Cloud's Love Triangle - The LTD of FFVII

soldier first class said:

That's interesting. I wasn't claiming that she wasn't but that maybe there was a possibility. Regardless Cloud needs to hook up with Tifa. I mean who else is there?

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I wasn't aware that the entire human race had vanished and Cloud had to go with Tifa cuz she was the last woman on earth

I thought you were claiming that since you said "I'm not sure that Aeris/Aerith was the default date that night." which gave me the impression you didn't have reason to believe she was default. Hence my post

Also, there's Yuffie. The girl who has a lot in common with him. Or... any other woman on their planet.

I'm not sure I would like the idea of Cloud getting with Tifa solely because she was all that was there, as if she was second best. :l

c a l i l i l y said:

I wasn't aware that the entire human race had vanished and Cloud had to go with Tifa cuz she was the last woman on earth

I thought you were claiming that since you said "I'm not sure that Aeris/Aerith was the default date that night." which gave me the impression you didn't have reason to believe she was default. Hence my post

Also, there's Yuffie. The girl who has a lot in common with him. Or... any other woman on their planet.

I'm not sure I would like the idea of Cloud getting with Tifa solely because she was all that was there, as if she was second best. :l

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Well my theory on it is that she really has a thing for Cloud. You can see it in the game and in AC. Plus the fact that Cloud liked her as a child makes sense too. So if not already hinted in AC (and I think it was) I believe they will get together in the next installment of the compilation should there be one. It just seems to perfect rather than introduce a new character or let Cloud get with Yuffie. I mean, she's just a little trickster thief right? She'll steal his virginity and run away lol.

HighwindPilot said:

[FONT=&quot]I’d say it was a *little* more than that. He based his future around getting her to notice him. You can talk about all the behind-the-scene boys in Nibelheim who allegedly did something like this, but Cloud’s desperation in this matter is made evident when they dive into his past. People do a lot of stupid things for crushes; enlisting isn’t one of them. [/FONT]

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That is nice and all, but the creators clearly stated it was a dim crush. You could feel differently, but canon-wise...it was a dim crush. :/

Kids do stupid things for crushes, and so do teenagers. Enlisting doesn't prove it was more than a crush. There isn't anything argue this point, since it came from the mouths of the creators.

HighwindPilot said:

[FONT=&quot]What’s your point? I (and Tifa) confirmed that she didn’t know him much growing up.[/FONT]

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So generally when you are ignored (drastically) during your dim crush, it doesn't stay, especially when you enlist and don't see her again until you are 20 something years old.

HighwindPilot said:

[FONT=&quot]Cloud is going off to join SOLDIER to get Tifa to notice him. You don’t think this is something that he would *want*? Might he not want to stand in front of his child-hood desire as her protector, fat sword in hand, in uniform, while flexing his guns? Whether it was “forced” or not is not what’s important, it’s what it meant to him that is. I’d speculate that his hesitance to make the promise was based around his *well-known* insecurity and self-doubt in response to such a heavy ordeal. [/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]This was all done spur of a moment based on a dim crush for a girl that paid him no attention. Crushes can do that, but they are just that -- crushes.
[/FONT]

HighwindPilot said:

[FONT=&quot]Read back at the post I responded to. The poster implied that Tifa wanted these things from a famous Cloud. My point is that when it came down to it Cloud’s prestige didn’t make a difference to her. He attempts to bring up his shortcomings as a means to say he can’t keep the promise and she quickly brushes it aside and compromises with a line about making SOLDIER, something she knew he didn’t do. Why? So he wouldn’t give up on their promise. [/FONT]

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If the poster implied, its because the game implied. She didn't pay him any attention when he wasn't famous or whatnot, but later when he is she gives him all the attention she can possibly give. Its really fishy, if you ask me.
[FONT=&quot]
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HighwindPilot said:

[FONT=&quot]So because other guys showed interest in her, Cloud’s is made insignificant? Explain how that works.[/FONT]

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Not insignificant himself (all the other boys had a crush on her too, so their feelings are obviously insignificant as well), just a dim crush. Explain how it works? How a dim crush works? Well dim means weak, and a crush is something you have, fleetingly, for another person that disperses as you age.
[FONT=&quot]
Definition of the noun "crush":
[/FONT]

15. Informal . a.
an intense but usually short-lived infatuation.
b. the object of such an infatuation: Who is your latest crush?

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HighwindPilot said:

[FONT=&quot]Furthermore, I never said it was love, though I’d venture to say it’s greater than a crush as well. It’s important to their relationship because it defines their roots and history. However, if you’re questioning its existence in this conversation understand that I was responding to what I feel are incorrect points by another poster regarding its importance.[/FONT]

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~Definition of Dim~

HighwindPilot said:

Let me stop you here, because this is where you’re trailing outside the script into what is purely your own fabrication. You’re taking something that’s described as a new feeling and inflating it in an attempt to revise their entire history. That doesn’t work because nothing said in this supersedes the countless romantic implications on her part made throughout FFVII. You know what a glaring difference is between her situation and Quistis’? Quistis’ confusion is directly clarified, and no such thing is done for Tifa in her novella.

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Actually....Tifa says she has a motherly love for Cloud, Quistis says she didn't love Squall. :/

Not fabrication at all.

HighwindPilot said:

Having said that, the meaning of the mother simile isn’t all that clear to begin with, so its isolation is this thread is amusing. Don’t get me wrong, I can understand the assessment that Tifa is beginning to see Cloud in a motherly light, but it is by no means a definite one. Not when she later lays awake pondering his feelings for her and asking if he loves her. Deeper into the story she even perceives Cloud as a father to both Marlene and Denzel.

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Its clear when you read the part where Tifa talks about her motherly feelings for Cloud.

So motherly feelings doesn't mean motherly, or are you saying motherly feelings towards one person can also have romantic feelings towards that one person?

So? Just because she perceives Cloud as a father doesn't mean it makes them a couple, nor does it mean there is anything romantic between the two.

