Why are you an atheist or agnostic?

Shu

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So I went to my Secular Group tonight and we are getting a few folks together to talk to religious deists and it inspired the same question.

Why exactly are you an atheist and when did you figure out you were?

I am an agnostic. I don't exactly care anymore, and the reason is, if there is a god, then it doesn't have a conscious and is like a "cell". It created it all, and left .. and that's that and maybe even died or evolved into some other organism. I don't believe in infinity so that's why I believe something created it all.. cause and effect. Infinity is a laugh. The reason I say that, is because I believe there is an end to "existence as I know it."

I don't believe in Jesus Chris, Allah, the Hebrew God, or anything that has a monotheist personality.

Why? Faith, Hope and Love are man made inventions. We choose to get along, because either we are apathetic or because we were lead to believe there is something at the end of the tunnel.

I honestly think when it all boils down though, we are all individualists trying to find some type of synergy. Some type of clay to put us all back together. Some type of thing that we can all unite in. That's what most of the times Christianity and groups like it are for. Some place where we can all validate a belief due to something that happened 2000 years ago.

I don't think everything on earth happened 2000,3000 years ago.. I believe we are small minded to even phathom that. Christianity sometimes seem so desperate to defend itself, when sometimes, all I do is ask a simple question like..

What would I tell you if Jeff Dahmer or Hitler went to Heaven? They both believed in Jesus, so according to the good book, they are now in Heaven. It's a contradiction if you say otherwise.

Me, I think there is nothing at the end of the rainbow. What we have is what we have. Unfortunately some were born lucky, and through wisdom, some get unluckier throughout life. Though by putting a face or a belief behind why something happened, is a little bit of a scape goat.

It destroys my belief doctrine in Humanitarianism and Naturalism. I believe men and women can eventually work together as long as they are not too pig headed about opinions. If people are willing to work with different Faiths and accept that people will always make up deities in order to "fill the void", then we might get along on this small rock we call Earth.

Some times it's just something to do.. Sometimes it's just something people unify in. Sometimes it's just something to work towards. A true Christian, doesn't scare me..

A Christian who tries to indoctrinate religion in law/war scares the shit out of me. Same thing with Islamic beliefs as well. If one tries to say, you can't do something, due to it's in the bible.. that scares me too.

Not everything in the Bible/Torah/Qur'an is Moral/Ethical. So it really stomps out belief overall.
 
"When you’re an atheist, it’s sometimes hard not to adopt an anti-theistic sentiment. You realize a lot of the injustices and absurdities around you — anti-gay laws, anti-abortion laws, anti-scientific attitudes — are all largely influenced by the belief of an invisible being sitting in the sky that apparently sent a book down 2000 years ago telling you how to live your life. And you can’t help but be pissed off at the sheer stupidity of it all."

"I challenge you to find one good or noble thing which cannot be accomplished without religion. It is impossible. You cannot do it."

"Not only are we in the universe, the universe is in us. I don't know of any deeper spiritual feeling than what that brings upon me."

"God is the first and most effective terrorist in the universe. He uses terror and promises of terror to subdue his slaves into eternal submission."

"Science has done more for the development of western civilization in one hundred years than Christianity did in eighteen hundred years."

"I am a creationist. God was created by man." (that one's more humorous than intellectual. but still.)


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I could go on for days. The main reason behind why I am an atheist is because knowing that I will cease to exist completely is much more comforting than the idea of essentially sitting at church for the rest of eternity. I know what not existing is like. I didn't for billions of years. The least I can do is enjoy my life while it lasts, and I don't intend to waste that time serving someone who doesn't exist. Everything about religion disgusts me.

Also: I don't like picking and choosing. Pretty sure you can infer what I mean from that term.

Also Part II: Rick Perry and Rick Santorum.



Well, this is more like why I am not Christian or Catholic. In short, I don't believe any religion mainly because appointing human-like deities to any element of nature or claiming they made the universe is absurd. We're not very different from any other organism on the planet. And that's just this planet, in this galaxy. And since there is the possibility of something creating the universe, it certainly wouldn't have been a human
 
Actually, whether or not Hitler was that much of a genuine religious person as he publicly claimed he was when it came to positive Christianity is kind of disputed still, at least it was the last time I checked. I personally suspect he actually became as secular as he claimed the Bolsheviks were by the 1940s. Plus he would have said anything nice about the church to keep that lot on his side and avoid any form of factionalism in the Third Reich - until they started questioning the euthanasia programme for instance, but I digress.

I've been an agnostic for probably as long as I can remember. I know my Catholic grandparents were probably a little taken aback by this to begin with (particularly my grandmother, who is half-Austrian), and they were the ones who pushed my parents to send me to a Catholic high school. I belonged in the school choir then, and I did actually enjoy myself quite immensely, but unlike a lot of my peers there, I clearly felt detached and far-flung from all this. I enjoyed being part of the choir and singing what was in front of me, but the lyrics meant very little to me, as did the excessively long sermons the chaplain would give to us at least three times a week.

