I hate Tifa Remake version (and her fans, seriously)

Raspberry

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This is going to be a rant and a journey to get to my point. There's something about Tifa that I absolutely despise but I could never pinpoint it until now.

In the original FF7 on PlayStation, based on the script and no voice acting or no detail to the characters, she had a lot more spunk and was determined to contribute to Avalanche while she also had her own reservations and doubts throughout the game. Her connection with Cloud was always a little meek but she was unsure and confused about him. And although she took care of Marlene, Aerith seemed more of the motherly role than Tifa. Tifa (to me) was the older sister type. Her relationship with Cloud Always hinted she knew more about him but also never really understood him (until the end).

When I saw Tifa in Advent Children, there was a radical change from the personality that I was used to. I thought it was because she was also mourning over Aerith but also over Cloud not being around to help out Marlene and Denzel and probably resentment that Cloud can't move on from Aerith. So I somewhat justified it in my brain.

After some time I played Crisis Core, I noticed it had that awkward Kingdom Hearts vibe of "maybe I should ask, maybe I shouldn't" type of conversations along with This happened to characters like Zack, Cloud, Aerith, Cissnei, and even Tifa. It was strange and awkward pacing. So because of this weird attitude all the characters were embracing, I couldn't really tell if they were trying to do something with Tifa, but she seemed to have that same spunk from the original just watered down. And because she gets so little screentime, it wasn't as noticeable. I should've listened to my gut though. the iconic Niebleheim incident really didn't try to give her any iconic moments
.

It was until I played Final Fantasy VII Remake when I finally realized it wasn't just a coincidence. In my opinion, the Tifa I have been seeing in the Compilation series was a whole new character that is trying too hard to be "the Cloud love interest" or at least a worthy contender. and all of it seems to hurt her as a character. Nothing about Tifa is consistent or real and everything appealing about Tifa seems to be "Waifu" material. She is a fighter-type character, which means she isn't afraid to get up close and personal. So she obviously has a sense of confidence. Maybe it's just me, but a character like Tifa and her background in abilities means she isn't afraid to tackle anything head-on.

And yet, we see she chooses to be meek and helpless at times. Reluctantly disagreeing with Avalanche (and off-screen). And even afraid of jumping off a train and requiring Cloud to save her. I thought perhaps that Tifa was "lost in translation" because of the English, and decided to rewatch cutscenes with Tifa in Japanese across the Compilation of FF7. It does help that Tifa's Japanese voice actress sounds significantly younger. But even though I admit she comes off as more of a polite Japanese personality, It still comes across as trying too hard.

It's when she says her iconic lines "I'm sick of this. I'm sick of all of this" which comes off really cheap and fake. Like she's trying to put on a performance.
Am i the only one who finds Tifa incredibly fake?

EDIT: I've come to dislike the fans for the most part too. I think the biggest problem I have with the fans, is they are incapable of seeing Tifa in any other aspect other than the framework they want to. The unrealistic aspects of Tifa seem to be ignored, and refuse to really analyze those very aspects. I've seen a lot of what people like about Tifa, and a lot of what they like is her background more than her character. So at the end of the day, it becomes an argument of execution vs what's on script. And for the most part, i believe execution matters the most.

The reason why this is important, because i believe that this world is slowly forgetting to read social queues, and Tifa, tends to hit all the red flags but is always ignored. Don't get me wrong, this is VERY common in anime where certain characters act soft/vulnerable and even if their intention isn't to harm, do harmful stuff.

i understand the Tifa fans may not agree. But it would be nice if they knew where others are coming from when they see that.
 
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I love Tifa (completely as a stand-alone character, but I love CloudxTifa as well).

I think all the characters in the game are there for a reason, and I do think Tifa was mainly put in the game as development/growth arc for Cloud, but that doesn't take away from how well fleshed out I think her characters is. I'm talking across the board, btw.

I was very worried about voice acting coming to games, but I've grown to like even that.

It was until I played Final Fantasy VII Remake when I finally realized it wasn't just a coincidence. In my opinion, the Tifa I have been seeing in the Compilation series was a whole new character that is trying too hard to be "the Cloud love interest" or at least a worthy contender. and all of it seems to hurt her as a character. Nothing about Tifa is consistent or real and everything appealing about Tifa seems to be "Waifu" material. She is a fighter-type character, which means she isn't afraid to get up close and personal. So she obviously has a sense of confidence. Maybe it's just me, but a character like Tifa and her background in abilities means she isn't afraid to tackle anything head-on.

I do think that being a martial artist/fighter type doesn't automatically mean you're the bomb at emotional expression, personal interactions, etc. She can throw a punch but I think her personality is otherwise quite reserved. Which is opposite in the girls. Tifa being more revealing in clothing but more reserved about feelings and emotions and shy. Aerith less revealing but a lot more flirty, doesn't shy away from feelings type of girl.

And yet, we see she chooses to be meek and helpless at times. Reluctantly disagreeing with Avalanche (and off-screen). And even afraid of jumping off a train and requiring Cloud to save her. I thought perhaps that Tifa was "lost in translation" because of the English, and decided to rewatch cutscenes with Tifa in Japanese across the Compilation of FF7. It does help that Tifa's Japanese voice actress sounds significantly younger. But even though I admit she comes off as more of a polite Japanese personality, It still comes across as trying too hard.

Tifa's hatred is aimed at a select few at SHINRA, the potential damage it might inflict in innocent lives obviously isn't something she's on board with. Tifa learned martial arts from Zangan in her younger years and then continued to run a bar in Midgar and help AVALANCHE create a hideout in the years after. She's not a merc. I would be hesitant to jump out of a moving train as well! :lew:

Voice acting aside though (even though I love the maturity in Tifa's voice ENG wise) I think Tifa is a hit or miss character for a lot of people. I tend to think that the people that dislike Tifa are either hardcore Clerith fans, or just don't understand Tifa's character, but perhaps that's my own bias coming into play. I loved her character long before I turned into a Cloti myself so that aside, I think there's a lot to her, I think there's a lot of growth, a lot of dedication to the ones she loves.

Just because she's a fighter doesn't mean she can't have inner turmoil, conflict, or a shy and reserved outlook on things.

That's just my two cents, though!

#teamtifa :D
 

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I love Tifa (completely as a stand-alone character, but I love CloudxTifa as well).