HighwindPilot said:

Now it’s a well-known fact that she views Marlene as a daughter, so if she’s taken on the role as a mother to Cloud then that makes her what? Marlene’s grandmother? Or could it just be that her motherly traits show through in the way that she deals with Cloud? Qualities that are not uncommon in women in relationships, and frankly, are said to be possessed by both Tifa and Aeris (whose had her own maternal comparison in AC) in Reunion Files. Finally, Tifa still references the idea of a “real family” with Cloud in AC, meaning she clearly hasn’t given up on such a relationship with him.

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So because they take the responsibility of looking after children in the roles of parents, the two love it each...? Do you know how many people raise children who don't love it other? They may not love each other, but Tifa and Cloud aren't monsters. Of course they would give children that kind of attention, especially when Marlenblahblah's father is off working.

HighwindPilot said:

He attempts to leave her in the middle of the night. Booty-Calls get treated with better respect than that. What greater effort do you need? I’d get to talking about how lousy it’d be from both a writing and gaming standpoint to actually implement scenes of Cloud attempting to take her home but I realize you want to speak for their reality so I’ll spare that. No, with the exception of trying to leave her in the middle of the night, he didn’t do a whole lot to try to get rid of her, but what was he really supposed to do when she shows up where she knows he’ll be anyway? Telling her to go home virtually every step of the way was a pretty straight-forward alternative. I know I wouldn’t tell someone that so often if I actually want them around.

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Oh come on now, say why he left her in the middle of the night. Don't leave out the big reason.

He left her because he didn't want to involve her in danger (since its clear you won't mention why), but Aerith is a stubborn young lady and would not take no as an answer.

So you believe, honestly, he told her to go home....because he didn't want her around? Well oh my!

HighwindPilot said:

On a side-note, you cite Cloud’s supposed lack of objection towards Aeris’ company here but fail to mention that Tifa “forcing” Cloud into *the promise* merely took repeating the proposal; funny.

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Just like how you did not mention why Cloud tried to leave Aerith behind in her house and then insisted on material that never even existed (doing it because he didn't want her around). Funny, isn't it?

HighwindPilot said:

[FONT=&quot]And I love how you continue to make an example of Cloud’s declarations to Tifa and the rest of AVALANCHE. Yeah, that’s all good, but you know what speaks even louder than that? His actions. In the spirit of “not trying hard”, [FONT=&quot] Tifa sure got him to come back inside pretty quick, let alone the fact that he signed on to the mission for an entire 1k gil less than what he asked for without even a rebuttal. And while the dialogue was optional, certain interactions that could be chosen with the members of Avalanche were more than telling. These things wouldn’t even have been written in if they weren’t meant to show a potentially early confliction in Cloud’s character. And I point all this out to say that he clearly wasn’t as hard-edged as he put up, just like in his childhood. [/FONT][/FONT]

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The point that I think you are missing that she meant (feel free to correct me, Tori) is that he wasn't willing to help them first-chance. Yea, in the end he did. The point is that he was more than willing first chance to jump onto the hero wagon to save a girl he had just met.

HighwindPilot said:

That doesn’t help your case, nor does it change the fact that they spent the time talking about her ex.

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What does talking about her ex mean to you exactly, or your point? What could you possibly build off of it? People can't talk about their ex when they love another person? You do know that people who love each other, talk about their ex(s) all the time? And if you meant it in a way that Aerith still loves Zack and that's why she was talking about him, that's wrong.

We already established by official word that Aerith loves Cloud romantically and more than Zack, so that's down. So now, by this point in the game, Cloud is interested whether or not she's dating or had serious relationships in the past.

Men who ask that only ask it for one reason (if she's free or not).

HighwindPilot said:

It’s interesting that a shaky scene with Aeris is “up to mere opinion”, but you so adamantly attempt to clearly define any ambiguous quote or scene regarding Tifa.

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Because many (if not all) of those "ambiguous" scenes are described by officials as dim, motherly love, etc or don't have any romantic themes to it at all. Its all merely based on assumption (a.k.a the Highwind scene).

HighwindPilot said:

I don’t mean this offensively, but have you ever been on a date? It’s usually defined by both figures involved and meant with romantic attempt (in its traditional sense). They were on their way to Sector 6 and stopped off at the playground. And honestly, you talk about Tifa strong-arming Cloud into a promise but make no mention of the fact that Aeris rushed a seemingly reluctant Cloud into joining her?

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I think everyone knows that a date is usually defined as having two peoples in it, regardless of whether they have dated or not.

Funny, I didn't see any reluctance in Cloud about the date he won from Aerith.

HighwindPilot said:

If it is a date, it ranks among the worst in any history.

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Worst in history? As opposed to the imagined love during the Highwind scene...? Or a the stronger you say but dimly said by officials, crush? Or a motherly love?

Might be the date is horrible to you, but luckily the world's standards for a date isn't set by you. Lastly, whether or not it was a horrible date, it is still a date nonetheless.

HighwindPilot said:

[FONT=&quot]“Cloud ‘This is SOME underwear.... I'm supposed to wear this...? Well, if it's to save Tifa... I guess there's no way around.’" Yeeeah…okay, argue with the game’s script more for the sake of your preference, please. [/FONT]

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I think you are confused. She's not arguing the game script's (though you have countless time, even the creator's word... :/).

Cloud only dressed up, though, as a woman because Aerith announced she was going in alone and Cloud did not want her in there alone.

HighwindPilot said:

This is self-contradictory; if he felt he could have busted in to save Tifa why would he even worry about Aeris going in the whore-house alone?

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No its not a self-contradictory.

Because Aerith isn't Tifa and Cloud showed worry for Aerith going places alone and doing dangerous things...alone. Remember the slums? He didn't want her going for the EXACT reason lol

Tifa can handle herself, its part of the reason why she's a cool STRONG character.

HighwindPilot said:

I agree that his desire to keep Aeris protected at this point is made evident but they are ultimately there to save Tifa; she is the priority here.

