So why exactly are we attacking religion?

[Warbsywoo]

Again, why exactly are we attacking religion? Much more specifically the Catholic religion. And I'm asking this because, you know, I'm starting to feel that we're only doing this because it seems to be what everyone is doing, or some other crap like that.

I'm a Catholic, so obviously I'd support my own faith, but for Pete's sake, I think transgressions against the Catholic religion are just getting plain ridiculous. Is there really any reason why? Why are we blaming God for things? Why are we blaming the Bible for things? Are you all saying that this 'God' that you don't even believe in is the cause of much evil in the world despite the fact that there are actual people out there who use Catholicism as a platform to further their own ends. Uhm, it's difficult for me to understand the logic here, but if anti-Christians (anti-religion) think that God does not exist, how can it be possible that he's causing famine, and strife, and death, and wars? How can you say that the organized establishment of the Catholic Church is a mindless organization intent on corrupting the minds of the people when only a few individuals advocate that?
How can you say that the Bible is a fraud? 1.) That indicates you actually read the Bible at some point in your life, or 2.) Hey, you picked the idea up somewhere on some forum.

Catholicism as I know it isn't dominated by individuals. It is all about community. I understand that the media have been harbingers of such bad images to the public (gay priests, religious politicians, etc. etc.), but seriously...

 

[Pyreflyer]

- People blame God when he doesn't answer their prayers

- People think Islam is the cause of terrorists which creates hypocrisy since others come in and blame Christianity as greedy and intolerant of other religions

- People take religion to seriously. I love it when people take one liners out of the bible and base a whole crusade out of it. It's the people who corrupt the image/word of God. Reading religious text word for word brings out the best and worst in people.

- I take everything with salt. While I personally believe there's more to life than what we see, I don't believe following a book will give us liberation or torture in the afterlife. I believe life is a "Heaven or Hell".

I think it's the people at the top who make a few bad decisions that corrupt the religion in question, basically.

God is not a genie. He doesn't grant wishes just because you're a good person and you go to church every sunday (speaking generally). Life is a test. When it boils down to life's simple concepts, you just need to love all and serve all. That's how I live my life. I'm really tired of people putting words and ideas in my mind. Life is all about self-discovery and some rely on religion and fate as a security blanket but I like to push that aside and explore my 'environment' so to speak.

 

[Warbsywoo]

I'd like to say that I think most of these 'views' are outdated. For one, I don't see how we are intolerant of other religious. Well, maybe some sects are, but for the most part, I disagree with that notion.

Second, the Bible as a path to salvation is...Protestant belief, I think. Catholicism focuses on good deeds and thoughts. So obviously, all Christians aren't in agreement over that fact. But either way, if true Christians take stock in the Bible as a way to salvation, then they'd lead very normal and charitable lives. The Bible is there to guide you, not force you to do things by its will alone. It doesn't 'give' us salvation or torture, it merely outlines the path to it.

And a comment on people taking religion too seriously. If they didn't, they wouldn't be true followers of that religion, would they?

But other than that, I agree with the part where the leaders in power tend to make or break the image of the church. We may all believe in what we want, but blatantly attacking the religious establishment?

 

[Pyreflyer]

I never argue religion with people. I have before it got so ugly that it wasn't worth it

Most of my views were based on experience from myself, friends and family. I wasn't speaking strictly on Catholicm but moreso on just the generalities religion on a whole. And there are people who take the bible as more than a guide but the truth and one that should be upheld.

I was raised to be religious but have steered away from it recently. I haven't renounced it but I have ignored principles I should be abiding by.

But I will say I have nothing against religion. It just bothers when people try to change the world because of religious reasons and not for realistic reasons like economy and society.

That is all

 

[Warbsywoo]

So, summary No.1

- Religious people try to change the world with religion instead of being realistic.

I agree with that, because some people are actually crazy enough to do this without considering the consequences or the fact that there are actual other religions in existence. >.>

 

[Pyreflyer]

Exactly. Fundamental teachings in Hinduism and Buddhism are toleration of other religions because all religions send the same messages but in different contexts. Toleration is the key to unity but when you were raised to believe things in a certain way, you can't just refute them.

But that being said, we are better off now than before. Slavery was deemed acceptable because it was thought that since indigineous people 'behaved like animals', they were animals and because animals have no souls, these people can be enslaved.

Now it seems it's just bickering back and forth which is better than murder by the hundreds if not thousands.