I think all the characters in the game are there for a reason, and I do think Tifa was mainly put in the game as development/growth arc for Cloud, but that doesn't take away from how well fleshed out I think her characters is. I'm talking across the board, btw.

I do think that being a martial artist/fighter type doesn't automatically mean you're the bomb at emotional expression, personal interactions, etc. She can throw a punch but I think her personality is otherwise quite reserved. Which is opposite in the girls. Tifa being more revealing in clothing but more reserved about feelings and emotions and shy. Aerith less revealing but a lot more flirty, doesn't shy away from feelings type of girl.

Just because she's a fighter doesn't mean she can't have inner turmoil, conflict, or a shy and reserved outlook on things.

Very much agree with these points. As far as the love interest trope goes, there's a lot of nuance and realism shown in Tifa's character. With other examples in the franchise like Rinoa (the everlasting pick-me girl), Tifa is leagues ahead of the curve. She is strong, determined and actively protective of other people (in that she will put herself in harm's way and defend them with everything she's got - think Advent Children and Marlene). Her self-awareness, doubt and ability to prioritise other people's needs and emotions over her own is arguably a better demonstration of her strength than her fighting prowess. It takes a lot courage to be a Tifa, she depends upon herself to see her and her loved one's through and very rarely asks for any emotional support. Her chastisement of Cloud in Advent Children is obviously coming from a place of hurt rather than an actual need for his help. In the FFVII Remake, she's been making her own way just fine for five years in the slums prior to the beginning of the story. The girl's more than capable.

Character's who are completely modeled on one personality trait, in this case 'strong', tend to be very one dimensional and difficult to connect with. An example would be the original Lara Croft, it's obviously not her personality that players cared about. She's the quintessential 'strong woman', self possessed and sure of any situation with absolutely zero emotional vulnerabilities - but this is toxic, unrelatable and highly idealised. It also casts emotional reservedness in one light: cool and detached rather than as a nuanced facet of a woman's personality.

The criticism of Tifa reflects a lot on how vulnerability is socially stigmatised. In order for Tifa to be understood as 'strong' she needs to be physically violent, be in complete control of her emotions and doubts, be willing to call out anything she disagrees with and have absolutely no fear of jumping off a moving train. This is only one view of what it is to be 'strong' with the idea that vulnerability, shyness and needing help is equated with weakness. Snowballing that, the idea that if Tifa, who is classified here as the 'strong' woman shows any emotional turmoil, a reluctance to speak up, or develops motherly tendancies that she is somehow being fake and performative due to this idealisation of strength. This idealisation overlooks the very fact that this version of 'strong' is in fact itself performative and fake because to be authentic is to be vulnerable and honest with one's own strengths and limitations.

Given that 'strength' can mean a lot more than fighting skills and assertiveness, I think Tifa's character proves that people can be more than one thing at a time. Tifa can have her girl boss moments and still be motherly, she beat the crap out of things and still be apprehensive about jumping off a moving train (doesn't this just make her smart though...?). Tifa experiencing emotional conflicts and turmoil or pursuing a romantic connection does not make her weak, it makes her human, relatable, and reflective of our own realities. If anything, she embodies the the complete contrast to Shinra's toxic corporate might, which actually shows the harm social idealisation of strength can cause.
 

Raspberry

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I do think that being a martial artist/fighter type doesn't automatically mean you're the bomb at emotional expression, personal interactions, etc. She can throw a punch but I think her personality is otherwise quite reserved. Which is opposite in the girls. Tifa being more revealing in clothing but more reserved about feelings and emotions and shy. Aerith less revealing but a lot more flirty, doesn't shy away from feelings type of girl.

My problem isn't that she's somewhat reserved/meek and a martial artist. My problem is that I believe she's just overly reserved and meek to the point that it's hard to believe the backstory the game provides for her. I don't find it a coincidence that the training of Zangan is usually glossed over without any forethought. I'm not saying she has to be a loudmouth who answers with her fists and is always ready for a fight. But the training Zangan provided has to make some form of kind of adjustment to the core personality. There's a reluctance to her, looking for a "hero", and just an overall sloth-like demeanor. She has the posture for combat, but it has this weighted look, defeated look about it.

I'm also going to say that the Tifa we see in the 1997 PS1 version of FF7, is completely different from the versions we see in later games. The 1997 version made me think she was younger, and slightly immature but not too immature to the point of being childish, just a lot of room to grow.The impression the game gives tells me Tifa didn't have time to grow up. She barely scrounged by and just lived in survival mode. Unfortunately, the remake gives her a more sultry, soft, effortlessly perfect vibe.

Tifa's hatred is aimed at a select few at SHINRA, the potential damage it might inflict in innocent lives obviously isn't something she's on board with. Tifa learned martial arts from Zangan in her younger years and then continued to run a bar in Midgar and help AVALANCHE create a hideout in the years after. She's not a merc. I would be hesitant to jump out of a moving train as well! :lew:
I don't see how being labeled as a "Merc" means anything.

Tifa survived the Nibleheim incident, she also trained in martial arts from Zangan and is housing Avalanche eco-terrorist. All these things to me, tell me she should be fully capable of jumping off a moving train. (And in the original, she was capable of doing it without a second thought). But it doesn't feel like not being able to jump off the train was for the sake of character development but rather another excuse for "Tifa/Cloud"

Voice acting aside though (even though I love the maturity in Tifa's voice ENG wise) I think Tifa is a hit or miss character for a lot of people. I tend to think that the people that dislike Tifa are either hardcore Clerith fans, or just don't understand Tifa's character, but perhaps that's my own bias coming into play. I loved her character long before I turned into a Cloti myself so that aside, I think there's a lot to her, I think there's a lot of growth, a lot of dedication to the ones she loves.

Although I can explain why Cloud/Aerith works (and why Cloud/Tifa is inviting a toxic relationship), I don't think that's the reason why people hate her as a character. And if there is a misunderstanding of her character, then don't you think that is enough to criticize? that her character isn't so easily understood?

Personally, I don't think her personality is hard to understand. it's just not really realistic. And for some people, they like the unrealistic, and for others it beats 1-dimensional character traits. But for me, I rather they be more than 2-dimensional traits just slapped together.

Just because she's a fighter doesn't mean she can't have inner turmoil, conflict, or a shy and reserved outlook on things. That's just my two cents, though!