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Cloud and Aerith see Tifa heading to Don Blah blah > Cloud decides to help Tifa (from Don! Remember, he saved Yuffie too lol) > Cloud can't get in and only Aerith can > Aerith decides to go in > Cloud decides he doesn't want Aerith in their alone > Cloud dresses up as a woman to help Aerith > together they save Tifa.

HighwindPilot said:

At this time I’ll also address another thing related to both previous and upcoming points: If Cloud really couldn’t care less about AVALANCHE, Shinra, Tifa, or anything else, why does he positively agree to help her with Sector 7 upon her mere request at Don's? No money involved, no hesitation or any other thought; she asked and he obliged.

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She's not saying Cloud doesn't care about them, he just didn't at first and was really reluctant to help without money (the game states this). He met Aerith, wanted to help her for free etc etc.

HighwindPilot said:

Actually, after reading the Dismantled quote I agree that it clearly is personal (it’s not as straight-forward in the game). Now does Dismantled provide any reasoning? Because I’m thinking guilt, which is a common theme in Cloud’s character, is a large aspect of it. He didn’t want her accompanying him in the first place, largely due to the dangers involved. So when she does and even aids them in doing so, how do you imagine he would feel? Given the context that’s more than fair.

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Tori answered this, so I don't need to.

HighwindPilot said:

Then you’re vastly ignoring context. On the other hand, I admit that it was as much about Aeris as anything else, though that still doesn’t speak of a romantic or affectionate perspective.

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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....okay.

HighwindPilot said:

I have no idea what the hell you’re arguing here, or who you’re arguing with. When did I ever discuss his “true mentality” in my previous post? Still, I will take this time to suggest that your view of his mentality is rather short-sighted. Look back over the Lifestream scene if you need to recall *why* he is that way.

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Wow, no need for the 'tute or swear words man, its just a debate.

Actually...you sorta did comment about his "original" mentality:

"His devil-may-care attitude is brought up as a means to show a contrast between his original mentality and his sudden motivation to act, but let’s think that over.

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If you hadn't meant it in that way, maybe you can clarify?

HighwindPilot said:

[FONT=&quot]Oh dear, all I can suggest here is to take a marketing or even an economics course if it’s really necessary. Commercial advertisements are not faithfully chained to the product. In fact, many of them manipulate the material and information they’re given to make the product seem more appealing than it may be; it’s the marketers’ jobs to do so. Hell, the same commercials you’re referring to show *nothing* but fully-animated cut-scenes throughout its entirety. So by your logic that we should identify Cloud and Aeris as lovers based on what the commercial presents us, we should also expect the entire game to be comprised of cut-scene quality gameplay right? Oh, wait… It’s not the idea of finding “CxA” attractive, it’s the idea that the image quality is attractive and that happens to be an opportune scene to tack “love” onto, which ultimately speaks to the game’s intricacy and thus makes it more appealing. [/FONT]

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No, they can't manipulate commercials, that's false advertisement (well, they could find some legal ways..), which SE would have then cut if they felt it was advertising their game incorrectly. Its called "bait and switch"...which is illegal for a lot of governments, who hold regulations against it. But let's ignore that factor for now.

So they made the game look more appealing (by breaking the law) by saying these two characters -- whom no one knows of yet -- love each other to a fanbase that didn't exist yet? I'm sorry...but that makes no sense.

Its not really an argument saying "oh well, they could have forged/manipulated it" or "they did it for game appeal" when nothing really supports it.


*Sorry for any errors -- if I didn't make sense, please state so and I will rephrase *

^^^ that was too long for even me to read. But my main question for you fans out there is...do you see Cloud and Tifa tieing the knot or whatever? I do personally. If FFVII has any future at all I see something happening next.

Well... I think Tifa really knows how to bully Cloud into doing other stuff than looking cool all the time. So maybe she can do so again to get them together

Too bad Aeris is gone. I pitch her in Cloud's way everytime...
(Or go after her myself ^^)

DarkFuture said:

Well... I think Tifa really knows how to bully Cloud into doing other stuff than looking cool all the time. So maybe she can do so again to get them together

Too bad Aeris is gone. I pitch her in Cloud's way everytime...
(Or go after her myself ^^)

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lol both would seem to be attractive if they were real. But I think it was effed up to boot out Aeris/Aerith right after things with Cloud were moving along. But maybe Cloud will find his way to Tifa. If you watch AC again there are hints to it.

yep... all hints no action on that side of their story haha Though Aeris always seems to keep reaching to Cloud spiritually... Can't leave him alone I guess, lucky guy.

Did you know? When I watched Aeris die in the game, I thought:
"What? How'd she die? I have like 99 Phoenix Downs in my inventory!?"

Anyway, to keep this thread in the debate mannerism, I'd like to add this to my post; No, Cloud and Tifa have not and thanks to information in recently circulated interviews and novellas will not be married, in the newest compilation additions DoC and CoD Cloud and Tifa still aren't together after all.

Tori said:

Anyway, to keep this thread in the debate mannerism, I'd like to add this to my post; No, Cloud and Tifa have not and thanks to information in recently circulated interviews and novellas will not be married, in the newest compilation additions DoC and CoD Cloud and Tifa still aren't together after all.

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Well at least not yet perhaps. But I think that could be something that they toy with for a little bit until the last installment comes into play. Tifa would make a great pair with Cloud. Just saying.

^That sort of post is considered a chit chat post, I believe.

Actually, I don't see any evidence that supports the idea that Tifa would make a "great pair" with Cloud. I'm not sure if you said that remark intending it to be debated or if it's just your opinion. But I feel the need, since this IS a debate thread, to refute that.

For example. It's Cloud and Aerith who were said to be perfect for each other. Cait Sith's fortunes have "deep meanings" behind them and he predicted that Cloud and Aerith are perfect for each other and that their stars show a great future with one another. He also went on to say that they would have ended up getting married, had she lived.

I know, you're probably going to say something like... "Cait's predictions aren't always right" or "so what, he didn't know Aerith would die so obviously he's wrong about their happy ever after ending, too."

Here are the quotes I discussed above.


