I hate Tifa Remake version (and her fans, seriously)

I think this all comes down to personal preference, it's the only way I can look at this, truth be told, the exact same can be argued for any other character. It's just a preference on which characters you like and dislike.

What I prefer is a character that is human, and flawed as the rest of the cast. I don't want the game to try to make Aerith and Tifa equal love rivals. I think what makes FF7 great was the fact that the love triangle was never fully equal but two contrasting characters that although both affect cloud and his thought process, affected different areas.

I'm afraid that by splitting up FF7 into multiple parts, its going to pad out character development and give them a baseline personality.

Also, I don't know what planet you guys live on but I didn't get bratty from the OG... :wacky: Poor girl's just misunderstood.

Well bratty wasn't the words i use, but here is text that might give you context:

Tifa: Marlene! Aren't you going to say anything to Cloud? Welcome home, Cloud. Looks like everything went well. Did you fight with Barret?

Tifa: OHH!! I can make a drink just as good as anyone else. Everyone says, my drinks taste the best!

Tifa: So! You're really leaving !? You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend !?

Cloud: What......?

Tifa: So you DID forget.

Tifa: I'm going inside too! I wanna see!

Sephiroth: Only authorized people are allowed in. This place is full of Shinra's industrial secrets.

Tifa: But!

Sephiroth: Take care of the lady.

Tifa: Mm, man! Better take real good care of me then!

Tifa: ......... Cloud...? How bad was I when Sephiroth cut me?

Tifa: Hey wake up. Wake up, Cloud!

Cloud: Tifa... When Sephiroth and I went to Nibelheim, where were you?

Tifa: ...We saw each other, right?

Cloud: The other time.

Tifa: No...it was 5 years ago. I don't remember. But, something seems strange outside. Cloud, come quick.
Hmm... I disagree. I liked her voice. I first would've loved Jessie's voice for Tifa, until I actually heard more of Tifa's voice actress in game. I think it suits her personality. I don't think it sounds "old/older", perhaps it has a maturity level to it, but I feel like that compliments her character well.

I think suiting a personality isn't enough. I think it doesn't fit her physically. Tifa's voice is deep and very controlled. And yet, the expressions she gives don't fit her facial features.

Just hearing the Japanese voice actress gives her a more timid, but also younger tone. It really reflects the inexperience she has.
 
The term is cognitive dissonance. Unfortunately, it's not a good excuse for Tifa. Unless the game actively wants us to believe what we're witnessing is Cognitive dissonance.
So once again, i must educate you that learning specific skills that require extensive training does alter the personality. Now keep in mind, it doesn't mean that she has a new personality, but the personality is affected.


But this does matter to Tifa because learning martial arts "from a teacher" and be skilled does make it inconsistent to someone who also hates violence. and its those inconsistencies that just further paint Tifa as a likable character, but not a better character. its these things that in the original weren't there.

I am aware of the term cognitive dissonance, but this terminology does not exactly fit what I or Six was explaining, hence why we didn't use it. The example I gave of a person training and participating in a competitive sport who doesn't enjoy competing against people in general, is not an example of cognitive dissonance; it's an example of how a person may engage with and learn a skillset for reasons outside of the preconceived perameters and whose personality traits would dictate the level on which they engage with this skillset rather than the other way around as you suggest. Since Tifa learned to fight in order to claim some sort of autonomy (rather than to exact revenge or a personal vendetta) it could be fair to say that this motivation does not necessarily declare her as free from fear or an alteration to her moral compass. The game tells us that she dislikes violence but she doesn't allow this misgiving to stop her from protecting herself and others but there is clearly a limit to how far she engages with it, both physically and vicariously through Avalanche's actions. We can clearly see a difference between Tifa's motives to fight and that of Barrett who is a lot less restrained or cautious and more driven by vengence. Again, as mentioned in the example in my previous post, there's plenty of room to criticise her competency, skills or effectiveness as compared to the motives which drive Cloud and Barrett, but it seems a massive leap to take these different reasons and declare her as being fake. You are perfectly free to disagree with her more reserved nature and dislike it, but there's no contextual reasoning to say that this suggests any type of artifice on her part.

my point isn't that she tries to act effortlessly perfect. that's an oxymoron. try = effort. Effortlessly perfect = perfect without trying.

And that is in her mannerisms, her speech, etc.

If we are to talk about cognitive dissonance though, what is pretty contradictory in the stance you've put forward is this idea that Tifa can somehow be fake and purposefully act weak in order to steal someone's man but also at the same time be completely perfect and likeable without trying. If she was so perfect and actually likeable, how is it you dislike her then?

Your point was also that she is engineered to only serve as a love interest to Cloud, however, your basis for this claim is centered on flaws which, if true, would make her very unappealing (eg. the pretense of being a weak and helpless female) but then you say that her flaws are not actual, real flaws and are just engineered to make her perfect (understanding of course that the flaw of pretending to be weak and helpless just to appeal to a man is in the dishonesty and artifice rather than in any authentic need for help or actual weakness). How is pretending to be weak and manipulating people a 'fake flaw' that would make any character likeable?

As oppose to what? Tifa has two options, be the main character or not. And most FF characters dont even try to fight for that seat, they just naturally be supportive or not. So i dont know why you see this as a strength unique to Tifa.

Barrett calls plenty of the shots and makes decisions which affect others and he's not a main character, there's plenty of times the support characters in FFVII direct the trajectory of the game which is why the cast of the game are so interesting. Point being made here was that Tifa exhibits tact in deciding which hills to die on and which she should walk away from/accept, something that would take a lot of mental and emotional fortitude to accept.

So i only expressed my experience, because in the past i had to look for "Fakeness". the context is reality.

You're free to do so, but the context I was referring to here was the actual evidence supplied in the story. My point, which you've proved here, is that many of the arguments criticising Tifa (and Aerith) as being manipulative and fake are based a lot on projected biases and assumptions of how females act when there's a man in the room rather than derived from the evidence supplied within the context of the game itself. It's hard to discuss the validity of a character based on someone's assumptions and projected reality without there being supporting evidence of those criticisms within the actual narrative of the game.
 
I am aware of the term cognitive dissonance, but this terminology does not exactly fit what I or Six was explaining, hence why we didn't use it.
You're appealing to a lack of understanding of someone's motives not being consistent with their actions correct? As you and Six love to describe it as "consistent inconsistencies". In which there is no such thing as consistent inconsistencies in the real world. There are patterns that look like contradictions and can be explained. Even hypocrisy can be explained.

But in the context of fiction, we don't appeal to "consistent inconsistencies" because games have the freedom to be able to give us all the perspectives we need to understand the characters. we appeal to what's there, and what isn't there is perception.



The example I gave of a person training and participating in a competitive sport who doesn't enjoy competing against people in general, is not an example of cognitive dissonance; it's an example of how a person may engage with and learn a skillset for reasons outside of the preconceived perameters and whose personality traits would dictate the level on which they engage with this skillset rather than the other way around as you suggest.

The one and the only person who made the assumption of "preconceived parameters" is you. I've clarified multiple times that even though the personality is affected, I never implied what those parameters were. It's a push-and-pull situation. personality affects skills, skills affect personality. Once again, this is an objective fact.

And once again, when it comes to a "master" teaching a "student". That adds another layer to just learning skills. You now have verbally spoken principles of the master being implemented on top of the physical skills that train your brain in order to execute that trickles down. Does Tifa ignore Zangan's teachings and follow her own method? or is Zangan's style of fighting not involve any mental fortitude like most martial arts?

And I bring this up because, once again, it's not that there isn't a way to have this answered. the problem is that the game doesn't explain it. It ignores it. So how am I supposed to accept your perception when the game could care less?


Since Tifa learned to fight in order to claim some sort of autonomy (rather than to exact revenge or a personal vendetta) it could be fair to say that this motivation does not necessarily declare her as free from fear or an alteration to her moral compass. The game tells us that she dislikes violence but she doesn't allow this misgiving to stop her from protecting herself and others but there is clearly a limit to how far she engages with it, both physically and vicariously through Avalanche's actions.
The problem unfortunately is that the level of contact, no matter how small, is still violence. She is physically using her body to make contact.
And once again, this is all for the sake of theorizing. The game could've taken an opportunity to explore Tifa's newfound perspective, but the game just wants us to just accept it, and leave it as is.

You're willing to fill in the gaps. i"m just calling the gaps as I see them.


We can clearly see a difference between Tifa's motives to fight and that of Barrett who is a lot less restrained or cautious and more driven by vengence. Again, as mentioned in the example in my previous post, there's plenty of room to criticise her competency, skills or effectiveness as compared to the motives which drive Cloud and Barrett, but it seems a massive leap to take these different reasons and declare her as being fake. You are perfectly free to disagree with her more reserved nature and dislike it, but there's no contextual reasoning to say that this suggests any type of artifice on her part.
Actually, there isn't that much room to criticize the competency of her skills if you're asking me to judge based on the context of the game. The game wants us to believe she is more than competent and better than the average fighter.

If Tifa's reluctance for violence was introduced in the original, then I would believe it a genuine trait that just happened to be underdeveloped. Unfortunately, it was added to give Tifa a more morally just and appealing character (in theory) to the players and Cloud. The Tifa in the remake is indeed different than the Tifa in the original.

In the original version, Tifa alongside Avalanche was people willing to do morally questionable things for the sake of the Planet. It was only after leaving Midgard that they started to find new answers and their conscience refined. But during Midgard, Tifa was the biggest advocate for Cloud joining Avalanche. Tifa's brought up their childhood promise to convince him that he would be fulfilling it by joining Avalanche and stopping Shinra. It was simple, but enough. In the remake, Tifa's reason for bringing up the promise isn't as clear. There were moments that Tifa whispered to be saved, but there was no context to say it.



If we are to talk about cognitive dissonance though, what is pretty contradictory in the stance you've put forward is this idea that Tifa can somehow be fake and purposefully act weak in order to steal someone's man but also at the same time be completely perfect and likeable without trying. If she was so perfect and actually likeable, how is it you dislike her then?
That's not cognitive dissonance, you're just missing context.

Tifa
in the context of "if she was a real person" is fake, and would be purposefully weak, and she may have an interest in someone I knew and she would believe she was subtle. This isn't just a "me" thing. This is based 100% on Tifa's body language. the point being: Tifa doesn't translate to real-life well. she would even come across as the opposite. Statistically, males are easier to perceive positive body language, while women have a better time finding hostility. (again statistically).

When I'm saying Tifa is effortlessly perfect,
it's in the context of the game and I'm saying it with a bit of sarcasm. No one in the story is saying "hey, Tifa. why are you moving so awkwardly anime-esque?" or after the sector 7 plate falls, Barret didn't go "Are you faking that shaking fist?" No one questions her body language, is loved by all, depended by all, and even the ones who have a slight negative disposition like Jessie seem to come from a hint of jealousy. Any real disagreement between Avalanche and Tifa still made Tifa look like she was morally correct to over the eco-terrorists.

And to answer your question: I don't like Tifa because it's impossible for her to be her own character. She will forever be in Cloud's shadow. Both in FF7 remake and outside of FF7 like Advent Children. And probably even past that. There's never a moment that she has that is truly hers and hers alone.

This is why I advocate that the remake could've given her a lot more independence. Like, teach kids self-defense. Or has her own habits outside of being depended on like has a gambling habit. or enjoys dancing or listening to music alone. Something that tells me "Tifa is just being Tifa, this could've been here whether Cloud existed or not"



Your point was also that she is engineered to only serve as a love interest to Cloud, however, your basis for this claim is centered on flaws which, if true, would make her very unappealing (eg. the pretense of being a weak and helpless female) but then you say that her flaws are not actual, real flaws and are just engineered to make her perfect (understanding of course that the flaw of pretending to be weak and helpless just to appeal to a man is in the dishonesty and artifice rather than in any authentic need for help or actual weakness). How is pretending to be weak and manipulating people a 'fake flaw' that would make any character likeable?

Once again, you are missing context and are getting confused by it.

I do agree Tifa is engineered to only serve as a love interest to Cloud and to serve as the catalyst to reveal the plot twist of his true past. The new traits added to Tifa in the remake, are there to appeal to Cloud's connection to her. These flaws are engineered for the sake of telling Cloud's story, not for Tifa to carve her own path. In my eyes, she is unappealing in that case

As for the second half, some otaku men find helplessness, and submission attractive. Especially in the anime/JRPG community. And based on the context of the game, there's really not much of these being presented as flaws. I doubt Cloud's going to say "save yourself! Be an independent woman! stop relying on me!" and for the narrative of the game to say "you're right Cloud. I did rely on the idea that you were a hero too much. I need to start being codependent".

And I'm not saying Tifa is going to steal a man. I'm saying that her body language is not to be trusted if she was a real person.