 

[der Astronom]

Again, why exactly are we attacking religion? Much more specifically the Catholic religion. And I'm asking this because, you know, I'm starting to feel that we're only doing this because it seems to be what everyone is doing, or some other crap like that.

I'm a Catholic, so obviously I'd support my own faith, but for Pete's sake, I think transgressions against the Catholic religion are just getting plain ridiculous. Is there really any reason why? Why are we blaming God for things? Why are we blaming the Bible for things? Are you all saying that this 'God' that you don't even believe in is the cause of much evil in the world despite the fact that there are actual people out there who use Catholicism as a platform to further their own ends. Uhm, it's difficult for me to understand the logic here, but if anti-Christians (anti-religion) think that God does not exist, how can it be possible that he's causing famine, and strife, and death, and wars? How can you say that the organized establishment of the Catholic Church is a mindless organization intent on corrupting the minds of the people when only a few individuals advocate that?

Not all "anti-Christians" believe in God, as in they believe God exists, but when they discuss him as a character, one need not assume that he exists. For example, you might describe or analyze a character from a movie or some book like you do in English class, possibly a fictional character, but in order to do so, one need not assume that this character actually exists. If you're not comfortable with that idea, you can discuss the character as if he were to exist. So one may argue that if God were to exist, I might blame him for certain things. If God were to exist, I might blame him for natural disasters that aren't so natural, but since I don't believe in God, I don't blame him; I blame no one for natural disasters that are an inherent property of the Earth and I guess the universe because it's the explanation that makes the most sense to me.

As for the people who probably were Catholic or Christian at one point and assumed that God caused all the bad things to happen and blamed God for it, I cannot speak for them because just because a horrible being did something does not mean they couldn't exist. However, you can choose not to believe that such a horrible being did these things, particularly because there's no evidence that such a being did them.

How can you say that the Bible is a fraud? 1.) That indicates you actually read the Bible at some point in your life, or 2.) Hey, you picked the idea up somewhere on some forum.

There are probably two kinds of people who read a book. One kind reads a book because he heard it was great and wants to enjoy it. The other kind reads a book because he wants to know how bad it is. Never assume that people read a book for only one reason. Also never assume that the person reading the book needs to assume that whatever is written in a book is true. Lastly, do not assume that people who read the bible are religious. I know of many atheists who have also read the bible at some point in their life. Otherwise, I have no idea why you brought up that first point.

The fact that you picked up an idea off of a forum isn't particularly not credible, depending on what you read on the forum. Debates such as these occur on forums, and some people actually bring up good points when they explain why they think the bible is a fraud, if such topics exist. That's really up to you to decide though--no one's saying that it's a bad reason just because it came from a forum. Otherwise, you may as well not treat anything I'm saying here seriously.

However, what you might have wanted to say was that you can't really have a basis for calling the bible a fraud if it's based off someone who said "the bible is a fraud" without explaining it on a forum.

Catholicism as I know it isn't dominated by individuals. It is all about community. I understand that the media have been harbingers of such bad images to the public (gay priests, religious politicians, etc. etc.), but seriously...

If there's anything I would attack, it would have to be the unclear and disturbing nature of the bible. I wouldn't attack the people who either read or believe it because that's really their choice if they choose to believe it. It's also true that religion does things to people that make them seem bad in other people's eyes, but I have no desire to interfere with the way other people live, so long as they're not spending their lives shoving their religion down other people's throats or sending doom on people and telling them they're going to hell because they don't believe, or starting wars.

I would also attack religion, or the groups that advocate creationism and intelligent design because not only are they dumbing down education of science, but they're teaching people stuff that's not even science as science, and they're using dirty cheap tricks like politics to get what they want. It's disgusting and dishonest, and it's not like science even has anything against religion, even if evolution contradicts creationism. It's just that the evidence doesn't lie if the Earth isn't flat or 6000 years old, a global flood is physically impossible, or creationism was just not feasible.

I'm well aware that there are Christians or Catholics that aren't like this, but I wouldn't be attacking them because they're not harming anyone by practicing their religion. It's just the creationists and fundamentalists that are making them look bad.

You might also be interested to know that some of these Christians who don't make their religion look bad don't even follow everything that's written in the bible.

 

[Tedius Zanarukando]

I am deliberately attacking my parents' cultic religious organization Jehovah's Witnesses as well as Radical Islam. My parents' religion is too restrictive. It is the religion that promoted my controversial views. They were influenced by dominant culture. I blame it for my problems, including my views on the female sex. Jehovah's Witnesses are not really a religon. They are a cult of Christianity. That oppressive religious group does not teach historical or Biblical Christianity in any way and promotes psychological abuse.