Omega Page 151, the marked tidbit explaining CS's last fortune telling.
The last fortune telling from Cat Sith No. 1.
After solving the puzzle about Cat Sith's replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith's affinity.

The result of it turns out " Aerith-san's star and Cloud-san's star! They promise a great future!" After that, it will become a sad prediction if we get to know what would happen afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope.....perhaps.
Caption:
Cat Sith's lines which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding now makes it more painful.
_____________________

Page120, the marked one
The fortune telling with deep meaning.
Cait Sith’s divination about the direction toward Sephiroth turns out three consequences. Disregard the previous two, the noticeable one is the third result which becomes the chance for him to follow the party—“What you’re looking for would be yours, but you’ll lose something very dear.”

As the storyline moves on to the event of Forgotten City, the “something very dear” can be read as losing Aerith, and it also hint the event of Cloud’s reaching his self breakdown when the story goes to the Northern Crater.


However, even if you disregard the fact that Cait Sith predicts that not only Cloud and Aerith are a match made in heaven but that they will get married and that Aerith's death is more sad because that prediction cannot come true---the point of the matter is SE thought that it was needed to put this sort of scene into the game. Why? why tell us that Cloud and Aerith's stars are perfect for each other or that they have an affinity and a marriage prediction then say that her death is more sad because all of this is destroyed? Why do that if not to foreshadow romantic possibility between Cloud and Aerith?

More importantly, why say this sort of stuff about Cloud and Aerith when supposedly it's Cloud and Tifa who are perfect for each other? Makes no sense.

So in this sense, you might hold an opinion that Cloud and Tifa are the perfect pair, but in reality it's Cloud and Aerith who are perfect for each other. As stated by Nomura and SE.

There's also this other quote to help me prove my point.

Nojima interview quote about On The Way To A Smile:
"Episode Tifa"... first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don't really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith. Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa's eyes. But he really isn't the type to open up (laughs).

See this quote? It clearly states that things aren't going well between Tifa and Cloud and that even without geostigma and Sephiroth those same problems might still exist. The quote later implies that those problems will exist after advent children complete and that he "guesses" Denzel and Marlene COULD help them. That's not only a lotta ifs and woulda-couldas it's telling us that Cloud and Tifa face a lot of troubles even after the ending of AC. That, to me, indicates that they have problems in every part of their life while living in the same house.

Now, Nojima does say towards the end of the quote that MAYBE things would have gone well with Aerith but that there is a burden from her. Since Aerith's death has always been troublesome for Cloud, I feel it's safe to assume that the burden spoken of in relation to Aerith is talking about her death. And I agree with Mr. Nojima. Aerith's death is a great burden, especially on Cloud and Aerith's romantic relationship.

I understand what you're saying and the proof that you have backing it up 100%. The only thing that concerns me is that what now? I mean everyone likes to see the hero get the girl too right? Well Aeris/Aerith is dead now. So, the only way for them to be together is to have them float around in the lifestream I suppose right? So what would become of Tifa then? It's like they played it off to make it where Cloud would basically have to end up with one of them. Aeris was perfect for Cloud perhaps but wouldn't that be with the "fake" Cloud as opposed to the real one? I mean he was basically portraying Zack the majority of the time and that's who she was with originally so it really makes sense right? I think so at least. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Tifa at least kinda knew the real Cloud and Aeris and Cait Sith only knew the false Cloud at the time. So that kinda makes me look at things in a different perspective.

Where to start...

soldier first class said:

The only thing that concerns me is that what now? I mean everyone likes to see the hero get the girl too right?

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In Cloud's case... he gets second choice-Tifa just because Aerith is dead? Sorry, that's so wrong. Nothing says Tifa is the one Cloud gets with. Ever. Nor does the story say Cloud needs to be with anyone. He might die in the next installment. What then?

soldier first class said:

Well Aeris/Aerith is dead now.

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So was Tidus, but Yuna continued to love him. For two years no less. Identical time that Cloud and Aerith have been separated physically.

soldier first class said:

So, the only way for them to be together is to have them float around in the lifestream I suppose right?

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That's what Marlene's biological parents are doing and they're in love. And who knows what lies ahead for the story of FFVII. Nomura SE could do anything.

soldier first class said:

So what would become of Tifa then?

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Who knows. who cares. Just because Cloud being with Aerith makes Tifa a sob story doesn't mean that two people should throw away their happiness solely because Tifa feels bad about it. And as CoT shows, Tifa's moved on from her feelings for Cloud. She's now happy with the motherly feelings she has towards him. So maybe Johnny and Tifa can hit it up someday. Or heck, maybe the father of her adopted child, Marlene, will be the one she settles down with. Yeah, Barret is a plausible choice.

soldier first class said:

It's like they played it off to make it where Cloud would basically have to end up with one of them.

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So, again, Tifa's second choice?

soldier first class said:

Aeris was perfect for Cloud perhaps but wouldn't that be with the "fake" Cloud as opposed to the real one? I mean he was basically portraying Zack the majority of the time and that's who she was with originally so it really makes sense right? I think so at least.

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No. No it would not be with the "Fake Cloud" He was not portraying Zack during the time he knew Aerith, either. If he was, he would have called himself Zack Fair of Gongaga not Cloud Strife of Nibelhiem. If Cloud was portraying Zack as his personality, Cloud would be a lot more happy-go-lucky. Cloud, as we know, is a bit of a dick in the beginning of the game. If you honestly believe that Zack would tell people to "blow off" or that he doesn't care for the planet, people's names or stories, and then take a child's school money, you are sadly mistaken.

Cloud did, however, take Zack's occupational legacy. Things like being a first class soldier, situations Zack was involved in. Aerith didn't know Cloud's past, she knew him as a person. And she's stated in Maiden of the planet, an official novela released by SE that she still loves Cloud much more even after she learns that Cloud was taking the legacy of Zack.

soldier first class said:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Tifa at least kinda knew the real Cloud and Aeris and Cait Sith only knew the false Cloud at the time. So that kinda makes me look at things in a different perspective.

