What are the "true" hang ups of 12.

[spoonyrogdrumps]

Yeah, but some people are STUPID about it, as if they never played Final Fantasy. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB237kNjCU8

^^This video talks about how FF12 abandoned the "turn base" system for the "active time battle" system, which in itself, is just an evolved turn-base system.

Its really ridiculous when ppl say that FF12 didn't follow previous FF games.

Now here you go again saying stuff that you don't really elaborate on. Final Fantasy XII was just as much as any other Final Fantasy. new IP? if it was a new IP it could've had a spin off title, but it didn't. Keep in mind, Final Fantasy and Zelda games are always trying out new things, so each game is generally trying to gain new more interest.

but its not like it doesn't go for the old IP.


FF13 was the least FF game. and 10, although amazing as it was, goes right behind it.

It's not an evolved turn-based system. The video is stupid though. You are calling me stupid which is laughable as most people don't agree with you, especially people who are fans of the series, have done their homework on the subject. Heck even people in the business don't agree with you. I'm not just saying stuff. How is it ridiculous. FFXII didn't follow previous games. Why is that so hard for you to grasp. Zelda's main series still keeps it's own IP. Zelda has spin-offs that create new IP's for certain games, but main entry AAA Zelda titles keep the same IP which is Intellectual Property which also has a lot to do with the mechanics of the game and Zelda games even continue to have the same characters. The IP and mechanics of Zelda and FF are vastly different. This isn't about spin-off titles anyway as it's not about this topic. This is about a main entry AAA game being FFXII which is not based on the IP of Final Fantasy. Square Enix is lying to you just by calling it a Final Fantasy and you believe them. The reason it wasn't a spin-off title is because the new Square Enix wanted to milk the name of Final Fantasy. They just tried to throw enough in the game to make it seem like Final Fantasy so people would buy it. OHHH it's Final Fantasy gimme gimme. I'm not fighting or angry. I'm just trying to help you understand. A game is more than a title. You've heard the saying brand items sell right. They brand it Final Fantasy so it would sell.

Pure 'turn based' battling is a dying breed. Traditional Japanese rpgs, it's prime origin, is losing face even in Japan.

Lost Odyssey is among the last of turn based strategy that was well received, and probably due out of respect to Sakaguchi- it was his brainchild.

In order for Final Fantasy to move to next gen, it has to change. Square-Enix knows this very well, and that is why XII on are so different.

I agree with you that it is dying or has died and it's a shame because kids today want quick action. They don't want to think when playing games. It's all about physical response times and knee-jerk reactions. There are statistics on it so I am aware and Square is aware as well. Final Fantasy competed against a lot of different style games even then though. Final Fantasy was already a niche market as it was. Not everyone cared for it. Who determines what's nex-gen....you. I don't think so.


Please I understand people I am not afraid of change for Final Fantasy and XII was a better game than XIII. All I'm saying is if Square is going to have a different IP to stop calling it Final Fantasy. They are using the name to try out different things until it works or they have a hit game. If they want to reintroduce Final Fantasy as a new IP and make it a post apocalyptic shooter I wouldn't care but for it to be a new IP they need to drop the numbering system and re-boot the franchise.



Mod edit:
*posts merged*

 

[Razberry Knight]

It's not an evolved turn-based system. The video is stupid though. You are calling me stupid which is laughable as most people don't agree with you, especially people who are fans of the series, have done their homework on the subject. Heck even people in the business don't agree with you. I'm not just saying stuff. How is it ridiculous. FFXII didn't follow previous games. Why is that so hard for you to grasp. Zelda's main series still keeps it's own IP. Zelda has spin-offs that create new IP's for certain games, but main entry AAA Zelda titles keep the same IP which is Intellectual Property which also has a lot to do with the mechanics of the game and Zelda games even continue to have the same characters. The IP and mechanics of Zelda and FF are vastly different. This isn't about spin-off titles anyway as it's not about this topic. This is about a main entry AAA game being FFXII which is not based on the IP of Final Fantasy. Square Enix is lying to you just by calling it a Final Fantasy and you believe them. The reason it wasn't a spin-off title is because the new Square Enix wanted to milk the name of Final Fantasy. They just tried to throw enough in the game to make it seem like Final Fantasy so people would buy it. OHHH it's Final Fantasy gimme gimme. I'm not fighting or angry. I'm just trying to help you understand. A game is more than a title. You've heard the saying brand items sell right. They brand it Final Fantasy so it would sell.

