FFX-2 The connection between Tidus and Shuyin

[PhoenyxAngel]

Warning: spoilers

So if you've played FFX-2 you should know by now that the man in the sphere that started Yuna's new journey is not Tidus, but Shuyin.

The character of Shuyin (and Lenne as well) is introduced in FFX-2 and with his introduction brought a lot of questions to gamers. For instance, why does he looks so much like Tidus? Why does he sound like him? Where do their similarities start and where do they end? Being a huge fan of the possible connection between the two I have read several theories.

The first theory is basically a more real life reason why they look a like: the writers needed a reason for Yuna to go on her journey, and Shuyin's appearance was just a means to an end. There is no real connection between the two, it was just a plot device to get Yuna and co. on their sphere hunting adventure.

My response: While this makes a lot of sense in the real world, in the game universe it doesn't answer the questions of why they look and sound a like. So this theory, while likely, doesn't satisfy my curiosity as to why they looks a like in the game.

Second theory: Tidus is the descendant of Dream Shuyin.

My response: This theory makes sense considering Tidus was not from Dream Zanarkand 1000 years ago. He was from Dream Zanarkand PRESENT DAY. This seems to confuse a lot of gamers. We're led to believe Tidus was from the real Zanarkand 1000 years prior to the game, and that through Sin he was thrown into the future. This is not true. He did not time travel at all. Dream Zanarkand was created after the Real Zanarkand was destroyed. After that Dream Zanarkand continued existing along side the rest of Spira, and therefor has existed for 1000 years. So that would mean the Dream Zanarkand would have already had a Dream Lenne and Dream Shuyin right after it was made, 1000 years ago.

This theory says that Tidus may have a connection to Shuyin through being a descendant of the original Dream Shuyin. While this theory makes sense, and is very probable....it doesn't exactly explain everything. For instance: Imagine you're great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great (or however many greats it would be) grandfather/grandmother. Do you think you would look like them? Do you think you would have the same voice as them? This is highly unlikely in my opinion.

One response to this problem, that I've read, is the reuse of pyreflies theory. The theory goes that within Dream Zanarkand the fayth recycle the pyreflies of each dream to create the offspring of the dream. Or, that throughout several generations the same person may pop up again in Dream Zanarkand, or possibly someone very similar, because the pyreflies used to create the original dream person was recycled and a new version comes into being. Basically meaning that every couple of generations may result in a repeat of a dream who previously existed. It may not be a perfect replica (i.e. Tidus), but it would be similar. I can see this theory being probable. But it's personally not what I believe.

Third theory: The most accepted theory, as I've noticed among FF fans, is that Tidus is the dream version of Shuyin.

My response: This theory is the one I personally believe. The reason? He looks like Shuyin, same voice, same overdrives, they have similar stances, postures, mannerisms, they both would do anything they can to save the summoner, they both use the same catchphrase:

Tidus: Yuna! This is our story....

Shuyin: This is our story, Lenne

So how does this work out? How can 1000 years separate them?

My theories:

1.) The fayth did not wish to remake Shuyin and Lenne 1000 years ago, when they started Dream Zanarkand. Why? I can't really say for sure. But my theory is that they wanted to create a Zanarkand of their own, more than likely one with crime. So it was unlikely they would create people who murdered, stole, etc. Considering Shuyin's rather haste, irrational, and one could argue psychotic decisions to murder a city full of people....maybe the fayth thought it would be best to not create him in their Dream. Thought this idea could be debunked by the fact that many people could have considered him a hero for attempting to destroy Bevelle.

Maybe Lenne, as an unsent, requested the fayth not recreate her and Shuyin? Or maybe the townspeople who became fayth were so saddened by their loses (considering they were both stars) that they didn't want to be reminded of Lenne and Shuyin, and their dark fate?

2.) They did create a Dream Shuyin and Lenne 1000 years ago, but when they were tired of dreaming they hatched a plan to stop the spiral of death for good. Maybe they had planned to recreate a new Dream Shuyin who would fall for Yuna who had a very Lenne like personality. Maybe they planned the entire thing: Jecht going to Spira. And by his very personality he would want to do whatever he could to break the cycle, become Sin, and have his son kill him and finding a way to end the cycle. And then Tidus was created as an imperfect dream of Shuyin. Just enough of Shuyin's personality: Impulsiveness, going to whatever lengths it took to save the summoner, his love of Lenne, etc. to create a dream who could go to Spira, fall for the summoner, and stop the spiral of death and end their dreaming at last. This theory is my personal favorite. And the one I like the most.