I'll keep it simple. I don't believe in an all-loving deity out there simply because I see no rational evidence to believe He exists out there. I don't believe there is anything all-loving out there, and if there is, it is conveniently not His fault that the world is still so screwed up and that non-believers are to be permanently cast into burning flames! I feel so assured knowing that He's up there loving us now, mhm. At the same time, I don't believe we can know. Who knows, perhaps there is a supernatural force at work that we do not, and cannot hope to comprehend. Would I love to know all the secrets? Who doesn't? But I've virtually no hope of attaining these kind of answers. But I am sure that if we do, we won't find a benevolent and omniscient man lurking eternally up there.

At the same time, I strongly see the Bible as being an anachronism. Indeed, I will not deny that it has carried over timeless virtues that should be encompassed for any civilised society. But it won't sway me from the belief in that the Bible is chauvinistic and can barely apply to our modern world. You can try and argue that it can be interpreted in a way that correlates and suits with our world more relevantly and that it isn't meant to be taken word for word (latter point is no news to me, because we've clearly moved beyond from the Dark Ages...), but for instance:

Corinthians 14:34-35

"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

Oh yes, very progressive. I've seen people defend this and look at the context at which this was written. I respect what they're saying, but to me, this sounds - and will always sound - incredibly chauvinistic and therefore virtually impossible for me to want to wholeheartedly subscribe to.

...plus you're kind of screwed if you're not married then. xD
 
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People seem to be talking about why they do not like religion, rather than why they don't believe in a God.

I don't believe in any of the religious Gods because there is absolutely no evidence for them, bar some ancient books. Considering all those ancient books are equally valid, I don't see the point in choosing one.

The Einsteinian God is the idea that there's a creator who set up the laws of physics, pressed play at the dawn of existence, then fucked off. It has much more merit than some personal god who listens to your little prayers and frets over your sins, but it's still a claim without evidence.

Gnostic means to be certain, Agnostic means to be uncertain

Theism is the belief in a God, atheism is the lack of belief in a God

A Gnostic theist believes there is undoubtedly a god

An agnostic theist believes there is a God, but does not know for sure there is one

An agnostic atheist does not believe there is a God, but does not know 100% that there isn't one

A Gnostic atheist thinks that there is definitely no God

I am an agnostic atheist because though I do not think there's a God, it has not been proven there isn't one regardless of his or her absenteeism
 
What would I tell you if Jeff Dahmer or Hitler went to Heaven? They both believed in Jesus, so according to the good book, they are now in Heaven. It's a contradiction if you say otherwise.
I think that's a particularly weak argument for why someone is an atheist or an agnostic. If you are an agnostic or an atheist you don't believe in Heaven therefore it's irrelevant.
Also off topic but slightly relevant, the arguments people have about the merits of Religion or Atheism and they bring up the point that Stalin was an atheist, so atheists are shithouses or Pol Pot was a Buddhist so religious people are cunts is even weaker. Stalin didn't murder millions of people because he was an atheist so the fact that he was an atheist is irrelevant, and the same is true of Pol Pot or just about any killer you care to mention.

I'd describe myself as an agnostic because I don't care at all. God or even the question of god's existence is something I never think about, the only time I come close to thinking about it is when I say 'Jesus fucking Christ' normally because someone has done something very stupid.
Also because I think atheists are often as stupid and ignorant as the religious people they try to demonise.
 
I am an atheist because I find it completely and utterly delusional to believe in an all mighty man in the sky. I am not quite sure I believe in the big bang either but in my head that makes a little more sense than Jesus and God.

I also find it annoying and unsettling that this all mighty being is sitting up there wherever the fuck he is mean to be judging my every move and if i do not live up to his expectations in every little way he will smite me and send me to Hell.
I don't like that some God is commanding love and loyalty when he created diseases and natural disasters and allows children to starve because of stupid things like adam and eve eating the apple when told not to. He sure does hold a grudge and enjoys punishing people :hmmm:
So I guess that's another reason I don't believe in a God. Because if he is real he's one incredibly mighty cunt.

I don't really ever think about religion or why we're here or anything like that ever unless it is brought up like in this thread or something. I find that it's a bit of a waste of time worrying about something like that.

I'll also not judge another person if they are religious unless they're shoving it down my throat, but I do find it very hard to understand how they can believe in the strange things religion teaches them and why they bother to waste their life trying to please someone no one is even sure exists.

Hrm hopefully that made sense :wacky:
 
A Christian who tries to indoctrinate religion in law/war scares the shit out of me. Same thing with Islamic beliefs as well. If one tries to say, you can't do something, due to it's in the bible.. that scares me too.

I would like to point out something. :grin:

The main reason scientists aren't open minded towards the possibility of the universe being designed has to do with atheists indoctrinating atheism into science. The materialist explanation is counter intuitive and less simplistic than the creationist version.