i'm not calling you stupid...but i'm saying anyone who says the battle system is different from FF is stupid....

and there should be no HOMEWORK to be done, you either play it and see for yourself, or you don't. The game is just as much as Final Fantasy as FFX, a linear game that also did some different things and told different ideas.


Zelda and FF have only one thing in common is that they try something new in each entry. Although one strictly stays to RPG the other varies from adventure. and isn't FF an open-world command-based FF?

Final Fantasy XII was trying to be new, completely new? not even close. people doing their "homework" to a game they never played. and even then, i'm not seeing you actually by bringing in proof of hwo FF12 was different. the only difference is A) no manual transportation (but fast travel exist), and no "random" encounters.

FF12 uses the ATB system, a homage to ff4, 5, and 6. it still uses summons only 1 summon per character. but its not like we didn't expect that eventually in FF. The gambit system is a form of aid that is optional but still interesting to use if you want to make a specific character help you automatically. Its a form of AI but you still have the option to control your entire cast, unlike another game.

 

[Sheechiibii]

I was a bit like you Razberry, it took a second play for me to really love this game. I didn't play it for a second time after XIII though, I played it before XIII was released. For me the reason I didn't get so into it the first time was because of the story. It's not that the politics were necessarily a bad story to tell, I mean IX's story was pretty political too, it was more that the characters didn't do much in the way of developing, on their own or with each other. I felt like there were no friendships made, despite them travelling around together. I think the issue with Vaan falls into this category too, I liked Vaan enough, but he, like the rest of them, had pretty much no development over the course of the game. The only character that seems to change in any way is maybe Balthier, but even then I don't think he developed so much as we just came to understand him more.

For me that's honestly the only hang up I had. I felt uninvolved with the characters and story, because I didn't get to see them grow together and develop over the course of the story. The second time playing I knew what the story was, so I could accept it and appreciate all the other things that were great about it, like the game play. I don't understand how people can dislike it, but I guess tastes differ and that's a good thing. I didn't mind that I had to use LP, I liked the Licence board system, because it was so customizable. If there's one negative about it it's that you can't see where things are on the board, which makes setting up characters in certain roles harder than it should be unless you cheat (which I did). As for the Espers being far weaker once you own them. Well...that's usually been the case in FF hasn't it? Other than maybe FFX, where summons were amazing and they really should do something like that again.

As for the turn based battle thing. In FFXII you could play it turn based if you wanted to, gambits were only an option. I agree with Ultimaja, the sad thing is that turn based battle does not fit in new games. It is not realistic, and new games are getting more and more realistic. Final Fantasy has always been about trying to stay ahead of the times, with new ideas and new innovative games, that's why every game is so different. That's why they can't stay stuck in the past with old battle styles that just truthfully don't work any more. That's not what Final Fantasy has always been about, that's not their 'IP'.

 

[Razberry Knight]

there were some subtle possibilities...but....its not like 13 did anything better. i did see Vaan and Ashe and Balthier and even Fran develop, but in the end it really didn't stay.

but again, i still see nothing too different from previous FF games. its just as much Ff as any other game. it really didn't do anything that was so abstract from FF before. some things had to change, some didn't, but in the end it still was an FF to me.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

i'm not calling you stupid...but i'm saying anyone who says the battle system is different from FF is stupid....

and there should be no HOMEWORK to be done, you either play it and see for yourself, or you don't. The game is just as much as Final Fantasy as FFX, a linear game that also did some different things and told different ideas.