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Tifa didn't know Cloud either.

The first time he ever spoke to her was the night at the well. That was the ONLY time either of them said a word to each other ever. After the strong-armed promise, Cloud leaves for soldier, to which they don't speak to each other for years. In a matter of fact, the very first time Cloud and Tifa even start to hang out as comrades was the beginning of FFVII, which would mean Tifa got to only know the "fake" Cloud, as you put it. Tifa herself says during the lifestream scene in VII that it was true her and Cloud WEREN'T that close.

Tifa: "It's true that we weren't THAT close, but..."

If Tifa admits it, it's time everyone in the fandom does as well.

So if you say the feelings Cloud and Aerith developed are null and void because Cloud was the "fake Cloud", that means Tifa's feelings are too.

^^^Interesting points you made. I remember now how Cloud and Tifa didn't really know each other THAT well but still. I think I'm looking at it in a realistic perspective to be honest. I have my own opinions on the matter but like you said...we'll see what SE does. They turn things around and burn people's asses up all the time so who knows. By the way, what's this Maiden of the Planet business???

What do you mean realistic perspective? mine is realistic. I'm not sure if your realistic comment was intended to be about Cloud moving on or what... but,

Sure, realistically, a man in the real world would move on after losing the love of their life. But... Cloud doesn't live in the real world. He lives in a realm of fantasy and magic. Where magic meteors try to destroy the world, where spirits flow together in streams. A world where people can cast fire, ice, poison from their bodies all thanks to magic crystals.

Again, did Yuna move on after she went two years of being separated from Tidus? No. She continued to love him. What about Shuyin and Lenne... they loved each other even though they were apart. And Marlene's biological parents continued to love only each other, as well. And I do believe Barret hasn't moved on either. :/

If Marlene's parents, Barret, Shuyin/Lenne, and Tidus and Yuna continue their love even though they were apart for years and years... why should any of us believe that Cloud will move on from Aerith because it's "realistic"??

And for that matter, IF Cloud does decide to "move on"--who says it has to be Tifa he gets with? It could be Yuffie. It could be some girl he's ever delivered stuff to. It can be anyone on the planet. It doesn't have to be Tifa. And I see no proof that he would get with her either. Especially since in Case of Denzel (which takes place two years after AC) Cloud and Tifa still aren't together, let alone "happily married".

I just can't believe that Cloud would be around the "love of his life" (Tifa) for... 5 years (plus the "background" they had) and he and her still aren't together.

&

Maiden of the Planet is a novella written by a major writer for SE, Benny Matsuyama and published by Square enix. Benny Matsuyama wrote the novella under Nomura's (lead developer now) supervision. It focuses on Aerith in the lifestream before advent children takes place and it delves into Aerith's feelings, thoughts, and situations that went on after her death. You can read it here.

Cloud x Aeris is a theme of unrequited love.

There's something mystical and mysterious about a lover who is always one step out of reach. How good or bad it could have been is left up to someone's imagination. You have the poetic and romantic chance encounter -- random flower girl meets random bad boy. The sense of destinies being intertwined and there being broadband cosmic and higher forces at work.

But from a more pragmatic point of view, Aeris is the ultimate Final Fantasy tease and cockblock rolled up into one. She exits a mortal plane of existence & spends the remainder of her time evermore teasing and tantilizing Cloud's senses from a great distance being unobtainable while flirting with Zack.

As cruel as it may be in practice I can appreciate the potential romance present.

Tifa is moreso a childhood friend with a potential to blossom into later life romance. She realizes the male gender despite its superficial simplistic overtones can be a very complex and multi-faceted animal. And she respects the human condition based burden having a penis and raging hormones exacts upon a man.

Tifa seems content to allow Cloud to work through his early life crush on Aeris and resolve his unrequited emotions before moving on. There may be love there, ahoy, but it is a stealthed love.

Yuffie is just using Cloud for his materia. But there is always the chance oncoming puberty and hormone rage could develop into something more than an innocent and mischievious relationship, maybe? Japan loves its school girls and the age of sexual consent in parts of Japan is 13-14 (12 with parent or guardians signed form of consent, if I remember right). And so perhaps Japan would favor this pairing.

This is fun to talk about. lol

Richard B Riddick said:

Cloud x Aeris is a theme of unrequited love.

There's something mystical and mysterious about a lover who is always one step out of reach. How good or bad it could have been is left up to someone's imagination. You have the poetic and romantic chance encounter -- random flower girl meets random bad boy. The sense of destinies being intertwined and there being broadband cosmic and higher forces at work.

But from a more pragmatic point of view, Aeris is the ultimate Final Fantasy tease and cockblock rolled up into one. She exits a mortal plane of existence & spends the remainder of her time evermore teasing and tantilizing Cloud's senses from a great distance being unobtainable while flirting with Zack.

As cruel as it may be in practice I can appreciate the potential romance present.

Tifa is moreso a childhood friend with a potential to blossom into later life romance. She realizes the male gender despite its superficial simplistic overtones can be a very complex and multi-faceted animal. And she respects the human condition based burden having a penis and raging hormones exacts upon a man.

Tifa seems content to allow Cloud to work through his early life crush on Aeris and resolve his unrequited emotions before moving on. There may be love there, ahoy, but it is a stealthed love.

Yuffie is just using Cloud for his materia. But there is always the chance oncoming puberty and hormone rage could develop into something more than an innocent and mischievious relationship, maybe? Japan loves its school girls and the age of sexual consent in parts of Japan is 13-14 (12 with parent or guardians signed form of consent, if I remember right). And so perhaps Japan would favor this pairing.

This is fun to talk about. lol

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for bringing Zack up. That reminded me of something. SOOOO.....if Aeris and Cloud really are destined to be together while she's in the lifestream and Cloud is in the living world, then why does she hang out with Zack? I mean, him and her were together and she never truly understood the details about what happened to him. Until now I assume. So what's the deal there? Aeris is a ho!!!