#teamtifa :D
Tifa can definitely be a fighter and have inner turmoil and conflict and be shy/reserved. But I think the approach Square Enix has done, takes it a little too far to the point of not being realistic. And (no offense), can also feel like just male fantasy.

Very much agree with these points. As far as the love interest trope goes, there's a lot of nuance and realism shown in Tifa's character. With other examples in the franchise like Rinoa (the everlasting pick-me girl), Tifa is leagues ahead of the curve. She is strong, determined and actively protective of other people (in that she will put herself in harm's way and defend them with everything she's got - think Advent Children and Marlene). Her self-awareness, doubt and ability to prioritise other people's needs and emotions over her own is arguably a better demonstration of her strength than her fighting prowess. It takes a lot courage to be a Tifa, she depends upon herself to see her and her loved one's through and very rarely asks for any emotional support. Her chastisement of Cloud in Advent Children is obviously coming from a place of hurt rather than an actual need for his help. In the FFVII Remake, she's been making her own way just fine for five years in the slums prior to the beginning of the story. The girl's more than capable.

I don't need Tifa to be a role model, or be a feminist. I just need Tifa to be consistent enough to see those traits she does as a real person. And oftentimes I feel the Tifa we get on paper and the Tifa we see on screen does not correlate at all. it's that lack of correlation that makes her feel unrealistic. her backstory should matter enough to influence her personality to some extent, and it rarely feels attached to the person we see in the current timeline. one thing I don't consider Tifa is self-aware.

Often times it feels like her backstory exists just so she has a connection with Cloud's past. I truly believe that Tifa can have everything that you described, and still have a completely different personality, and it wouldn't change the story. Tifa as a "template" works, but I don't think Tifa as a "person" works. Tifa has some realistic traits, they just don't all add up because none of them have a correlation to make one real person.

And honestly, i prefer the Tifa we got in the PS1 version vs the new Tifa we get now.

Character's who are completely modeled on one personality trait, in this case 'strong', tend to be very one dimensional and difficult to connect with. An example would be the original Lara Croft, it's obviously not her personality that players cared about. She's the quintessential 'strong woman', self possessed and sure of any situation with absolutely zero emotional vulnerabilities - but this is toxic, unrelatable and highly idealised. It also casts emotional reservedness in one light: cool and detached rather than as a nuanced facet of a woman's personality.

Lara Croft being an example of one-dimensional is not an example of Tifa being multi-facet. Whether Lara Croft is realistic or not, i think at least she's "Consistent". Not to say there isn't any room for Lara Croft to be multi-facet but if she was, I still require her to have a correlation between different traits.

I believe Tifa has a personality that is not consistent with her background. Tifa tends to play the doe-eyed, perfectly calm, soft, and confident in flirting. For me, Tifa being vulnerable never feels vulnerable for the sake of telling us who she is but vulnerable for the sake of Cloud playing the Hero role. Tifa's very real flaws don't feel like they're supposed to be flaws, but rather another option for the male gaze.

These traits feel fake because they don't feel like traits meant to feel "human" but rather traits to make Tifa a "waifu". Especially because they weren't there in the original game.

The criticism of Tifa reflects a lot on how vulnerability is socially stigmatised. In order for Tifa to be understood as 'strong' she needs to be physically violent, be in complete control of her emotions and doubts, be willing to call out anything she disagrees with and have absolutely no fear of jumping off a moving train.
I think that's an exaggeration. She doesn't need to be physically violent, or outspoken. But she needs to be something that somewhat correlates to her background. Otherwise why have that background. Oh right, just to be a plot device for Cloud.

Let's be fair, we know that she trained in martial arts by a master, and whether that equates to strength or not, it still has to count for "something" within her personality. it doesn't mean she needs to be physically violent, it just means that she's no stranger to it. And having some reservations is true. But in the end, it took Cloud to capture her in his arms to jump.

This is only one view of what it is to be 'strong' with the idea that vulnerability, shyness and needing help is equated with weakness.
Again, I'll say that whether it's considered a strength or not, doesn't matter. What matters is what's presented as part of her character needs to count for something. if she was trained by a martial artist, you know they don't just train skills, they train the mind as well. And that means they target mental weaknesses as much as any vulnerabilities. The tools to work on them have to at least be present. With that said, look back at my post "Shy" was never mentioned to be my problem with Tifa.

It would make much more sense if Tifa was self-taught rather than trained by a master. A master would see through these vulnerabilities early on in youth and try to correct them. And that doesn't mean that Tifa will be perfect at it, but this is where I see the lack of self-awareness come through. She's not a character that is self-aware she was trained by a master and has skills.

Snowballing that, the idea that if Tifa, who is classified here as the 'strong' woman shows any emotional turmoil, a reluctance to speak up, or develops motherly tendancies that she is somehow being fake and performative due to this idealisation of strength. This idealisation overlooks the very fact that this version of 'strong' is in fact itself performative and fake because to be authentic is to be vulnerable and honest with one's own strengths and limitations.

I think as a woman who was interested in someone that someone else wanted, it can be really petty what lengths certain women will go (not me). And one of the things that women often do to get a man is make themselves smaller and dependent. Another known trait is pretending to be a tomboy to fit in with the guys. Most women who were competing for someone know about these personality traits. This is something I noticed with both Tifa and Aerith, but Aerith is more direct and playful. She's playing games but she isn't hiding it. Tifa on the other hand is consistently looking for opportunities to be weak to Cloud. And i personally find it toxic. Because it never feels like her true personality is being vulnerable, but rather exploiting it to get help.

And i think once you have that experience, you know what traits come off as fake and what come off as real.

Given that 'strength' can mean a lot more than fighting skills and assertiveness, I think Tifa's character proves that people can be more than one thing at a time. Tifa can have her girl boss moments and still be motherly, she beat the crap out of things and still be apprehensive about jumping off a moving train (doesn't this just make her smart though...?). Tifa experiencing emotional conflicts and turmoil or pursuing a romantic connection does not make her weak, it makes her human, relatable, and reflective of our own realities.

For me to believe that Tifa is both personality traits A and character trait C, and consider her a "realistic" character, there needs to be a correlation between the two traits. (trait B) And that's probably why it's such a problem. Based on the backstory we get from Tifa, someone who lost their parents to Sephiroth and her village burned down. Someone who was trained in martial arts by a so-called Master. Someone who escaped and sees the raw evil that Shinra is.