Zelda and FF have only one thing in common is that they try something new in each entry. Although one strictly stays to RPG the other varies from adventure. and isn't FF an open-world command-based FF?

Final Fantasy XII was trying to be new, completely new? not even close. people doing their "homework" to a game they never played. and even then, i'm not seeing you actually by bringing in proof of hwo FF12 was different. the only difference is A) no manual transportation (but fast travel exist), and no "random" encounters.

FF12 uses the ATB system, a homage to ff4, 5, and 6. it still uses summons only 1 summon per character. but its not like we didn't expect that eventually in FF. The gambit system is a form of aid that is optional but still interesting to use if you want to make a specific character help you automatically. Its a form of AI but you still have the option to control your entire cast, unlike another game.

What battle system is different. FF XII's battle system is different than all previous FF's. Not admitting that is stupid. You keep saying it's just as much a Final Fantasy when you know it's not. You can read between the lines you just refuse to accept it. You like so many others just look at the title of the game and if it says this or that it must be. FFX started straying from the formula it's lucky I still consider it a Final Fantasy. Thanks to it's art style, combat, narrative it barley holds it's own as part of the IP. What do you mean by open-world command-based. Open-World is open world. Command-based is command-based so yes. No of course not completely new.....It still says Final Fantasy and there were summons lol. I've played every Final Fantasy Razz except V and VI which I'm doing now. I've done my homework and have talked to enough people that share my views not yours. Final Fantasy IV is turn-based. 5 I think uses a job system as well as 3. 6 I forget. I've offered plenty of proof but you don't want proof you just want to argue. The gambit system was a gimmick. This is beyond combat systems for the IP of Final Fantasy. It's also about a traversal world map.

Wrong Sheech you didn't even know what IP was until I spelled it out for you. Who says turn-based doesn't work. You and a handful of people. You, compared to how many how say your wrong. This isn't the only forum or place to comment on the series. You two are the most advocated on this stance so far I've seen in this forum and until more people say otherwise while you still have your opinions are out-numbered. Some of your facts are wrong too so it's not all opinions.

 

[Razberry Knight]

what exactly made it so different? gambits and not "random" encounters? quickenings just being another form of limit breaks.....

really, what did 12 do so drastically different that it can't be considered Final Fantasy?

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

what exactly made it so different? gambits and not "random" encounters? quickenings just being another form of limit breaks.....

really, what did 12 do so drastically different that it can't be considered Final Fantasy?

For one it's not turn-based combat though as it wasn't designed to be used that way. They wanted you to use it the new way saying see were better. The world was just one big battlefield. There wasn't a traversal world map. Fast travel is not traversal. The pacing and design of the game didn't adhere to Final Fantasy theology, Each Final Fantasy story is different but there were some similarities in I-X in the way stories were told. The pacing of XII is different as it resembles XI. Random encounters aren't the issue as that was in place because of limits in tech. It wasn't done in X as it was still new to them. Turn-based combat is not a limit in tech it's just something different that not everyone likes. So it's not just the combat system. It's the world that is created and it's layout. While XIII is like one big hallway XII is like one big room. There's no depth, texture. The world isn't exciting to explore and just seems rather bland. Final Fantasy was always traversal until X. It's not about what was drastic. Drastic is taking Final Fantasy and turning it into a post apocalyptic shooter. The IP was changed because elements from Enix and just new input period changed the IP. Rule of thumb. When an IP works, keep it that way. People weren't tired of the way things were and new gamers coming in didn't mind it either for those that liked it. It's people that didn't like Final Fantasy as much that convinced Square Enix to go after more market share because they wanted more profit. So they wanted to go for the WOW crowd, the call of duty crowd, the casual rpg'er crowd. Square Enix is a larger dev than Naughty Dog. Square is to many chiefs and not enough indians. It's their company they can do what they want but they can't fool me just like they can't fool thousands upon thousands of others that stand with me. I recognize that people love this game and it's not all bad. The first XIII game wasn't as good but still not all bad....but, I don't turn a blind eye to what countless articles and people realize what Square was trying to do with Final Fantasy. On one hand they said hey were dying. These other games like shooters and MMORPG's are making a lot of money. Let's use the Final Fantasy name to get more people to play our games. It's a business. Video games, is a business. They make money off of you and I. They don't really care. That's getting off topic as this is just about hang ups of the game. Realistically since that is a word I'm hearing a lot of, The hang ups are traversal world map, poorly written narrative, and a misguided story with no pull or interest. The little tiffs with the battle system aren't major. Still my major hang up is because it's not really Final Fantasy but for the sake of argument the other stuff is valid.

