"God is as real as Maths"

[Davey Gaga]

In my absence here, I joined another forum. In their debate section, this exact thread was created. I found it very interesting and I'd love to hear what you all think.

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When people say to prove that God exists, but without using the Bible, Christian Views or the Church, it's impossible.

In the same manner, if you ask to prove that maths exists without addition, subtraction, multiplication or division, it cannot be done.

The point: by taking away the things that CAN prove that God exists, it is impossible. So, to symbolise this, maths has been used. Maths winds down to those four terms, so if you take away the its proof if existance, it's logical to conclude that if God can't be proven, then neither can Maths, right?

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I personally don't agree with this and I'll post why, once I have something to argue with. Arguing with yourself is no fun

 

[Kether]

Hmm ... for me, God is Maths.

Think about it: mathematics is merely using numbers to make calculations, sums, formulas etc., in order to create solutions to problems. But mathematics is entirely based on the laws of the Universe ... 1 + 1 = 2 and is the solid core base of all maths.

And when you consider my outlook, that God is present in everything and is, in fact, the Universe and we are all part of him, then it only shows that mathematical laws are also part of God and the way the Universe works.

 

[FireZ]

IMO, mathematics is not based on the laws of the universe. We merely use math to describe the consistency in the universe that we observe. And 1+1=2 isn't the base for mathematics. Once you take enough advanced math courses (say Aabstract Algebra), you throw numbers and operators out the door and study the core of them and what they really mean. And you can definitely desribe math with addition, subtraction, etc, just take Abstract Algebra and you'll see what "real" math is (though it's generally a graduate level math class at most universities).

Anyway... here's my general thought on all of this...

I don't believe that you need the Bible to prove the existence of God. The Bible was a book composed by humans, so how could that possibly prove God's existence? However, I do believe that no matter how much we discover about are universe, there will always a question as to why or how something else happens. So let's take the question of existence: how are we here? Science says we evolved from simple parts to complex beings. Okay, how did the simple parts get here? Big bang. All right, what caused the big bang? One theory is string theory/parallel universes colliding. Okay, where did the strings/parallel universes come from? No one knows. Every answer about our universe will always raise another question, and the only way to answer every question is via a higher power that is beyond us. That's personally why I believe in God. The more I study science, the more I realize there is so much we can't explain and will never be able to. Not to mention, it's basically mathematically impossible for the spotaneous formation of the most basic elements (like proteins) required for our existence.

I could go on and on and on about this topic, as both math and God interest me very much.

But those are just my ramblings for now. What does everyone else think?

 

[QuickSilverD]

Well I always found math confusing and complicated as hell, much like God, so it seems like a fare comparison. The thing with math is that there are some problems, some exercises that use such procedures that make you think “no, no, no this guy just came up with this stuff, with did he moved those numbers? He just manipulated the equation in his favor”<o></o>
<o> </o>
Do you get what I mean or am just too bad at math? Anyway the problem with this comparison is well God is God, maths are maths. People pray to God all time and attribute him all good things that happen in their life, because we really can’t do anything good by ourselves.<o></o>
<o> </o>
And maths, even when they are so tricky they can always proof themselves, even if you used that weird procedure equations can always be proven by eliminating the incognita. That’s the problem with this comparison God cannot be proven the same way math can be, if you could do that, then there would be no such a thing as faith.<o></o>
<o> </o>
There is people that live their lives trying to prove that God does not exists, these kind of people is sad, why? Because you cannot prove that God does not exist, more than proving he does, why? Because of faith, people will always have it, they will not listen to people who say the opposite, nothing wrong with that, just that if God is not real then we all die and that’s it, but if he is real then we all die and life again, is not something you want to stop believing in.<o></o>
<o> </o>
So this comparison is not a good one, math and God are not comparable, God cannot be proven to exist and if we could do it, then it would not be God. <o></o>

 

[Juke]

Also, why is it that people go to each other and ask each other whether or not God exist when you could just go ask God yourself.

It's not impossible without the Bible or the Church. It is however extremely difficult to determine an existence of God if God does not interact with his own creation. Other external sources or references include reference to Jesus Christ (or Yahshua ha Mashiach) in the writings of Josephus Flavius work "Antiquities of the Jews" which was around 92 A.D. There is also mention of Christ in the works of Tacitus, a Roman historian. Also, locations mentioned in the Bible such as the Sea of Reeds crossing, Mt. Sinai. Another is Israel. Noah's Ark. Flood myths. The list could go on.