3.) When they started Dream Zanarkand they went back as far as they knew of the history of Zanarkand: which happened to be 1000 years. To explain this further. Imagine we were to create a Dream version of America (or whatever country you live in). As the fayth we would go back as far as we knew, or when the country started. For America is would be 1776. So that's when we would start Dream Zanarkand and work our way back to the present day where America ended (or in the game, Sin attacked Zanarkand) and then go into the future. For Zanarkand, it started about 1000 years prior in theory, so by the time it got to Sin's destruction we had a modern day Dream Shuyin. But after 1000 years their memories of the people who lived their weren't entirely accurate. (1000 years would do that to you....can you imagine trying to remember what everyone looked like exactly after a millennium?)

4.) Dream Zanarkand loop: This is a popular theory that I've seen talked about several times. Dream Zanarkand has a starting point, but then when it comes it's destruction day the dream ends and then starts over again from the beginning. Meaning that the Dream People of Zanarkand live their lives over and over and over and over again.


Sorry for the long winded post. I may add more theories or defend my stance later. But what do you guys think? Why do Tidus and Shuyin look alike? Why do they have differences? Are they connected, as Yuna says in the same, or not? What theory do you prefer? Tidus is the dream version or Shuyin? Is Tidus a descendant of Dream Shuyin? Or was Shuyin merely a plot device to get Yuna on her journey?

Also, good luck to everyone in the FFX-2 competitions and quizzes. I hope to see more discussion about this rather underrated game.

 

[Channizard]

Alright well I've got a lot of points to address here. I like to think myself a FFX/-2 (especially X-2) guru. I've played the games several times over, second favs to VII for me, wiki'd them, researched them, done a lot over the years.

Tidus isn't real. He never was real, never could be real, never intended to be real. He was a dream of the fayth, that's explained simple enough in the game, but presumably a person from Zanarkand 1000 year's past. Because of Shuyin, and Tidus' lack of realness, it is very easy and safe to assume that Tidus is the dream of Shuyin.

Dream Zanarkand: Dream Zanarkand is a place, preserved in time at the peak of it's perfection. It doesn't enter an endless loop of the fayth reliving their lives, it's in a constant state of how it was before Sin attacked. That's why Tidus has memories of his mother, of himself as a child, of his father. At one point he was 'born' and 'lived' in Dream Zanarkand, like any normal person would. This can also be assumed that he lived Shuyin's life, however there isn't any direct tie to Shuyin, Jecht and Tidus' mother. (However, when you DO battle Shuyin on Vegnagun and voices of the past speak to you, Jecht mentions Shuyin being a crybaby, which instigates that maybe he was his father, or, a dream of who his father was.)

While Dream Zanarkand's people aren't real themselves, it IS a very real location. Yu Yevon surrounded the city with walls of water, an illusion so that people in the ocean wouldn't see the city there. That's why Tidus appears out of nowhere when Rikku finds him. The City is located/hidden near Baaj Temple. And because they don't see the city there, Rikku and them assume that Tidus had traveled from Zanarkand back in time, when REALITY he hadn't traveled through time at all, he just broke through the barriers, broken by Sin when it attacked.

Sin was crafted by Yu Yevon to protect Dream Zanarkand, to protect his dream city. 10 years prior, Jecht wanders too far out to sea and Sin and he encounter. This is the link that allows Sin to enter Dream Zanarkand later. Dream Zanarkand could have lived many years peacefully, never being interrupted. But because Jecht was the new Sin, he knew it's location, and with Auron's help, a fellow fayth, they brought Sin back to Dream Zanarkand, and pulled Tidus from it.