 

[Hera Ledro]

Again, why exactly are we attacking religion? Much more specifically the Catholic religion. And I'm asking this because, you know, I'm starting to feel that we're only doing this because it seems to be what everyone is doing, or some other crap like that.

I'm a Catholic, so obviously I'd support my own faith, but for Pete's sake, I think transgressions against the Catholic religion are just getting plain ridiculous. Is there really any reason why? Why are we blaming God for things? Why are we blaming the Bible for things? Are you all saying that this 'God' that you don't even believe in is the cause of much evil in the world despite the fact that there are actual people out there who use Catholicism as a platform to further their own ends. Uhm, it's difficult for me to understand the logic here, but if anti-Christians (anti-religion) think that God does not exist, how can it be possible that he's causing famine, and strife, and death, and wars? How can you say that the organized establishment of the Catholic Church is a mindless organization intent on corrupting the minds of the people when only a few individuals advocate that?
How can you say that the Bible is a fraud? 1.) That indicates you actually read the Bible at some point in your life, or 2.) Hey, you picked the idea up somewhere on some forum.

Catholicism as I know it isn't dominated by individuals. It is all about community. I understand that the media have been harbingers of such bad images to the public (gay priests, religious politicians, etc. etc.), but seriously...

You make an interesting point, Warbs. Let's explore piece by piece.

I'm a Catholic, so obviously I'd support my own faith, but for Pete's sake, I think transgressions against the Catholic religion are just getting plain ridiculous. Is there really any reason why? Why are we blaming God for things?

Perhaps it's just me, but that's not what I do. More often than not, my arguments consist of using my opponent's logic against them, rather than relying on my own imperfect logic (I am human, after all (or am I...))

If my adversary brings into the argument that he's responsible for the miracles, then why can't he be responsible for the bad things. Personally, if God exists, kudos to him for making Lucifer into Satan. Honestly, bad stuff is good, in the sense that we need it to understand what is good and to make the right decisions. Otherwise, it's bad

So, if he's responsible for bringing joy and happiness, he is logically responsible for bringing in pain and suffering (even if we were to say that Satan is responsible for this, God put im down there, so it's technically his fault). Also, why is God so "great?" He's done horrible things to people, just look at what he did to the Egyptians! Why the hell would he take it out on the kids? Two wrongs don't make a right, bucko; an eye for an eye only leaves the world blind.

Why are we blaming the Bible for things? Are you all saying that this 'God' that you don't even believe in is the cause of much evil in the world despite the fact that there are actual people out there who use Catholicism as a platform to further their own ends?

*Corrects a single grammatical error*

Firstly, I'd like to say that the Bible is in no way responsible for the things people do. It's the yahoos that interpret it and act evilly on it that are responsible. (Ok, not to sound like an ass or anything, but i just don't get Mary Baker Eddy's interpretations of how we're all spiritual and the physical world is just an illusion. Please, enlighten me.)

People use Catholicism as platform for more than one end, Warbs. Hitler used it as propaganda for the German-Catholics during WWII. My personal quam against Catholicism is how hypocritical it is, what with the "Oh, you just killed a man so I'm gonna have you killed." From my understanding, the instant one breaks one of the Ten Commandments, they are, according to Abrahamic Religious Law, to be put to death. I just don't understand that hypocrisy.

Uhm, it's difficult for me to understand the logic here, but if anti-Christians (anti-religion) think that God does not exist, how can it be possible that he's causing famine, and strife, and death, and wars?

All a matter of opinion. Unfortunately, I can't remember what fallacy that was, but you can't say that he IS causing famine, strife, wars, etc. if you are talking to a person who doesn't believe that. I don't believe in God, and consequently, I don't believe that he is causing all this stuff. I'm a basic "You reap what you sow" kind of guy, but on a larger scale. Everything that you said there, with exception to death, is simply a by-product of human activity. We can't always avoid it, but it is a by-product nonetheless.

And, as a side-note, don't presume that because someone is anti-Christian, they're anti-religious. Look at those Muslim Terrorists out there, the supremely extreme ones. They're anti-Christian, but not anti-religious.

How can you say that the organized establishment of the Catholic Church is a mindless organization intent on corrupting the minds of the people when only a few individuals advocate that?

I disagree. I don't think that they are a mindless organization and etcetera etcetera. They're just hypocritical and illogical, from my point of view. Moving on

How can you say that the Bible is a fraud? 1.) That indicates you actually read the Bible at some point in your life, or 2.) Hey, you picked the idea up somewhere on some forum.