First off, if you don't get back to my counter I'm going to take it as though you forfeiting this debate. So please, get back no matter how long my post will be.

Richard B Riddick said:

Cloud x Aeris is a theme of unrequited love.

Click to expand...

No, as stated by Square Enix Cloud and Aerith are...

"A story of a Love that could never be"
"A bitter war of love and hate"
and "Une histoire d'amour impossible" french for "an impossible love story"

All of those were said to and about Cloud and Aerith in the official commercials.

So... where is there unrequited love, again?

And, please, don't start with the commercials not being canon or true.

You're probably going to say

"Commercials show false things all the time. This doesn't mean it's true."

While commercials for items like toys or gadgets can show (sometimes) false advertisement. Games, final fantasy series to be exact, are a completely different story.

For instance, when X's commercial shows Tidus and Yuna as love interest is that false advertisement? Of course not. What about Squall and Rinoa when they're portrayed as love interests in the commercial? And, heck, let's throw in Zidane and Garnet from IX as well, shall we. Are those commercials false when they show the love between them?

Exactly, no they're not.

So, if those commercials are held as canon and true to the story why should we believe that VII's commercial is the only one that's showing "false" information.

That said, if the English commercial is false... why and how could Square Enix pump out this commercial in not only one or two, but three different commercials for several different countries??? If it held ANY false information I'm pretty dang sure SE(Soft) would have stopped the production of these commercials. And on that note, you do realize that this is their very own money and resources they're using to create these very same commercials right? They had to have known what were said in them... which means, they APPROVED of the message held within them.

Proving even more that these commercials single-handedly proved Cloud and Aerith's love before there were even a Cloti side.

Richard B Riddick said:

But from a more pragmatic point of view, Aeris is the ultimate Final Fantasy tease and cockblock rolled up into one.

Click to expand...

Not counting Yuna and Tidus, right? Because Tidus being dead for two years really stopped Yuna from continuing her love for him, right?

Richard B Riddick said:

She exits a mortal plane of existence & spends the remainder of her time evermore teasing and tantilizing Cloud's senses from a great distance being unobtainable

Click to expand...

Teasing Cloud? You do realize it's Cloud that RUNS towards her, right? It was Cloud who chose to live in HER church. It was Cloud that chose to want HER forgiveness more than anything else. And it was Cloud who said to Tifa that he wants to be with Aerith in his place of supreme happiness.

Richard B Riddick said:

while flirting with Zack.

Click to expand...

She doesn't flirt with, Zack Nomura AND Aerith have said plenty of times that Aerith is in love with Cloud and is over Zack completely. She even told Zack in Maiden of the planet that she was through with him.

"At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack." - DISMANTLED

See, by the time the gang gets to Zack's hometown she's already saying she's more in love with Cloud than she ever was with Zack.

Richard B Riddick said:

As cruel as it may be in practice I can appreciate the potential romance present.

Click to expand...

Of who? Tifa and Barret? Because that's got a better leg to stand on then Cloud/Tifa. As I stated above, Cloud and Tifa mesh together as good as nails in cereal does. Not yummy. At least with Barret/Tifa, we actually have some history. I mean, Tifa rubs Barret's feet, cooks him meals, takes care of HIS daughter as her own, and lest we forget that it was Barret and Tifa who originally lived together. And it was Barret who started the family in the first place.

Richard B Riddick said:

Tifa is moreso a childhood friend

Click to expand...

Tifa and Cloud weren't actually childhood friends, though. You know that right?

Richard B Riddick said:

with a potential to blossom into later life romance.

Click to expand...

Hmm, if it didn't happen in AC (two years after Aerith's death) and it didn't happen a year after AC (Dirge of Cerberus) and then they're still not together two years after AC (four years after VII) then I see no reason to ever believe Cloud will develop feelings for her romantically.

I mean, there's more potential of Cloud getting with some unknown woman, rather then with one of his friends in AVALANCHE.

Richard B Riddick said:

She realizes the male gender despite its superficial simplistic overtones can be a very complex and multi-faceted animal. And she respects the human condition based burden having a penis and raging hormones exacts upon a man.

Click to expand...

Whoa, wait a second there. Are you saying in so many fancy words that Tifa is better because Cloud's a man and he'll have to have sex ever so often?? That right?

Richard B Riddick said:

Tifa seems content to allow Cloud to work through his early life crush on Aeris

Click to expand...

Right, that's why she's jealous of Aerith. That's why she gets angry when Cloud visits Aerith's grave. That's why she's angry when she learns that Cloud's living in Aerith's church.

Nomura has said that Tifa is uneasy when it comes to Aerith when in relation to Cloud.

Richard B Riddick said:

and resolve his unrequited emotions before moving on.

Click to expand...

"At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack." - DISMANTLED

So... what's unrequited again?

Richard B Riddick said:

There may be love there, ahoy, but it is a stealthed love.

Click to expand...

stealthed love? Cloud and Aerith both willingly dated. They're both said to be some sort of a love story... Cloud wants to be with Aerith in his promised land... and Aerith admits her love over and over again.

There's no "stealthed love" going on. Cloud and Aerith both having interest in their romantic relationship pops that bubble.

Richard B Riddick said:

Yuffie is just using Cloud for his materia.

Click to expand...

W-h-a-t?!
Using him for materia. She's best friends with Cloud. talk about playing down other relationships Cloud has with others, man.

Richard B Riddick said:

But there is always the chance oncoming puberty and hormone rage could develop into something more than an innocent and mischievious relationship, maybe? Japan loves its school girls and the age of sexual consent in parts of Japan is 13-14 (12 with parent or guardians signed form of consent, if I remember right). And so perhaps Japan would favor this pairing.

This is fun to talk about. lol

Click to expand...

umm, Yuffie's over 18 now. Cloud's only 24 in DoC and Yuffie's 19. That's only a five year difference. Cloud and Yuffie share a lot in common. They both get motion-sickness, they're both cocky, they both cried over Aerith... and they both have the chance of going on a date and kissing.

soldier first class said:

SOOOO.....if Aeris and Cloud really are destined to be together while she's in the lifestream and Cloud is in the living world, then why does she hang out with Zack?