Shuyin and Lenne were very real people and a part of the fray when Sin was born between the battle of Bevelle and Zanarkand. Shuyin's just a poor shmuck who loved his girl and didn't want to see her die, so he did whatever he could to save her. However, because he was an unsent through his anger and his sorrow, he was very close to becoming a fiend. That's what the fiends in FFX are anyway, unsent who don't accept their death. Shuyin, unaccepting it, to prevent from becoming a fiend, stilled his soul in a cavern and possessed people who came through. This preserved his soul.

Lenne's soul was preserved in a sphere, her dresssphere. This is obvious, and easily explained in the game. But why weren't they recreated in Dream Zanarkand? Because their souls remained in two different places.. Shuyin's in the Den of Woe, and Lenne's in a dresssphere. If they were released or accepted death, they could have been recreated. However, they weren't.

Because Tidus was nothing more than a dream of a person from long ago, irrelevant to his place in the timeline of Dream Zanarkand, it's 99% likely he is the Dream Version of Shuyin, who once was, a real person. However he's not a direct immitation, he is merely a shadow of Shuyin, not a direct carbon-copy.

 

[PhoenyxAngel]

Thank you for bringing up these points. I also consider myself a FFX/X-2 guru. XD I knew everything you brought up, but thank you for laying down the facts for those who may not know too much about the world of Spira or DZ.

I agree with your stance that Tidus is dream Shuyin. And I had not thought of your theory as to why Shuyin and Lenne weren't recreated in Dream Zanarkand. It's because they were still unsent in Spira, and couldn't be reincarnated into their dream versions. Very interesting.

But then why did the Fayth take so long to create Tidus, who isn't a direct copy but more of a shadow or imperfect clone? Why wait 1000 years, rather than just creating an imperfect copy of Shuyin when they first started DZ? This is what I often wonder. Hence my theory that the fayth may have had a role in planning things out for both Tidus and Jecht to come to Spira. They needed a person with a Shuyin like personality to fall for Yuna, who had a Lenne like personality. That's my idea anyways.

 

[Channizard]

I don't think that the Fayth would have even wanted to create a replica of Shuyin, initially anyway. When DZ was Yu Yevon's ideal Zanarkand, he wanted to preserve it as it was. So why would he want to create an image of someone who played a part in the destruction of it?

The Fayth eventually tired of dreaming and needed someone to break the dream. But Shuyin's spirit, still as an unsent, and trapped in the Den of Woe possessing people, couldn't be 100% replicated. So yeah, they did need someone with the good aspects of Shuyin, complete devotion to follow the Summoner and in the end, put a stop to the dreaming. That's why (I think) Tidus looks so much like Shuyin, 99%, but it's him completely. It's just a shadow.

 

[PhoenyxAngel]

I don't think that the Fayth would have even wanted to create a replica of Shuyin, initially anyway. When DZ was Yu Yevon's ideal Zanarkand, he wanted to preserve it as it was. So why would he want to create an image of someone who played a part in the destruction of it?

The Fayth eventually tired of dreaming and needed someone to break the dream. But Shuyin's spirit, still as an unsent, and trapped in the Den of Woe possessing people, couldn't be 100% replicated. So yeah, they did need someone with the good aspects of Shuyin, complete devotion to follow the Summoner and in the end, put a stop to the dreaming. That's why (I think) Tidus looks so much like Shuyin, 99%, but it's him completely. It's just a shadow.

How did Shuyin play a part in it's destruction? Wasn't that Yu Yevon who created Sin and ended up destroying Zanarkand?

I agree with the rest of what you're saying. It makes sense.

 

[Channizard]

Well by going after Vegnagun and wanting to use a giant Machina to destroy Spira. He may or may not have known about it, but it's unlikely that criminal charges of worldwide destruction would go overlooked.

 

[PhoenyxAngel]

Ah, very true. He probably wouldn't have realized at the time that Vegnagun could have very well have destroyed everything and not just Bevelle. And that could also explain why the Fayth and Yu Yevon wouldn't want someone like that in DZ

 

[Channizard]

I think maybe he did. I mean, that's why it was locked away to begin with. Plus Veganagun was locked underneath Bevelle, and Lenne and Shuyin, afaik, were Zanarkand-ites. Perhaps they were marked as traitors (or Shuyin was at the very least) for going to Bevelle and using a Machina, which Yu Yevon didn't approve of.. I mean, that's why Sin exists.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Second theory: Tidus is the descendant of Dream Shuyin.