Barrett calls plenty of the shots and makes decisions which affect others and he's not a main character, there's plenty of times the support characters in FFVII direct the trajectory of the game which is why the cast of the game are so interesting. Point being made here was that Tifa exhibits tact in deciding which hills to die on and which she should walk away from/accept, something that would take a lot of mental and emotional fortitude to accept.
This is a purely personal perception. her disposition and place in the team are no different from Vincent, Cait Sith, or Cids. for me to believe it takes Tifa a lot of mental and emotional fortitude to accept her role, I need to see a struggle, to begin with, in the context of the game. I need to see where she actively made a decision to not lead but has a desire to lead.

You're free to do so, but the context I was referring to here was the actual evidence supplied in the story. My point, which you've proved here, is that many of the arguments criticising Tifa (and Aerith) as being manipulative and fake are based a lot on projected biases and assumptions of how females act when there's a man in the room rather than derived from the evidence supplied within the context of the game itself. It's hard to discuss the validity of a character based on someone's assumptions and projected reality without there being supporting evidence of those criticisms within the actual narrative of the game.
I'm going to clarify one last time from you. The point was based on my personal past on how I learned to read body language. And it's not just based on the idea that she would steal a man. It's based on her giving the body language of ulterior motives and fakeness whether she was or not. I'd appreciate this is the last time you reference that experience with belittlement.

So the context has always been as if the characters were in real life. The example I gave even demands you try to see it from that perspective. I find it incredibly odd that you're now appealing to the context of the game. Especially because you and Six have also appealed to the context of reality to defend Tifa. Otherwise, you wouldn't have felt so compelled to believe Six made an amazing point on "consistent inconsistencies". you even appealed to have no real way of understanding her in the same vein as a real person.
 
First of all, let's mind our tones here. Some things are coming across as condescending and we're all just contributing to the topic at hand.



Tifa: Marlene! Aren't you going to say anything to Cloud? Welcome home, Cloud. Looks like everything went well. Did you fight with Barret?

Tifa: OHH!! I can make a drink just as good as anyone else. Everyone says, my drinks taste the best!

Tifa: So! You're really leaving !? You're just going to walk right out ignoring your childhood friend !?

Cloud: What......?

Tifa: So you DID forget.

Tifa: I'm going inside too! I wanna see!

Sephiroth: Only authorized people are allowed in. This place is full of Shinra's industrial secrets.

Tifa: But!

Sephiroth: Take care of the lady.

Tifa: Mm, man! Better take real good care of me then!

Tifa: ......... Cloud...? How bad was I when Sephiroth cut me?

Tifa: Hey wake up. Wake up, Cloud!

Cloud: Tifa... When Sephiroth and I went to Nibelheim, where were you?

Tifa: ...We saw each other, right?

Cloud: The other time.

Tifa: No...it was 5 years ago. I don't remember. But, something seems strange outside. Cloud, come quick.

You're... joking, right?

Someone showing emotion that a promise they held onto might've been forgotten, disappointment instead of bratty.

The other part you quoted she was literally a teenager.

Asking Cloud to wake up.... seriously? :LOL: Her wanting to change the topic and asking him to come outside is avoidance, not bratty. Also, perfect example of your perfect Tifa not being perfect, otherwise she'd confronted the issue head on.


I'm afraid that by splitting up FF7 into multiple parts, its going to pad out character development and give them a baseline personality.

This, I can understand.

As you and Six love to describe it as "consistent inconsistencies". In which there is no such thing as consistent inconsistencies in the real world. There are patterns that look like contradictions and can be explained. Even hypocrisy can be explained.

All Tifa's inconsistencies can be explained, even though I really don't think there are that many. Don't misunderstand that I think her character = consistent inconsistencies. I just think there's no such thing as a perfect character, not even Tifa, otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here having a discussion about it. It wouldn't bother you if it was perfect and made sense.

Just because I think Tifa is a great character doesn't mean I'm blind to see anything but a great character. Clearly you and I disagree, but that's absolutely no reason to cling onto things like "you see yourself in her therefore". Maybe accept that what you don't like, others do like. Maybe what you see doesn't exist, maybe what someone else sees is completely irrelevant to you?

I understand the original topic of this thread was just you explaining your dislike for the character, and you didn't ask anyone to challenge it, but the way you're challenging other people or insinuating they don't understand or the only reason they like something is because they relate is a bit silly to me.

Tifa in the context of "if she was a real person" is fake, and would be purposefully weak, and she may have an interest in someone I knew and she would believe she was subtle. This isn't just a "me" thing. This is based 100% on Tifa's body language. the point being: Tifa doesn't translate to real-life well. she would even come across as the opposite. Statistically, males are easier to perceive positive body language, while women have a better time finding hostility. (again statistically).

This is a you (and everyone else who SHARES your opinion and dislike of Tifa) thing. All the characters would be fake in that sense that they literally do not exist. If Tifa and the group were real people, they'd be as real as you and I with their flaws and all present. Just because you don't think it's subtle doesn't mean others might not. Cloud's clearly oblivious to both of them having an interest. Just because someone (real life or a video game) doesn't fit the statistics doesn't mean they're fake.

When I'm saying Tifa is effortlessly perfect, it's in the context of the game and I'm saying it with a bit of sarcasm. No one in the story is saying "hey, Tifa. why are you moving so awkwardly anime-esque?" or after the sector 7 plate falls, Barret didn't go "Are you faking that shaking fist?" No one questions her body language, is loved by all, depended by all, and even the ones who have a slight negative disposition like Jessie seem to come from a hint of jealousy. Any real disagreement between Avalanche and Tifa still made Tifa look like she was morally correct to over the eco-terrorists.

Yet here we are. There's plenty of people that don't like Tifa. There's plenty of people that she doesn't appeal to. It's complete personal preference what characters people like. Some hate her because they see her as a rival for Cloud and Aerith, some hate her because she has a bigger bust, some hate her because she "looks slutty" some hate her because of the reasons you explained. Then some love her because they understand her as a character, love the design, love Cloud and Tifa, etc.

If you're referring to in game "loved by all", you see that for Aerith as well, it's not Tifa exclusive.

What's wrong with Tifa being morally correct (subjective, btw)? Seems like the real gripe here is you dislike a character and don't like that the devs made her to make choices you claim aren't consistent with her character (in your opinion).

I'm not even going to argue if Tifa would be "fake" in real life though, because I personally find that absurd.

I think if there's some deep seated hatred towards Tifa, by all means, but to me this is getting a little silly, and truth be told I don't have much to add, because as I said previously, I'm not here to convince you. I respect that you dislike her, your reasoning however doesn't make that much sense at all and it doesn't resonate with me.

That isn't because of some underlying psychological reason, we just happen to have different tastes.
 
You're appealing to a lack of understanding of someone's motives not being consistent with their actions correct? As you and Six love to describe it as "consistent inconsistencies". In which there is no such thing as consistent inconsistencies in the real world. There are patterns that look like contradictions and can be explained. Even hypocrisy can be explained.

But in the context of fiction, we don't appeal to "consistent inconsistencies" because games have the freedom to be able to give us all the perspectives we need to understand the characters. we appeal to what's there, and what isn't there is perception.

For the most part I don't think her motives are inconsistent with her actions. I personally understand how Tifa can act and think the way she does and how she's portrayed in the Remake given the context of her past. What I am saying is that her personal values affect how she manifests her skills and how she navigates her inner conflicts. Although she has been through substantial hardship, I can understand how she is still able to be outward focused and helpful to the people around her. For me, I read her decision to take up martial arts and her helpfulness towards others as all stemming from her sense of isolation and loneliness. Quite a number of boys (including Cloud) have let her down in the past, so she looks for a sense of autonomy through learning to fight herself - skills she later uses to protect others as she herself wanted to be protected when she was a child. Having lost her mother at an early age, I think she craves a sense of safety and fears being left behind. I interpret those fears and anxiety as playing an important role in her relationship with Cloud and other characters too like Marle and little Marlene. These are some of the reasons I said that it is more important for me to understand why she fights, rather than looking at the fact that she fights - especially when trying to read her as a character and figuring out her motives.

Where I see the idea of 'consistent inconsistencies' coming into play - and the reason I liked Six's interpretation, is that it speaks to the fact that although Tifa is presented as a martial arts fighter, this skill set does not overcome Tifa's personal traumas, emotional anxieties or help her feel more connected to the people around her. Although this may be inconsistent with other tropes of martial artists within the Final Fantasy series, what we are being presented with here is the untenable situation Tifa finds herself in - that no matter her own strength and will to fight, it will never make her feel safe in a place like Midgar. Tifa also uses her fighting abilities to take care of her problems by herself, she doesn't like letting other people get involved with her issues. However, the audience can see that in a place like Midgar, getting into a difficult situation alone is a recipe for disaster.

As a side note, if I also saw her as primarily waifu material I think she would make less sense to me personally as it wouldn't add up to her more reserved, shy and independent nature - she just doesn't read to me as being added to the game purely to exist as Cloud's love interest. If she was, I don't think the wider community would hold the fascination of the Cloud, Tifa, Aerith love triangle because Tifa would be written in a way as to be the only viable option for Cloud, and Aerith would very clearly be an afterthought (like in FFVIII, how Quistis is clearly not even on the radar for Squall since Rinoa is specifically engineered as his love interest - there's clearly no room for interpretation on that front, no matter how many advances or flirty comments Quistis makes).

For me, Tifa is a standalone person who Cloud is also interested in, with values he seeks to impress and connect with - as he clearly does with Aerith too, just in a very different way. However, both Aerith and Tifa have their own place within the tapestry of the story and are people to be interested in not just simple love interests. Each give the viewer an insight into world of Final Fantasy VII. For Tifa, I think she shows us how precarious that world is, and how futile it feels living under such a regime. To me, Tifa is one of those characters who contextualises and embodies the foreboding vibe and theme of Anxious Heart.

The one and the only person who made the assumption of "preconceived parameters" is you. I've clarified multiple times that even though the personality is affected, I never implied what those parameters were. It's a push-and-pull situation. personality affects skills, skills affect personality. Once again, this is an objective fact.

And once again, when it comes to a "master" teaching a "student". That adds another layer to just learning skills. You now have verbally spoken principles of the master being implemented on top of the physical skills that train your brain in order to execute that trickles down. Does Tifa ignore Zangan's teachings and follow her own method? or is Zangan's style of fighting not involve any mental fortitude like most martial arts?

And I bring this up because, once again, it's not that there isn't a way to have this answered. the problem is that the game doesn't explain it. It ignores it. So how am I supposed to accept your perception when the game could care less?

I have mostly covered this in the paragraphs above. However, it is also worth noting that there are countless characters throughout the Final Fantasy series who do not in any ways resemble their training, martial arts or otherwise. Just sticking to the FFVII compilation neither Zack or Cloud (or even Genesis or Angeal for that matter) are half as disciplined, particularly emotionally, as they should be after receiving military training. Probably the realism is sacrificed in favour of characterisation, narrative complexity and thematic dramatisation - I think there's a certain suspension of disbelief that's necessary to factor in.

It's definitely funny how the Final Fantasy franchise portrays fighting prowess and combat training in general - I mean, the realism of it all is somewhere between there being Narnia in my wardrobe and Oz being somewhere over the rainbow. The most realistic they have ever managed to get is sticking a flute in Deuce's hand a calling it a day :lew:

The problem unfortunately is that the level of contact, no matter how small, is still violence. She is physically using her body to make contact.
And once again, this is all for the sake of theorizing. The game could've taken an opportunity to explore Tifa's newfound perspective, but the game just wants us to just accept it, and leave it as is.

You're willing to fill in the gaps. i"m just calling the gaps as I see them.

Actually, there isn't that much room to criticize the competency of her skills if you're asking me to judge based on the context of the game. The game wants us to believe she is more than competent and better than the average fighter.

If Tifa's reluctance for violence was introduced in the original, then I would believe it a genuine trait that just happened to be underdeveloped. Unfortunately, it was added to give Tifa a more morally just and appealing character (in theory) to the players and Cloud. The Tifa in the remake is indeed different than the Tifa in the original.

In the original version, Tifa alongside Avalanche was people willing to do morally questionable things for the sake of the Planet. It was only after leaving Midgard that they started to find new answers and their conscience refined. But during Midgard, Tifa was the biggest advocate for Cloud joining Avalanche. Tifa's brought up their childhood promise to convince him that he would be fulfilling it by joining Avalanche and stopping Shinra. It was simple, but enough. In the remake, Tifa's reason for bringing up the promise isn't as clear. There were moments that Tifa whispered to be saved, but there was no context to say it.