 

[Razberry Knight]

ok....turn-base isn't even in all Final Fantasy games...you've played ff4, 5 and 6 right? guess what....they use active time battle system, which is one of the staples to FF and guess what? FF12 uses active time battle.

Saying the whole field was a battle ground is like saying FF1-10 didn't have a battleground. what did you expect exactly? the only difference is one has no random encounters and thats 12.

and the claims of ff12 being one big room is just difficult to comprehend..honestly, did you even play the game? here's the thing, the game is still open to going where you want, even if theres not alot of area to traverse in between. its still free roam. ALSO keep in mind ff10 was pretty linear too.


Similar stories is similar stories, the fact that ff12 tried something different isn't that big of a deal to consider it a different IP. They were still saving something, and they were still considered heroes. the style of the story also wasn't really setup as an MMO either....i dont understand why people say that, i can understand the combat because of no random encounters and gambit system, but not for the story itself.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

ok....turn-base isn't even in all Final Fantasy games...you've played ff4, 5 and 6 right? guess what....they use active time battle system, which is one of the staples to FF and guess what? FF12 uses active time battle.

Saying the whole field was a battle ground is like saying FF1-10 didn't have a battleground. what did you expect exactly? the only difference is one has no random encounters and thats 12.

and the claims of ff12 being one big room is just difficult to comprehend..honestly, did you even play the game? here's the thing, the game is still open to going where you want, even if theres not alot of area to traverse in between. its still free roam. ALSO keep in mind ff10 was pretty linear too.


Similar stories is similar stories, the fact that ff12 tried something different isn't that big of a deal to consider it a different IP. They were still saving something, and they were still considered heroes. the style of the story also wasn't really setup as an MMO either....i dont understand why people say that, i can understand the combat because of no random encounters and gambit system, but not for the story itself.

They are all turn-based lol. I haven't played XI or XIV but the only one that wasn't turn based was XIII. XII could be played turn based but the way they had it wasn't efficient as they invented the gambit system so you would favor that...which was already said. Each character takes a turn that is what turn-based is. Yes they had ATB. ATB is fine for what it is but it's not the be all end all. They're both turn-based and ATB. Sorry you didn't understand...
Yes I played it and finished it. It's not a big room per se..how can I describe it. Like you said not a lot of open area to go between. The fact that it wasn't traversal made it feel claustrophobic like you were in one big battleground sort of. When I mean traversal I mean using vehicles flying, driving etc over the world. Also XII's landscapes weren't very diverse. Lot's of the same color schemes etc. XII was just a single player MMO. None of the stories where similar except a crystal theme but that's not the point. The game was based off XI so not really a MMO like WOW. XII was just based on XI mechanics. Though I haven't played XI I've seen videos and heard enough reviews and peoples take on XII as just a single player XI. Yes we've established that X is linear but good narrative, combat, pacing, story and the world was just more thought out even though it was linear make it better than XII. X is a stretch to be called Final Fantasy. The other part of XII we discussed in the other thread. Final Fantasy heading toward realism. Hence XV. People knew this was coming. XI like you said was the start. XII was bland with a poor narrative in an attempt to be real. It's tone lost, ideas lost and that is when IP changes. Zelda's idea didn't change as it kept it's state of being. IP's are rare to run as long as Final Fantasy did. The IP is also not just the mechanics it's the idea. When the idea changes the IP changes so it's mechanics and the main idea or premise of the game is it's IP. Zelda didn't lose it's idea. XI "lets go after that MMO market" XII "they want single player let's still keep the MMO market though and we'll throw them a story that's convoluted" XIII "lets go after that call of duty market this looks like a Michael Bay film with lots of flash and continuous button presses" XIV "lets make it more like WOW" XV "were not selling enough we need more realism let's have all action combat and as little tactics as possible. let's make it a fantasy based on reality and people will be like ooooo reality real combat....press this button to swing your sword." Realism........ I saw it coming a mile away as well as many others did. I'm not saying it can't come back and I hope it can. It's no ones fault but Square's. Again you can to this conclusion of realism already. Final Fantasy has lost it draw, it's idea, it's charm, it's sense of being. The IP changed when X-2 came out because all these things changed. X is luck. I'm being fair. There are people out their that say VI was the last true Final Fantasy lol.