My response: This theory makes sense considering Tidus was not from Dream Zanarkand 1000 years ago. He was from Dream Zanarkand PRESENT DAY. This seems to confuse a lot of gamers. We're led to believe Tidus was from the real Zanarkand 1000 years prior to the game, and that through Sin he was thrown into the future. This is not true. He did not time travel at all. Dream Zanarkand was created after the Real Zanarkand was destroyed. After that Dream Zanarkand continued existing along side the rest of Spira, and therefor has existed for 1000 years. So that would mean the Dream Zanarkand would have already had a Dream Lenne and Dream Shuyin right after it was made, 1000 years ago.

This theory says that Tidus may have a connection to Shuyin through being a descendant of the original Dream Shuyin. While this theory makes sense, and is very probable....it doesn't exactly explain everything. For instance: Imagine you're great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great (or however many greats it would be) grandfather/grandmother. Do you think you would look like them? Do you think you would have the same voice as them? This is highly unlikely in my opinion.

This is the one I've always believed. I've never thought much in depth about it though I guess, this was just kind of what I assumed when I first thought about it. After reading all the theories though, I do still think it makes the most sense.

Basically, 1000 years ago when the Fayth created dream Zanarkand, they created it out of their combined memories of all the people who had lived there. From then on those people lived and died as would be normal in the real world and Tidus is a descendant of Shuyin far down the line. While it may seem unlikely that someone so far down the line would look like their ancestor we really don't know if this actually ever does happen because it's so far in the future/past that nobody can remember it. I mean, 1000 years is at least 25 generations and that's if they all wait until they're 40 before having children. So we might look like our distant ancestors and not even know it.

I also don't think that Tidus/Shuyin were supposed to look exactly alike, they do have differences especially in the cinematic scenes. I think they were meant to look a lot alike, but so were Yuna and Lenne and that was definitely a coincidence. So if two completely unrelated people could look similar, it's not much of a stretch to say two people related could look very similar. So...that's what I think

Xx..xX

 

[PhoenyxAngel]

This is the one I've always believed. I've never thought much in depth about it though I guess, this was just kind of what I assumed when I first thought about it. After reading all the theories though, I do still think it makes the most sense.

Basically, 1000 years ago when the Fayth created dream Zanarkand, they created it out of their combined memories of all the people who had lived there. From then on those people lived and died as would be normal in the real world and Tidus is a descendant of Shuyin far down the line. While it may seem unlikely that someone so far down the line would look like their ancestor we really don't know if this actually ever does happen because it's so far in the future/past that nobody can remember it. I mean, 1000 years is at least 25 generations and that's if they all wait until they're 40 before having children. So we might look like our distant ancestors and not even know it.

I also don't think that Tidus/Shuyin were supposed to look exactly alike, they do have differences especially in the cinematic scenes. I think they were meant to look a lot alike, but so were Yuna and Lenne and that was definitely a coincidence. So if two completely unrelated people could look similar, it's not much of a stretch to say two people related could look very similar. So...that's what I think

Xx..xX

I do think you're right in terms of the time difference. It would make sense to have Tidus and a descendant of Dream Shuyin. And it's true that they don't look exactly a like. But to me, Tidus kind of looks like a younger version of Shuyin. I mean, look at Yuna's difference between X and X-2 (a two year time difference):




Her face changed quite a bit within two years. I would imagine Shuyin is a few years older than Tidus....so to me it's not that much of a stretch to believe Tidus' face could change a bit between age 17 and whatever Shuyin's age was when he died (my guess: between 19 and 24).

My problem with the descendant theory lies in the fact that not only do they look alike, they also have the same voice (same voice actors. lol), same overdrives, similar stances in battle and mannerisms, even using the same catchphrase in the Den of Woe (there can't be two idiots saying 'This is our story' unless they're somehow connected. lol). Another thing I forgot to mention in the Den of Woe:

Jump to 2:30

Look familiar?