I have read the Bible many times, thank you, and I think it's a kook's tale. I'm not slamming those who believe in it, but I honestly think it was just some old story that people got way too caught up on and stuff, and started believing. One person can have a belief and have it spread from there. Not unnatural, very common.

I just choose to think it a very contradictory story. Way too much stuff in there that doesn't click.

And I shall end it here.

 

[der Astronom]

Firstly, I'd like to say that the Bible is in no way responsible for the things people do. It's the yahoos that interpret it and act evilly on it that are responsible. (Ok, not to sound like an ass or anything, but i just don't get Mary Baker Eddy's interpretations of how we're all spiritual and the physical world is just an illusion. Please, enlighten me.)

People use Catholicism as platform for more than one end, Warbs. Hitler used it as propaganda for the German-Catholics during WWII. My personal quam against Catholicism is how hypocritical it is, what with the "Oh, you just killed a man so I'm gonna have you killed." From my understanding, the instant one breaks one of the Ten Commandments, they are, according to Abrahamic Religious Law, to be put to death. I just don't understand that hypocrisy.

I'd like to point out in reference to my two things that are wrong with religion (that being the people who read it and the holy text itself), it's actually a problem with both the people and the holy text. Yes, it's the pope's fault for advocating the crusades (if he did, but some Christians did; I suppose I could also blame him for not stopping such an act if it was considered wrong), and yes, it's the people's fault for torturing heretics and non believers, and yes, it's the church's fault that they prosecuted scientists like Galileo and Copernicus for their real findings which contradict their fairytale notions that were unevidenced and completely ridiculous by today's standards. However, remember that none of this would be possible if such a book did not exist that told them those things. If a different book existed that told them to open their minds and that allowed skepticism that inspired people to think more rationally, they would not be the same people. One thing is clear though: you can still blame the book for that. So for a better picture, I suggest that it's the fault of both the people reading the book and the book for what it says--the people for making the choice to believe what was written and acting on it, and the book for saying the things that made the people do what they did.

 

[Soul Saver]

I don't know. I for one am Agnostic, but I respect religion, and don't bash anything except stupid cults.

 

[Nightsway]

I don't suppose my word goes for much here, but... perhaps we attack religion, because religion attacks us, just look at all the wars and fueds that spawn from religion. Perhaps if we all put our faith in each other, rather than a being that might not even exist... We could all get along..?

 

[Hera Ledro]

Lol, you don't understand the mindset of humanity very well then.

Humans fancy themselves to be social creatures. They are in certain respects, but it is unnatural for them to NOT be racist. I don't say that in a racist mindset or anything, I'm very pro-racial-equality, but that is human nature.

Humans fear things different from them. This fear takes hsape in many ways, not the least of which is trying to stamp out whatever frightens you. You see a bear, you either run away or try to kill it. Human mindset of fight or flight. Why do you think slavery happened in the first place? The Imperialists were threatened by the religions of the areas they were colonizing, and they wanted their religion to be supreme. Hence all the subsequent slavery. Christians used the story of Noah to support slavery.

The section they used involves how Noah's son had sex on the ship. To cut a long story short, Noah's kid has sex with his girlfriend, God punishes him by turning him black, and the kid becomes subservient to Noah. Total bullshit in my opinion, and I'm sure most people will agree with me.

But now I've gone completely off-tangent...

Basically, humans don't get along together anywhere near as well as they think they do, or that they'd hope the could. It's in a human's nature to be hateful and destructive of differences. The time when we live in peace and shed religion for the greater good is a long ways off, my friend, a LONG ways off.

 

[Blue Link]

Racism? No, in my mind their is only one important race, one that religon and peopld seem to overlook...the HUMAN race.

As for religon, I always believed that it was a way to get closer to God. Many people and cultures see God in a different way and found their way to enlightenment. If you've led a good life believing in Buddha, that's okay. Allah? That's fine. Whatever pushes you to be the best person you can be, believe in it and never lose your faith. That's what religon is to me. Faith...

 

[Cube]

The problem with religion is the small minded people that occur within all religious groups that don't seem to realise that what you believe doesn't matter and that as long as people are happy with their faith and live a good life that is all that matters.
Some people insist that their religion is the only true one and if you aren't following it then you are evil, this stems the root of a lot of the problems. However at the same time religion is used as an excuse to wage war and intensify arguement because it is the most convenient means as an arguement in religion can never be won.
Trying to convince someone to change what they believe is impossible so when people try this is what often leads to problems. On top of this ridiculous made up cults like scientology make a mockery of true religious orders which waters down the whole message and creates and image that many do not take seriously.

