FFVII: LTD Debate Thread

[Dragon Mage]

Cloud seems to be able to express his true feelings to Aerith

I post here because I literally have no where else to post. And my connection is being a serious asshat.

Note: Men always have a hard time speaking about what they're 'feeling' to anyone, but easier with girls. (Many have confessed this) Actually, Aerith's comment implies that he was a good boy for finally working up the courage to face her. Doesn't mean he expresses himself to her easily--it was actually quite difficault.


Good lord, I have to find a political thread to debate on or something. I'm WAY too bored if I'm posting HERE again!!!!

*dies of boredom*

 

[Belwicket]

I prefer Cloud and Aeris. In my opinion they shared more feelings during the game and the movie than with Tifa. Even though Cloud never stated thet he loved one or the other I think he does have feelings for Aeris.

 

[Vauel-Faur]

I'm gonna say this so all will know it without any doubt.

THEY WERE NEVER CHILDHOOD FRIENDS.

Cloud is an introvert; doesn't do to well with others, and prefers it that way. Since Tifa was always surrounded by other kids, as she was popular (?), he never really got a chance to get close to her. Even Tifa says "That's right...We lived right next to each other but I didn't really know you that well." (Or something to that effect) No, they were never childhood friends, and any statement claiming such is wrong. (not to be rude, but it is)

I'm not going to disagree with this statement, (and I'm sorry if what I'm about to post has already been said, but admittedly, that's a lot of text to read through ._.) but here's something else Tifa said in the Lifestream:

But... It's true that we weren't THAT, close, but... After you left town, I really thought about you a lot. I used to wonder how Cloud was doing. I wonder if Cloud was able to get into SOLDIER? I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an article about you.
​

And there's also the fact that Tifa agreed to meet him at the well, even though they weren't close at all. So while they weren't childhood friends, it's obvious from the above evidence--combined with everything Cloud says in the Lifestream, especially the line " ......a sealed up secret...... wish...... Tender memories......no one can ever know........."--that they did have a fondness for each other. You know the saying "Absence makes the heart grow fonder?" I think this is true in their case, because once Cloud was back in her life, she developed feelings for him. (For anyone who got Tifa for the Gold Saucer date:

Tifa: "Ok, I'm going to just go ahead and say it... [...] Aeris would be able to just come out and say it, probably. Cloud...? Sometimes being old friends is hard. I mean, timing is everything. [...] Cloud...? I...... ............ .................."
[...]
Cloud: "By the way, What did you want to say a minute ago?"
Tifa: "N, nothing! Nothing..."
Cloud: "?"
Tifa: "Oh, look at the time. We should be getting back."
​

I think it speaks for itself, really.)

 

[Cloti]

I think it's really Cloud and Tifa, the compilation proved it in a lot of ways(case of Tifa,their interaction in the movie,the creators statements all pointing towards cloti)
and after playing crisis core, I am quite happy with the outcome. Zeris is one of the cutest couples ever. That's why I don't consider Maiden canon, not only it contradicts a lot from other games(dirge of cerberus and crisis core) but also negates her relationship with Zack! ,after seeing their interaction, how could anyone say they were not in love? Aerith reaction in "Maiden" it's so cold, not true to their relationship at all.

It`s just me or I think there is not much of a LTD anymore? before the discussions were so heated, now I think, a consensus has finally been reached.

 

[Stella]

I agree with you 100% Cloti! In fact, I said pretty much the same thing you did a few months back-

I totally see why you would think that Maiden proves the CloudXAerith pairing, but it actually does not, for several reasons. First of all, Maiden was written and published solely to appease Aerith fans. It was entertainment, as someone once told me. It was included in the FF7 Omega Ultimania book only to make fans feel more nostalgic for FF7. On top of that, it was written by an outside author who put Numerous continuity errors in it. Certain things he put in the story contradict what the FF7 Ultimania says, which was written by the creators themselves. Basically, Maiden was written for fun and is not considered a part of the Compilation. It is simply not canon.

