FFVII: LTD Debate Thread

[Rydia]

I think Crisis Core tied perfectly with the original game, some things make more sense after playing it(Aerith denial being the most important of them).
I think it obviously canon while Maiden it's not.

Crisis Core was just to whore out Zack... who played such a minor role in the original game. (So much that I had forgotten about him and wondered who the heck he was when I first saw AC)

And if you want to take any of the compilation into consideration, you have to take it ALL and not just pick and choose. Like it or not Maiden was approved for publishing.

The compilation was also written in such a way that it could be interpreted into either fanbases favor.

 

[Cloti]

you got a point, but the fact that "Maiden" wasn't written by the original staff and it`s absent from the official media(10th anniversary ultimania and crisis core ultimania) makes you think.
Every other piece of the compilation(including Last Order which conflicted quite a bit with the original story) have been acknowledged, Maiden hasn't made an appearance since it was published in the 2005 Ultimania, sounds like retcon for me.

 

[Rydia]

you got a point, but the fact that "Maiden" wasn't written by the original staff and it`s absent from the official media(10th anniversary ultimania and crisis core ultimania) makes you think.
Every other piece of the compilation(including Last Order which conflicted quite a bit with the original story) have been acknowledged, Maiden hasn't made an appearance since it was published in the 2005 Ultimania, sounds like retcon for me.

But it was still approved. It doesn't matter who wrote it, if Square approved it then it has to be taken into account.

And then there is references to Cloud and Aerith in other FF games, such as Final Fantasy IX and tactics. Sure they are not to be taken literally with the acutal game, but they are hommages nonetheless.

 

[Vauel-Faur]

But it was still approved. It doesn't matter who wrote it, if Square approved it then it has to be taken into account.

And then there is references to Cloud and Aerith in other FF games, such as Final Fantasy IX and tactics. Sure they are not to be taken literally with the acutal game, but they are hommages nonetheless.

References in IX? Please do point these out.

 

[Rydia]

References in IX? Please do point these out.

There is a scene where a soldier from Alexandria? walks up to a girl selling flowers and says, "A flower girl in the villiage!" Or something along those lines. I think it was meant to reference the first meeting of Cloud and Aerith in FFVII.

 

[Fusionist]

@Rydia: I think that FFIX scene is too ambiguous, but it's true that there was a scene of Aerith and Cloud in FFT, if you recruit Cloud, and you do meet Aerith once while traveling between towns or something *shrugs*

Ack, okay, now I'm confused about Maiden of Planet. Someone mentioned that it was just something that was basically done up by a fan separate from the FFVII staff, so in a way it was published fanfiction, but if it's canon, then Crisis Core kind of screwed up the story between Aerith and Zack relationship by making them lovey dovey where as the novel there was distance on Aerith's part, but then if Square is endorsing it, is it suppose be taken into account

So confusing

*ish a Cloti and Zerith fan nonetheless*

 

[Cloti]

as I said earlier Maiden was written by a non-member of the Square-Enix staff, he himself has acknowledged that the novella was an "original interpretation of the story" and wasn`t written with any guidance from Square Enix, it was a fanfiction practically.
So, many doesn't consider it canon anymore, not Only it contradicts stablished canon(Dirge of Cerberus for example) but it also offers wrong interpretations of the characters.

 

[Vauel-Faur]

as I said earlier Maiden was written by a non-member of the Square-Enix staff, he himself has acknowledged that the novella was an "original interpretation of the story" and wasn`t written with any guidance from Square Enix, it was a fanfiction practically.
So many doesn't consider canon anymore, not Only it contradicts stablished canon(Dirge of Cerberus for example) but it also offers wrong interpretations of the characters.

Ah. Sounds about right to me.

Fusionist: I agree, that is too ambiguous. :/ Maybe a flower girl is just a flower girl. Is every black guy suddenly Barret? Is every non-human Nanaki?

 

[Rydia]

It was a reference nonetheless. (As everyone knows, IX is full of them as a major point of the game was to reference past FF games)

Yes but a lot of the compilation contradicts the original game. Really the entire compilation is fanservice.

Serioulsy, why is Cloud still depressed in AC after it was made clear that he was over it at the end of the game?

Why is Sephiroth suddenly extremely powerful in AC when Cloud easliy took him out at the end of FFVII?

Why is Rufus still alive?

What happened to the real and false theme that was important in the game?
There is also the theory that Tifa is a link to Cloud's past while Aerith is a link to Cloud's present.