The Remake version of Tifa is definitely a different interpretation from the original, I think some of the most iconic characters are, which I can understand your points for finding that not as good a fit for you personally. It's completely fair if you don't think the aspects which were extrapolated on were as valuable as others which you found more relatable or endearing in the original. Arguably her inner feelings of revenge against Shinra are expressed far more strongly in the original whereas in the Remake, her grief and loss have her more emotionally repressed so her misgivings of putting innocent people at risk depict her more as trapped and bound by her decision to join Avalanche. In short, she's far more emotionally conflicted in the Remake and it's understandable if this representation of her showing lower self-esteem contrasts too much with what you enjoyed about her character last time.

In saying that, my points during my discussion with you are not aimed to deny those obvious differences in characterisation, not liking those changes is perfectly valid, I'm more addressing the idea that these differences somehow lead her character into being too perfect and/or fake.

That's not cognitive dissonance, you're just missing context.

Tifa
in the context of "if she was a real person" is fake, and would be purposefully weak, and she may have an interest in someone I knew and she would believe she was subtle. This isn't just a "me" thing. This is based 100% on Tifa's body language. the point being: Tifa doesn't translate to real-life well. she would even come across as the opposite. Statistically, males are easier to perceive positive body language, while women have a better time finding hostility. (again statistically).

When I'm saying Tifa is effortlessly perfect,
it's in the context of the game and I'm saying it with a bit of sarcasm. No one in the story is saying "hey, Tifa. why are you moving so awkwardly anime-esque?" or after the sector 7 plate falls, Barret didn't go "Are you faking that shaking fist?" No one questions her body language, is loved by all, depended by all, and even the ones who have a slight negative disposition like Jessie seem to come from a hint of jealousy. Any real disagreement between Avalanche and Tifa still made Tifa look like she was morally correct to over the eco-terrorists.

I don't think there is a definitive way to judge the morality behind Avalanche's actions or Tifa's misgivings. Some people believe that a restrained response to evil isn't moral while others say that there is never an excuse to resort to violence. The creators are simply giving us two different outlooks through the characters of Barret and Tifa. Barret believes the cause of saving the Planet justifies any means necessary and that sacrifice is inevitable, whereas Tifa is more restrained with what actions should be sanctioned so as to ensure other people don't get involved. Personally I find both outlooks valid since they hit on a different, equally valuable points: Barret's speaks to the idea of the greater good and the need to actually be effective, whereas Tifa's perspective highlights the need for personal accountability and accepting the responsibility of any sacrifice onto yourself. Both perspectives are also deeply rooted in the personalities of each character and are grounded in their past experiences.

This is where we can speculate for ourselves how much of an effective fighter Tifa really is. Does having a line you won't cross help or hinder her purpose? Again back to the example of a non-competitive person playing a competitive sport, are they truly hungry enough for the win?

The one thing I don't personally see in Tifa having misgivings regarding Avalanche, is how they're engineered specifically to set her up as a waifu for Cloud. Through this lens, anything any of the characters did could be interpreted as simply laying the ground for Cloud's heroship, even the corruption of Shinra would arguably exist simply to serve his character arc.

And to answer your question: I don't like Tifa because it's impossible for her to be her own character. She will forever be in Cloud's shadow. Both in FF7 remake and outside of FF7 like Advent Children. And probably even past that. There's never a moment that she has that is truly hers and hers alone.

This is why I advocate that the remake could've given her a lot more independence. Like, teach kids self-defense. Or has her own habits outside of being depended on like has a gambling habit. or enjoys dancing or listening to music alone. Something that tells me "Tifa is just being Tifa, this could've been here whether Cloud existed or not"

I would absolutely love to see more of the characters get developed to a greater extent, like a more comprehensive version of what FFXV did with their DLC character chapters. I don't think we have seen any Final Fantasy character created to this level of depth in the entire franchise so that would be remarkable.

If we are talking about iconic moments where Tifa exists in her own right within the compilation in general, her fight against Loz in Advent Children is quite the stand out moment and is pretty consistent to her protective, caring nature. Considering that none of the other supporting protagonists (Barret, Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, Cait Sith, Red XIII) get their own individual fighting scene, I think it says something. There are also occasions in the Remake where she takes more of a lead for example during Rough Waters. Don't worry, I'm not going to name out each instance where Tifa gets more of a platform, all I'm pointing out is that they are there to an extent; I'm happy with them as a good enough representation but I assume they aren't as fulfilling or meaningful for you, which is fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

Once again, you are missing context and are getting confused by it.

I do agree Tifa is engineered to only serve as a love interest to Cloud and to serve as the catalyst to reveal the plot twist of his true past. The new traits added to Tifa in the remake, are there to appeal to Cloud's connection to her. These flaws are engineered for the sake of telling Cloud's story, not for Tifa to carve her own path. In my eyes, she is unappealing in that case

As for the second half, some otaku men find helplessness, and submission attractive. Especially in the anime/JRPG community. And based on the context of the game, there's really not much of these being presented as flaws. I doubt Cloud's going to say "save yourself! Be an independent woman! stop relying on me!" and for the narrative of the game to say "you're right Cloud. I did rely on the idea that you were a hero too much. I need to start being codependent".

And I'm not saying Tifa is going to steal a man. I'm saying that her body language is not to be trusted if she was a real person.

I've covered why I personally disagree with the idea that Tifa is engineered only to serve as Cloud's love interest in previous paragraphs. It's worth adding though, that it's not any actual weakness on Tifa's part that you pointed out as making her fake, it was her pretence at being helpless and weak which you said made her seem manipulative, untrustworthy and fake. So my question was, how can a character who is being manipulative and fake be simultaneously effortlessly perfect? I don't think any man, otaku or otherwise is going to find a the flaw of being manipulative as being particularly attractive.

I'm going to clarify one last time from you. The point was based on my personal past on how I learned to read body language. And it's not just based on the idea that she would steal a man. It's based on her giving the body language of ulterior motives and fakeness whether she was or not. I'd appreciate this is the last time you reference that experience with belittlement.

So the context has always been as if the characters were in real life. The example I gave even demands you try to see it from that perspective. I find it incredibly odd that you're now appealing to the context of the game. Especially because you and Six have also appealed to the context of reality to defend Tifa. Otherwise, you wouldn't have felt so compelled to believe Six made an amazing point on "consistent inconsistencies". you even appealed to have no real way of understanding her in the same vein as a real person.

To clarify, I wasn't belittling your lived experience, when I was initially making my point about how Tifa and Aerith are constantly perceived in competition with each other, I was quoting from and replying to Six's post and was speaking in generalities. What I was saying in response to you was to first reiterate that initial point and then further extrapolate on it - essentially that in order for your personal observations of Tifa (which are based on your reality) to communicate across, they would need to also be based on the contextual evidence within the story so that I can understand what you are referencing and speaking to. You have spoken about how she moves on screen but I personally don't see what you are seeing for two reasons:

1) I get the impression that the gifs you have sent are simply showing how the characters are animated in the game, and not something inherent to Tifa. Have you seen how slowly some characters move in other Final Fantasy games, FFXIV is a nightmare of slow nodding and even slower walking - I'm not going to interpret this as The Scions of the Seventh Dawn being slothful, just that SE needs to cut down on the dramatics.

2) I don't personally think that CG has gotten to the place where body language can be accurately gauged, look at the nightmare that was the 'live action' Lion King - absolutely gross, and I'm sure the creators didn't intend that. I don't feel in a position to interpret the creators' intentions through graphics alone, I would also have to consider the dialogue.

All that being a thing, in a nutshell what I was saying was that in order for the discussion to stay on track and be clear to me exactly what you are critiquing, it would really help if there were some specific examples of things Tifa says and does in the game that you found contradictory. So far there was the example of her being afraid to jump off a moving train but this doesn't really cover all the points you're making. I hope that clears that point up!
 
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i luvv her look in ff7 remake. i find she looks much better now. to her character well.. i havnt played ff7r yet, but seen clipps on yt. japanese voices had been always the best. We have seen this in Advent Children.
i must admit, i havnt read closely to this thread, but agree to it that its a matter of taste, whether one likes or hates a character.
 
First of all, let's mind our tones here. Some things are coming across as condescending and we're all just contributing to the topic at hand.
I can only hope you practice what you preach.

Someone showing emotion that a promise they held onto might've been forgotten, disappointment instead of bratty.

The other part you quoted she was literally a teenager.

Asking Cloud to wake up.... seriously? :LOL: Her wanting to change the topic and asking him to come outside is avoidance, not bratty. Also, perfect example of your perfect Tifa not being perfect, otherwise she'd confronted the issue head on.

I think "bratty" depends on the person. You might be talking to someone who in their time played with Bratz dolls and resonated with the name. But I concede that "Bratty" can be inaccurate. For a more accurate word, I'll say Tifa definitely had more "spunk" in the original. And again, how she expressed herself based on text showed a lot different than how she expressed herself in the game. The contrast is similar to that of Kairi from Kingdom Hearts 1 and Kingdom Hearts 2. Can barely say they're the same character.

And although Tifa was a teenager in some scenes, she wasn't that older than she was before. But since Tifa hid in the background in a lot of scenes, and the frequent flashbacks to the past were more recognizable at times, I don't think it's wrong to consider that part of the present to some extent. It applies to Aerith too.


This, I can understand.

if you can understand this, you can understand how it can be perceived how they fundamentally change how Tifa's core personality. Which in turn, affects her character. In the original, although is a love interest, her relevancy in the story varied from point to point. I'll say, she became more relevant after Aerith's death. And that was intentional to avoid any possible moments of her bringing up the fact that Cloud remembers his past wrong. By adding more Tifa screentime, and having the later material, in my opinion, they forgot what made Tifa great.


All Tifa's inconsistencies can be explained, even though I really don't think there are that many. Don't misunderstand that I think her character = consistent inconsistencies. I just think there's no such thing as a perfect character, not even Tifa, otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here having a discussion about it. It wouldn't bother you if it was perfect and made sense.
But you openly used it to relate to reality, not to say she has flaws in her design. That is why I had to clarify and address that nothing about Humans, is inconsistent. Just unexplained patterns that we're limited to our perception and our own brain. As I said, storytelling has no excuse for any inconsistencies.

Just because I think Tifa is a great character doesn't mean I'm blind to see anything but a great character. Clearly you and I disagree, but that's absolutely no reason to cling onto things like "you see yourself in her therefore". Maybe accept that what you don't like, others do like. Maybe what you see doesn't exist, maybe what someone else sees is completely irrelevant to you?
The reason why I said what I said was that you've openly and multiple times address Tifa in ways that resonate with you at a personal level. Things like submissiveness. Not speaking up at specific times. Not want to make a scene. Brown hair. Brown eyes. The reason why I don't believe you is that you haven't pointed out a real flaw with Tifa. Something that humanizes her base personality we see in the remake.


I understand the original topic of this thread was just you explaining your dislike for the character, and you didn't ask anyone to challenge it, but the way you're challenging other people or insinuating they don't understand or the only reason they like something is because they relate is a bit silly to me.
Six, everything I said was based on what was initially shared, and the pattern of backpedaling. If you want to re-clarify, now's the time. But if you want to stay true to what you said before and what you are saying now, there are discrepancies.

This is a you (and everyone else who SHARES your opinion and dislike of Tifa) thing.
When I said this wasn't a "Me" thing. I'm saying that I'm not the only person who looks for body language to interpret someone. Now, you may not look for that when you are going on in your day-to-day life, and you may not want to do so with Tifa.

All the characters would be fake in that sense that they literally do not exist. If Tifa and the group were real people, they'd be as real as you and I with their flaws and all present.
You're basically saying "If Tifa was a real person, she would be altered to what's consistent in real life". But the analogy demands you look at their behaviors as they are and put them in the real world. No alterations. We're talking about Body language here.

Generally, the body language of the FF7 cast is consistent with reality based on how the game perceives them. All except Tifa. It's important to note that Tifa's body language doesn't translate well in real life. To the point that it hurts her character significantly. When sector 7 faceplate fell, the one who felt the most emotion was Barret. Tifa for the sake of appealing to the composed and elegant side of her (the sarcastic effortlessly perfect) couldn't show a single bit of Emotion despite having more connections to Sector 7 than Barret. Sure, she may have shaken her fist in a way of compressing it but her face didn't look like she repressed any emotion. It was a base form of sadness that could've applied to any situation.

The reason why I make such a big point about her body language is that it is consistent with the reason to make her more appealing specifically to Otaku/Geek culture. Because when you see these traits actually in play, in reality, it does the OPPOSITE. It paints someone who is purposefully trying to be poise and elegant.

Now just so we be fair, all the other characters suffer from anime-personality syndrome to a certain extent. But they are still consistent enough with reality.