Atheists would indoctrinate their beliefs into law/war/science and are prone towards twisting facts and statistics towards suiting their own pre-conceived notions as much as the religious right.

The geneticist and evolutionary biologist Richard Lewontin is well known for saying...

‘We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

-Richard Lewontin

I give him credit for honesty -- something that is extremely lacking in these times. :ohshit:
 
Atheists would indoctrinate their beliefs into law/war/science and are prone towards twisting facts and statistics towards suiting their own pre-conceived notions as much as the religious right.

I disagree. Atheism is not worshiped nor is it a religion. It almost is hardly a belief system, it's just giving it a word by saying.. you either don't give a damn, or you believe that the notion that there ever was a god is complete bollocks.

No one goes to churches/mosques to worship atheism. The only time atheists truly have problems with religious people are when rights are encroached or that creationism is considered valid and evolution is completely thrown out the window. That's when secular movements take place.

Science and Math can only be lied about, not twisted. There are hypothesis's but those are "educated" guesses.

It's when complete ignorance and closed mindedness occurs that religion becomes a threat. The words "Pray for you" are thrown around way too loosely in society. If someone tells me that, I just say.. "No disrespect, but please don't waste your breath."

Rampant intellectual debates are quite a bit more favorable than fanatical religious debates. By trying to support facts that happened merely over 2000 years ago, it's not solving anything. Secularism is dealing with the here and now.
 
The main reason scientists aren't open minded towards the possibility of the universe being designed has to do with atheists indoctrinating atheism into science. The materialist explanation is counter intuitive and less simplistic than the creationist version.

You're building this argument on a false premise. Scientists are, in fact, open to the possibility of the universe having been created by a deity. If you can objectively prove that to be a fact, I doubt you'd have a scientist in the world who would fail to agree with your findings. The problem lies in the fact that "proving God" (and therefore proving Creationism, because the ideology relies on there being a deity) is currently impossible. Thus, scientists are of the idea that Creationism is a creation myth like the hundreds or thousands of other creation myths in the world.

Also, with the indoctrination malarkey, you're creating a chicken or the egg argument with it. You seem to be saying that atheism/atheists essentially created the Big Bang Theory, but it could be just as easily stated that the Big Bang Theory created atheists. (No Creation myth = devaluation of the religious text = weakened belief in religion.)

Also also, that entire indoctrination crap is ... well, crap, considering that the Big Bang Theory was first brought forth by a Belgian Catholic priest (and physicist; he was both adherent and scientist, at the same time). So apparently it wasn't atheists indoctrinating anything into science. It was a scientist making observations based on science.

===============

I am an agnostic. Mainly because I don't know anything. There could be a deity, there could not be. Moreover, does it really matter? Does it affect my daily life personally? If it does, I haven't noticed, so if there is a deity s/he/it's either not that interested in me, or taking a couple decades off. So..... pending a blood test....... whatever.
 
Sometimes I wish I was a believer in God though, I really don't want to die and disappear into nothing. I can see why it's much nicer to have faith that there is more beyond this, not just being eaten by worms. Fuck worms
 
Shu & Terrible Terry Tate

I'll keep this in a single block of text to make it easier to read & respond to...

I think there are things that really need to be said on the topic of religion & that the level of awareness and education are extremely low. There needs to be some attempt at real discussion as opposed to people spamming their views and reacting with hostility to those with differing opinions. But, I s'pose that would be setting the bar very high and expecting too much considering the extremely low standards of the current era? :ohshit:

With religion discussions I've noticed nearly everyone says the exact same things. Everyone says atheism is a lack of belief, atheists don't have their beliefs written down in a standardized official version & similar things & so comparing them to religion is a bad comparison... In theory, we're supposed to be individuals and free thinkers who formulate our own opinions and think for ourselves. In theory.

When I see a 15 year old make a post asking: could God create a rock so big He couldn't lift it, and saying its evidence God doesn't exist, I know for a fact that 15 year old didn't come up with that on their own or do research. They went to an atheist website and copypasta'ed things which looked intelligent because they don't care enough about the issue to make a legitimate effort to research it or lack the honesty necessary to be straight up or honest about their views.

When I see not just one 15 year old but tons of atheists copypasta spamming the same argument, I realize the problem with people failing to think for themselves could be much worse than I thought.

Its the same with other religious talking points. If we're all individuals who think for ourselves independently why is it everytime I step into one of these threads I see people reciting the same tired old views that I've seen and disproven a thousand times before?

Atheism may not be a religion, and it may not have a holy book where everything is written down but it may as well have those things considering a large proportion of atheists manage to say the exact same things with nearly none of them ever coming up with something original which might give me an indication that they're capable of independent thinking or individual thought.