You may say, how can they approve of it if it's not right? A prime example of how is Last Order. The creators purposely changed up what happend to explore different outcomes and have fun. It is not the true events of what happened in Nilbenheim, even though it was created by the FF7 staff. Just because it is approved of does not make it canon.

Another reason you can not take Maiden seriously is the fact that it contradicts what Aerith says and how she acts in CC. She clearly shows how she feels about Zack in Crisis Core, and Maiden contradicts that. You tell me which one we can CLEARLY take more seriously: Crisis Core, made by the FF7 staff, or Maiden, written by an outside author.

Thirdly, Maiden in itself is actually very Cloti. We see Aerith hung up over the fact that she cannot be with Cloud anymore. Then, she goes on a journey of self- discovery and realizes several things: a)Cloud is not the person she thought she fell in love with, & b) She realizes Clouds heart is and has always been with Tifa, and she accepts it, even blesses it. She changes from a person going after their own wants, to a person moving on and realizing she has more important things to worry about, such as the needs of the Planet. Aerith still does indeed care about Cloud, but she moves on and realizes her place is where she is.

After all that, I'm sure people still do not believe me, so I will present you with the facts, straight up. The canon pairing has already been decided, and it is CloudxTifa. The game allows you to choose up to a certain point which person you want Cloud to be with, but when Cloud becomes himself again, he chooses. He sleeps with Tifa under the highwind in FF7, he DIRECTLY states in COT that he wants to start a life with her, they raise two children together in Advent Children, he leaves her only out of guilt for his past sins and the fear that he will lose her, and he is still with her in DOC. The creators have confirmed all of this, as does the FF7 Ultimania. Until someone can put fourth SOLID evidence that Cloud ever had feelings for Aerith, and can find away around all of the canon facts, that is the way it is.

To sum that all up, Maiden was bs

As for the LTD, it's pretty much non-existent now. Crisis Core showed just how deep Zack and Aerith's feelings were for one another, as well as just how much Cloud cared for Tifa and vice versa. People can't make good arguments anymore now that the specifics of both relationships have been showed. There's no more speculation because the facts show that its Cloti and Zerith, end of story.

 

[Cloti]

I loved your post, we really agree 100%.
I am satisfied with the end of the LTD, many people fought so much about it, it divided the Final Fantasy VII fanbase.
I always thought the LTD was originated by Tifa/Aerith fans who wanted a happy ending for their favorite heroine, I include myself into this, I've always prefered Tifa, I really wanted to see her happy, hating Aerith to the limit(mainly because of the clerith arguments, I never thought cleris was a posibility I never saw romance there,only friendship) Now I am more mature. I learnt to not get mad over a fictional videogame pairing, but I can't deny I am happy with the outcome(Cloti is my username after all).
And I really learnt to like Aerith, my hatred for the pairing blinded me, she is a great character(I'll always prefer Tifa though)

 

[Dionysos]

I agree with FlagsofDawn and other posters who believe that Tifa and Cloud were hiding something from each other.
Cloud and Tifa may have not been close childhood freinds, but they stilll grew up together.
Cloud was an introvert. He didn't communicate much with other kids his age. That doesn't mean he didn't like Tifa, as he said he always wanted to play with her and get to know her. On the other side Tifa was very popular, had all the friends she could ask for and was pretty secure in the social side of things (from her looks more than her confidence, perhaps).
She was possibly a bit unsure of Cloud, unsure what he was like, what he liked and who he was, but I think she was interested. She was probably very pleased that Cloud asked her to go to the well, as it was a chance to notice him and get to know him better.
Cloud joined Soldier (well.. he didn't, he joined simple Shinra forces...) it was to impress Tifa. To show her what he was made of and that shy lads have worth as well as the confident big lads who pick girls up all the time. Tifa obviously cared a bit for Cloud at this point as well, asking him to be her hero if she were "in a bind", and then checking the news on him for years to follow. She respected that he had the guts to try and show himself when the other boys got normal jobs.