 

[Ultimaja]

In what holy book is it written that Final Fantasy games must be traditionally turn based?

 

[Sheechiibii]

In what holy book is it written that Final Fantasy games must be traditionally turn based?

Exactly. I'm wondering where this IP rule is written, because as far as I've known the concept of Final Fantasy has always been: role playing fantasy/science fantasy games that change with every new title. Change story, characters, battle system, world, concept, everything, with little to no connections between them. The whole idea was to keep changing so that the series would always be new and innovative and up to date.

 

[Razberry Knight]

They are all turn-based lol. I haven't played XI or XIV but the only one that wasn't turn based was XIII. XII could be played turn based but the way they had it wasn't efficient as they invented the gambit system so you would favor that...which was already said. Each character takes a turn that is what turn-based is. Yes they had ATB. ATB is fine for what it is but it's not the be all end all. They're both turn-based and ATB. Sorry you didn't understand...

i'm starting to think you dont know what you're saying.

Yes I played it and finished it. It's not a big room per se..how can I describe it. Like you said not a lot of open area to go between. The fact that it wasn't traversal made it feel claustrophobic like you were in one big battleground sort of. When I mean traversal I mean using vehicles flying, driving etc over the world.

this isn't the pinacle of final fantasy. is it a great feature for final fantasy to have? of course, but its not a staple to the FF series.

Also XII's landscapes weren't very diverse. Lot's of the same color schemes etc.

I can understand that you had gripe with the game, but this really doesn't say much as to why this particular game wasn't like Final Fantasy.

XII was just a single player MMO. None of the stories where similar except a crystal theme but that's not the point.

MMO (or MMORPG) in general means "massive multiplater online" which only leaves the "RPG mechanic".

Non of the stories were similar? then why even say they were?

The game was based off XI so not really a MMO like WOW. XII was just based on XI mechanics. Though I haven't played XI I've seen videos and heard enough reviews and peoples take on XII as just a single player XI. Yes we've established that X is linear but good narrative, combat, pacing, story and the world was just more thought out even though it was linear make it better than XII. X is a stretch to be called Final Fantasy. The other part of XII we discussed in the other thread. Final Fantasy heading toward realism. Hence XV. People knew this was coming. XI like you said was the start. XII was bland with a poor narrative in an attempt to be real. It's tone lost, ideas lost and that is when IP changes. Zelda's idea didn't change as it kept it's state of being. IP's are rare to run as long as Final Fantasy did. The IP is also not just the mechanics it's the idea. When the idea changes the IP changes so it's mechanics and the main idea or premise of the game is it's IP. Zelda didn't lose it's idea. XI "lets go after that MMO market" XII "they want single player let's still keep the MMO market though and we'll throw them a story that's convoluted" XIII "lets go after that call of duty market this looks like a Michael Bay film with lots of flash and continuous button presses" XIV "lets make it more like WOW" XV "were not selling enough we need more realism let's have all action combat and as little tactics as possible. let's make it a fantasy based on reality and people will be like ooooo reality real combat....press this button to swing your sword." Realism........ I saw it coming a mile away as well as many others did. I'm not saying it can't come back and I hope it can. It's no ones fault but Square's. Again you can to this conclusion of realism already. Final Fantasy has lost it draw, it's idea, it's charm, it's sense of being. The IP changed when X-2 came out because all these things changed. X is luck. I'm being fair. There are people out their that say VI was the last true Final Fantasy lol.