Its a flawed premise to think atheists and religious people comprise two separate or distinct species. They are not genetically dissimilar nor is they any reason to assume they are different: physically or psychologically. Yet, somehow this double standard based stereotype that all religious people are luddite, technology, hating people incapable of logic and atheists are the complete opposite has still managed to propagate somehow. This suggests to me that education and the current level of intelligence and social awareness is falling through the floor. I've personally come across tons of atheists who knew absolutely nothing about logic or science yet presumed being an atheist meant they're born with an intrinsic and ingrained sense of science and technology that is indisputable. There is no difference between religious people who believe God gives them special insight or cognitive ability and atheists I've met who believed their atheism gave them a special handle on logic or science.

Its not about when atheists or religious folks have issues with people. Its about when people have issues. Atheists and religious are people first, the categorization determining their religious beliefs is a distant second. It is ignorance and corruption of reality to believe that being a atheist or religious spontaneously invokes deeper connotations which determine personality or other behavioral traits. Suffice it to say that there are religious people who are intelligent and religious people who are ignorant. And, it is the same with atheists and every other demographic on the earth. There is no group which is exempt nor given favortism in these matters.

Science is not a pure logical abstraction as some mistakenly believe. Observation aside, science is strongly dependent upon people to provide a means by which indeterminant data should be interpreted.

Its this loophole which allowed for geocentrism vs heliocentrism and countless other scientific misunderstandings throughout history.

The universe as we know it is proven to be statistically improbable possibly impossible. If the expansion rate of the universe had been off by as little as .5% life would never have occurred. This is the same as driving down a road at 200 mph and being off as little as 1 mph. Its a scientifically accepted and well known fact among scientists.

How do scientists with their atheist leaning beliefs choose to interpret this data?

In general, they say that there is an infinite number of parallel universes and that just as monkeys at typewriters would eventually re-create the full works of Shakespeare, it doesn't matter if the universe as we observe it is extremely improbable from a statistical point of view. Because, there are an infinite number of parallel universes and this just happens to be the one where a long series of statistically improable things occurred.

Well, the simplest and most likely way of interpreting the data is to simply say it was designed. The expansion rate of the universe was a guided and controlled event. Thus the velocity was perfect and within .5% tolerance to allow life to occur...

If you want to discuss fanatical religious points of view, I might be tempted to say that real fanticism occurs when there are 20 million people and all of them think and believe the exact same thing due to them being unwilling to be open minded, do actual research or question their point of view.

The end product of independent thought and free thinking is having different ideas and opinions no one has heard or seen before. If the only thing people are capable of is reciting things they saw on a website somewhere or heard via heresy. That is not individuality nor independent thought. That is indoctrination. And, people being indoctrinated into a point of view whether it be religious or atheists has always been an extremely bad thing from a historical point of view.

Atheist indoctrination and people blindly believing things they see on atheist websites or from atheist leaders like Richard Dawkins is no different from religious folks being indoctrinated to blindly believe everything they see in the bible or blindly believe everything the Pope says.

You can't substitute one form of indoctrination for another and expect a positive result. Indoctrination and people refusing to think for themselves or question their beliefs and their point of view generally leads to oppression and intolerance.

The only answer to these issues is for people to take the time to think for themselves, develop their own opinions and be independent of God or Science to do their thinking for them.

If you really want religious people to admit they blindly believe in things their holy book says, you aren't going to set a better example by blindly believing everything you see on an atheist website. Yet, strangely the stereotype that only religious ppl can be guilty of such a thing and atheists are somehow immune to that type of behavior would seem to persist.

Regardless of what religious or spiritual category a person claims to represent in the end we're all people. And, atheists and religious folks aren't necessarily as different nor as dissimilar from one another as each may believe.

We're all people. Yet we behave as if those from differing political, religious and assorted groups represent completely different species and are inhuman. This represents a dehumanization campaign and intolerance. And, if anyone from any background or demographic which supports such a view pretends they do it in the name of logic or science, they're filthy liars who have drank the kool aid...

4 am in the morning post.. Apologies if its not as clear or concise as it could have been.... :wacky:
 
Richard B Riddick said:
In theory, we're supposed to be individuals and free thinkers who formulate our own opinions and think for ourselves.

I agree with you on this one point. The rest you kept going on about was a little bit of rambling. You say people are hostile in this thread, while I have not seen proof yet.

I don't see anything quoted over and over. It's just you either believe or you don't believe in a divinity. What's there to argue about? You came in this thread expecting a religious debate? I think you walked into the wrong saloon then.

1) Days of worship + Organization + Morality

So often you have religious Get-togethers/Holidays including the following:

Wednesday Night Church Service
Saturday Morning/Night Mass - Catholic
Sunday Morning Church Service
Temple - Jewish
Mosque - Islam

Christmas
Easter
Ramadan

Youth Trips
Campus Crusades
Young Life
Baptist Student Unions

Do we attack these days? No. Do we need a day to worship? No. Do we give thanks to the invisible man in the sky or pray for things we don't need or even pray at all? Not quite.

My only argument is that Morality should never be indoctrinated from a book or from another person. It should never be practiced due to religion. It should only be self taught. No one can "teach" you morality, only give you some clarity or identify.