It all seems too "perfect" for her to still remain soft, and timid. and still looking for a hero after having to rely on herself and aiding an eco-terrorist group.


If anything, she embodies the the complete contrast to Shinra's toxic corporate might, which actually shows the harm social idealisation of strength can cause.
You're stretching that a little too thin at this point, aren't you?
 

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I don't need Tifa to be a role model, or be a feminist. I just need Tifa to be consistent enough to see those traits she does as a real person. And oftentimes I feel the Tifa we get on paper and the Tifa we see on screen does not correlate at all. it's that lack of correlation that makes her feel unrealistic. her backstory should matter enough to influence her personality to some extent, and it rarely feels attached to the person we see in the current timeline. one thing I don't consider Tifa is self-aware.

Often times it feels like her backstory exists just so she has a connection with Cloud's past. I truly believe that Tifa can have everything that you described, and still have a completely different personality, and it wouldn't change the story. Tifa as a "template" works, but I don't think Tifa as a "person" works. Tifa has some realistic traits, they just don't all add up because none of them have a correlation to make one real person.

And honestly, i prefer the Tifa we got in the PS1 version vs the new Tifa we get now.

I'm sorry if I misunderstand where exactly you're saying that Tifa's personality doesn't correlate, but I assume you're speaking specifically to the traumatic events of Nibelheim and how that trauma - in your view - should have had a particular impact on making Tifa who she is in the telling of the FFVII Remake.

From my view, the personality of Tifa (in FFVII Remake) could be considered consistent to the events and traumas of her past. We know that trauma does not always create a particular personality outcome. Speaking generally here, some people who experience traumatic events end up perpetuating and inflicting similar traumas onto others in later life; on the other hand, trauma can alternatively make the surviver emotionally empathetic and driven to help others in a similar plight.

From the get go, we see this version of Tifa falls into the spectrum closer to the latter category. The fighting skills she has learned are put in the service of helping others, defending them from monsters and Shinra alike. The connections she builds with other characters in the game show her outward focused nature, we can see she cares about others and helps protect locals through keeping streets clear of roaming beasties, and helping out on more menial tasks needed for everyday survival or well-being. We know that violence scares her (which we can see when she stops Cloud from going too far) and could also indicate that she believes strength should be used to defend and protect rather than for punishment and retribution.

This mindset also consistently ties into her reservations towards AVALANCHE. Although she clearly believes in the cause, she doesn't agree that the ends always justify the means. It could be interpreted that anything that would put innocents in harm's way, would make her doubt the sacrifices assumed 'necessary' by the cause (particularly Barrett) are solely their decision to make.

Lara Croft being an example of one-dimensional is not an example of Tifa being multi-facet. Whether Lara Croft is realistic or not, i think at least she's "Consistent". Not to say there isn't any room for Lara Croft to be multi-facet but if she was, I still require her to have a correlation between different traits.

I believe Tifa has a personality that is not consistent with her background. Tifa tends to play the doe-eyed, perfectly calm, soft, and confident in flirting. For me, Tifa being vulnerable never feels vulnerable for the sake of telling us who she is but vulnerable for the sake of Cloud playing the Hero role. Tifa's very real flaws don't feel like they're supposed to be flaws, but rather another option for the male gaze.

These traits feel fake because they don't feel like traits meant to feel "human" but rather traits to make Tifa a "waifu". Especially because they weren't there in the original game.

The comparison with Lara Croft was not to justify Tifa's multi-faceted personality - it was to show the expectations viewers have developed of the 'bad-ass woman' trope. Contextually speaking the original iterations of both Lara and Tifa found their platform in PS1 days and both share some very similar physical characteristics and costuming. Criticism of a character's developmental consistency can be derived from a presumption that this 'type of character' would act within expected parameters. It's interesting that both characters have gotten major updates to their characterisation in recent years.

I don't contest that one of Tifa's functions in the game is to act within the arc of Cloud's character development. Whether that development is centred around the male gaze is up for debate with enough evidence to support alternating viewpoints. There's definitely room to criticise the tired old tradition of using strong female characters to create scenarios with the sole purpose of raising up the main male protagonist - the FFVII Remake is not immune to falling into this narrative crutch.

Given all that, the fact that Tifa and Cloud have a long history together and have grown up in the same hometown does give us the chance to see some of her softer traits in a different light. There is a distinct possibility that Tifa might revert to parts of her 'younger self' when she's around Cloud. Being one of the few people who knows who she was and has experienced some of what she went through in Nibelheim, Cloud represents some of the best and worst parts of her early life. This could both contribute to her feeling a little vulnerable around him as well as cause her to experience a bit of (as Marshall from How I Met Your Mother puts it) 'revertigo'.

I think that's an exaggeration. She doesn't need to be physically violent, or outspoken. But she needs to be something that somewhat correlates to her background. Otherwise why have that background. Oh right, just to be a plot device for Cloud.

Let's be fair, we know that she trained in martial arts by a master, and whether that equates to strength or not, it still has to count for "something" within her personality. it doesn't mean she needs to be physically violent, it just means that she's no stranger to it. And having some reservations is true. But in the end, it took Cloud to capture her in his arms to jump.

Since this is down to the interpretation of every viewer, I can only give my own read on her character. From my perspective, trauma in Tifa's past and its galvanising effects on her decision to train in martial arts does not necessarily need to draw a straight line to her personality. This is why I brought up the biases attached to the 'bad ass woman' trope - the idea that a woman seeking out physical strength and fighting skills would necessarily have any knock-on effects to altering her personality, emotional expression and negating a need for help when facing a valid fear response, feels a little reductive. Her personality is in the 'why' she took up martial arts, not 'that' she did. Her reasoning would have very little to do with Cloud or furthering his story arc since all of that happened after they parted ways.

Again, I'll say that whether it's considered a strength or not, doesn't matter. What matters is what's presented as part of her character needs to count for something. if she was trained by a martial artist, you know they don't just train skills, they train the mind as well. And that means they target mental weaknesses as much as any vulnerabilities. The tools to work on them have to at least be present. With that said, look back at my post "Shy" was never mentioned to be my problem with Tifa.

