who do.
An organization is responsible for the behavior of its members, maybe not each and every grunt, but at least its major leaders. If the Resistance cannot control Reddas, then the are no better than the Empire in regard to Judge Bergen (he attacked mt Bur Omscienc).