Serioulsy, if you want to prove which couple is canon (and I personally don't believe either were meant to be and it was up to the player to decide for themself) you need to look at the actual game.

I read an essay that really looks at the mythology of FFVII very much in depth. The article is very long but it you want to read about the love triangle (which the author points out is very important to the game) read towards the bottom. (Last two to three paragraphs, might as well start with the explanation of the Golden Saucer play)

http://www.angelfire.com/yt2/zforce6455/lit/ff7.html

There is enough arguements to say that Cloud loved either Tifa or Aerith. In the original game, if you go by the mythology, the love triangle is not meant to be answered.

 

[Cloti]

yeah, if we analyze the triangle based on the entire compilation, Cloud and Tifa are the real couple.
If we base it in the game alone, the triangle is more ambiguous but I think it still point towards Cloud and Tifa.
Most of the game display of affection for Aerith are up to the player(choose to make Cloud jealous of Zack for example) except two: Aerith death(which is a dramatic reaction but it doesn't nesesarily imply love), and the conversation in the Cosmo Candle when Cloud said to Aerith:"But I..we are here for you" this last conversation is one of the Clerith strongest points, but it's again, ambiguous. Many think it can be Cloud covering his feelings up, another interpration says that Cloud want to let Aerith know that not only he is with her, but the whole party also.

With Tifa we have optional dialogue but also important scenes not up to the player.
when Cloud says to Tifa:"It doesn't matter what anyone says to me it's your attitude that counts"(very revealing to me), when he apologizes to her, and again singles her up: "...Sorry." (He faces Tifa.) "Especially you, miss Tifa. I'm really sorry.You've been so good to me...... I don't know what to say..." "I never lived up to being 'Cloud'." Tifa... Maybe one day you'll meet the real 'Cloud'."
We also have the important lifestream sequence, when Cloud reveal his feeling to Tifa. His whole self revolved around her, what more can be said about it?
we also have the highwind event(I know there are two versions, but the version that tie the most with the rest of the events is the high affection one) Cloud says:
"Hey, Tifa...... I...... There are a lot of things I wanted to talk to you about,But now that we're together like this, I don't know what I really wanted to say.. I guess nothing's changed at all... Kind of makes you want to laugh"(nothings has changed, again very revealing)
the Tifa says her famous "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking".
the creators stated in the Ultimania that the scene was "risqué"(suggestive of sexual impropriety) and that the original version had Tifa, exiting the chocobo stable looking around and fixing her skirt(I am not saying they had sex but it`s heavily implied)
the ultimania also says, that Cloud and Tifa reveal their feelings for each other in the lifestream and CONFIRM this feelings under the highwind.
I know many will go and try to debunk this facts but again, even if many people don't see them as a "romantic" they are more heavy than the entire Clerith interaction.

PD: english is not my primary language I hope you don't have trouble understanding my post.

@Rydia: I loved that essay I remember to have readed it ages ago.It's a valid point but I still think the intent was Cloud and Tifa.

 

[Rydia]

Concepts are concepts though. In the end they went with the Highwind scene. (Which changes depending on how you treat Tifa during the game.) So in the end it's up to the player to decide.

And then we have the final line "The promise land... I think I can meet her there."

Plus there is also the official art featuring Cloud and Aerith. (The sound track cover has Cloud and Aerith on it sitting together in a flower field.)

All I say is, enjoy the couple you like and don't worry so much about which is canon. Because in reality, there is not supposed to be a canon couple.

 

[Cloti]

I love to argue I guess...
the ending line is a strong point, but the compilation completely negate it by have Cloud state he wants a life with Tifa(he did not search for Aerith or something like that) also the original japanese translation is a little different, Cloud does not say "her" rather he only speaks about the promised land and the "answer from the planet"
If we talk about the art then TerraxLocke SquallxSelphie TidusxRikku and all of these pairings that have appeared in Amano art would be canon, Aerith and Cloud appear together because they were the first invented characters.
I really think that the Cloti thing was not something that the compilation sealed out of nowhere, the hints from the pairing came from the game itself.
As I said earlier the points I brought up in my previous post are far more revealing than a few lines and the game art.

 

[Rydia]

I love to argue I guess...
the ending line is a strong point, but the compilation completely negate it by have Cloud state he wants a life with Tifa(he did not search for Aerith or something like that) also the original japanese translation is a little different, Cloud does not say "her" rather he only speaks about the promised land and the "answer from the planet"
If we talk about the art then TerraxLocke SquallxSelphie TidusxRikku and all of these pairings that have appeared in Amano art would be canon, Aerith and Cloud appear together because they were the first invented characters.
I really think that the Cloti thing was not something that the compilation sealed out of nowhere, the hints from the pairing came from the game itself.
As I said earlier the points I brought up in my previous post are far more revealing than a few lines and the game art.