all of this is just gripe you have...and to each their own, but really you're not providing reason as to why Final Fantasy 12 isn't as much of A FInal Fantasy compared to FF1-10.......


NOW...i'm not going to consider QUALITY as a reason as to why FF12 is just as much an FF as previous games. I'm strictly referring to features of a FF game. And honestly, realism or at least the aim for realism has been around since 3D gaming. Either way, FF trying to be realistic isn't a problem its the fact that it affects the gameplay, but in FF12, we didn't have much issue. the world was as emmersive and well made.

ALso the fact that the towns were so lose to gether made it difficult to actually have a huge open world without it affecting the story. but i will say it does a better job than 13 where you have only one direction to go and can't go back. you are forced to follow the story and lore the way SE wanted you but 12 left some room for free roam.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

i'm starting to think you dont know what you're saying.

this isn't the pinacle of final fantasy. is it a great feature for final fantasy to have? of course, but its not a staple to the FF series.


I can understand that you had gripe with the game, but this really doesn't say much as to why this particular game wasn't like Final Fantasy.


MMO (or MMORPG) in general means "massive multiplater online" which only leaves the "RPG mechanic".

Non of the stories were similar? then why even say they were?


all of this is just gripe you have...and to each their own, but really you're not providing reason as to why Final Fantasy 12 isn't as much of A FInal Fantasy compared to FF1-10.......


NOW...i'm not going to consider QUALITY as a reason as to why FF12 is just as much an FF as previous games. I'm strictly referring to features of a FF game. And honestly, realism or at least the aim for realism has been around since 3D gaming. Either way, FF trying to be realistic isn't a problem its the fact that it affects the gameplay, but in FF12, we didn't have much issue. the world was as emmersive and well made.

ALso the fact that the towns were so lose to gether made it difficult to actually have a huge open world without it affecting the story. but i will say it does a better job than 13 where you have only one direction to go and can't go back. you are forced to follow the story and lore the way SE wanted you but 12 left some room for free roam.

Your putting words in my mouth and you talk in circles. I never said XII was the pinacle. Again the gripe your referring to is already discussed and I made my point clear you just don't understand fact or you talk in circles to get my goat. I know what MMO MMORPG is......The mechanics were similar sorry if that wasn't clear.

It's more than just gripe. XII does not ad-hear to the IP of Final Fantasy. And you can disagree all you want but XII is far to different than I-IX and X pushes itself closer to XII than IX of being an actual Final Fantasy. I've explained it in many ways. Just because something is named Final Fantasy doesn't make it so....your doing this on purpose. I could find articles and comments that could explain more but since your outnumbered as it is buy the majority of it's fan-base I don't feel like I need to indulge any further than I already have. You talked about realism before...so were good on the other thread it's just this one beef with XII that I have a hard time understanding your point of view as it doesn't make sense...any more than how I make sense to you probably.

I'll say I agree with you the combat wasn't the real issue. I liked the combat of other FF's better but yes it comes down to the fact that XII was modeled after XI. Not in story. The feel of XII and XI. The flow of it, and the world design was not like it's predecessors in spirit not in actuality. I am a Final Fantasy purist therefore I stick with the original IP formula. So you don't think I know what I'm talking about when I say turn-based? If not that's too bad because your wrong. ATB and Turn-based are two different things and co-exist within the same game. I never talked about the story or narrative in XI just XII. My mind can't be changed just like your can't about XII. I just don't believe XII sticks to the spirit and formula of the IP nurtured by Sakaguchi. It may not make sense to you but it doesn't have to. It's just your opinion against a whole lot more

 

[Razberry Knight]

Your putting words in my mouth and you talk in circles.