  • Cloud doesn't get away by being cold and aloof. People in the game call him out, and in real life that would happen too. Barret hates his attitude.
  • Barret being a loudmouth is also an issue in the game. And it's not just Cloud that calls him out. in the original, Tifa shut him up at times too.
  • Jessie is also bashed on by Cloud, Biggs, and Wedge for talking too much and being a flirt.
  • Wedge is made fun of for his appetite at times when it shows. He's nervous and over-the-top attitude makes it harder to take seriously on the mission.
  • Aerith is playful and teases a lot. Despite being old enough to be considered a young adult, adults treat her like a teen, and kids feel at ease with her and as part of their tribe.
The only one I might consider slightly unrealistic is how serious people take Yuffie in the remake's side story. But in the original, she was a bit of an optional character that could be ignored. Getting Yuffie to join is consistent with how some pre-teens are susceptible to reverse psychology.

Just because you don't think it's subtle doesn't mean others might not. Cloud's clearly oblivious to both of them having an interest. Just because someone (real life or a video game) doesn't fit the statistics doesn't mean they're fake.
The statistic is that men have a harder time reading negative/hostile body language than women in society. The point I'm making is that Men and Women are programmed differently. In real life, the moves Tifa will make will be obvious, may not. But a woman has a higher chance of knowing when another woman is flirting with someone. I don't regret sharing my personal experience, but that's all it is. An experience. The catalyst is still me at an early age learning to read body language.

Yet here we are. There's plenty of people that don't like Tifa. There's plenty of people that she doesn't appeal to. It's complete personal preference what characters people like. Some hate her because they see her as a rival for Cloud and Aerith, some hate her because she has a bigger bust, some hate her because she "looks slutty" some hate her because of the reasons you explained. Then some love her because they understand her as a character, love the design, love Cloud and Tifa, etc.
I already expressed that this is in the context of the game.

But I do find it interesting that you compartmentalize Tifa haters to a specific subgroup, and it shows in this comment. You believe that Tifa fans "Understand her character".

I see it differently. I hate her because I understand her the most...I understand her true purpose in the game. I believe Tifa fans, tend to fall into two main categories. 1) either be openly honest that all they like about Tifa is her physical appearance and that's all. 2) they read into Tifa far greater than the others. Filling in story-gaps about her and freely interpreting her how they feel fit. Especially when trying to use the original as the topic, because things like "she is so brave and strong for being hidden and not demand more agency". Things that are your choice to perceive her that way, but never openly detailed in the game.

It's definitely why Tifa fans who fall in the second category, also tend to dislike Aerith. Aerith, is openly expressive, has her own mind, and isn't afraid to state it. Some people have yet to discover how to claim their space, so when someone openly does it, they can see it as toxic. But it's actually very healthy to state your desires, your boundaries, and what principles you follow and what you don't follow. Aerith does it in spades. And never to harm anyone else. She doesn't accept blame that isn't earned either.


If you're referring to in game "loved by all", you see that for Aerith as well, it's not Tifa exclusive.

Aerith has story-driven reasons why she falls into the "loved by all" archetype. Aerith was designed to be sacrificed to move the story forward, and Square wants us to know that Aerith's death has an impact, regardless if we personally like Aerith or not. It would defeat her purpose in the story if she was designed to be disliked by the people around her. Even if she wasn't hated, just being a wallflower would be a disservice to her role.

But I won't deny that Aerith to an extent was also designed to resonate with the player. She is openly expressive and has her own desires just as much as the rest of the crew. From a narrative standpoint that makes sense. You want her to not just be a plot device.

From a narrative standpoint, everything these characters do is no accident. There is a purpose as to why characters are designed the way they are. There is no reason for Tifa however to be loved by all in the context of moving the story forward. So the purpose must be outside of the story. And I came to the conclusion that it's to further mirror Aerith's role in the love-triangle meta that the FF7 community developed.

In the original, Tifa was well-rounded in the sense that nothing, in particular, stood out. Yes, she was calm and collected, but other times had her personal doubts and also panicked like the rest of the crew. She put Barret in check when she interrupted Cloud and appealed to his voice. And that I believe was made intentional. Because Tifa was supposed to be a character that you don't pay any mind to. She was supposed to not really draw a lot of attention to the story. If Tifa in the original demanded more to express her personality, it would also leave room to tell the plot twist early.



What's wrong with Tifa being morally correct (subjective, btw)? Seems like the real gripe here is you dislike a character and don't like that the devs made her to make choices you claim aren't consistent with her character (in your opinion).
My concern is that there's never an opportunity for Tifa to be more human. It feels like once again, the major appeal is only to make Tifa more likable for appeal's sake. With the perspective of the original in play, and what little we had info on, we really didn't have much to go on, but she seemed really aligned with Avalanche. She wasn't the black sheep. But in the remake, to further elevate Tifa, now there are different morals from Avalanche. And again, it doesn't help that we don't see the disagreement to further understand Tifa, just enough to leave an impression.

So yes, I do dislike a character, and I don't like the devs who made her make choices that I believe aren't consistent with her character (but are consistent to make her appealing to those who idolize her). I believe that when they were making the original, they didn't know how popular she would be, so her true design is sort of hidden in there. But once she became a popular character, the devs forgot what made her special and made her less realistic.



I'm not even going to argue if Tifa would be "fake" in real life though, because I personally find that absurd.
Good. Because that's not the point of the analogy. But you tend to lean on "offended" when it does come up. You can barely handle the topic. And it's all evidence that you do personally sympathize with Tifa significantly (not empathize).


I think if there's some deep seated hatred towards Tifa, by all means, but to me this is getting a little silly, and truth be told I don't have much to add, because as I said previously, I'm not here to convince you. I respect that you dislike her, your reasoning however doesn't make that much sense at all and it doesn't resonate with me.

That isn't because of some underlying psychological reason, we just happen to have different tastes.
If this was about tastes, we would agree that the Tifa you see is the same Tifa i see. And leave it at that. The reason why this discussion has gone on, is because of the perception of Tifa. And you may also want to subconsciously defend your ability to read a character too.

For the most part I don't think her motives are inconsistent with her actions. I personally understand how Tifa can act and think the way she does and how she's portrayed in the Remake given the context of her past. What I am saying is that her personal values affect how she manifests her skills and how she navigates her inner conflicts. Although she has been through substantial hardship, I can understand how she is still able to be outward focused and helpful to the people around her. For me, I read her decision to take up martial arts and her helpfulness towards others as all stemming from her sense of isolation and loneliness. Quite a number of boys (including Cloud) have let her down in the past, so she looks for a sense of autonomy through learning to fight herself - skills she later uses to protect others as she herself wanted to be protected when she was a child. Having lost her mother at an early age, I think she craves a sense of safety and fears being left behind. I interpret those fears and anxiety as playing an important role in her relationship with Cloud and other characters too like Marle and little Marlene. These are some of the reasons I said that it is more important for me to understand why she fights, rather than looking at the fact that she fights - especially when trying to read her as a character and figuring out her motives.

So once again, this is a matter of how comfortable you're willing to fill in the gaps. You decided to fill the gaps based on your personal interpretation. And that leads to seeing a completely different character. Out of all the characters in FF7, Tifa has a lot more gaps to fill in.

For me, I'm not asking for everything to be spoken out loud. But they need to have some things explained to a certain extent. FF7 treats Tifa in such a way that they just don't even ask a single question.



Where I see the idea of 'consistent inconsistencies' coming into play - and the reason I liked Six's interpretation, is that it speaks to the fact that although Tifa is presented as a martial arts fighter, this skill set does not overcome Tifa's personal traumas, emotional anxieties or help her feel more connected to the people around her. Although this may be inconsistent with other tropes of martial artists within the Final Fantasy series, what we are being presented with here is the untenable situation Tifa finds herself in - that no matter her own strength and will to fight, it will never make her feel safe in a place like Midgar. Tifa also uses her fighting abilities to take care of her problems by herself, she doesn't like letting other people get involved with her issues. However, the audience can see that in a place like Midgar, getting into a difficult situation alone is a recipe for disaster.
Unfortunately, as I keep saying. It actually needs to be presented in the game. Not interpreted. The game should tie up loose ends, not leave them.

The problem is also that she is considered a competent fighter, and yet can't stomach the violence. And like I said, could be explained. but the lack of explanation in-game is my grief. Because the game doesn't even want us to question it.


As a side note, if I also saw her as primarily waifu material I think she would make less sense to me personally as it wouldn't add up to her more reserved, shy and independent nature - she just doesn't read to me as being added to the game purely to exist as Cloud's love interest. If she was, I don't think the wider community would hold the fascination of the Cloud, Tifa, Aerith love triangle because Tifa would be written in a way as to be the only viable option for Cloud, and Aerith would very clearly be an afterthought (like in FFVIII, how Quistis is clearly not even on the radar for Squall since Rinoa is specifically engineered as his love interest - there's clearly no room for interpretation on that front, no matter how many advances or flirty comments Quistis makes).
Tifa's main role in FF7 (other than being a love interest) is to harbor a secret until the opportune time to reveal it. Specifically with Cloud, because the game wants us to perceive Cloud as a hardcore hero, and get comfortable with that perception so when it breaks, we feel a big reveal. it's only after Aerith's death, that her role as a potential love interest is given more room.

Aerith's role is to be sacrificed for the sake of the main story. Her being likable or appealing has little to do with Cloud as a love interest but everything to do to have an impact on the cast. Whether Cloud was supposed to have romantic feelings or just a platonic special person, Aerith in the love triangle spectrum is indeed an afterthought, and it further cemented that in the end, she's with Zack within the Lifestream.

It's because of those two different factors, that make the love triangle compelling. Because Square designed Tifa to be the only viable option but they just didn't account for Aerith's main role to add to the conversation as effectively as it did. I like Aerith/Cloud a lot more than Tifa/Cloud personally. But that's just because Aerith challenges Cloud as a character more.



For me, Tifa is a standalone person who Cloud is also interested in, with values he seeks to impress and connect with - as he clearly does with Aerith too, just in a very different way. However, both Aerith and Tifa have their own place within the tapestry of the story and are people to be interested in not just simple love interests. Each give the viewer an insight into world of Final Fantasy VII. For Tifa, I think she shows us how precarious that world is, and how futile it feels living under such a regime. To me, Tifa is one of those characters who contextualises and embodies the foreboding vibe and theme of Anxious Heart.
I don't think Tifa gives any more insight into the world of FF7 than Barret who had just as equal traumatizing past. And also because Cloud shows us the same past too.

I have mostly covered this in the paragraphs above. However, it is also worth noting that there are countless characters throughout the Final Fantasy series who do not in any ways resemble their training, martial arts or otherwise. Just sticking to the FFVII compilation neither Zack or Cloud (or even Genesis or Angeal for that matter) are half as disciplined, particularly emotionally, as they should be after receiving military training. Probably the realism is sacrificed in favour of characterisation, narrative complexity and thematic dramatisation - I think there's a certain suspension of disbelief that's necessary to factor in.
You're trying to compare the characters by personality, not principles. Considering that the majority of the characters prior to FF7 came from 8-bit/16-bit with very basic storytelling. And also not to mention that the majority of these games are designed with a Job System (FF3, and 5), or have no preset class at all (FF1, and 2). The few games that do have established roles tend to be consistent with their personalities. And trust me, for the sake of this argument, I looked at every single FF playable main character with a pre-set role.

As for the characters mentioned in the FF7 Compilation, nothing about those characters' core principles is any different from the skillsets they practice. Zack is a natural fighter and gets in on the action as soon as he can. Cloud was secretly an infantryman who created a persona of what Soldier means and his personal interpretation of Zack. Crisis Core openly expresses that there is a big difference between how infantrymen and SOLDIER are treated. SOLDIER are celebrities and treated like heroes, specifically 1st Class Soldiers.

In addition, Angeal and Genesis are still secret experiments that are treated like favorite guinea pigs Their whole lifestyle was a lie fabricated by Shinra to keep their loyal dogs. No interpretation is required. It's all explicitly shown in Crisis Core. The very same applies to Sephiroth.



I don't think there is a definitive way to judge the morality behind Avalanche's actions or Tifa's misgivings. Some people believe that a restrained response to evil isn't moral while others say that there is never an excuse to resort to violence. The creators are simply giving us two different outlooks through the characters of Barret and Tifa. Barret believes the cause of saving the Planet justifies any means necessary and that sacrifice is inevitable, whereas Tifa is more restrained with what actions should be sanctioned so as to ensure other people don't get involved. Personally I find both outlooks valid since they hit on a different, equally valuable points: Barret's speaks to the idea of the greater good and the need to actually be effective, whereas Tifa's perspective highlights the need for personal accountability and accepting the responsibility of any sacrifice onto yourself. Both perspectives are also deeply rooted in the personalities of each character and are grounded in their past experiences.

The point is not whether Tifa was more morally correct objectively. It's the fact that her morals prevent her from taking any more action with Avalanche. And that causes a discrepancy in the way the story is told. As I explained to Six, in the original, being part of AVALANCHE already had plenty of room to explore the common ground. But in the remake, it doesn't seem like she really is a member of AVALANCHE.