The original art of Cloud and Aerith was used on various FFVII products though. (Sound track booklet being a big one)

The makers of the game translated the game itself. I know that there were some mistranslations along the way, but adding the word "her" would be pretty major. And those lines were still spoken after Cloud was reaching up for Aerith's hand. And if you go by the interpretation that I linked, it was meant to symbolize that Cloud could keep Aerith alive in his heart, by going to that promised land.

In One Way To Smile, he leaves Tifa at the end to go live in Aerith's church. That sure is a funny way to show someone you love them, especially after saying that you want to start a life with them. If anythign, that shows that their new life together wasn't going to work out. And don't give me the whole "But he had the jenova disease! He didn't want Tifa to worry!" Because seriously, how the heck was that not supposed to worry her?

The compilation itself was written so that it could be translated as either Clerith or Cloti. If it weren't, it would have blatantly stated that Cloud and Tifa were married or would have shown them behaving like a couple. I think this was done intentionally so that the LTD would be kept alive and so that the end of the game wouldn't be f'd up.

 

[Cloti]

Cloud lived in Aerith church for only 2 days acording to the Ultimania, that means he lived with Tifa 758 days after the end of the Game.
Nomura himself stated that "the happier that Cloud get the guiltier he becomes" he doesn't feel he deserve the "happy" life he is leading with Tifa and the kids.Also he doesn't feel he can protect them.
Kingdom Hearts II(I know it's AU, but the events there mirror those of the game and movie)Sephiroth state that's"Cloud is running away because the light of the present is too much", when Tifa appears he blinds Cloud with her light.The creators mentioned that they made "Cloud chasing after Sephiroth but also being chased by someone himself they made him run from something "warm" that was Tifa after AC"
this mirror the events of the movie, Cloud runs away of what makes him happy, that something "warm" as they stated.
What Cloud feels about Aerith death is nothing more than guilt, same as Zack.
He returns to Tifa in the end and they return to their happy life, he is free from the guilt(directly stated also and seen in Dirge of Cerberus).
And I think that Tifa being refered as a Koibito(a person in a mutual romantic relationship, and that's the word, don't try to translate it wrongly. Some clerith twist the word as they please, in my japanese to english dictionary it appears as:lover,girlfriend in my japanese to spanish dictionary appears:novio/a en una relación seria"boyfriend,girlfriend in a serious relationship") is enough confirmation of their relationship.
About the final line, Cloud said he "could meet her" Tifa is the one who express intent"Let's go meet her", then they leave and go meet her(Case of Tifa) doesn't scream romance to me.As I said earlier he doesn't even specify if the meeting is with a who or a what, much less a female in the japanese version.

 

[Aerina]

you got a point, but the fact that "Maiden" wasn't written by the original staff and it`s absent from the official media(10th anniversary ultimania and crisis core ultimania) makes you think.
Every other piece of the compilation(including Last Order which conflicted quite a bit with the original story) have been acknowledged, Maiden hasn't made an appearance since it was published in the 2005 Ultimania, sounds like retcon for me.

It dosn't matter that it wasn't written by the original staff, the guy who wrote it was writing it under Square-Enix's supervision, meaning that anything they didn't like wasn't included. The book it was published in is listed under the FFVII Compilation on SE offical website, meaning that they indeed class it as canon.

I agree with what Rydia has said about the LT being open for interpretation for each player. However, I feel that their is more reason to belive that Cleris is the true couple, such as Aeris being the default date, the infamous "I think I can meet her...there." line and Amano's offical artwork showing Cloud & Aeris together quite frequently. Also don't forget, originally only Cloud, Aeris and Barret were going to be in VII, Tifa wasn't created back then.

 

[Cloti]

Cloud Barret and Aerith was a concept that was scraped later, no proof at all.
seriously what bothers me the most about the cleris supporters is their lack of proof, and by proof I mean facts, not some fanfiction,art or AU
I want interaction. Has Cloud said that Aerith attitude is the only one that counts for him? that he wants to start a new life with her? has Cloud heart called out to Aerith?
have they revealed their mutual feelings for each other?
all of the questions above are answered with a simple no.
if all of the things above would have Aerith involved I can guess the Clerith reaction would be different and they would use it as proof.
Well, this is normal I guess it remind me of Avatar and Harry Potter shipping wars.
Even though canon is stablished there are still people who refuse to accept it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It dosn't matter that it wasn't written by the original staff, the guy who wrote it was writing it under Square-Enix's supervision, meaning that anything they didn't like wasn't included. The book it was published in is listed under the FFVII Compilation on SE offical website, meaning that they indeed class it as canon.