It would make much more sense if Tifa was self-taught rather than trained by a master. A master would see through these vulnerabilities early on in youth and try to correct them. And that doesn't mean that Tifa will be perfect at it, but this is where I see the lack of self-awareness come through. She's not a character that is self-aware she was trained by a master and has skills.

Vulnerability and being emotionally driven are not weaknesses or need to be corrected - at least not in my view, which is why I see them as her true strength of personality. Her physical prowess wouldn't have anything much to do with her core self - it's like saying your profession has an affect on your personality rather than your personality effecting how you go about your profession.

I think as a woman who was interested in someone that someone else wanted, it can be really petty what lengths certain women will go (not me). And one of the things that women often do to get a man is make themselves smaller and dependent. Another known trait is pretending to be a tomboy to fit in with the guys. Most women who were competing for someone know about these personality traits. This is something I noticed with both Tifa and Aerith, but Aerith is more direct and playful. She's playing games but she isn't hiding it. Tifa on the other hand is consistently looking for opportunities to be weak to Cloud. And i personally find it toxic. Because it never feels like her true personality is being vulnerable, but rather exploiting it to get help.

And i think once you have that experience, you know what traits come off as fake and what come off as real.

Anecdotally speaking there's just as many stories of women adopting a 'tomboyish' nature to avoid the male gaze (think Billie Eilish) as there are ones who do it to 'fit in with the lads'. I assume you're not necessarily equating this self-expression to Tifa since she neither dresses nor acts as a 'tomboy'.

Your interpretation of her choices and personality expression are all valid, I just can't necessarily agree since I've never perceived her actions as being fake or needy. There are plenty of times where she chastises Cloud, both for his aloof nature towards people she cares about and when his violence goes too far. She also tries to help Cloud help himself and persists in her convictions even when he criticises her. There are many examples through the FFVII Remake and Advent Children where she tries to inspire Cloud to treat people better and take accountability. All of this investment on Tifa's part helps Cloud, definitely not herself (could you imagine the stress?), and pretty much forms the backbone of how Tifa functions storywise to prop Cloud up on his main male character pedestal.

It's these character traits which have spoken louder to me as consistent expressions of who Tifa is rather than any fear response or physical limitation she may experience. And she doesn't actually seem to experience these any more or less than other characters/members of AVALANCHE.

For me to believe that Tifa is both personality traits A and character trait C, and consider her a "realistic" character, there needs to be a correlation between the two traits. (trait B) And that's probably why it's such a problem. Based on the backstory we get from Tifa, someone who lost their parents to Sephiroth and her village burned down. Someone who was trained in martial arts by a so-called Master. Someone who escaped and sees the raw evil that Shinra is.

It all seems too "perfect" for her to still remain soft, and timid. and still looking for a hero after having to rely on herself and aiding an eco-terrorist group.

Firstly I definitely don't think Tifa, by any stretch of the imagination, can be construed as 'soft and timid'. She has her principles, a strong moral compass and stays as true as she possibly can to her internal convictions. The way I interpret her character is through the lens that the Nibelheim incident coalesced her will to fight to be in aid and defense of others. Hatred does not seem to drive her as much as it does the more extreme characters like Cloud or Barrett. Although she is emotionally reserved and struggles to express herself sometimes, she hasn't become distant or hardened. We may not be able to understand how a person can be so resilient in the face of such reckless hate, but that makes Tifa all the more surprising given the usual personality restrictions of the trope she occupies.

On a more personal note, I've known people in my life who have experienced some terrible traumas which have escalated their reserved personalities to being emotionally unavailable and even emotionally unresponsive in times of high stress. It takes a lot of understanding and fortitude to get through to them and loving them unconditionally despite how much they can inadvertently hurt you back. On this level I really commiserate with Tifa and how hard she has to try with Cloud to wake him up and to get him to care about something other than himself. That's an emotionally strained situation to be in and takes a lot of strength of character to see that through.

You're stretching that a little too thin at this point, aren't you?

Not exactly. It may seem hyperbolic, but the crux of the story is all about the unique and individual strengths of each of our heroes and how they rise up against a powerful organisation in an attempt to free the planet and their people from its exploitive stranglehold. Even Sephiroth the supposed villain of FFVII is a victim of Shinra and although he is incredibly powerful and strong, we are to understand that his heart, which is corrupted by vengeance, does not have what it takes to truly win.

Tifa's strength, much like Aerith's, is focused outwards for the benefit of others. Once Cloud awakens to the realisation that there is a higher purpose in fighting to help and protect others, not just for his own selfish reasons (which Tifa and Aerith have been trying to get through to him the whole time); he gains his own real strength and conviction. This is what makes him into true hero. A trait which, arguably, Tifa and Aerith had already learned for themselves long before he became part of their lives (again).


Wow, there was so much to unpack for this, it took ages to pick through it all and give it thought. If nothing else it was a great conversation!

My final thoughts are simply this:
From what I perceive of Tifa, her character is both consistent and sort of surprising given the limitations of Final Fantasy females. But all of this is largely based on my own interpretation of her actions as being largely selfless and outward focused. Anyone could easily see things differently - especially given the valid criticism of how her character is utilised in the story. The reasons and personality traits which I highlighted as being brave and strong might even been seen as weak and pathetic, but I think it reflects well overall on the character development that such differing views can exist in the first place!
 

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I'm sorry if I misunderstand where exactly you're saying that Tifa's personality doesn't correlate, but I assume you're speaking specifically to the traumatic events of Nibelheim and how that trauma - in your view - should have had a particular impact on making Tifa who she is in the telling of the FFVII Remake.

From my view, the personality of Tifa (in FFVII Remake) could be considered consistent to the events and traumas of her past. We know that trauma does not always create a particular personality outcome. Speaking generally here, some people who experience traumatic events end up perpetuating and inflicting similar traumas onto others in later life; on the other hand, trauma can alternatively make the surviver emotionally empathetic and driven to help others in a similar plight.

From the get go, we see this version of Tifa falls into the spectrum closer to the latter category. The fighting skills she has learned are put in the service of helping others, defending them from monsters and Shinra alike. The connections she builds with other characters in the game show her outward focused nature, we can see she cares about others and helps protect locals through keeping streets clear of roaming beasties, and helping out on more menial tasks needed for everyday survival or well-being. We know that violence scares her (which we can see when she stops Cloud from going too far) and could also indicate that she believes strength should be used to defend and protect rather than for punishment and retribution.