Click to expand...

She doesn't hang out with Zack, though. Zack was at the ending of AC to give support to Cloud. Not cuz he was with Aerith romantically. As proven in Maiden of the planet Aerith practically shoos Zack away when he's around her.

"It's not over yet but, I'm going to sleep for a while. It seems there's nothing I can do just now. But whenever you feel lonely, call me Aerith."

"Only if I get really lonely. Goodnight, Zacks." - Maiden of the Planet

See, he practically asks to hang out with her and she turns him down.

soldier first class said:

I mean, him and her were together and she never truly understood the details about what happened to him. Until now I assume. So what's the deal there? Aeris is a ho!!!

Click to expand...

Again, Nomura and SE has called that a puppy love and Aerith herslef says they never even got intimate

AERITH: "I was a little surprised that this village was Zack's birthplace!

Although called my first love, that doesn't mean that we became particularly intimate. I encountered him by chance as a flower vendor in Midgar. It was good for a little while, so I thought.

A friendly, childish SOLDIER, who gave kindness to girls. I encountered Zack and began to think that even a good natured person was from Shinra.

Therefore, 5 years ago, when Zack departed somewhere on a mission and he seemingly disappeared, I cried considerably. Yeah, I call this first love. Mother got angry at Zack when she saw me like that. That matter made him completely at fault.

At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.

But Cloud is clueless." - DISMANTLED


And dear god, I hope you're kidding about calling Aerith a "ho" for falling in love after ending it with her first light taste of love five years before. That doesn't make her a ho. It means she moved on. That's just... ugh, so demonizing to say in a debate.

And I really hope you're going to get back to my last post, soldier first class. That took some time outta of my foruming and I would at least like a reply.

c a l i l i l y said:

First off, if you don't get back to my counter I'm going to take it as though you forfeiting this debate. So please, get back no matter how long my post will be.


No, as stated by Square Enix Cloud and Aerith are...

"A story of a Love that could never be"
"A bitter war of love and hate"
and "Une histoire d'amour impossible" french for "an impossible love story"

All of those were said to and about Cloud and Aerith in the official commercials.

So... where is there unrequited love, again?

And, please, don't start with the commercials not being canon or true.

You're probably going to say

"Commercials show false things all the time. This doesn't mean it's true."

While commercials for items like toys or gadgets can show (sometimes) false advertisement. Games, final fantasy series to be exact, are a completely different story.

For instance, when X's commercial shows Tidus and Yuna as love interest is that false advertisement? Of course not. What about Squall and Rinoa when they're portrayed as love interests in the commercial? And, heck, let's throw in Zidane and Garnet from IX as well, shall we. Are those commercials false when they show the love between them?

Exactly, no they're not.

So, if those commercials are held as canon and true to the story why should we believe that VII's commercial is the only one that's showing "false" information.

That said, if the English commercial is false... why and how could Square Enix pump out this commercial in not only one or two, but three different commercials for several different countries??? If it held ANY false information I'm pretty dang sure SE(Soft) would have stopped the production of these commercials. And on that note, you do realize that this is their very own money and resources they're using to create these very same commercials right? They had to have known what were said in them... which means, they APPROVED of the message held within them.

Proving even more that these commercials single-handedly proved Cloud and Aerith's love before there were even a Cloti side.



Not counting Yuna and Tidus, right? Because Tidus being dead for two years really stopped Yuna from continuing her love for him, right?





Teasing Cloud? You do realize it's Cloud that RUNS towards her, right? It was Cloud who chose to live in HER church. It was Cloud that chose to want HER forgiveness more than anything else. And it was Cloud who said to Tifa that he wants to be with Aerith in his place of supreme happiness.


She doesn't flirt with, Zack Nomura AND Aerith have said plenty of times that Aerith is in love with Cloud and is over Zack completely. She even told Zack in Maiden of the planet that she was through with him.

"At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack." - DISMANTLED

See, by the time the gang gets to Zack's hometown she's already saying she's more in love with Cloud than she ever was with Zack.


Of who? Tifa and Barret? Because that's got a better leg to stand on then Cloud/Tifa. As I stated above, Cloud and Tifa mesh together as good as nails in cereal does. Not yummy. At least with Barret/Tifa, we actually have some history. I mean, Tifa rubs Barret's feet, cooks him meals, takes care of HIS daughter as her own, and lest we forget that it was Barret and Tifa who originally lived together. And it was Barret who started the family in the first place.



Tifa and Cloud weren't actually childhood friends, though. You know that right?


Hmm, if it didn't happen in AC (two years after Aerith's death) and it didn't happen a year after AC (Dirge of Cerberus) and then they're still not together two years after AC (four years after VII) then I see no reason to ever believe Cloud will develop feelings for her romantically.

I mean, there's more potential of Cloud getting with some unknown woman, rather then with one of his friends in AVALANCHE.


Whoa, wait a second there. Are you saying in so many fancy words that Tifa is better because Cloud's a man and he'll have to have sex ever so often?? That right?


Right, that's why she's jealous of Aerith. That's why she gets angry when Cloud visits Aerith's grave. That's why she's angry when she learns that Cloud's living in Aerith's church.

Nomura has said that Tifa is uneasy when it comes to Aerith when in relation to Cloud.



"At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack." - DISMANTLED

So... what's unrequited again?


stealthed love? Cloud and Aerith both willingly dated. They're both said to be some sort of a love story... Cloud wants to be with Aerith in his promised land... and Aerith admits her love over and over again.

There's no "stealthed love" going on. Cloud and Aerith both having interest in their romantic relationship pops that bubble.


W-h-a-t?!
Using him for materia. She's best friends with Cloud. talk about playing down other relationships Cloud has with others, man.



umm, Yuffie's over 18 now. Cloud's only 24 in DoC and Yuffie's 19. That's only a five year difference. Cloud and Yuffie share a lot in common. They both get motion-sickness, they're both cocky, they both cried over Aerith... and they both have the chance of going on a date and kissing.