 

[der Astronom]

I'd like to believe that, but when you look at what the bible says in Christianity, one can't help but notice that the religion itself is partially at fault. You say that every religion might have its extremists, but when their holy book tells them to torture and kill non believers, and to convert others who don't believe the same as you, or when there are so many wars and violence described in the bible, particularly those condoned by the deity himself, it's hard not to blame the religion as well. As I have said before, there are two parts to this problem: the people for believing it purely out of faith, and the book for saying the nasty things.

 

[Nightsway]

Religions are essentially modern day tribes. Yeah, it may seem that there will always be humans attacking humans, but may i use Buddhist monks as an example here? How many Buddhists do you see killing each other and offending each other..? The way I see it, if 'God' DOES exist, he created us to LIVE not to praise him all day long. I'm not saying religion is the only cause of hostility, but the clash of two faiths will always cause upset.

Lol, you don't understand the mindset of humanity very well then.

I disagree, that's a primal instinct, that is easy to overcome with the will to do so

They are in certain respects, but it is unnatural for them to NOT be racist.

Again, I disagree, Buddhists live one WITH nature, but dont fight each other. So how does that work?

It's in a human's nature to be hateful and destructive of differences.

That only applies to people that believe it.

In fact, here's a thought, maybe the way we have developed, Eg, currency, groups of people (eg religion) has just turned the whole instinct to survive into the the instinct to own, and dominate.

 

[Hera Ledro]

I disagree, that's a primal instinct, that is easy to overcome with the will to do so

Agreed, but I was referring to humanity as a whole, not groups or individuals. I consider a lot of Buddhism to be on a far higher plane than most humans, myself included, can get to.

Again, I disagree, Buddhists live one WITH nature, but dont fight each other. So how does that work?

Not quite. Buddhists do fight, they just do not do it violently or angrily. Why else do you think there are so many factions? Theravada Buddhism, for example, is against the concept of a soul. Most other Buddhist factions are in favour of a soul. Big dispute there, but it does not have anger, hatred, violence, etc. in it.

That only applies to people that believe it.

In fact, here's a thought, maybe the way we have developed, Eg, currency, groups of people (eg religion) has just turned the whole instinct to survive into the the instinct to own, and dominate.

You make an excellent point. It DOES only apply to people that believe it, but I believe it simply because of what I have seen and heard of humanity.

I also agree with your statement about how the instincts have changed. Instinct never disappears, it only changes. As our society 'evolved,' so did our needs to survive as a social race, and so did our instincts with it. Our instincts are simply our minds way of telling us the best way to survive. It is, in short, our survivalist psyche. Without it, we wouldn't be where we are now.

If this is true, then we can logically assume that greed and tyrrany have become the instincts of leaders. Not all leaders, but some. Hussein, Bush, bin Laden, Hitler (for a more well-known example, he DID throw the Northern world itself into a war, after all), and many others learned, through their lives, how to survive in society. That seems to be how our instincts are driven, nowadays: what society wants it to be, or how we react and involve ourselves in society.

Religion accepts and defies this all at the same time. They'll be part of a society, but they'll do it their way. I'm all for it, but when it comes to banging on people's doors and basically shoving their religion down their throats, I want them to get the fuck away from there. I have nothing wrong with religion itself, it makes perfect sense to me why people rely on faith rather than reason in our world. That being said, there is such a thing as an extreme. And a a lot of religions take it to that extreme.

And that extreme returns to instinct: they've learned to do that in their society, because doing that ends up giving them less punishment from the society they are a part of. They do what they do because their preferred society wants them to do it. Yes, they may want to do it, but that's because all societies, in a way, brainwash the people in them. A bit of an extreme term, I admit, but it is still the truth. If a child was able to rear itself, away from society, and, when it finally became an adult, choose to be a Jehovah's Witness or a Muslim, who do you think it would choose?

I don't think it would choose either. Technically speaking, a child must be reared and cannot rear itself, but if given the true free will like that, it would become neither. Why? Because the way its grown up is probably radically different from those faiths. It has learned through its life of self-preservation to do whatever it can to stay alive, and it didn't learn it in society. Hence, it will function differently in society, act irrationally in reference to our standards. It will have beliefs based on what it has seen; some will be logical, some might not be.

Anywho, that's my two cents for now.