This mindset also consistently ties into her reservations towards AVALANCHE. Although she clearly believes in the cause, she doesn't agree that the ends always justify the means. It could be interpreted that anything that would put innocents in harm's way, would make her doubt the sacrifices assumed 'necessary' by the cause (particularly Barrett) are solely their decision to make.

So I'm going to be extremely blunt, not for the sake of clarifying or saying anything new, but so it's easier to discuss what the root problem with Tifa is.

Tifa in the 1997 FF7 version and the ps4 remake are completely different characters. In how they carry themselves, how they address characters. Tifa's problem is that she's less realistic than her original version. And the main reason why is for the sole fact that she doesn't have any real flaws to work on other than enabling Cloud's false memories.

You keep trying to convince me that the Tifa I see is a good character by telling me why you see her positively. And I'm trying to advise that she's too good that it drowns out any of the real flaws. I consider her weak for the real things she does, and the further you try to establish those are strong and enduring and reasonable, the more you are convincing me she isn't a real person based on her backstory.



The comparison with Lara Croft was not to justify Tifa's multi-faceted personality - it was to show the expectations viewers have developed of the 'bad-ass woman' trope. Contextually speaking the original iterations of both Lara and Tifa found their platform in PS1 days and both share some very similar physical characteristics and costuming. Criticism of a character's developmental consistency can be derived from a presumption that this 'type of character' would act within expected parameters. It's interesting that both characters have gotten major updates to their characterisation in recent years.

You're trying to justify your reasoning by subtly implying that people want Lara Croft's level of development. No one is expecting Tifa to be a "bad-ass woman". But i do expect Tifa to be a woman who should be consistent with her backstory in some shape or form without heavy imagination.

I don't contest that one of Tifa's functions in the game is to act within the arc of Cloud's character development. Whether that development is centred around the male gaze is up for debate with enough evidence to support alternating viewpoints. There's definitely room to criticise the tired old tradition of using strong female characters to create scenarios with the sole purpose of raising up the main male protagonist - the FFVII Remake is not immune to falling into this narrative crutch.

Given all that, the fact that Tifa and Cloud have a long history together and have grown up in the same hometown does give us the chance to see some of her softer traits in a different light. There is a distinct possibility that Tifa might revert to parts of her 'younger self' when she's around Cloud. Being one of the few people who knows who she was and has experienced some of what she went through in Nibelheim, Cloud represents some of the best and worst parts of her early life. This could both contribute to her feeling a little vulnerable around him as well as cause her to experience a bit of (as Marshall from How I Met Your Mother puts it) 'revertigo'.

Unfortunately, it's never truly shown in the game as a real flaw. And whether Tifa is doing it intentionally or not, it is manipulation.

Since this is down to the interpretation of every viewer, I can only give my own read on her character. From my perspective, trauma in Tifa's past and its galvanising effects on her decision to train in martial arts does not necessarily need to draw a straight line to her personality. This is why I brought up the biases attached to the 'bad ass woman' trope - the idea that a woman seeking out physical strength and fighting skills would necessarily have any knock-on effects to altering her personality, emotional expression and negating a need for help when facing a valid fear response, feels a little reductive. Her personality is in the 'why' she took up martial arts, not 'that' she did. Her reasoning would have very little to do with Cloud or furthering his story arc since all of that happened after they parted ways.

Vulnerability and being emotionally driven are not weaknesses or need to be corrected - at least not in my view, which is why I see them as her true strength of personality. Her physical prowess wouldn't have anything much to do with her core self - it's like saying your profession has an affect on your personality rather than your personality effecting how you go about your profession.
it's important to remember that Tifa's decision to learn martial arts isn't based on the Niebelheim incident. She was taught by Master Zangan before Sephiroth and the team arrived. In Crisis Core, she told directly to Zack via email that her reason was that she couldn't wait around for her blond knight in shining armor. it's also known that Zangan didn't stick around long after he rescued Tifa and took her to Midgar. It's also important to note that Tifa has always had a community volunteer attitude even in Niebelheim. Crisis Core shows she volunteered to show the Soldiers around. So for me, there's very little to interpret Tifa.

As for profession affecting personality? It is an objective fact that the profession you choose does have some effects on your personality-wise in some shape or form, especially if it's something that requires training. There are other video games with this very mechanic in mind such as Persona even uses part-time jobs to reinforce certain aspects of your player's personality. What you have said is objectively wrong when it comes to this.

this couldn't be more true trained for Martial Arts where the majority of the teachers believe to a certain extent in training the mind just as much as the body. Now don't get me wrong, not all Martial Artists are trained psychiatrists, but no one who trains you in self-defense is going to teach you to be ok with being vulnerable. Because they are going to teach you to be on guard, or to anticipate where enemies could hurt such weak spots.

So in the end, you missed my point entirely. it really doesn't matter that you think her vulnerability is considered a strength, I'm not here to prove it's a weakness. I'm not saying that Tifa can't be herself skilled in hand-to-hand combat and be ok to be vulnerable. But there needs to be a link to help make sense of the two different traits together. Otherwise, my problem with Tifa is that she's unrealistic.


Anecdotally speaking there's just as many stories of women adopting a 'tomboyish' nature to avoid the male gaze (think Billie Eilish) as there are ones who do it to 'fit in with the lads'. I assume you're not necessarily equating this self-expression to Tifa since she neither dresses nor acts as a 'tomboy'.
I'm only explaining what certain women have taught themselves to look out for in other women when she is a potential threat to a relationship. I'm just being candid on where my biases are coming from. I had my guard up when a boyfriend introduced me to one of his female friends, especially if she was popular in the group. And I'm not saying everyone thinks like me. But I guarantee you that if you met a woman exactly like Tifa in the real world, and you knew other real women, at least one of them will exclaim that she's fake.

Your interpretation of her choices and personality expression are all valid, I just can't necessarily agree since I've never perceived her actions as being fake or needy. There are plenty of times where she chastises Cloud, both for his aloof nature towards people she cares about and when his violence goes too far.
I still can't get behind the violence thing. This was something completely brand new introduced in this version of the remake. and it's never been something prominent, so I don't know how you can accept this brand new trait of hers. Especially because it goes against her chosen form of combat.