Perhaps the most important object when found or making an appearance would be the Ark of the Covenant. The appearance of just this object will dispel a lot of criticism.

I also think that one of my Physics professor best said it when he said that physics is used to help explain how some of the things God created works.

 

[der Astronom]

In some sense, you're right that math doesn't exist; it's abstract. It's applicable in the real world, but it's not required to be proven to exist. Since math deals with numbers like i and infinity, and they don't exist, you could say that math doesn't exist and it's just abstract. But at least it's useful in the real world for something like sciences or even economics. But I do not agree that there is any correlation between God or math because math, like science, can be considered a discovery, and it is a man made concept. It also relies quite a bit on intelligence, and I realize that God doesn't really liken to intelligence; he likens towards people having faith. The beauty of math relies on intelligence, not faith. And why God would create something that invokes as much skepticism as math does is beyond me. So I don't think he created it.

 

[FireZ]

Nice post Juke, good points.

Just because something isn't tangible doesn't mean it doesn't exist. i and infinity do exist, you just can't quantify them. They're as real as -4 and 0 are even though you can't see them. But all numbers were created by humans to describe the things that they observed (0 is an interesting number and it's existence was denied for hundreds of years. Pythagoras tried to hide the fact that 0 existed and people found out about it and hunted him down and killed him. The Catholic church tried to deny its existence a few hundred years ago because they thought the existence of 0 could disprove the fact that the Vatican was the religious center of the universe.) I think the comparison between math and God is interesting, but I don't think the existence of one is comparable to the existence of the other.

 

[Juke]

Have you ever studied probability? Look up the probability of Jesus Christ fulfilling prophecy. It's a very interesting study conducted by a Professor Stoner. Afterward, consider how math could be relevant to faith and intelligence and where that places God as Creator.

 

[der Astronom]

Math has nothing to do with faith. I can do well in math and not use a bit of faith at all. Math is logic.

 

[Juke]

Have you ever taken a math test that has a hard math question? If you've taken high levels of math, I'm sure that you would've placed down an answer hoping that it would be correct. Not all but for those complex question. That's having blind faith. If the test paper comes back with that particular question correct, you are over-joyed that you answered it correctly. If not, you are disappointed. So even when dealing with math, there is a kind of hope and faith.

Once you start applying math, things are different. Just as how probability is quite different when in the real world than it is on paper. what I am trying to say is that God-fearing people will have faith but God himself, as Creator, has a form of logic or else the whole entire universe would be in utter chaos. Not only that but God must be incredible smart also if he was able to not only create and maintain eco-systems. Even in simple eco-systems, there are many factors which still makes it hard for even humans to control.

Also, the Bible also has secrets in itself such as, I'm sure you heard, Bible codes. Also, in the Hebrew language, every letter has a numeric value. The first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is Alef which has a numeric value of 1. Bef is 2, Gimel is 3, Dalet is 4 and so forth. I think Greek letters also have numeric value.

There is even a Biblical numerology field.

 

[FireZ]

Also, the Hebrew letter aleph is used in mathematics to denote the different levels of infinity that exist.

 

[der Astronom]

Have you ever taken a math test that has a hard math question? If you've taken high levels of math, I'm sure that you would've placed down an answer hoping that it would be correct. Not all but for those complex question. That's having blind faith. If the test paper comes back with that particular question correct, you are over-joyed that you answered it correctly. If not, you are disappointed. So even when dealing with math, there is a kind of hope and faith.

Not really. When I do a math question, I never hope that I will get the question right. I just do what I can with it logically, and if I did it wrong, then either I've miscalculated a simple operation, or I've missed something. It has nothing to do with faith or hope. You could hope that you did it right or not, but it does not change the actual outcome. It's going to be the same regardless of what you hope for.

Once you start applying math, things are different. Just as how probability is quite different when in the real world than it is on paper. what I am trying to say is that God-fearing people will have faith but God himself, as Creator, has a form of logic or else the whole entire universe would be in utter chaos. Not only that but God must be incredible smart also if he was able to not only create and maintain eco-systems. Even in simple eco-systems, there are many factors which still makes it hard for even humans to control.

Understanding of the universe is not necessary for the universe itself to operate. Understanding of the universe is something we strive for because we may gain a valuable and useful insight of it. And maybe the universe is in chaos. And eco systems aren't perfect. They are things that are created by nature and if we consider all the eco systems on Earth out of all the possible eco systems that could exist in the solar system, you will see that there are very few of them that exist relatively. If a conscientious being were to have created these eco systems, they would be perfect, and there could be more of them. But there are not. And I can't see how this has anything to do with math.