2) Religious Books + Science

When I read the bible (three times sadly), it was like reading Jurassic Park. There is quite a bit of "interesting" stuff, but very comparable to the Dinosaurs. They are both fictional books. Though sadly I could believe Jurassic Park could be more real than the Jesus era, the book of genesis, and revelations.

Burning Bushes/Resurrections/Healing the blind + lame/Walking on Water/Water to Wine/Splitting fish and bread to thousands/The book of Revelations/Jonah and the whale... eh.. I could keep going.

vs

DNA and research and trying to artificially create dinosaurs from genetics. Dinosaurs who when caged, could break free and kill the entire park aside from a few, due to basic Nature. We have been able to clone. With stem cell research, we have also been able to create artificial organs. So I don't think it's as far fetched as one might think.

Furthermore, what's sad about it.. is a lot of religious folks see Stem Cell Research as a threat. Instead of looking at the good, they immediately attack it due to it against their religious and ethical code.

The thing is, no one is divinely handing down rules anymore. No one is giving new rules. If the ten commandments were meant to be the code, then we're all fucked. If Jesus/Allah are the gateway to the afterlife, then morality is debunked.

Morality/Ethics are self taught code. It should never be a reason to have a better afterlife.

If religion was never questioned; Homosexuality, Women's rights, Drinking, Pre-Marital Sex and mounds of other things would be stripped and society as we know it would not exist.
 
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Ellie Keep it civil. If there's no hostility, don't bring it in to the thread.

why is it everytime I step into one of these threads I see people reciting the same tired old views that I've seen and disproven a thousand times before?

Stopped reading your post after this (since you are going off on tangents and I do not care), but...same old views that have been disproven a thousand times before... please elaborate. Kind of hilarious you'd use that phrase if referring to something an atheist thought being disproven.

Aren't you meant to be an agnostic anyway? Why do you take religion's side every time? Because you're more intelligent than every atheist or agnostic that goes out and "copypasta's" information from a site? The main reason I copied those quotes is because they're more eloquent than something I could have come up with. The quote only serves as an indication that what I was already thinking has some merit to it and that I'm not the only one thinking it.

When I see not just one 15 year old but tons of atheists copypasta spamming the same argument, I realize the problem with people failing to think for themselves could be much worse than I thought.

This just amazes me that you think religious people think for themselves more than any atheist does. What do they go by? Whatever the bible/their church says (maybe in your case some thinking about what these little stories "actually mean" aka... you could get the same morals from fucking Aesop.) What does an atheist go by? Sure, things their textbook says, and some inspiration from an atheist, but it takes some balls to actually stick to that, especially when you've grown up with religious parents or religious friends. There's lots of people who will think you're acting foolishly because you've chosen to not take part in a religion. So no, that 15 year old IS thinking for his or her self. ESPECIALLY if he or she grew up with religion, no matter how small a role. That 15 year old doesn't need to write an essay on why they believe God does not exist in their own words to be an atheist. Just like you don't need justification for believing in the bible. Have you not realized that so many people quote the bible...? That's... pretty much the same thing.

What's there to argue about? You came in this thread expecting a religious debate? I think you walked into the wrong saloon then.
 
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That's... pretty much the same thing.


It's a little worse. No offense to anyone religious at all.

It's like this. You can't fight your battles with the Bible. You just can't. You either believe in Jesus from cherry picked quotes from Matthew - John, or you believe in God (hebrew god) from Old testament quotes say... Proverbs and Psalms, or Allah from the Qur'an due to religious servitude. Granted I think that type of devoutness is amazing, but at the same time I believe it could be devoted to other things. It's partially why the advancement of the human race is held up. The inability to change, due to stuff that was written thousands of years ago by man. God did not write your books, it was "divinely" inspired men according to theologians.

The Bible vs Science, never adds up to anything. Science can't disprove god entirely, and god can't be proven either so it is a routine circular logic debate. Why? No one was alive back then. For the here and now, so many people try to feed off of other people's testimonies, but in the end it is not their own. When people are faced with the bottom and there is nothing reaching, as much as you yourself are reaching for this spiritual being.. that's when faith falls short.

It's sad that's what it comes down to for some people. Think about it. Why do some Priests who have remained devout for years, give up their spiritual walk and become atheists? Why do so many evangelicals do the same?

Also Atheists/Agnostics don't admit to knowing all things, nor are we completely devoid of spirituality. I am actually really spiritual. Evolution fascinates me, and I wish to transcend some hardships in life, and in the metaphysical. I am fascinated by nature and what's on earth. I love my life.

Here's a great video from Sam Harris, to maybe shed some light:


Have a good one ;)


 
I really wish I could say that I am an Atheist. Then, I could find it easier to explain my beliefs, but the truth of the fact is that I'm not an Atheist. As it has been pointed out by several friends of mine, I am an Agnostic. What kind I have no idea cause most of my views are kinda crossed and stuff. I know that I don't believe in Jesus Christ, I don't believe in the notion that just one man made this entire universe.