She also tries to help Cloud help himself and persists in her convictions even when he criticises her. There are many examples through the FFVII Remake and Advent Children where she tries to inspire Cloud to treat people better and take accountability. All of this investment on Tifa's part helps Cloud, definitely not herself (could you imagine the stress?), and pretty much forms the backbone of how Tifa functions storywise to prop Cloud up on his main male character pedestal.

It's these character traits which have spoken louder to me as consistent expressions of who Tifa is rather than any fear response or physical limitation she may experience. And she doesn't actually seem to experience these any more or less than other characters/members of AVALANCHE.

For me, all the traits you listed are tropes she was meant to have. It doesn't matter who Tifa is, she will have those traits regardless if her name was Tifa or Afit or Ritaf. Jessie and Aerith are those who can fit in that role if circumstances allowed it. But that's not the case. Tifa is just the luck of the draw. And it's because she can be any female supporting character that I find Tifa more generic than the previous girls.

So for me, I look for her faults to define her because of the fact that she is so generically perfect.



Firstly I definitely don't think Tifa, by any stretch of the imagination, can be construed as 'soft and timid'.
I assure you, this is not a stretch of the imagination. It just takes one gif of her to really see her that way. She looks half asleep in almost every conversation. She blinks half a second longer than the average human. And she seems to just have a sloth-like demeanor to her. Her battle stance although potentially accurate has a stiffness that looks like she's never been trained. Even at her most angry, I can't take it seriously. I take Aerith's anger more seriously than Tifa's.


She has her principles, a strong moral compass and stays as true as she possibly can to her internal convictions. The way I interpret her character is through the lens that the Nibelheim incident coalesced her will to fight to be in aid and defense of others.
She's no different in moral compass and convictions as the rest of the FF7 cast. It's really hard for me to claim you see this as a unique trait of Tifas in the FF7 game. I will say that in the ps1 version she was most willing to cast doubt about a situation. Which was refreshing, but in this one, her doubts seem different. It's not for a lack of experience, but rather just trying to put on a shy exterior. I feel like you use the word "interpret" a lot. As you're aware there are gaps in her character, gaps that in a way have to be explained by a hardcore Tifa fan.

Hatred does not seem to drive her as much as it does the more extreme characters like Cloud or Barrett. Although she is emotionally reserved and struggles to express herself sometimes, she hasn't become distant or hardened. We may not be able to understand how a person can be so resilient in the face of such reckless hate, but that makes Tifa all the more surprising given the usual personality restrictions of the trope she occupies.
And that's the problem.

On a more personal note, I've known people in my life who have experienced some terrible traumas which have escalated their reserved personalities to being emotionally unavailable and even emotionally unresponsive in times of high stress. It takes a lot of understanding and fortitude to get through to them and loving them unconditionally despite how much they can inadvertently hurt you back. On this level I really commiserate with Tifa and how hard she has to try with Cloud to wake him up and to get him to care about something other than himself. That's an emotionally strained situation to be in and takes a lot of strength of character to see that through.
rest assured you're not alone in that circumstance, I may even relate to you in that. But just because I can empathize with that situation, doesn't mean I relate to it in the game. Those real-life circumstances are really hard cards to deal with. They are unequal relationships that can't be helped. I don't think FF7 is trying to make us believe that Cloud/Tifa is an unequal relationship that can't be helped. I think the remake is so desperately trying to elevate Tifa that they forgot who she was in the original. And it sounds like the Advent Children interpretation of the character is coming out for you here. They made her too perfect, and that's the flaw. The smaller things that do stand out, stand out a lot more.

Not exactly. It may seem hyperbolic,

If it seems hyperbolic, then at least accept you're taking a stretch of the imagination to get a very specific point across. which is ok, you just have to be aware.

Tifa's strength, much like Aerith's, is focused outwards for the benefit of others. Once Cloud awakens to the realisation that there is a higher purpose in fighting to help and protect others, not just for his own selfish reasons (which Tifa and Aerith have been trying to get through to him the whole time); he gains his own real strength and conviction. This is what makes him into true hero. A trait which, arguably, Tifa and Aerith had already learned for themselves long before he became part of their lives (again).

In the original PS1 version, this makes perfect sense for Aerith. Aerith still had room to grow and still had reason to live, but sacrificed herself. It makes sense that the majority of her development was nearly complete to make her final act.

Tifa in the PS1 felt more real because she had real doubts while everyone was diving into one plan into the next (even Aerith was gun-ho about it). And in the end, Tifa was so subtle in her execution in the PS1 version. her lack of experience is shown more in the PS1 version than in the remake. Because in the remake, they try to make her into another Aerith. Adding more things that can rival her equally. It just ends up making Tifa into Aerith 2.0



My final thoughts are simply this:
From what I perceive of Tifa, her character is both consistent and sort of surprising given the limitations of Final Fantasy females. But all of this is largely based on my own interpretation of her actions as being largely selfless and outward focused. Anyone could easily see things differently - especially given the valid criticism of how her character is utilised in the story. The reasons and personality traits which I highlighted as being brave and strong might even been seen as weak and pathetic, but I think it reflects well overall on the character development that such differing views can exist in the first place!
I think you don't have the ability to see Tifa for the large gaps another person needs to take in order to understand her. and the fact that you used "interpret" and "could" and all these other terms to try to explain Tifa, made it that much harder for me to believe that Tifa is a well-thought-out character. that just the right group of people interpreted certain behaviors.

So if you can't understand why i hate her. at least understand why she's hard to understand her the way you do.
 

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I think you don't have the ability to see Tifa for the large gaps another person needs to take in order to understand her. and the fact that you used "interpret" and "could" and all these other terms to try to explain Tifa, made it that much harder for me to believe that Tifa is a well-thought-out character. that just the right group of people interpreted certain behaviors.

So if you can't understand why i hate her. at least understand why she's hard to understand her the way you do.