Also, the Bible also has secrets in itself such as, I'm sure you heard, Bible codes. Also, in the Hebrew language, every letter has a numeric value. The first letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is Alef which has a numeric value of 1. Bef is 2, Gimel is 3, Dalet is 4 and so forth. I think Greek letters also have numeric value.

That's just like saying the first letter of the alphabet is A, the second is B, and the third is C. However, that doesn't correlate God with math.

There is even a Biblical numerology field.

If this has anything to do with the making up numbers from a random abstract of words taken from the bible which supposedly mean something, they are, in actuality, just meaningless jumbles of words put together for fun, and is purely sophistry at best.

 

[The Chosen Key]

I don't like that either, non-believers try 2 make u look stupid 4 mentioning His name. I sometimes get stuck.

 

[AddleBoy]

Not really. When I do a math question, I never hope that I will get the question right. I just do what I can with it logically, and if I did it wrong, then either I've miscalculated a simple operation, or I've missed something. It has nothing to do with faith or hope. You could hope that you did it right or not, but it does not change the actual outcome. It's going to be the same regardless of what you hope for.

that could also be applied to praying to god. Just because you pray and hope to god that something will or will not happen doesn't mean you will get what you hoped for.

 

[Juke]

I suppose the math problem on the test was a poor example. The eco-systems were off-topic.

No, you cannot even compare the American Alphabet to the Hebrew or Greek Alphabet. You may say that A is the first but A does not represent 1. In English, our Alphabet is independent and distinct from our numeric system. That is not so with the Hebrew and Greek letters and words. Words in the Hebrew and Greek language will have distinct meanings because of their numerical equivalent. Therefore, the meaning of that word will always be the same because numbers do not change their value.

Biblical numerology is heavily dependent on the numerical rendering of the words. As you may or may not know, the American Bible is just a translation and transliteration of its Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek originals. So all the texts in the originals could be looked upon as being all numbers. Strange way of looking at it but possible.

So its not just a bunch of mumbo jumbo that some people who having spare time spent a lot of time and effort on it. No human is ever that creative nor possess such foresight. The Bible was written by several people throughout a great span of time. In actuality, the Bible is a cannon of books bonded into one book. And because you could look at the entire Hebrew/Greek texts in numbers, you aren't actually making up numbers.

 

[der Astronom]

I suppose the math problem on the test was a poor example. The eco-systems were off-topic.

No, you cannot even compare the American Alphabet to the Hebrew or Greek Alphabet. You may say that A is the first but A does not represent 1. In English, our Alphabet is independent and distinct from our numeric system. That is not so with the Hebrew and Greek letters and words. Words in the Hebrew and Greek language will have distinct meanings because of their numerical equivalent. Therefore, the meaning of that word will always be the same because numbers do not change their value.

In some cases, you can say that A represents 1. When you look at an ordered list, you sometimes make a list that goes A), B), C), D), etc. and in this case, A is the first, B is the second, etc. You can actually replace this list with numbers, and they would mean exactly the same thing. It wouldn't change anything at all. However, the arabic numerals are simply more convenient to use because there are a finite number of letters in the alphabet, and most "alphabets" exclude zero, yet zero is an important number which is oddly ignored by most religions. Either way, there is only one meaning a number has, and its association with alphabets is irrelevant, and I cannot see what kind of bearing it has on math. You are not required to learn the Greek alphabet entirely to understand math; at most, they are just used as variables like pi, and Greek religion has nothing to do with monotheism or Christianity. In fact, you can replace pi with a different variable, and it wouldn't change anything, so long as the variable in question still has the same numerical value.

Biblical numerology is heavily dependent on the numerical rendering of the words. As you may or may not know, the American Bible is just a translation and transliteration of its Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek originals. So all the texts in the originals could be looked upon as being all numbers. Strange way of looking at it but possible.

Yes, but then that's not math, is it? Otherwise, please explain how it is math.

So its not just a bunch of mumbo jumbo that some people who having spare time spent a lot of time and effort on it. No human is ever that creative nor possess such foresight. The Bible was written by several people throughout a great span of time. In actuality, the Bible is a cannon of books bonded into one book. And because you could look at the entire Hebrew/Greek texts in numbers, you aren't actually making up numbers.

And how does that have anything to do with math? So you're reading a language that consists of numbers. Please explain how that has anything at all to do with math.