This is where we can speculate for ourselves how much of an effective fighter Tifa really is. Does having a line you won't cross help or hinder her purpose? Again back to the example of a non-competitive person playing a competitive sport, are they truly hungry enough for the win?
Being competitive, and learning a skill are two different things that can affect each other. I don't think you're going to ever fully understand what i mean when i say skillsets affect personalities. Response timing, where your eyes drift to.

The one thing I don't personally see in Tifa having misgivings regarding Avalanche, is how they're engineered specifically to set her up as a waifu for Cloud. Through this lens, anything any of the characters did could be interpreted as simply laying the ground for Cloud's heroship, even the corruption of Shinra would arguably exist simply to serve his character arc.
NOt as directly as the other, but it's all the little details to help highlight Tifa (to Cloud) more. It doesn't work the same way with Shinra, because Shinra was clearly designed as part of the story before Cloud. Tifa was designed for Cloud, but Cloud was designed for us to see the world.

I would absolutely love to see more of the characters get developed to a greater extent, like a more comprehensive version of what FFXV did with their DLC character chapters. I don't think we have seen any Final Fantasy character created to this level of depth in the entire franchise so that would be remarkable.
Cid, Barret, Yuffie, and Vincent are all characters who aren't tethered to Cloud's arc and can all potentially tell their own story. Vincent had a whole game of his own, and Yuffie already has her own side story.

If we are talking about iconic moments where Tifa exists in her own right within the compilation in general, her fight against Loz in Advent Children is quite the stand out moment and is pretty consistent to her protective, caring nature. Considering that none of the other supporting protagonists (Barret, Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, Cait Sith, Red XIII) get their own individual fighting scene, I think it says something. There are also occasions in the Remake where she takes more of a lead for example during Rough Waters. Don't worry, I'm not going to name out each instance where Tifa gets more of a platform, all I'm pointing out is that they are there to an extent; I'm happy with them as a good enough representation but I assume they aren't as fulfilling or meaningful for you, which is fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

You're looking for moments when she's relevant, not moments that make her stand out. It was a great scene, but action isn't necessarily what I'm looking for. Because the story is about Cloud in Advent Children, Tifa is relevant by proxy. But I'm actually looking for her to have anything in the game that is 100% hers, and not something that she needs to rely on Cloud for.

I've covered why I personally disagree with the idea that Tifa is engineered only to serve as Cloud's love interest in previous paragraphs. It's worth adding though, that it's not any actual weakness on Tifa's part that you pointed out as making her fake, it was her pretence at being helpless and weak which you said made her seem manipulative, untrustworthy and fake. So my question was, how can a character who is being manipulative and fake be simultaneously effortlessly perfect? I don't think any man, otaku or otherwise is going to find a the flaw of being manipulative as being particularly attractive.
You're asking the same question I already answered. There was a reason why i highlighted the information in White. I'll repeat myself: Two different contexts for each statement.

effortlessly perfect = context of the NPCs and the game's perception of her. (not in the context of perceiving her in real life)

Manipulative fake = context of putting the exact same actions Tifa would do but in real life. (not in the context of how the NPCs look at her in the game)

The linking statement: Tifa is designed to be so ambiguously likable, that it makes it harder to define her, and makes her appear fake. And that's why she's so hard to relate to. And I'm sorry, but I genuinely think some Men don't even try to look further into Tifa from a narrative standpoint.

1) I get the impression that the gifs you have sent are simply showing how the characters are animated in the game, and not something inherent to Tifa. Have you seen how slowly some characters move in other Final Fantasy games, FFXIV is a nightmare of slow nodding and even slower walking - I'm not going to interpret this as The Scions of the Seventh Dawn being slothful, just that SE needs to cut down on the dramatics.

2) I don't personally think that CG has gotten to the place where body language can be accurately gauged, look at the nightmare that was the 'live action' Lion King - absolutely gross, and I'm sure the creators didn't intend that. I don't feel in a position to interpret the creators' intentions through graphics alone, I would also have to consider the dialogue.

All that being a thing, in a nutshell what I was saying was that in order for the discussion to stay on track and be clear to me exactly what you are critiquing, it would really help if there were some specific examples of things Tifa says and does in the game that you found contradictory. So far there was the example of her being afraid to jump off a moving train but this doesn't really cover all the points you're making. I hope that clears that point up!
As I explained to Six. If this was a matter of all the characters resembling this ambiguous vague anime-esque personality, it would be easier to define Tifa on what little there is to define her. Tifa is a very very unique character in the remake. But not in a good way. Her body language is so specific, and so are her expressions, that it comes across as manipulative and fake (not the game's intent, but it's there). It's to the point that she doesn't resemble a human being.

Biggs, Wedge, Jessie, Barret? Those characters look more real than Tifa (stuck in the 90s, but passable in the real world).

There are three key instances that really make Tifa such an inhuman character to interpret. When Cloud remembers the past and says "I'm sick of all of this". It's just not convincing at all that she lost her father to Sephiroth. In Crisis Core, while having no voiced line, the text was more angry and broken.

Another instance I think my biggest gripe with Tifa is after the Sector 7 plate falling. Tifa just stares down, and moments where we should be seeing a state of shock, if just a dead stare. And the thing is we've seen Tifa frown at least. Tifa had more connections to the people in Sector 7 than Barret. The most she can muster up any emotion is just shaking her fists, but her entire body reflects she just went through a breakup, not lost loved ones.

When Cloud and Tifa are in Aerith's house, I'll give them, that they really tried to make it seem like she was emotionally vulnerable...But then she slowly walks to Cloud and leans her head on his shoulder and then starts to cry. And once again, this would be considered manipulative in real life. women have and would do this with ulterior motives. But in the context of the game, it's to further reinforce Tifa/Cloud relationship. (Another example of appealing to Cloud's heroic side). And what's worst, is that Tifa is vulnerable here, and it would've been more believable that she fell to her knees and cried on her own other than slowly walking to Cloud to cry.
 
I can only hope you practice what you preach.

Bit brazen if I wasn't respectful to our members as an admin. The comments were going a direction they didn't need to, though. If you felt like mine were, my apologies. I just gotta make sure we stay on track and it's not some personal vendetta with the comments made. Kinda my job, you know? xD

That said, this is probably my last post contributing to this thread.

I think "bratty" depends on the person. You might be talking to someone who in their time played with Bratz dolls and resonated with the name. But I concede that "Bratty" can be inaccurate. For a more accurate word, I'll say Tifa definitely had more "spunk" in the original. And again, how she expressed herself based on text showed a lot different than how she expressed herself in the game. The contrast is similar to that of Kairi from Kingdom Hearts 1 and Kingdom Hearts 2. Can barely say they're the same character.

And although Tifa was a teenager in some scenes, she wasn't that older than she was before. But since Tifa hid in the background in a lot of scenes, and the frequent flashbacks to the past were more recognizable at times, I don't think it's wrong to consider that part of the present to some extent. It applies to Aerith too.

She still has her feisty moments in the remake. Very early on, even, where she keeps telling Cloud off to be nice when speaking to Merle. Bratty is subjective, and I'll take that if that's still how you perceive it, but she never seemed bratty to me.

if you can understand this, you can understand how it can be perceived how they fundamentally change how Tifa's core personality. Which in turn, affects her character. In the original, although is a love interest, her relevancy in the story varied from point to point. I'll say, she became more relevant after Aerith's death. And that was intentional to avoid any possible moments of her bringing up the fact that Cloud remembers his past wrong. By adding more Tifa screentime, and having the later material, in my opinion, they forgot what made Tifa great.

If I understood your point in that I would've said so. I personally don't think they changed Tifa's core personality at all. For starters, you're comparing a full game to the first part of the remake, which says absolutely nothing bar what we've seen so far being accurate to a lot of people (of course, some disagree, but again, perception plays a big role here). But again, you're comparing one part of the remake to a full game. It's not a comparison you can make. If you want to look at a small part of the OG and the remake I say Tifa still has the same character she had in the OG - albeit that some people might've had a completely different understanding of a character when no voice acting and pixel characters were still a thing. That goes for any character, though.

But you openly used it to relate to reality, not to say she has flaws in her design. That is why I had to clarify and address that nothing about Humans, is inconsistent. Just unexplained patterns that we're limited to our perception and our own brain. As I said, storytelling has no excuse for any inconsistencies.

If a person decides to be one way with one group, and intentionally the complete opposite with another that's inconsistent. A flaw to their personality. I'm not saying that's what Tifa does, for the record, I'm saying people can very much be inconsistent.

The reason why I said what I said was that you've openly and multiple times address Tifa in ways that resonate with you at a personal level. Things like submissiveness. Not speaking up at specific times. Not want to make a scene. Brown hair. Brown eyes. The reason why I don't believe you is that you haven't pointed out a real flaw with Tifa. Something that humanizes her base personality we see in the remake.

You've already assumed this before, and this is a problem. I've never said that submissiveness and not speaking up at specific times are things I relate to. On the latter I said I think it's tactful and that it's not always BEST to speak up at any given time at any given moment, like Aerith would do. Tifa, in my opinion, knows this, and I like that about her. I am not Tifa. I do not identify as Tifa like that. I'll quote what I've said before:

When I say that Tifa is an extremely relatable character, I meant that on even a surface level. How often do you see brown haired/brown eyed girls starring in a game? For me often times girls starring in games aren't comparable to what we got with Tifa, a lot of people classifying her as a "slut / bimbo" due to her clothing style, her bigger bust, or simple for the fact that they preferred Aerith. You seem to underestimate how often this happens in real life as well, I think people are just too insecure within themselves and they have to find flaws in people to make themselves feel better.

Six, everything I said was based on what was initially shared, and the pattern of backpedaling. If you want to re-clarify, now's the time. But if you want to stay true to what you said before and what you are saying now, there are discrepancies.


I'm not going to change what I've said, or re-clarifying everything that I've already clarified if you're not willing to see it but expect people to see Tifa the way you do. You talk a lot of about the psychology of people, and this is not meant as a dig, but perhaps look at your own unwillingness to look at things from a different angle. In this whole thread a lot of us have said we can see where you're coming from but fundamentally disagree, you've just continued to argue your point. I'm not saying it's wrong of you if you firmly believe it, but I do think there's a lack of willingness to understand people are different. If you want to dress this up and "not trying true to what I've said before" by all means, but that's a you problem - not a problem on something I, and others, have tried to lay on the table previously.

When I said this wasn't a "Me" thing. I'm saying that I'm not the only person who looks for body language to interpret someone. Now, you may not look for that when you are going on in your day-to-day life, and you may not want to do so with Tifa.

Just because we see things differently it doesn't mean that whoeever doesn't share your point of view doesn't look for exactly the same things; body language. Because I do. This is why I've, countless times, tried to tell you it's about perception. I'm a woman. I don't view Tifa as a threat. I don't view Aerith as a threat, but if we had to take your comparison about "stealing your man" - I'd be more concerned for Aerith - who flirts with men she knows another woman is interested in.

You're basically saying "If Tifa was a real person, she would be altered to what's consistent in real life". But the analogy demands you look at their behaviors as they are and put them in the real world. No alterations. We're talking about Body language here.

Generally, the body language of the FF7 cast is consistent with reality based on how the game perceives them. All except Tifa. It's important to note that Tifa's body language doesn't translate well in real life. To the point that it hurts her character significantly. When sector 7 faceplate fell, the one who felt the most emotion was Barret. Tifa for the sake of appealing to the composed and elegant side of her (the sarcastic effortlessly perfect) couldn't show a single bit of Emotion despite having more connections to Sector 7 than Barret. Sure, she may have shaken her fist in a way of compressing it but her face didn't look like she repressed any emotion. It was a base form of sadness that could've applied to any situation.

The reason why I make such a big point about her body language is that it is consistent with the reason to make her more appealing specifically to Otaku/Geek culture. Because when you see these traits actually in play, in reality, it does the OPPOSITE. It paints someone who is purposefully trying to be poise and elegant.

Now just so we be fair, all the other characters suffer from anime-personality syndrome to a certain extent. But they are still consistent enough with reality.

  • Cloud doesn't get away by being cold and aloof. People in the game call him out, and in real life that would happen too. Barret hates his attitude.
  • Barret being a loudmouth is also an issue in the game. And it's not just Cloud that calls him out. in the original, Tifa shut him up at times too.
  • Jessie is also bashed on by Cloud, Biggs, and Wedge for talking too much and being a flirt.
  • Wedge is made fun of for his appetite at times when it shows. He's nervous and over-the-top attitude makes it harder to take seriously on the mission.
  • Aerith is playful and teases a lot. Despite being old enough to be considered a young adult, adults treat her like a teen, and kids feel at ease with her and as part of their tribe.
The only one I might consider slightly unrealistic is how serious people take Yuffie in the remake's side story. But in the original, she was a bit of an optional character that could be ignored. Getting Yuffie to join is consistent with how some pre-teens are susceptible to reverse psychology.