Is it possible? Sure, anything is possible.

Is it logical? Sure, within reason.

Is it what I believe? No way do I believe in that.

According to what I've researched, an Agnostic is someone who doesn't believe in God, but doesn't outrule that there is some deity up there watching over everything.

If I may quote the American Heritage Dictionary..

" An "agnostic" is "one who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God" or "one who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."

I might be the only one, but might not be that this applies too, but the fact of the matter is that I am an Agnostic because I choose not to believe in one god, but I do not deny the fact that there is something up there.
 
I agree with you on this one point. The rest you kept going on about was a little bit of rambling. You say people are hostile in this thread, while I have not seen proof yet.

Being hostile towards those with different ideas is an instinctive tendency shared by all.

Whether its republicans vs democrats, communism vs democracy, theist vs atheist. Sports team vs sports team. There isn't necessarily a massive deviation present which implies religion is the only heated or controversial topic.

I expect people to be hostile or react negatively when someone disagrees with them. Especially in the current era where absolutism and dictators are oft revered and worshipped and many have a mentality where they think being an oppressive douchebag who exploits every who lives in an entire country is "cool".

Those who have that mentality really do take it personally when someone disagrees with them or has a different opinion than they do. And, as time passes, that kind of attitude seems to become increasingly common. So, even if I haven't seen hostility in this thread yet, I would guess its only a matter of time.

I don't see anything quoted over and over. It's just you either believe or you don't believe in a divinity. What's there to argue about? You came in this thread expecting a religious debate? I think you walked into the wrong saloon then.

Hm. Good question. I guess on some level it bothers me how everyone alive seems to believe they're independent thinkers and individuals when for the most part all they're capable of is reciting the words of someone else.

Not just with religion or religious discussion, its present in politics and elsewhere.

Its like people who do and say trendy things all the time trying to say they're "rebels". I don't think a person can be an individual or independent thinker simply by doing what everyone else is doing.

1) Days of worship + Organization + Morality

So often you have religious Get-togethers/Holidays including the following:

Wednesday Night Church Service
Saturday Morning/Night Mass - Catholic
Sunday Morning Church Service
Temple - Jewish
Mosque - Islam

Christmas
Easter
Ramadan

Youth Trips
Campus Crusades
Young Life
Baptist Student Unions

Do we attack these days? No. Do we need a day to worship? No. Do we give thanks to the invisible man in the sky or pray for things we don't need or even pray at all? Not quite.

Well... people in the dark ages had more holidays than we do now.

Americans are working longer hours with less vacation time than in the 1950's.

I don't think its religion's fault. :x

My only argument is that Morality should never be indoctrinated from a book or from another person. It should never be practiced due to religion. It should only be self taught. No one can "teach" you morality, only give you some clarity or identify.

In a sense, don't parents enforce a code morality in punishing kids for certain types of behavior and encouraging others?

The government imposes a code of morality by having laws and enforcing them as do schools, corporations, and other bodies / entities which have their own dress code or rules.

The idea of morality is that certain rules, laws and ways of thinking about things and interacting are beneficial and passing them on to successive generations is more efficient and better than each generation re-inventing the wheel for themselves.

As an adult, you must feel that you've learned things about life that you might pass on to young people and have them benefit from your wisdom.

That's the meaning and value of having a moral code, I believe.

2) Religious Books + Science

When I read the bible (three times sadly), it was like reading Jurassic Park. There is quite a bit of "interesting" stuff, but very comparable to the Dinosaurs. They are both fictional books. Though sadly I could believe Jurassic Park could be more real than the Jesus era, the book of genesis, and revelations.

Burning Bushes/Resurrections/Healing the blind + lame/Walking on Water/Water to Wine/Splitting fish and bread to thousands/The book of Revelations/Jonah and the whale... eh.. I could keep going.

vs

DNA and research and trying to artificially create dinosaurs from genetics. Dinosaurs who when caged, could break free and kill the entire park aside from a few, due to basic Nature. We have been able to clone. With stem cell research, we have also been able to create artificial organs. So I don't think it's as far fetched as one might think.

When I read the bible I recognize a lot of things recorded in it are really dumb and facepalm worthy. What gives it value & meaning is after awhile I realize those alive in the current era make the exact same mistakes people in the bible made. In some cases, worse.

What good is science or technology if our character and ethics have made zero progress over the last few thousand years?

Its like Martin Luther King Jr said: "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

The bible and religion has a point in terms of human nature being the main cause of things like war, prejudice, exploitation, abuse and other negative which inflict pain and suffering upon the world.

Science can enable us to build a better mousetrap, but it can't tell us if killing a mouse is moral or ethical nor which aspect of human nature is responsible for poverty. Just look at psychology over the last few decades. We've gone from believing people are responsible and accountable for their actions pinning the blame on whether or not someone was breast fed as a child.