 

[Rasputin]

You know what? I honestly don't care if you make a hundred threads trying to trash religion, there's a little thing called the First Amendment in this country, and no amount of intolerance is going to make it disappear. The subject of this thread doesn't even make sense- addition, subtraction, etc. ARE math, while the Bible, Christian doctrine, etc. are NOT God. The mere existence of addition and subtraction proves that math exists, while the existence of the Bible proves nothing about God. It's as simple as that.

 

[Juke]

In the Hebrew alphabet and of course Greek but let's use the Hebrew alphabet, Aleph = 1 and 1 = Aleph. And Aleph is not a variable but also a number you can say. It cannot be said that same about the English Alphabet. When we look at A it does not equate with 1 nor is 1 equated with A. But like you pointed out, A is first then B is second. The is order and position. But even then, you could ask why is A first then B? You could also ask why is 1 before 2 and who decided that Aleph or 1 should be before Bet or 2?

Let me explain: In the translation of the Bible from the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek, these numbers are crucial in determining a proper translation. Since each word is a specific number, it only has a set range of possible definitions such as man. Now in Hebrew there are three words/numbers for man. The first if 120 which is just man, 376 which is man but more so along the lines as male, and 3206 which is a youthful man or a young man or even a boy.

But those are just simple examples. Sometimes to get a proper understanding of what was said, a person would use a concordance in conjunction with a lexicon. A word in English may have multiple meanings due to time. An example is a fagot. A fagot is a bundle but these days it is used offensively as a curse word. But in Hebrew, the meaning of a word is not lost but will always stay the same even over long spans of time due to having a numeric value.

 

[der Astronom]

In the Hebrew alphabet and of course Greek but let's use the Hebrew alphabet, Aleph = 1 and 1 = Aleph. And Aleph is not a variable but also a number you can say. It cannot be said that same about the English Alphabet. When we look at A it does not equate with 1 nor is 1 equated with A. But like you pointed out, A is first then B is second. The is order and position. But even then, you could ask why is A first then B? You could also ask why is 1 before 2 and who decided that Aleph or 1 should be before Bet or 2?

The alphabet is probably ordered by convention; otherwise, I wouldn't know, not being a linguist. However, linguistics has nothing much to do with mathematics. "1" comes before "2" because 1<2; we're not asking why a particular label comes before another; we are simply making an order based on the convention of value. But you can also order it backwards, depending on whether you want the largest number first or the smallest number first. I see you've also conveniently ignored zero. Again, in mathematics, there are more than 26 numbers that we deal with, so if you wish to suggest that aleph=1 and 1=aleph (which is unnecessary by the way, since they're equivalent), and there is a finite number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet, then they become meaningless or redundant in mathematics, since there won't be a Hebrew letter equivalent for numbers greater than the number the last letter represents. And also, this dismisses the concept of negative numbers, infinity and zero.

Let me explain: In the translation of the Bible from the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek, these numbers are crucial in determining a proper translation. Since each word is a specific number, it only has a set range of possible definitions such as man. Now in Hebrew there are three words/numbers for man. The first if 120 which is just man, 376 which is man but more so along the lines as male, and 3206 which is a youthful man or a young man or even a boy.

And what do these words have to do with math? 120 is just a value in math; it is not assigned to a word and it would not be wrong to not assign a word to it.

But those are just simple examples. Sometimes to get a proper understanding of what was said, a person would use a concordance in conjunction with a lexicon. A word in English may have multiple meanings due to time. An example is a fagot. A fagot is a bundle but these days it is used offensively as a curse word. But in Hebrew, the meaning of a word is not lost but will always stay the same even over long spans of time due to having a numeric value.

You're speaking of linguistics, not math.

 

[Taylor Swift]

In my absence here, I joined another forum. In their debate section, this exact thread was created. I found it very interesting and I'd love to hear what you all think.

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When people say to prove that God exists, but without using the Bible, Christian Views or the Church, it's impossible.

In the same manner, if you ask to prove that maths exists without addition, subtraction, multiplication or division, it cannot be done.

The point: by taking away the things that CAN prove that God exists, it is impossible. So, to symbolise this, maths has been used. Maths winds down to those four terms, so if you take away the its proof if existance, it's logical to conclude that if God can't be proven, then neither can Maths, right?

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I personally don't agree with this and I'll post why, once I have something to argue with. Arguing with yourself is no fun

This is not true we have document from rome that prove that Jesus was real and they also say that he did all the miracles the bible says