Hmmm... I begin to understand Cloud the more I think about this... In some ways he's a lot like me. Introverted, often doesn't say a word to anyone unless he knows them well, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care. He just doesn't know how to show it, what to say etc. (Perhaps I need to get my memories mixed up with an Iraqi war hero to give my own confidence a boost!)

I've always seen something for Tifa and Cloud... But Cloud became too obsessed with Aerith during the game, sadly not realising what Tifa had, and always had, to offer him. Aerith belonged to Zack really. Perhaps a part of Zacks personality that liked Aeriths was somehow printed on to him which made him like her a bit too? And Aerith in return? Now that he has his memory back, I think slowly once the confusion fades, he will start to see his life for what it is, and begin to notice Tifa, who obviously craves for him.

 

[Vauel-Faur]

Cloud joined Soldier (well.. he didn't, he joined simple Shinra forces...) it was to impress Tifa.

Indeed:

Cloud: ......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed. I thought if​

I got stronger I could get someone to notice......​

Tifa: Someone to notice you...? ......who?​

Cloud: (Who.........? ......You know who! ......You, that's who.)​

The fact that he said "You know who!" makes it seem like Tifa was slow for not noticing how obsessed he was with her. Which she kinda was. Teehee.

 

[Dragon Mage]

I think it speaks for itself, really.)

Preaching to the choir, my good man! I'm with ya'll 150%!

 

[Bambi]

Indeed:

Cloud: ......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed. I thought if​

I got stronger I could get someone to notice......​

Tifa: Someone to notice you...? ......who?​

Cloud: (Who.........? ......You know who! ......You, that's who.)​

The fact that he said "You know who!" makes it seem like Tifa was slow for not noticing how obsessed he was with her. Which she kinda was. Teehee.

WAS being the key word

I do believe he DID like her, it as much as said in the game and as kindly pointed out there, but after everything that happened (And 4 years is a long time) he just didnt seem interested in her anymore......well, I guess that partly depends on the choices youi choose at various stages..... I also believe those 4 years are adequate time to get over Zack. Cloud asks if it was serious, to which Arith replies No, but I liked him for a while

Yeah Cloud joined SOLDIER (well, tried) to impress Tifa at the time, but after being f***ed up in that tank I think that was the LAST thing on his mind once he (kinda) got his sanity back

I don't think Crisis Core can be taken into account seeing as its not canon, someone pointed out way back that Maiden can't count either because of that. So Im pulling the same thing

Clerith all the way

small font is small

 

[Vauel-Faur]

WAS being the key word

I do believe he DID like her, it as much as said in the game and as kindly pointed out there, but after everything that happened (And 4 years is a long time) he just didnt seem interested in her anymore......well, I guess that partly depends on the choices youi choose at various stages..... I also believe those 4 years are adequate time to get over Zack. Cloud asks if it was serious, to which Arith replies No, but I liked him for a while

Yeah Cloud joined SOLDIER (well, tried) to impress Tifa at the time, but after being f***ed up in that tank I think that was the LAST thing on his mind once he (kinda) got his sanity back

I don't think Crisis Core can be taken into account seeing as its not canon, someone pointed out way back that Maiden can't count either because of that. So Im pulling the same thing

Clerith all the way

small font is small

But where does it ever indicate that Cloud reciprocates Aerith's attraction to him? He's upset when she dies, sure, but that's because they become good friends in a short time. He shows no particular favor toward her that I can recall.

We do know, however, that he at least liked Tifa at some point. That's more solid than "Well, he may or may not have liked Aerith toward the end, but we're not sure" or something similar.