It really does take a prophet or someone who is abnormally honest to weigh matters in terms of human nature, the human condition and the way things really are.

No one in science is stepping forwards and raising awareness on issues that are really important. Science in and of itself is no moral institution and thinking it can act as a shield for human concerns when its historically been allied with the wealthy and rich may well be unrealistic.

Furthermore, what's sad about it.. is a lot of religious folks see Stem Cell Research as a threat. Instead of looking at the good, they immediately attack it due to it against their religious and ethical code.

The thing is, no one is divinely handing down rules anymore. No one is giving new rules. If the ten commandments were meant to be the code, then we're all fucked. If Jesus/Allah are the gateway to the afterlife, then morality is debunked.

Morality/Ethics are self taught code. It should never be a reason to have a better afterlife.

If religion religion was never questioned; Homosexuality, Women's rights, Drinking, Pre-Marital Sex and mounds of other things would be stripped and society as we know it would not exist.

China, japan and many other countries which are not affiliated with christianity, judaism nor islam are known for treating women poorly in a historical sense.

I don't see why christianity should be considered a cause of it when such behavior was extremely common in certain eras of history and arguably practiced by near every culture on earth.

Religion isn't inherently oppressive towards women, though undeniably some throughout history have bent it to suit their own purpose during eras when men being oppressive towards women was considered trendy.

Stopped reading your post after this (since you are going off on tangents and I do not care), but...same old views that have been disproven a thousand times before... please elaborate. Kind of hilarious you'd use that phrase if referring to something an atheist thought being disproven.

Its hilarious until you realize its true and I'm wholly capable of backing up what I say :grin:

Aren't you meant to be an agnostic anyway? Why do you take religion's side every time? Because you're more intelligent than every atheist or agnostic that goes out and "copypasta's" information from a site? The main reason I copied those quotes is because they're more eloquent than something I could have come up with. The quote only serves as an indication that what I was already thinking has some merit to it and that I'm not the only one thinking it.

I don't always take religions side. :ohshit: Actually, if someone here that was religious brought up the topic of religion, I would probably be disagreeing with them right now about something...

This just amazes me that you think religious people think for themselves more than any atheist does. What do they go by? Whatever the bible/their church says (maybe in your case some thinking about what these little stories "actually mean" aka... you could get the same morals from fucking Aesop.) What does an atheist go by? Sure, things their textbook says, and some inspiration from an atheist, but it takes some balls to actually stick to that, especially when you've grown up with religious parents or religious friends. There's lots of people who will think you're acting foolishly because you've chosen to not take part in a religion. So no, that 15 year old IS thinking for his or her self. ESPECIALLY if he or she grew up with religion, no matter how small a role. That 15 year old doesn't need to write an essay on why they believe God does not exist in their own words to be an atheist. Just like you don't need justification for believing in the bible. Have you not realized that so many people quote the bible...? That's... pretty much the same thing.

If you asked a hundred people what love is, you might receive a hundred different answers. Everyone would have different experiences and have reached different conclusions & have different ideas. Nothing is at stake and people tending to be social creatures enjoy sharing their views on neutral topics and seeing what other people have to say.

Now, compare that to how atheists approach the topic of religion.

They almost never disagree or have differing ideas. They have a tendency to be political and show a unified front to the world.

If only religious discussion were as neutral a ground as talking about love and sex we might actually hear things that were honest and from the heart as opposed to political diatribes designed to win sympathy or emote a response.

edit @ Ellie - When I said some atheists copypasta... I wasn't talking about you, btw.

You seem independent and like someone who is quite capable of thinking for themselves. [:
 
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I don't see why a lot of people arriving at the same conclusion via similar thought processes, is indicative of simply conforming. If ten people touch a fence, get an electric shock, and conclude independently that it's an electrified fence, would you then claim they are clearly only copying what the others said?

When someone comes up with a great example or analogy, it makes sense to use it rather than using an inferior example of your own. In maths you use established formulae and proofs rather than deriving everything yourself. This doesn't mean you lack a capacity for thought, you are simply using the wheel rather than reinventing it

I also find it weird that you have that problem with atheism, but almost all religion comes from approximately five ancient texts. Rather than read some musty books written years ago(which by your own admission have outdated contents), why not go out and experience or find God for yourself?
 
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I worship Paul the Pigeon that sits undecidedly on the Holy Fence.

I guess that makes me an agnostic, if I was to slap a label on my head. I really do not voice myself on religion much. I don’t talk about my religious beliefs to people unless they really ask me or I’m writing posts on this forum.


My reasons for being like this are partly due to what follows.

How can I possibly choose between a single religion?

None of them have spoken out to me or given me a sign. If it is down to ‘Oh, but you must just have faith!’ then how can I decide which I should give my faith to?

If I was to become a Christian Methodist I would only be doing so because my parents were, and I was brought into the church as a child. If I was born in Tibet I’d probably be a Buddhist. If I was born in some parts of India then I could have found myself a follower of Hinduism, and if in others then I’d find myself something else. If I was born on the island of Tanna then I’d probably think that Prince Phillip is my god. If I was born thousands of years ago, and in Athens, then Athena, Zeus and Hephaestus (and many other gods) would be a part of my life.