I never said XII was the pinacle.

Never said you said that. In fact i said that. but really, you're arguing a word

Again the gripe your referring to is already discussed and I made my point clear you just don't understand fact or you talk in circles to get my goat. I know what MMO MMORPG is......The mechanics were similar sorry if that wasn't clear.

the mechanics being similar isn't so bad.

It's more than just gripe. XII does not ad-hear to the IP of Final Fantasy. I've explained it in many ways. Just because something is named Final Fantasy doesn't make it so....your doing this on purpose.

Doing "what' on purpose?

What you have explained, is the differences, but then when i elaborate on how their similar or how it's not a staple into Final Fantasy, you suddenly make 180, you suddenly, go back to what i was saying "all final fantasy have different games" "all games have turn-base in it" which not too long ago, you said "FF12 doesn't have turn base" and "All FF stories are different but had a similar principle"

I could find articles that could explain more but since your outnumbered as it is buy the majority of it's fan-base I don't feel like I need to indulge any further than I already have. You talked about realism before...so were good on the other thread it's just this one beef with XII that I have a hard time understanding your point of view as it doesn't make sense...any more than how I make sense to you

i dont really fricken care about being outnumbered....thats like believing all the reviews of FInal Fantasy XIII.

Final Fantasy 12 has many of the staples of the FF series. does it have "all" of the staples? no, but even if FF12 did look for a new IP, it didn't really do a big job of it. like i said, many of the features of previous final fantasy are still there, even if altered.

 

[Ilyena]

The biggest issue for me was the lack of character development and interaction. I felt pretty much zero connection with the characters and felt like they were basically cardboard cutouts you move through the world because well you have to get around the plot somehow. Balthier was the only character to really show personality and while yes some of the others were important to the plot, they were pretty dull and uninteresting. It just felt like they put a great deal of time and effort into the world as a whole and the characters were just an afterthought.

That said, I actually didn't mind the villain characters and felt they were more interesting than the main cast. I actually enjoyed Vayne as a villain and it was kind of refreshing having a villain that wasn't over-the-top nutso. Not that I have an issue with that either, it was just interesting to see something different.

I thought the Espers were lacking as well. Fighting them was a fun challenge but summoning them in battle was kind of useless.

 

[Razberry Knight]

The biggest issue for me was the lack of character development and interaction. I felt pretty much zero connection with the characters and felt like they were basically cardboard cutouts you move through the world because well you have to get around the plot somehow. Balthier was the only character to really show personality and while yes some of the others were important to the plot, they were pretty dull and uninteresting. It just felt like they put a great deal of time and effort into the world as a whole and the characters were just an afterthought.

That said, I actually didn't mind the villain characters and felt they were more interesting than the main cast. I actually enjoyed Vayne as a villain and it was kind of refreshing having a villain that wasn't over-the-top nutso. Not that I have an issue with that either, it was just interesting to see something different.

I thought the Espers were lacking as well. Fighting them was a fun challenge but summoning them in battle was kind of useless.

i can see why. but since i played ff13, the over-the-top characters and super cliche back story with little to no motivation, it was sort of refreshing. Ashe for sure had as much as personality as she was important. Vaan, although wasn't important as much, did show signs of having internal issues....i guess the one thing i would've asked from Vaan is meeting and discovering Gabranth early on and seeking revenge. Fran seemed like a side-kick. an "optional" character to have around, and she was useful but only "background" useful...someone to give us information...but i wish she was more....

Alot of the hang ups are also how the story moves on from the characters...