If any character were to be a real person, they would be altered. You think Cloud would be walking around wielding a sword like that? The analogy demands you to look at their behaviour based on what the writers wrote them to be. You're not written in, like a game or book, in real life.

Tifa didn't seem composed or elegant to me when the plate fell, she seemed traumatised, not everyone has a "generic out of the book" reaction to things. If you're so heavy on psychology, you should know this? Also, speculation on her having more ties to Sector 7 than Barrett. You're comparing a pixel game to what can now more easily be portrayed in the games they make today, her reaction in the Remake shows it too. We don't see facial expressions in the OG - which might be your exact point that they then should've had Tifa out it in words, but that's a writer problem (and no I'm not deflecting here) I genuinely believe that's the case. Time and writing and limited ways of character expression.

The statistic is that men have a harder time reading negative/hostile body language than women in society. The point I'm making is that Men and Women are programmed differently. In real life, the moves Tifa will make will be obvious, may not. But a woman has a higher chance of knowing when another woman is flirting with someone. I don't regret sharing my personal experience, but that's all it is. An experience. The catalyst is still me at an early age learning to read body language.

You shouldn't regret sharing your personal experience, I wasn't attacking you on it at all (I haven't with anything for that matter). An experience is an experience, it's not reality. It's not something you can label / tag someone else with just because you experienced something. Learning to read body languages, but again it comes down to perceptions, people might be very good at it, but that isn't a guaranteed for analysing someone to the T. Which it seems what you're using it as and all I'm saying is that not only accurate but it also seems like you're the only looking at Tifa through a biased lens of personal experience. Which is FAIR, because again, perception and subjectivity to likes and dislikes.

I already expressed that this is in the context of the game.

But I do find it interesting that you compartmentalize Tifa haters to a specific subgroup, and it shows in this comment. You believe that Tifa fans "Understand her character".

I see it differently. I hate her because I understand her the most...I understand her true purpose in the game. I believe Tifa fans, tend to fall into two main categories. 1) either be openly honest that all they like about Tifa is her physical appearance and that's all. 2) they read into Tifa far greater than the others. Filling in story-gaps about her and freely interpreting her how they feel fit. Especially when trying to use the original as the topic, because things like "she is so brave and strong for being hidden and not demand more agency". Things that are your choice to perceive her that way, but never openly detailed in the game.

It's definitely why Tifa fans who fall in the second category, also tend to dislike Aerith. Aerith, is openly expressive, has her own mind, and isn't afraid to state it. Some people have yet to discover how to claim their space, so when someone openly does it, they can see it as toxic. But it's actually very healthy to state your desires, your boundaries, and what principles you follow and what you don't follow. Aerith does it in spades. And never to harm anyone else. She doesn't accept blame that isn't earned either.

Nowhere in my post did I compartmentalise Tifa haters to a specific subgroup, nor did I say that I believe Tifa fans like her because they understand her character.

I said "as a character", aka they might relate to some things. This is why a lot of people like ANY character, certain behaviours, dress senses, body types, hair colour, eye colour, names, pairing preferences, you name it. They might simply like Tifa because they love the dark haired light haired combo in pairings! It can literally be as silly as that.

Yet here we are. There's plenty of people that don't like Tifa. There's plenty of people that she doesn't appeal to. It's complete personal preference what characters people like. Some hate her because they see her as a rival for Cloud and Aerith, some hate her because she has a bigger bust, some hate her because she "looks slutty" some hate her because of the reasons you explained. Then some love her because they understand her as a character, love the design, love Cloud and Tifa, etc.

I gave loads of reasons why people may be in favour of Tifa, or Aerith. You saying you hate her because you understand her the most is exactly the problem (in my opinion) in this whole debate, your unwillingness to perhaps be wrong or form a different opinion because your own opinion is perhaps flawed. Again, most of us have been willing to see certain aspects, I don't feel like you have. Your comment there just proved that, in my opinion.

You compartmentalise Tifa fans to a specific subgroup. As your paragraph right there shows without a doubt.

I dislike Aerith's character, not because of the things you listed. I think Tifa has those things too, but even if Tifa didn't have those things, I still wouldn't dislike them about Aerith.

Stop trying to box people in, is all I have to say. You've literally just done what you accused me of. :lew:

So yes, I do dislike a character, and I don't like the devs who made her make choices that I believe aren't consistent with her character (but are consistent to make her appealing to those who idolize her). I believe that when they were making the original, they didn't know how popular she would be, so her true design is sort of hidden in there. But once she became a popular character, the devs forgot what made her special and made her less realistic.

It's fair if you don't like a character, but to "Shrink-role" those that do into all these obscure ways and to say that you are the one that truly understands her character, sorry but, even if you said this about Aerith, a character I really dislike I'd tell someone to get off their high horse.

Your opinion (or mine for that matter) is not fact about any of these characters. People who talk about video games this way aren't, in my experience, willing to be open to other views, they just wanna argue them.

Considering that seems to be the nature of this thread, I'm going to go ahead and say I'll leave it here on my end. I don't find this productive and I don't want this to turn into some unfriendly nonsense over a video game, with you having opposing views, which I'm personally fine with. As I've stated very early on, I'm not trying to convince you. I've said my piece, so I'll just be backing out of this thread for the sake of it not turning into a debate "How dare you like/dislike Tifa". I do believe we're going in circles at this point.

But yeah that's my two cents said and contributed to this thread. :wacky:
 
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So once again, this is a matter of how comfortable you're willing to fill in the gaps. You decided to fill the gaps based on your personal interpretation. And that leads to seeing a completely different character.

But this is how understanding works, you take two or more pieces of information and draw your own conclusions. There's no such thing as a universal absolute truth, especially when it comes to understanding a character in any piece of literature or media. So long as your conclusion is drawn from the context, and evidence in the story, the opinion is valid. This is why I have been referring to actual events and known, established attributes of Tifa's character - she is described as a shy and emotionally conflicted character who has suffered from bouts of isolation and loneliness in her childhood, this is not my interpretation, this is actually the established intention of the creators and verified throughout the compilation as a whole (OG and all).

I don't think Tifa gives any more insight into the world of FF7 than Barret who had just as equal traumatizing past. And also because Cloud shows us the same past too.

I never said 'more', I said specific. In fact, if you read that full paragraph you would have seen that I was talking about two people there (Tifa and Aerith) as a relevant example and said:

Each give the viewer an insight into world of Final Fantasy VII.
To me, Tifa is one of those characters who contextualises and embodies the foreboding vibe and theme of Anxious Heart.

This already shows that I've established that other characters also give significant insight into the world of FFVII - I mean, obviously. This sort of argument, which has characterised this entire discussion, is textbook strawman fallacy and it's exhausting to have to keep covering the same ground because my words are literally not being read.

You're trying to compare the characters by personality, not principles. Considering that the majority of the characters prior to FF7 came from 8-bit/16-bit with very basic storytelling. And also not to mention that the majority of these games are designed with a Job System (FF3, and 5), or have no preset class at all (FF1, and 2). The few games that do have established roles tend to be consistent with their personalities. And trust me, for the sake of this argument, I looked at every single FF playable main character with a pre-set role.

As for the characters mentioned in the FF7 Compilation, nothing about those characters' core principles is any different from the skillsets they practice. Zack is a natural fighter and gets in on the action as soon as he can. Cloud was secretly an infantryman who created a persona of what Soldier means and his personal interpretation of Zack. Crisis Core openly expresses that there is a big difference between how infantrymen and SOLDIER are treated. SOLDIER are celebrities and treated like heroes, specifically 1st Class Soldiers.

In addition, Angeal and Genesis are still secret experiments that are treated like favorite guinea pigs Their whole lifestyle was a lie fabricated by Shinra to keep their loyal dogs. No interpretation is required. It's all explicitly shown in Crisis Core. The very same applies to Sephiroth.

You have been stating that someone's skillset has a relevancy in their personality, so when I bring up how the skillsets these characters have been trained in have little to do with their personalities - you then switch it out and say that it's not really about personality, it's about principles. This whole argument is silly because a person's own principles are established by their moral outlook, perspectives in life and indeed personal preferences - literally nothing to do with their skills or the fundamentals of their learned skillset. Skills only tell us what a person can do, on the other hand their attitude/personality tells us what they can and will likely do with those skills. This is why employers consider personality and attitude far more than skills because your skills do not prove what you are inherently made of, they are acquired.

If we were establishing a character's lived experience here that would make a lot of sense, because then we would be looking at the motivation behind why they have selected their chosen path. For example, Zack is indeed a talented fighter which is why he did well in SOLDIER, but that doesn't stop him from disobeying orders and following his own morals (ie. principles) when it came to sparing Genesis and Angeal, he does this because one of his strongest personality traits to be protective of his friends. According to your logic his training and role as a 'fighter' should have overruled this impulse.

Also, I'm aware of what Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth are, what does any of that have to do with their personalities? Are you implying that because they are all given a pretence for their existence that they don't have their own individuality or morals? I mean, Angeal, literally the most principled character in Crisis Core with a very strict moral code, has to inevitably pick between his loyalties as a SOLDIER and as a friend, also goes against his training of complete obedience and picks his friend. You're right, there is no interpretation needed, how many more examples do I need to make of characters who break the mould of their training before the point is conceded that people are more than their job.


The point is not whether Tifa was more morally correct objectively. It's the fact that her morals prevent her from taking any more action with Avalanche. And that causes a discrepancy in the way the story is told. As I explained to Six, in the original, being part of AVALANCHE already had plenty of room to explore the common ground. But in the remake, it doesn't seem like she really is a member of AVALANCHE.

This was not the point you were making. You literally said:

No one questions her body language, is loved by all, depended by all, and even the ones who have a slight negative disposition like Jessie seem to come from a hint of jealousy. Any real disagreement between Avalanche and Tifa still made Tifa look like she was morally correct to over the eco-terrorists.

You were using this as justification of your view that she is fake and is given a false moral superiority - not that the story didn't integrate her more with Avalanche. You say she is loved and depended on by all - well, Tifa would need to hold some sort of meaning to Avalanche if she is to be depended on and love by all of them. I mean, pick one, either she's in or she's out.

Also, by making the mental leap that her moral stance is engineered to make her look superior in comparison to Avalanche, there has to be an objective look at the moral stance of other characters in the game. The framing has to be established in order to discern the potential meaning behind what is being defined and expected of the audience.

You believe the creators have decided to not explore the common ground between Tifa and Avalanche in order to create a moral conflict solely engineered to establish Tifa's moral superiority. I am saying that the framing of such scenes are not going to be universally agreed on because the creators gave audiences of either mindset plenty of room to make their own mind up on who they agree with - neither side is particularly villainised or admired for their stance (ie. we are given the opportunity to still like and accept both perspectives even if we personally agree with one or the other). For example look at Crisis Core, where we as Zack are presented with Genesis' perspectives, they are clearly framed as being objectionable since we are often positioned to have to fight him throughout the game, there's no room for misinterpretation from our end as to what viewpoint the creators deem as being 'wrong'. Whether or not I personally agree with Genesis or not is irrelevant as to how the game contextualises Genesis' position.

Being competitive, and learning a skill are two different things that can affect each other. I don't think you're going to ever fully understand what i mean when i say skillsets affect personalities. Response timing, where your eyes drift to.

As I pointed out above, this is not generally accepted as true. It is much more common for people to understand that attitude and personality affect how we manifest and engage with our skills. Google literally any hiring manual and it will break this point down further.

When Cloud and Tifa are in Aerith's house, I'll give them, that they really tried to make it seem like she was emotionally vulnerable...But then she slowly walks to Cloud and leans her head on his shoulder and then starts to cry. And once again, this would be considered manipulative in real life. women have and would do this with ulterior motives. But in the context of the game, it's to further reinforce Tifa/Cloud relationship. (Another example of appealing to Cloud's heroic side). And what's worst, is that Tifa is vulnerable here, and it would've been more believable that she fell to her knees and cried on her own other than slowly walking to Cloud to cry.

This left me absolutely gobsmacked, the idea that a woman sharing a genuinely vulnerable moment with her childhood friend could be somehow twisted into something manipulative. I was going to unpack this point and make it into a whole thing but on reflection I think this is where I have to tap out of the conversation. Given the nature of this discussion it might lead past a point of no return and there's no value in that, we're talking about a video game character here at the end of the day.

All I can say is that I strongly, respectfully disagree with the whole stance that Tifa is manipulative and fake and have given several, contextual examples as to why I don't read that meaning into her depiction. However, I do agree that Tifa is framed differently in the Remake than she is in the original, but given her backstory shown throughout the compilation, it comes across more as strengthening some aspects of her already established personality rather than fabricating something completely out of the blue. I prefer how she is depicted in the Remake more simply because I enjoy the richer complexity her emotional conflict brings to the story. This is where I am going to essentially leave it at.
 