So out of the thousands of years of human-consciousness which has seen a smorgasbord of deities of all sorts of characters and properties (a lot of which have had a local-quality to them), am I to just assume, big-headedly, that the religion that my parents had, and the people I went to church with as a child, is the correct one? The only one that got it right? I can’t commit to that idea at all and it just doesn’t seem true.

I’ve visited churches, cathedrals, mosques and have been lucky to have visited the ruins of ancient temples. A lot of these places certainly have a character, and if you are a dramatic dude like myself you might even pick up an ‘energy’ from them, but I’ve not felt anything which has spoken out to me to suggest that I should take up that cult. I’ve not had a calling. I’ve spoken to people of various faiths, mainly as people rather than as holders-of-faith, and I find a lot to respect in them, or at least perhaps because they can give off a positive energy. I have noted the therapeutic benefits of religious beliefs, but atheists and agnostics can also reach a spiritual-state of sorts, or attain a happiness and self-assurance by some means.

So yeah… I’m agnostic in the sense that I do not know if a deity exists or not. I sure hope so, but I sure have not been given a sign from said deity. If that’s not meant to happen and I’m meant to make a firm decision on my own and just worship something, then I seriously cannot make that decision. If I was to worship God and then find out that the Greek gods were real after all then that would be embarrassing. If I was to take to the worship of the Greek gods then I’d be called a nutter, for people don’t seriously do that sort of thing these days. I also don’t really believe in the existence of deities in the way in which we depict and describe them. They are reflections of us rather than vice versa, and if deities do exist I believe that they’d probably be something quite different (which have been interpreted in various different ways over the ages if we were to suggest that man has communicated with them).

I guess that’s the main personal reason for me, but there are many reasons why I can’t firmly attach myself to a religion (I focused on the deities themselves rather than the morals, the texts and the practices), though I’m not an atheist, and am certainly not one of the fierce-faced and angry sort that want to attack religion constantly.
 
I don't see why a lot of people arriving at the same conclusion via similar thought processes, is indicative of simply conforming. If ten people touch a fence, get an electric shock, and conclude independently that it's an electrified fence, would you then claim they are clearly only copying what the others said?

When someone comes up with a great example or analogy, it makes sense to use it rather than using an inferior example of your own. In maths you use established formulae and proofs rather than deriving everything yourself. This doesn't mean you lack a capacity for thought, you are simply using the wheel rather than reinventing it

I also find it weird that you have that problem with atheism, but almost all religion comes from approximately five ancient texts. Rather than read some musty books written years ago(which by your own admission have outdated contents), why not go out and experience or find God for yourself?


:elmo:

Well, do you know what Fox News is or how americans make fun of it? :ohshit:

Imagine a group of individuals. All of them fall under a category of 'conservative'. They watch Fox News and it is their only source of information and political analysis.

As a result of this, all share the same views and opinions.

I wouldn't say that any of them were necessarily capable of thinking outside the box or independent thought. It may be more accurate to say they're people who found someone to tell them what to think and believe. Its a generalization of course. I don't think Fox News deserves its atrocious reputation. But, there is a type of blind leading the blind mentality present which allows for many conservatives to blindly believe in the concept of social program budget cutting being a valid perspective.

If atheists are guilty of the same behavior and blindly believe in things Richard Dawkins and other atheists say simply because it sounds intuitive and like a reasonable explanation for things...

I don't see a difference between atheists who copypasta and religious conservatives who watch Fox News.

I wouldn't accept a religious conservative who takes all their views from Fox News & is unwilling to look at perspectives outside their self-interests as someone who is an individual or free thinker.

I don't see a reason to show favortism towards atheists who engage in the same behavior.

edit: I should mention it might be normal for people to function like zombies on some level and seek out someone to tell them what they should think or believe. Maybe that is healthy and normal behavior which everyone engages in. Its possible I'm abnormal or weird for thinking that things should be different.

But, if the topic is religion being a negative influence simply because of people being unwilling to question things religious leaders tell them. Then, I think it is not religion which should be blamed but rather the human tendency for people to be unwilling to question their beliefs and their point of view and also people blindly believing in things official sources: priests, scientists, politicians tell them.
 
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If there is a god I don't expect it to be anything like those described in the various religions. I personally choose not to believe in a supreme being though as it doesn't benefit me to do so; nor do I particularly care if one does exist. I'm inclined to take the world as I see it. As such the concept of a god is absurd to me.

As for the gods described in religions like Catholicism etc.. I can't see myself believing in any of them anytime soon. I view religion as a method for maintaining social order that as been utilized by the elite classes throughout history. I put it in the same league as ideas like liberalism, nationalism, communism etc etc.. as a way to develop a common sense of identity which may or may not have existed before.
 
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