She doesn't hang out with Zack, though. Zack was at the ending of AC to give support to Cloud. Not cuz he was with Aerith romantically. As proven in Maiden of the planet Aerith practically shoos Zack away when he's around her.

"It's not over yet but, I'm going to sleep for a while. It seems there's nothing I can do just now. But whenever you feel lonely, call me Aerith."

"Only if I get really lonely. Goodnight, Zacks." - Maiden of the Planet

See, he practically asks to hang out with her and she turns him down.

Again, Nomura and SE has called that a puppy love and Aerith herslef says they never even got intimate

AERITH: "I was a little surprised that this village was Zack's birthplace!

Although called my first love, that doesn't mean that we became particularly intimate. I encountered him by chance as a flower vendor in Midgar. It was good for a little while, so I thought.

A friendly, childish SOLDIER, who gave kindness to girls. I encountered Zack and began to think that even a good natured person was from Shinra.

Therefore, 5 years ago, when Zack departed somewhere on a mission and he seemingly disappeared, I cried considerably. Yeah, I call this first love. Mother got angry at Zack when she saw me like that. That matter made him completely at fault.

At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.

But Cloud is clueless." - DISMANTLED


And dear god, I hope you're kidding about calling Aerith a "ho" for falling in love after ending it with her first light taste of love five years before. That doesn't make her a ho. It means she moved on. That's just... ugh, so demonizing to say in a debate.

And I really hope you're going to get back to my last post, soldier first class. That took some time outta of my foruming and I would at least like a reply.

Click to expand...

Yeah I was actually joking about Aeris being a ho. I have a crazy yet strange sense of humor sometimes. But I understand. I've experienced love once before and I'm not saying it's wrong for her to love Cloud I'm just thinking that it would be weird for Cloud to love a dead woman. It's like necrophilia or something lol. But like you said it isn't a realistic world with realistic ideals. It's all fantasy hence the title right? So sure maybe there is something there. But I'd like to think that Cloud at least gets something real going on before Sephiroth comes back for the 100th time and decides not to be sloppy with his fighting. Plus I'm a Tifa fan. I like her better for a woman for some reason as opposed to Aeris. I think she's great don't get me wrong but something about Tifa just seems down to earth or something.

soldier first class said:

Yeah I was actually joking about Aeris being a ho. I have a crazy yet strange sense of humor sometimes. But I understand. I've experienced love once before and I'm not saying it's wrong for her to love Cloud I'm just thinking that it would be weird for Cloud to love a dead woman. It's like necrophilia or something lol.

Click to expand...

No. It'd be necrophilia if Cloud had an obsession with and usually erotic interest in or stimulation by a corpse. Which he doesn't.

Cloud loved Aerith before she was a "corpse" he'll continue to harbor his love for her until he dies. That doesn't mean he will go around humping her dead soggy body.

I mean, my god. Have you ever seen Good Will Hunting? Robin Williams' character ends up losing his wife to cancer and he tells Matt Damon's character that she was the only one and that he wouldn't move on. Is he a necrophiliac? What about all the people in the world that choose to not remarry if they lose their significant other? Are they necrophiliacs?

Again, I cannot stress this enough, what about Yuna? she loved Tidus for two years after he died??? Is she a necrophiliac?

It seems like you don't know what soul mates are. Soul mates are forever. Nothing, not time, not distance, and not death can break the love and bond that of soul mates. I mean, wolves mate for life. And you know what happens to them when they lose a mate? They never mate again and in some cases the wolves leave their pack to live in solitary or end up letting themselves die.

Sorta reminds me of how after Aerith died, Cloud went to live in the solitude of her church (his promised land) and began to let himself die.

Maybe to you, you need to move on for physical needs. But to Cloud that's his soul mate. He doesn't need the usually empty acts of sex. Sure it's a loving act between two people. But when you love someone so much that love for them turns into something greater than the hunger for sex and you realize you can rise above the need for sex and continue to love no matter what.

But I'm curious. What about if Tifa ever dies? Will you expect Cloud to move on from her as well?? That's not love. It's being with someone hot for their sex.

soldier first class said:

But like you said it isn't a realistic world with realistic ideals. It's all fantasy hence the title right? So sure maybe there is something there. But I'd like to think that Cloud at least gets something real going on before Sephiroth comes back for the 100th time and decides not to be sloppy with his fighting.

Click to expand...

Haha, I can understand that. but maybe for Cloud the something real is having Aerith spiritually. Plus, you know, there is proof he can physically interact with Aerith right?

soldier first class said:

Plus I'm a Tifa fan. I like her better for a woman for some reason as opposed to Aeris. I think she's great don't get me wrong but something about Tifa just seems down to earth or something.

Click to expand...

That's usually a great deal of this debate. She might be the perfect girl... to you. But, I believe there's evidence to show she's not such a perfect fit for Cloud. :/ I just made a post about how wrong Cloud and Tifa are for each other.

Obviously to Cloud, HE prefers Aerith. I mean, Cloud talks of Aerith like he's pretty head over heals in love...

Cloud: "Aerith used to smile like a flower, all the time... But, Aerith won't smile anymore. I won't be able to hear her innocent laugh again. - DISMANTLED

- It's pretty special that Cloud would compare Aerith's smile to a literary symbol of beauty. He then says he won't be able to hear her quote on quote "innocent laugh"--the sentence gives the impression that Cloud cherishes and misses those attributes of her.


Here I met a flower girl.
She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.
Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase.

- Her eyes are impressive? He's calling her eyes... impressive. I'm sorry, that's almost too romantic to deny. And then he says her smile is a good purchase? this is coming from the very same man that forced a father to pay him with his child's school funds. That kind of man is saying a random flower girl's smile is a good purchase? That's so beautiful. T_T

It’s quite amazing.
Previously, I met a flowergirl, Aerith, at 5th Street of the Slum, and now I was received at her place.


And then he says meeting her was amazing. Cloud seems pretty damn in love with her.