She still has her feisty moments in the remake. Very early on, even, where she keeps telling Cloud off to be nice when speaking to Merle. Bratty is subjective, and I'll take that if that's still how you perceive it, but she never seemed bratty to me.
I wouldn't call her feisty, even at her worst in the remake.

If I understood your point in that I would've said so. I personally don't think they changed Tifa's core personality at all. For starters, you're comparing a full game to the first part of the remake, which says absolutely nothing bar what we've seen so far being accurate to a lot of people (of course, some disagree, but again, perception plays a big role here). But again, you're comparing one part of the remake to a full game. It's not a comparison you can make. If you want to look at a small part of the OG and the remake I say Tifa still has the same character she had in the OG - albeit that some people might've had a completely different understanding of a character when no voice acting and pixel characters were still a thing. That goes for any character, though.

The fact that FF7 remakes part 1 pads out a lot of aspects specifically for Tifa/Aerith. I would be "pleasantly surprised" if future parts focus on roles that didn't involve Tifa/Aerith so much. But judging the nature of Remake Part 1, they're not going to put the love triangle in the background, it's going to be in the foreground.

it's interesting you say "that goes for any character". Because for the most part, I haven't seen anyone disagree on an interpretation of a character. Even with people who have different opinions on characters. LIke Aerith. I don't agree with how you view Aerith. but I think that's what I like about Aerith.

Tifa is a whole different layer. A layer we have to acknowledge is different from the rest of the FF7 cast.


If a person decides to be one way with one group, and intentionally the complete opposite with another that's inconsistent. A flaw to their personality. I'm not saying that's what Tifa does, for the record, I'm saying people can very much be inconsistent.
That's not really an example of being inconsistent. We treat groups differently. If you are witnessing the behavior, it may seem inconsistent at first, but that's only because we're limited to our own bodies to perceive all that there is to perceive.

Video game characters don't have that limitation, because it's all on what the authors/writers present to us.


You've already assumed this before, and this is a problem. I've never said that submissiveness and not speaking up at specific times are things I relate to. On the latter I said I think it's tactful and that it's not always BEST to speak up at any given time at any given moment, like Aerith would do. Tifa, in my opinion, knows this, and I like that about her. I am not Tifa. I do not identify as Tifa like that. I'll quote what I've said before:

The reality is that Tifa did more than just not speak up, she actually perpetuated the lie. She ignored certain things. i have a feeling that FF7 REmake to further reinforce her as a potential interest will use the Whispers of Fate as a cop-out to that huge character flaw. But that character flaw is still not enough for me. I would've liked more to it than just "make Cloud happy".




I'm not going to change what I've said, or re-clarifying everything that I've already clarified if you're not willing to see it but expect people to see Tifa the way you do.
I did give you a chance to wipe the slate clean and really ignore what was said before and focus on what you're saying now. But if you don't want to do that. Then I guess I'm just subject to both what was said before and now as it was said.

You talk a lot of about the psychology of people, and this is not meant as a dig, but perhaps look at your own unwillingness to look at things from a different angle. In this whole thread a lot of us have said we can see where you're coming from but fundamentally disagree, you've just continued to argue your point. I'm not saying it's wrong of you if you firmly believe it, but I do think there's a lack of willingness to understand people are different. If you want to dress this up and "not trying true to what I've said before" by all means, but that's a you problem - not a problem on something I, and others, have tried to lay on the table previously.

I think the different angle has to come from "the game". The angles you want me to look at are a bit obtuse. You only appeal to reality when there's something not so easily understood. And that to me is a cop-out.

And when I do the same to highlight inconsistencies in her character, you don't want to do that.



Just because we see things differently it doesn't mean that whoeever doesn't share your point of view doesn't look for exactly the same things; body language. Because I do. This is why I've, countless times, tried to tell you it's about perception. I'm a woman. I don't view Tifa as a threat. I don't view Aerith as a threat, but if we had to take your comparison about "stealing your man" - I'd be more concerned for Aerith - who flirts with men she knows another woman is interested in.
The fact that it took this long to even have you respond to the topic of body language says something. The fact that the analogy focus on whether Tifa existed in real life based purely on body language made you still focus on other things like "she has eyes for the cloud. so I'm not worried" The following quote proves this too:

If any character were to be a real person, they would be altered. You think Cloud would be walking around wielding a sword like that? The analogy demands you to look at their behaviour based on what the writers wrote them to be. You're not written in, like a game or book, in real life.

No. That's not what the analogy demands. That's what you chose to do for the sake of your argument.

I'm asking you to analyze Tifa as she is with the context of her behavior existing in the real world. That literally is asking you "look at her video game traits and see if they work in the real world" Specifically her
Body Language. (You know, the thing you just now claimed you have been focused on the entire time)

By you saying the analogy demands their behavior based on what the writers wrote them to be, tells me you already made the alterations in your head to defend the character.

You're absolutely right that I'm a real person in the real world and i can't be converted into a game or book without removing some aspects of what makes me "me". The analogy nonetheless isn't demanding to "add" aspects to Tifa for the sake of making her real. That tells me you subconsciously are aware of my point. That Tifa doesn't translate to the same person in real life.


Tifa didn't seem composed or elegant to me when the plate fell, she seemed traumatised, not everyone has a "generic out of the book" reaction to things. If you're so heavy on psychology, you should know this?
Me knowing that not everyone has a "generic out of the book" reaction to things, doesn't excuse the terrible execution they've done with Tifa.

Obviously, we're not looking for an extreme over-the-top reaction like some animes. But there still has to be a semblance of an appropriate reaction. We're still talking about a whole city of people who were killed in a pretty horrific way. And witnessing it first-hand. People with who Tifa had a direct connection, and has spoken. People who in this version of FF7, Tifa was actively looking out for. If anyone had any connection to those people out of the three, Tifa should've been the one.

My problem is that Tifa's body language is all over the map. It doesn't make sense if you truly analyze it for what it is. Is she repressing emotions? is that her genuine unfiltered emotion with repression? Is she sad for the people that died?


1st, When she is bent down and stares at the plate. I won't be too harsh on this, considering the game refused to let us absorb that moment. but nonetheless, she had zero facial changes. What could've helped sell the emotion was a zoom-in on her eyes, and really see the shock.

2nd After landing safely, she sees Barret react appropriately to his character. What does Tifa do? She clenches her fists and makes them tremble. Which is one sign that she's suppressing her emotions. That's not bad at all, but if you're going to commit to showing a sign of suppressing emotions, use the whole body. Trembling fists are the generic way of showing suppressed emotions, and it's usually done wrong because shaking fists are usually the last sign you get (not the first).
are her arms and shoulders tense? no. is she biting her lip, is she narrowing her eyebrows? The unfortunate thing is that Tifa's face is showing some vulnerability, she is showing sadness that seems to not be suppressed. However, the sadness doesn't look like a personal loss, but that of a friend's loss. It doesn't look as personal to Tifa.


3rd, shortly after that, we see her walking with Cloud and Barret. Cloud is walking with a focus. Barrett is following trying to catch up and make sense, so he isn't trying to get ahead of Cloud, but is still demanding attention to give him the answers he needs. Tifa is lagging behind, but she walks as if she never heard any issues. Especially because Tifa is behind, gives her more room to show signs of emotional distress.

4th, So after Tifa and Cloud have alone time, she is very vulnerable and candid with her feelings. But instead of unleashing her feelings, she does this cinematic slow walk to Cloud's shoulder, then slowly unleashes her cry in waves. And if this was done in the real world, other women would most definitely think it's manipulative. She didn't ask to be held. Especially because Cloud is dead silent.

Also, speculation on her having more ties to Sector 7 than Barrett. You're comparing a pixel game to what can now more easily be portrayed in the games they make today, her reaction in the Remake shows it too. We don't see facial expressions in the OG - which might be your exact point that they then should've had Tifa out it in words, but that's a writer problem (and no I'm not deflecting here) I genuinely believe that's the case. Time and writing and limited ways of character expression.
I'm only basing Tifa's connection to Sector 7 on what is explicit in the game. FF7 remake didn't highlight anything about hot Barret has a connection to sector 7, so there is no reason to theorize he does. The point with a low-poly pixel game is that they needed to rely on words more than body language. But if you're going to remake a game. Make sure the body language is at least consistent with the dialogue implemented.


You shouldn't regret sharing your personal experience, I wasn't attacking you on it at all (I haven't with anything for that matter). An experience is an experience, it's not reality. It's not something you can label / tag someone else with just because you experienced something. Learning to read body languages, but again it comes down to perceptions, people might be very good at it, but that isn't a guaranteed for analysing someone to the T. Which it seems what you're using it as and all I'm saying is that not only accurate but it also seems like you're the only looking at Tifa through a biased lens of personal experience. Which is FAIR, because again, perception and subjectivity to likes and dislikes.

My experience is merely to explain the catalyst for my pursuit of body language. And it's not that uncommon. My experience is a real experience, therefore it is part of reality. It doesn't mean someone else can't have different experiences or different perspectives.

My analysis has room for more than one interpretation. But that's kind of my point from the beginning, the fact that there is enough room to interpret Tifa as manipulative/fake based on body language alone (not based on everything else). Obviously, the game's narrative is against that idea, but her actions if taken in the real world wouldn't be as excusable.

I never really tried to convince you that my interpretation was right and that you should see it my way. I only explained why it's a very valid perspective. IN which this whole conversation you've been dumbfounded by it. And said the things like insecure, or intimidated by Tifa.


Nowhere in my post did I compartmentalise Tifa haters to a specific subgroup, nor did I say that I believe Tifa fans like her because they understand her character.

I said "as a character", aka they might relate to some things. This is why a lot of people like ANY character, certain behaviours, dress senses, body types, hair colour, eye colour, names, pairing preferences, you name it. They might simply like Tifa because they love the dark haired light haired combo in pairings! It can literally be as silly as that.
These are the following comments by you:

  1. I find a lot of people come across as intimidated by Tifa if they dislike her.
  2. I think people are just too insecure within themselves and they have to find flaws in people to make themselves feel better.
  3. Some hate her because they see her as a rival for Cloud and Aerith, some hate her because she has a bigger bust, some hate her because she "looks slutty" some hate her because of the reasons you explained. Then some love her because they understand her as a character, love the design, love Cloud and Tifa, etc.

^Now based on these comments, (and there are more), I feel that Tifa haters do have other things in common and that Tifa for the most part of her character is very one-note. It's not that she has a bigger bust, it's not that she looks slutty. it's that to the haters, there's nothing more to her that humanizes her like Aerith.

I gave loads of reasons why people may be in favour of Tifa, or Aerith. You saying you hate her because you understand her the most is exactly the problem (in my opinion) in this whole debate, your unwillingness to perhaps be wrong or form a different opinion because your own opinion is perhaps flawed. Again, most of us have been willing to see certain aspects, I don't feel like you have. Your comment there just proved that, in my opinion.

Are you willing to be wrong and admit to flawed opinions? Why should I believe you that you're right and that your opinion isn't flawed?

What does a flawed opinion look like? What makes it important for me to be willing to be wrong as opposed to you?

What aspects were you willing to see?

What makes me different from you in this scenario?


You compartmentalise Tifa fans to a specific subgroup. As your paragraph right there shows without a doubt.

Oh for sure. I 100% compartmentalize Tifa fans into specific categories. But never in a negative/positive way. Just based on the experiences shared with previous fans. Some people have expressed they "Interpret" Tifa. When I ask them where it explicitly explained what they claim is there, they say it's not, but it's based on circumstantial evidence about her past.

I don't look for excuses or look for labels. There are just two categories Tifa fans usually fall under. I'm willing to see them differently based on new information of course.

I dislike Aerith's character, not because of the things you listed. I think Tifa has those things too, but even if Tifa didn't have those things, I still wouldn't dislike them about Aerith.
I don't think this statement makes perfect sense.

Stop trying to box people in, is all I have to say. You've literally just done what you accused me of. :lew:
I'm willing to see Tifa fans differently if they present different views.

It's fair if you don't like a character, but to "Shrink-role" those that do into all these obscure ways and to say that you are the one that truly understands her character, sorry but, even if you said this about Aerith, a character I really dislike I'd tell someone to get off their high horse.
It just happened with you Six. Don't worry, it's not something I do with every Tifa fan.


Your opinion (or mine for that matter) is not fact about any of these characters. People who talk about video games this way aren't, in my experience, willing to be open to other views, they just wanna argue them.

Six....you realize you're saying these things...and you think you're describing me and me alone but you're doing the exact same thing.