Which explains why Benny Matsuyama has said he WASN'T supervised while writing it, why they have subsequently ignored and contravened statements from the novella in Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core, the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, and Crisis Core Ultimanias? Why it got no mention in anyone's timeline, not even Aerith's, and why SE saw fit to make it the only thing not to be mentioned in the 10th Anniversary Ulti, when every other bit that could be included, could. It is novella non grata, and even were it not, it hurts rather than helps a C/A argument.

I agree with what Rydia has said about the LT being open for interpretation for each player. However, I feel that their is more reason to belive that Cleris is the true couple, such as Aeris being the default date,

On the other hand, Tifa's is the only date sequence actually interrupted by fireworks, the music of the scene (The same music is used for her Ergheiz appearance as well). But if we play the default game, High highwind scene is default. Yes, even if you get the Aerith date.

the infamous "I think I can meet her...there." line

Which expresses no intent, and is actuall a bit of a bungle of the original intent of the line, which has no 'her' included, and which dismantling tells us is about meeting fallen comrades in the event that the planet's answer is 'no'.

and Amano's offical artwork showing Cloud & Aeris together quite frequently. Also don't forget, originally only Cloud, Aeris and Barret were going to be in VII, Tifa wasn't created back then.

Pssst... That's when Amano's designs are from. Then they decided to CHANGE things, and give Aerith's role to Tifa and give Aerith a new role. So if you're trying to argue that Amano's art decides couples (it doesn't. Cloud and Red and Aerith and Sephy got featured as well), remember that it comes from before they completely changed the story and Aerith's character.

 

[Aerina]

I think judging by the fact that Aerith's conscience lives on through Cloud in AC is evidence enough that their is obviously some sort of connection between the two of them. I don't see how you can say how "canon is stabilised" when neither pairing has been actually confirmed by Square Enix. Like I said, it is open to interpretation, but I think that Cleris heavily outways the Cloti.
Take for example Nibelheim, when Tifa gets slashed by Sephiroth and falls down the stairs. Considering Cloud joins the army for her, you would think he would have a bigger reaction than picking her up and moving her to the side of the room, wouldn't you? Whereas when Aeris dies, we see Cloud have a scene of emotional outburst, even though he has known Aeris for the lesser time and it was confirmed that he originally had a crush on Tifa before the Nibelheim scene.
I know that everyone has their own opinion and no-one is going to change their mind due to what people are saying, but still, it's fun taking part in abit of harmless debating

 

[Vauel-Faur]

Okay, this has been bothering me since I first saw this thread: What does LTD stand for? >_>;

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think judging by the fact that Aerith's conscience lives on through Cloud in AC is evidence enough that their is obviously some sort of connection between the two of them.

And between Aerith and Tifa. And between her and Marlene. And Kadaj. And the children of edge. It's not a romantic connection. The examples Nomura uses to explain this connection are a grandmother and her grandchildren and how his own children will keep him alive in their memories after he passes on.

I don't see how you can say how "canon is stabilised" when neither pairing has been actually confirmed by Square Enix. Like I said, it is open to interpretation, but I think that Cleris heavily outways the Cloti.

So, without a press conference, we cannot conclude that any pairing in any FF is valid?

Take for example Nibelheim, when Tifa gets slashed by Sephiroth and falls down the stairs. Considering Cloud joins the army for her, you would think he would have a bigger reaction than picking her up and moving her to the side of the room, wouldn't you?

How about cradling her head and gently stroking her face? Because that's what he does.

Whereas when Aeris dies, we see Cloud have a scene of emotional outburst, even though he has known Aeris for the lesser time and it was confirmed that he originally had a crush on Tifa before the Nibelheim scene.

An outburst of rage at Sephiroth, yes. But on the other hand, did you see the outburst when Zack died? True love, man. True love.

I know that everyone has their own opinion and no-one is going to change their mind due to what people are saying, but still, it's fun taking part in abit of harmless debating

It's more fun when the same tired and tossed out arguments aren't being repeated ad nauseum. And yes people are going to change their mind. They are the lurkers. When you enter a debate with the expectation of changing the mind of the person or persons you debate, you miss the point entirely.
Addendum: LTD- Love Triangle Debate.