I don't know. There are too many things about Shuyin that are meant to remind us of Tidus, even after the fact that Yuna discovers he's not Tidus. I can understand having similarities prior to finding out this fact, but what's the point in having us be remind of Tidus after we already figured out he's not Tidus? I see them as hints to the fact that Tidus is somewhat of an imperfect copy of Shuyin.

But I respect your theory. You may be right about the descendant theory. It does make a lot of sense, but to me it doesn't quite explain all the little details you see of Shuyin throughout the game.

One last thing I forgot to mention:

Shuyin was apparently a blitzer as well. Some fans dispute this and argue that there's not proof of it. But to me the fact that he uses a blitzball in the Terror of Zanarkand (and does the Sphere Shot. Which as we know from FFX is not an easy task to complete. When Tidus did the shot for Wakka and the Besaid Aurochs they were extremely impressed.) Plus there's the fact that his clothes look like they could be a blitzer uniform (a much older version of the Abes uniform from FFX)

But not only that, I found this in the FFX-2 Illustration Collection:



I wanted to add that in to prove another similarity between Tidus and Shuyin.

 

[Sheechiibii]

I do think you're right in terms of the time difference. It would make sense to have Tidus and a descendant of Dream Shuyin. And it's true that they don't look exactly a like. But to me, Tidus kind of looks like a younger version of Shuyin. I mean, look at Yuna's difference between X and X-2 (a two year time difference):

View attachment 1886
View attachment 1887

Her face changed quite a bit within two years. I would imagine Shuyin is a few years older than Tidus....so to me it's not that much of a stretch to believe Tidus' face could change a bit between age 17 and whatever Shuyin's age was when he died (my guess: between 19 and 24).

My problem with the descendant theory lies in the fact that not only do they look alike, they also have the same voice (same voice actors. lol), same overdrives, similar stances in battle and mannerisms, even using the same catchphrase in the Den of Woe (there can't be two idiots saying 'This is our story' unless they're somehow connected. lol). Another thing I forgot to mention in the Den of Woe:

Jump to 2:30

Look familiar?

I don't know. There are too many things about Shuyin that are meant to remind us of Tidus, even after the fact that Yuna discovers he's not Tidus. I can understand having similarities prior to finding out this fact, but what's the point in having us be remind of Tidus after we already figured out he's not Tidus? I see them as hints to the fact that Tidus is somewhat of an imperfect copy of Shuyin.

But I respect your theory. You may be right about the descendant theory. It does make a lot of sense, but to me it doesn't quite explain all the little details you see of Shuyin throughout the game.

One last thing I forgot to mention:

Shuyin was apparently a blitzer as well. Some fans dispute this and argue that there's not proof of it. But to me the fact that he uses a blitzball in the Terror of Zanarkand (and does the Sphere Shot. Which as we know from FFX is not an easy task to complete. When Tidus did the shot for Wakka and the Besaid Aurochs they were extremely impressed.) Plus there's the fact that his clothes look like they could be a blitzer uniform (a much older version of the Abes uniform from FFX)

But not only that, I found this in the FFX-2 Illustration Collection:

View attachment 1888View attachment 1889

I wanted to add that in to prove another similarity between Tidus and Shuyin.

Hmm, yeah you make some really good points. I guess I just don't really like that theory because it doesn't make sense that tidus is still around 1000 years in the future if he's the original dream of Shuyin. I respect that there are a lot of things to explain this, but it just gets more and more complicated and takes too much thinking about I prefer the sense that the descendant theory gives while still being simple enough. The other theaories are all cool and interesting too though, but I guess since this is always the way I've seen things it seems the most likely to me.

A little off-topic but I do think that the difference between Yuna of X and Yuna of X-2 is way too much for two years, she often looks like an entirely different person, her face and eyes are a totally different shape as well. It's something that's always bothered me but I've just always let it slide lol

Xx..xX

 

[PhoenyxAngel]

Yeah....the difference between Yuna from FFX and Yuna from FFX-2 bothers me as well. Along with the magically growing hair at an impossible length in such a short amount of time thing. lol. Even look at Rikku's face in X and X-2....she's changed as well.

I guess my point was that in Spira their faces change dramatically in a short amount of time, so even if Tidus and Shuyin look different it doesn't discredit the dream theory since apparently faces can change within two years.