One specific hang up that i think would've made this game more tolerable for newcomers and older FF fans is if they sticked fantasy-like dialogue along with OR accents, but not both. i think that is one of the things this game suffers with and its the combination of the both. Fran particularly, i noticed how she had a distinct accent. I thought it was interesting only to realize that none of the vierra had her accent. So i was like "why give her such an accent in the first place if it didn't have any background to it"

its like if chooey's grogs are just him alone while all wookies speak perfect english.

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

Never said you said that. In fact i said that. but really, you're arguing a word



the mechanics being similar isn't so bad.


Doing "what' on purpose?

What you have explained, is the differences, but then when i elaborate on how their similar or how it's not a staple into Final Fantasy, you suddenly make 180, you suddenly, go back to what i was saying "all final fantasy have different games" "all games have turn-base in it" which not too long ago, you said "FF12 doesn't have turn base" and "All FF stories are different but had a similar principle"



i dont really fricken care about being outnumbered....thats like believing all the reviews of FInal Fantasy XIII.

Final Fantasy 12 has many of the staples of the FF series. does it have "all" of the staples? no, but even if FF12 did look for a new IP, it didn't really do a big job of it. like i said, many of the features of previous final fantasy are still there, even if altered.

Maybe the way I worded it. I'm on very little sleep right now. I'm not arguing anything. I never said the mechanics were bad. It's my professional business opinion that Square has milked the franchise by targeting MMO gamers, call of duty gamers and action platform gamers. It's evident and it's all over the place.

You are trying to prove that XII is similar to the previous games enough by saying it has some staples, to prove it's worthy of being called Final Fantasy. While it's a decent game in it's own right and still called final fantasy by many it's still a different IP as there are enough differences to realize what Square was doing to the franchise. It changed. They weren't as successful with XI or XII as most of the games before it. There are sales figures to back that up. but this isn't about that. The answer is clear ........you like the game better than I did and still consider it the same IP. I'm sorry I didn't elaborate on FF12 turn-based status in that sentence. I didn't mean to say it didn't have turn based. I explained later that the game wanted you to favor the gambit system and step away from turn-based. Sheech makes less and less sense where you and I are just at a crossroads. From a business standpoint Square needed to do things different and instead it takes advantage of the consumer still managing to stay afloat. If they don't re-boot soon they could be in trouble at least with final fantasy.

Fantasy like dialogue... you mean just a better written narrative. The games narrative sucked it had nothing to do with newcomers or older fans from the ps1 era or really old from SNES or those in japan who were older still for nes. You can disagree because you probably will.

 

[Razberry Knight]

You are trying to prove that XII is similar to the previous games enough by saying it has some staples, to prove it's worthy of being called Final Fantasy. While it's a decent game in it's own right and still called final fantasy by many it's still a different IP as there are enough differences to realize what Square was doing to the franchise. It changed. They weren't as successful with XI or XII as most of the games before it. There are sales figures to back that up.

the changes don't outweight the staples. and them not being as successful doesn't mean that its not any more of a final fantasy game...again....sale is only t

The answer is clear ........you like the game better than I did and still consider it the same IP. I'm sorry I didn't elaborate on FF12 turn-based status in that sentence. I didn't mean to say it didn't have turn based. I explained later that the game wanted you to favor the gambit system and step away from turn-based. Sheech makes less and less sense where you and I are just at a crossroads. From a business standpoint Square needed to do things different and instead it takes advantage of the consumer still managing to stay afloat. If they don't re-boot soon they could be in trouble at least with final fantasy.

like i said, the changes don't outweight the staples. FF12 still plays with the intention of being a descendant of ff1-10 while still trying to "evolve".

 

[spoonyrogdrumps]

the changes don't outweight the staples. and them not being as successful doesn't mean that its not any more of a final fantasy game...again....sale is only t



like i said, the changes don't outweight the staples. FF12 still plays with the intention of being a descendant of ff1-10 while still trying to "evolve".

Oh I understand what your saying. This "evolving" though was the change of the IP. We disagree on what staples of FF is and isn't that's all. I'm agreeing to disagree.

 

[Razberry Knight]

you could say that about ff7.