And anyway, I don't see why this whole debate matters, since Aerith is dead and Cloud doesn't strike me as a necrophiliac. o_o

Also, it's possible he loved neither. Why does no one else seem to consider this possibility? >_>;

 

[Bambi]

That is also a possibility

And I see your point with the whole 'she's dead thing' but IMO I liek to think that he would of hooked up with Aerith had she not snuffed it. But again, that's just my opinion

Although him having used to like Tifa has no bearing on it at all I don't think, I used to like people I positively detest now, not to say that he detests Tifa but uh, you get my point

 

[Vauel-Faur]

That is also a possibility

And I see your point with the whole 'she's dead thing' but IMO I liek to think that he would of hooked up with Aerith had she not snuffed it. But again, that's just my opinion

Although him having used to like Tifa has no bearing on it at all I don't think, I used to like people I positively detest now, not to say that he detests Tifa but uh, you get my point

Well, maybe you and I just function a little differently, but in my case I develop soft spots for particular people. There's one guy in particular that I know whom I've always thought fondly of, even when I didn't necessarily "like" him, and it's possible Cloud and Tifa turned out that exact way. Notice how they always refer to each other as "childhood friends" before they recall the truth. Why else would they say that if they didn't at least want it to be true? Something in their minds causes them to want that deeper bond, or else they would have thought at some point, "Were we really that good of friends? I don't remember it that way."

 

[Cloti]

I don't think there was anything between Aerith and Cloud, it was obvious she was in love with Zack and never got over him.
Cloud on the other side was not interested on anyone in disc 1 he is too messed up. But after he regain his true-self , he remembers how important Tifa is to him, his childhood feelings never changed.
I don't think the relationship between Cloud and Aerith would have worked but that`s just me.

 

[Stella]

I don't think Crisis Core can be taken into account seeing as its not canon, someone pointed out way back that Maiden can't count either because of that. So Im pulling the same thing

How is Crisis Core not Canon? lol

As for the whole Cloud not seeming to care about Tifa when he returns thing, you guys have to remember that he was under the influence of Jenova when he sees her again. He doesn't regain control of himself fully until after Aerith's death and his fall into the lifestream. As I recall, once he's back to the "real" Cloud, he's all about Tifa again ^^

As for Aerith, she wasn't exactly the best mentally at the time she meets Cloud either. Despite the fact that she had clearly felt Zack return to the lifestream, she tells Cloud he must have run off with some other girl because he was always such a flirt. Poor Aerith was clearly in denial. And despite the fact that she wrote their relationship off as nothing serious, the 89 letters she wrote to him and her reason for wearing pink seem to show that she felt otherwise about their relationship.

And, as previously mentioned, it is not shown anywhere in the game that Cloud had any romantic feelings for Aerith, whereas we know he had a huge crush on Tifa in their younger years, not to mention that he directly states in COT that he wants to start a life with her. That's really all the proof you need right there.

 

[Rydia]

How is Crisis Core not Canon? lol

As for the whole Cloud not seeming to care about Tifa when he returns thing, you guys have to remember that he was under the influence of Jenova when he sees her again. He doesn't regain control of himself fully until after Aerith's death and his fall into the lifestream. As I recall, once he's back to the "real" Cloud, he's all about Tifa again ^^

As for Aerith, she wasn't exactly the best mentally at the time she meets Cloud either. Despite the fact that she had clearly felt Zack return to the lifestream, she tells Cloud he must have run off with some other girl because he was always such a flirt. Poor Aerith was clearly in denial. And despite the fact that she wrote their relationship off as nothing serious, the 89 letters she wrote to him and her reason for wearing pink seem to show that she felt otherwise about their relationship.

And, as previously mentioned, it is not shown anywhere in the game that Cloud had any romantic feelings for Aerith, whereas we know he had a huge crush on Tifa in their younger years, not to mention that he directly states in COT that he wants to start a life with her. That's really all the proof you need right there.

The problem is the compilation really ruined the game and is quite poorly written. Before Advent Children, we were left wondering whether humanity even survived after holy was activated. So anything that can be proven about who the "true" couple should come from the game inself and not all this nonsense that squenix is using to whore out the success of the game. The compilation itself is inconsistent with the original game.

There is always the line "I think I can meet her there"

We don't know quite what that means. Is it Cloud's confirmation that he loved Aerith? Or did Cloud have a realization that holy was going to pull humanity back into the life stream.

But unfortunantly Squeenix looks like they are going for the nicely wrapped up happy ending so all the kiddies that get into this game don't whine that they are confused.