Considering that seems to be the nature of this thread, I'm going to go ahead and say I'll leave it here on my end. I don't find this productive and I don't want this to turn into some unfriendly nonsense over a video game, with you having opposing views, which I'm personally fine with. As I've stated very early on, I'm not trying to convince you. I've said my piece, so I'll just be backing out of this thread for the sake of it not turning into a debate "How dare you like/dislike Tifa". I do believe we're going in circles at this point.
I agree...I think there is an unwillingness to accept an analogy for what it is. And there were definitely moments where you acted like you knew what I was talking about and then claim such things, but you made these claims very recently and don't line up at all with your statements.


But yeah that's my two cents said and contributed to this thread. :wacky:
Farewell then.

But this is how understanding works, you take two or more pieces of information and draw your own conclusions. There's no such thing as a universal absolute truth, especially when it comes to understanding a character in any piece of literature or media. So long as your conclusion is drawn from the context, and evidence in the story, the opinion is valid. This is why I have been referring to actual events and known, established attributes of Tifa's character - she is described as a shy and emotionally conflicted character who has suffered from bouts of isolation and loneliness in her childhood, this is not my interpretation, this is actually the established intention of the creators and verified throughout the compilation as a whole (OG and all).
Emotionally conflicted and shy doesn't excuse there are really big gaps. You have some BIG theories. And you really do take some liberties in filling those gaps. The game unfortunately doesn't even come close to hinting at what you said. It could be explained that way. but the fact that it doesn't also says something.


I never said 'more', I said specific. In fact, if you read that full paragraph you would have seen that I was talking about two people there (Tifa and Aerith) as a relevant example and said:
Each give the viewer an insight into world of Final Fantasy VII.
To me, Tifa is one of those characters who contextualises and embodies the foreboding vibe and theme of Anxious Heart.

This already shows that I've established that other characters also give significant insight into the world of FFVII - I mean, obviously. This sort of argument, which has characterised this entire discussion, is textbook strawman fallacy and it's exhausting to have to keep covering the same ground because my words are literally not being read.

I am aware of your statement. I know you never said "more". I still said what I said. I daresay I don't think Tifa was designed to give more insight into the world of FF7. I genuinely do believe Tifa was designed to be 1) A love interest and 2) a Plot twist to Cloud's Past. There's nothing more to Tifa than that.


You have been stating that someone's skillset has a relevancy in their personality, so when I bring up how the skillsets these characters have been trained in have little to do with their personalities - you then switch it out and say that it's not really about personality, it's about principles.
I do admit I worded that COMPLETELY WRONG. And I Apologize. So allow me to clarify:

I said:

You're trying to compare the characters by personality, not principles.

What I should've said:
You're trying to compare the character's personalities in the most basic form possible, and you're not taking in that their principles that are pre-established don't appear to conflict with their skillsets. Their principles are also part of their personality or at least a reflection of their personalities.


This whole argument is silly because a person's own principles are established by their moral outlook, perspectives in life and indeed personal preferences - literally nothing to do with their skills or the fundamentals of their learned skillset. Skills only tell us what a person can do, on the other hand their attitude/personality tells us what they can and will likely do with those skills. This is why employers consider personality and attitude far more than skills because your skills do not prove what you are inherently made of, they are acquired.
Principles are indeed established at the most core aspects of the personality. And the choice to learn a skill will be based on those principles. That doesn't change the fact that learning a skill with training doesn't affect the personality in any way. (and this is the 5th time I clarified that it doesn't imply any preset parameters you made up in your head.)

Not all employers will ask you what you will do with those skills, but they do try to read your personality ahead of hiring for their benefit. They don't want anyone to be a liability to the work required. Time/Resources is also something at play for Employers. They don't have the time/resources to do any additional training they don't want. Regardless of personality, experience is usually what employers look for.


If we were establishing a character's lived experience here that would make a lot of sense, because then we would be looking at the motivation behind why they have selected their chosen path. For example, Zack is indeed a talented fighter which is why he did well in SOLDIER, but that doesn't stop him from disobeying orders and following his own morals (ie. principles) when it came to sparing Genesis and Angeal, he does this because one of his strongest personality traits to be protective of his friends. According to your logic his training and role as a 'fighter' should have overruled this impulse.
No, my logic doesn't say that at all. All it says is that trained skillsets affect personality. I never said to what extent. It obviously varies from person to person. It doesn't even go into detail on how it's affected. Remember Galadin, these are YOUR ASSUMPTIONS.


But in this discussion, we should go back to Tifa. You said Tifa's strength is her vulnerability and you even imply that is what the game wants us to perceive. But the game also wants us to believe she was trained to be a skilled fighter by a martial arts master (Zangan).
if Tifa was being taught by a martial arts master (Zangan), vulnerability is absolutely the first thing they want to tackle. The literal definition of vulnerable is "susceptible to physical or emotional attack or harm." Martial artists would never allow themselves to be "vulnerable". And a master would teach Tifa to work on those aspects to overcome vulnerability. So either Zangan's training isn't that good, (or more likely a written excuse to make Tifa a brawler) or she isn't that good of a fighter.

I know you opt to believe that Tifa isn't as good of a fighter (because it's the easiest way to explain away the problem) but the game doesn't want us to believe that. The game immediately wants us to believe she is very skilled. This is why I said that she would've been better off self-trained. Because it meant she still had an affinity to it, and no master to target the vulnerabilities.


Also, I'm aware of what Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth are, what does any of that have to do with their personalities? Are you implying that because they are all given a pretence for their existence that they don't have their own individuality or morals?
Because Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth are technically not considered to be human, and therefore may not require as much training to gain the skillsets the average human would. Less training = less the personality is affected. It could even be considered second nature to them based on how the game chose to portray their abilities. But the examples given, don't really prove that their personalities conflict with their skillsets. They still enjoy the battle, and they actually want opportunities to unleash their potential during their time at Shinra (shown explicitly in Crisis Core)

I mean, Angeal, literally the most principled character in Crisis Core with a very strict moral code, has to inevitably pick between his loyalties as a SOLDIER and as a friend, also goes against his training of complete obedience and picks his friend. You're right, there is no interpretation needed,
Exactly. Angeal was conflicted about how he should use his abilities. And that conflict was very direct. I wouldn't say "complete obedience" was something that was directly trained. Most jobs ask for obedience, so that's nothing special about Shinra.

Now, why can't Tifa be as direct as Angeal on the principles her skillset demands, and her own separate principles, especially if she has a Master?

how many more examples do I need to make of characters who break the mould of their training before the point is conceded that people are more than their job.

What mold are you talking about? You mentioned Zack, Cloud, Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth. Characters that embrace their training that they received and continued to use it.

I also never disagreed that people are more than their job. This is you continuing to misinterpret the statement "Personalities are affected by skillsets that require training".

Once again...you're making your own personal assumptions.




This was not the point you were making. You literally said:

No one questions her body language, is loved by all, depended by all, and even the ones who have a slight negative disposition like Jessie seem to come from a hint of jealousy. Any real disagreement between Avalanche and Tifa still made Tifa look like she was morally correct to over the eco-terrorists.

You were using this as justification of your view that she is fake and is given a false moral superiority - not that the story didn't integrate her more with Avalanche. You say she is loved and depended on by all - well, Tifa would need to hold some sort of meaning to Avalanche if she is to be depended on and love by all of them. I mean, pick one, either she's in or she's out.
I'm genuinely curious, when I say "fake", what context are you applying? Because I thought I clarified that the context is that her actions be used in real life. not in the how the game wants us to perceive her. The comment you're quoting doesn't even use the word.

Also, by making the mental leap that her moral stance is engineered to make her look superior in comparison to Avalanche, there has to be an objective look at the moral stance of other characters in the game. The framing has to be established in order to discern the potential meaning behind what is being defined and expected of the audience.
The framing is that we constantly see NPCs talk about how Avalanche is literally ruining their lives. Again, we know they're not morally right in the first place. Even Jessie wasn't expecting the blast to be that big.

My problem with Tifa disagreeing with Avalanche is that the framing of it still shows that Tifa isn't okay with Avalanche's actions. To the point that she can't join the mission. Avalanche of course isn't morally superior, objectively, and we're not supposed to side with Avalanche 100%. In the original, there were already questionable acts.

But it still said a lot in the original, that Tifa was already willing to be part of Avalanche and ok with their deeds even if she wasn't directly involved. So to add to this conflict about joining the mission. Does Barret trust Tifa even with Marlene? Do Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge trust Tifa after disagreeing on how to save the planet?

Nope. it's all good. she's still liked by the crew, she doesn't even need to earn their trust. Of course, some might blame the Whispers of Fate's involvement (which is another problem with FF7 storytelling). I mean, Barret gave Cloud a really hard time, and he was someone who was willing to do what Barret asked for the right price. Now I get that Barret has resentment toward SOLDIERs, but still seems unfair to give Cloud a hard time for literally doing the job he's being paid to do, and Tifa who is considered a founding member, goes against a mission on the team. And not visited again in the story.


You believe the creators have decided to not explore the common ground between Tifa and Avalanche in order to create a moral conflict solely engineered to establish Tifa's moral superiority.
I wouldn't use the word "superiority", their morals didn't line up. but yes. Like I said before, objectively, we are supposed to see Avalanche as a grey area. Not evil, but not 100% righteous. It was an afterthought rather than building Tifa's character. I might even say it does the opposite.

I am saying that the framing of such scenes are not going to be universally agreed on because the creators gave audiences of either mindset plenty of room to make their own mind up on who they agree with - neither side is particularly villainised or admired for their stance (ie. we are given the opportunity to still like and accept both perspectives even if we personally agree with one or the other). For example look at Crisis Core, where we as Zack are presented with Genesis' perspectives, they are clearly framed as being objectionable since we are often positioned to have to fight him throughout the game, there's no room for misinterpretation from our end as to what viewpoint the creators deem as being 'wrong'. Whether or not I personally agree with Genesis or not is irrelevant as to how the game contextualises Genesis' position.

The framing has always been that Avalanche was doing questionable actions. In the remake, we see how the NPCs of Midgar feel inconvenienced by Avalance. Especially because in the beginning of the game, we don't fully understand the level of how evil FF7 is (up until after the plate falls), In the original, we also see innocent people inconvenienced by Avalanche.

As I pointed out above, this is not generally accepted as true. It is much more common for people to understand that attitude and personality affect how we manifest and engage with our skills. Google literally any hiring manual and it will break this point down further.
I say "skillsets that require training affect personality".

Regardless, here is just one link out of the dozen links I can provide for you:


This left me absolutely gobsmacked, the idea that a woman sharing a genuinely vulnerable moment with her childhood friend could be somehow twisted into something manipulative.
Do you genuinely believe that a woman sharing vulnerable moments with anyone is always genuine in real life? Do you believe women can't be manipulative? And if you do believe Women can be manipulative, do you believe it's as direct as you expect it to be? I don't agree with how Tifa handled that situation. Tifa practically forced Cloud to comfort her. And whether she had ulterior motives or not, was manipulative. The game doesn't want to frame it that way, but if it happened in real life, it would be called out for what it is.

Remember, we're talking about how Tifa's movements, stiffness, lack of facial expressions, and lack of genuine body language all make Tifa resemble the "Yamato Nadeshiko" mindset Japan has. Unfortunately, Yamato Nadeshiko is all unrealistic expectations. But done to an extreme to the point that it doesn't look genuine. There are other characters that are almost EXACTLY like Tifa but do a much better job. Like I said Persona 4's Yukiko.


I've shared multiple scenes with many friends, and many agree that the way FF7Remake chose to portray Tifa makes her look unrealistic. One of my friends even called her a "Robot girl" because she doesn't emote or move like a real person. Granted, I shared Aerith scenes with the same friends and they didn't have anything nice to say. Childish, and overbearing. But the criticism is just geared toward her personality, not their preference, not that she is unrealistic or artificial.
All I can say is that I strongly, respectfully disagree with the whole stance that Tifa is manipulative and fake and have given several, contextual examples as to why I don't read that meaning into her depiction.

All my examples apply to how the behaviors Tifa portrays wouldn't work in real life. OBVIOUSLY, when I say Tifa is fake. I'm not saying that there is a secret personality in the game. I'm saying purely that what Tifa is in the game, won't be perceived the same way in Real life.

However, I do agree that Tifa is framed differently in the Remake than she is in the original, but given her backstory shown throughout the compilation, it comes across more as strengthening some aspects of her already established personality rather than fabricating something completely out of the blue. I prefer how she is depicted in the Remake more simply because I enjoy the richer complexity her emotional conflict brings to the story. This is where I am going to essentially leave it at.
Tifa has not been given any new backstory from the Compilation. Everything we know about Tifa has remained in the og FF7. Compilation only retreads on the OG. What Compilation changed in Tifa, was her personality type. I even say Crisis Core fits closer to her original personality in the OG PS1 version.

What you consider "complexity" I see as "conflicting", and again, this is because you're willing to fill in gaps. But the gaps are only getting larger.
 
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