 

[Bambi]

How is Crisis Core not Canon? lol

I just think because it was after the game, thats all, everything tht they did in it was influenced from the main game......like Zack falling through the church roof. Dunno where they pulled that fool Hollander and co from though....

anyway, this topic pecks my head so Im leaving now

All Im saying on the matter is I'm just a Clerith and Clotis won't ever agree with me, haha

Toodlebye

 

[Vauel-Faur]

I just think because it was after the game, thats all, everything tht they did in it was influenced from the main game......like Zack falling through the church roof.

Or maybe that was meant to have happened all along.

 

[Cloti]

I think Crisis Core tied perfectly with the original game, some things make more sense after playing it(Aerith denial being the most important of them).
I think it obviously canon while Maiden it's not.

 

[Dionysos]

All Im saying on the matter is I'm just a Clerith and Clotis won't ever agree with me, haha

Toodlebye

Be gone Clerith! Shoo! (Joke).

Well I think that, for a while Cloud may have liked Aerith. He may have became a little bit obsessed with her, much for the same reasons Zack was. But I also think that this was because part of Zacks personality had rubbed off on Cloud... Not entirely, as Cloud still distanced himself, but he was a lot more confident at the begining of FF7, clinging on to the belief that he was an Ex-Soldier First Class. So I also think that perhaps Zack's taste of women rubbed off on him too? Or perhaps that with more confidence, Cloud was more noticed? And Aerith saw in him what Zack was, and so acted how she did when she pulled Zack?

Bit of a crazy thought I know, but really if you're naturally shy and insecure, if a woman is attracted to you, or at least comes over and talks to you, it is easy to become infatuated with them. So my theory is that Aerith saw in Cloud what she saw in Zack (she even says they had the same look in their eyes and seems to compare him to Zack), and perhaps took a bit of an interest in him. In return Cloud took a little bit of an interest in her (well, you would if someone spoke to you a lot like that). Was it love? Probably not. It was probably confused and mixed emotions... Cloud probably wasn't sure how to act in this situation whereas Zack was much more open and was able to establish a relationship with Aerith much quicker. Tifa said to Cloud that Aerith could "probably just say it", showing that Tifa is a little bit shy as well, and hence why she'd be less noticed with Aerith twirling her ribbons around her finger at Cloud...

But... With Aerith dead, while Cloud is obviously upset I think he'll get over it. He'll move back on to his childhood liking, Tifa. The girl he left home for. The girl he wanted to impress. The girl who waited for him, and is still obviously very interested in him. The girl that, really, I think Cloud actually loves. But Cloud is a very insecure person. It will take him a long time to realise this, but one day he may. It will take him a long time to come to terms with everything that happened at Nibelheim, the fact that he's been carrying false memories for so long, his burst of insanity, Sephiroth controlling him, the fact that he's shy and insecure anyway... It all builds up and shows Cloud as a very complicated character with his feelings all over the place...

A little note about canon... I think officially Crisis Core is considered canon to the story of the FF7 universe, as is all FF7 media (including Maiden of the Planet, or whatever it is you were refering to).

I think though, canon is whatever people want to think is canon... For example people would generally consider what happened in the Star Wars movies as canon, but not the novels, comics or games.

If any elements of Crisis Core conflict with the FF7 game, then it is non-canon. It is contradicting the original story, and should not be beleived.. For me that means I don't believe Genesis and Angeal ever existed, but sadly I think I have to as not everybody agrees that they conflict with the original story. But as far as Zack and Aeriths relationship goes, it was pretty much hinted at in the original game, and the expansion of that can be considered relatively canonical... Even though I found Zack falling through the church roof a little bit too far in trying to show the simularities...

Hmmm... Am I really getting involved in a romantic debate? How many man points do I lose for this?!

But hey... No-one is jumping on the other sides of the debate!

Where are the Clarretts? (I certainly felt a chemistry! And Cloud loved his sailor suit!)

The Clait Siths?
The Clephiroths?
The Cluffies?
The Clincents?
The Clon Corneos?
The Clojos?
The Cled XIIIs?

You get the idea.