The only reason I say the words 'interpret' and 'could' throughout any response is because no opinion on a character's personality is gospel. Everyone's way of picking up what we are shown is unique and we all latch onto traits differently (negatively, positively, indifferently, or otherwise). It's not so much as there are 'gaps', it's the fact that any summary of a character is going to be an opinion - with a healthy dose of personal experiences, biases, projection and influences. As I've said before, your take on Tifa is perfectly valid, as is mine. We're obviously going to respectfully disagree because we have different mindsets, but the discussion is still good to have since it reveals our biases and airs out different insights. Lots of people like Tifa as a character, lots of people don't, and each have their own set of reasons as to why. At the end of the day though, this is not a Steven Crowder segment, I don't need to change your mind to validate my opinion :lew:
 

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The only reason I say the words 'interpret' and 'could' throughout any response is because no opinion on a character's personality is gospel. Everyone's way of picking up what we are shown is unique and we all latch onto traits differently (negatively, positively, indifferently, or otherwise). It's not so much as there are 'gaps', it's the fact that any summary of a character is going to be an opinion - with a healthy dose of personal experiences, biases, projection and influences.

Objectively there are 'gaps' within Tifa as a character if we're admitting to relying on personal experiences, biases, projection, and influences to explain her character. otherwise, the character would speak for themselves as they tell us why they do what they do. It's those gaps that allow Tifa to be interpreted so differently to the point of one group liking her and another disliking her. It's why we describe Tifa with "could" and "interpret" because it's not set in stone. It's not something the game wants to exactly put 2 and 2 together.

You flat-out admitted in prior comments there were things that aren't fully stated.

As I've said before, your take on Tifa is perfectly valid, as is mine. We're obviously going to respectfully disagree because we have different mindsets, but the discussion is still good to have since it reveals our biases and airs out different insights. Lots of people like Tifa as a character, lots of people don't, and each have their own set of reasons as to why. At the end of the day though, this is not a Steven Crowder segment, I don't need to change your mind to validate my opinion :lew:
I don't think your goal was ever to attempt to change my mind or to validate your opinion. I do believe that at least in the beginning, your intention was to invalidate mine. I don't feel fully respected for my point of view and saw several attempts to invalidate any criticism of Tifa. Not simply disagree or seeing it differently, but actually making my points seem like they were asking for something unrealistic of Tifa or asking for more shallow development. things like Lara Croft being that of a bad-ass trope, and repeating that trauma isn't a straight line. You know, obvious things that are not relevant to the discussion or are already being applied to the discussion before ever needing to be stated.
 
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I don't think your goal was ever to attempt to change my mind or to validate your opinion. I do believe that at least in the beginning, your intention was to invalidate my opinion.I don't feel fully respected for my point of view and saw several attempts to invalidate any criticism of Tifa. Not simply disagree or seeing it differently, but actually making my points seem like they were asking for something unrealistic of Tifa or asking for more shallow development. things like Lara Croft being that of a bad-ass trope, and repeating that trauma isn't a straight line. You know, obvious things that are not relevant to the discussion or are already being applied to the discussion before ever needing to be stated.

Sorry if that's how it came across, I'm telling you that wasn't my intention or my goal - I was trying to explain my way of thinking or why I thought of her the way I did. I wasn't exactly sure what contextual instances you were referring to beyond the 'jumping from a moving train', there weren't many examples given in addition to that so there did need to be a bit of guess work and generalities from my end in order to reply. Regardless, since the conversation wasn't relevant to your point or in anyways engaging, I'm sorry again, will leave it at that and stop wasting our time.
 

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Only gonna respond to bits and pieces I find interesting, because I do think everyone's entitled to their opinion. Other parts I just don't have much to comment on because it would be an "I disagree for the already mentioned reasons", and I'm also not trying to convince. I do find your points interesting to read, because I personally don't see it that way at all.

Seeing as Tifa is my favourite character in any FF, I personally don't see the "massive" difference between her PS1 persona and the Remake one. I think they were able to make it a lot "realistic", even though you feel like she's become less realistic with the remake, or less true to her "OG self".

Not to claim that I know better, that's not what I'm saying, it's just that the things you mentioned I genuinely don't see. I see the same hesitant and more reserved Tifa in both versions.

So if you can't understand why i hate her. at least understand why she's hard to understand her the way you do

I know this wasn't in response to me, but this I do think is fair. I can't understand the complete adoration for Aerith that people have, for example. It's personally just a character I never found myself to connect with in any way.

Not that this is to compare the two, but I do understand, and recognise sometimes you just don't like a character, it's not necessarily because there's "flaws".

I assure you, this is not a stretch of the imagination. It just takes one gif of her to really see her that way. She looks half asleep in almost every conversation. She blinks half a second longer than the average human. And she seems to just have a sloth-like demeanor to her. Her battle stance although potentially accurate has a stiffness that looks like she's never been trained. Even at her most angry, I can't take it seriously. I take Aerith's anger more seriously than Tifa's.

I have to admit that this seems more like hate or dislike for a character, to me, at least. I think there's a lot of anxiety to Tifa's character that a lot of people overlook. Being a fighter isn't her day job. Another thing that's often times overlooked. She's spent most of her adult years running a bar in Midgar, playing a support role in AVALANCHE. Iirc, she only goes with them and gets her hands dirty because Cloud is now back in the picture. (I do think that Tifa was specifically designed as a support character for Cloud in the game, as a lot of her personal "stand alone" character traits link directly back to Cloud and their hometown).

Objectively there are 'gaps' within Tifa as a character if we're admitting to relying on personal experiences, biases, projection, and influences to explain her character. otherwise, the character would speak for themselves as they tell us why they do what they do. It's those gaps that allow Tifa to be interpreted so differently to the point of one group liking her and another disliking her. It's why we describe Tifa with "could" and "interpret" because it's not set in stone. It's not something the game wants to exactly put 2 and 2 together.

I think this goes for almost every single cast member in FF7 (both OG, and Remake). Interpretation is inevitable, sometimes even intentional (hello, LTD! Hello, SE that knows exactly what they're doing!)

I find it quite interesting (albeit difficult) to see people perceive Tifa a completely different way. I personally see her as a well fleshed out character, that is both true to her OG and consistent in her mannerisms.
 

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Seeing as Tifa is my favourite character in any FF, I personally don't see the "massive" difference between her PS1 persona and the Remake one.
I think it's important to analyze one's preferences and make them clear. Tifa is a favorite to fans is something I can understand. Unfortunately, I understand at the level of "she's waifu material" but I understand nonetheless to a certain. To say she's your favorite character in ANY FF? Tifa must be accomplishing something no other FF character has accomplished I assume. And I think it's important if we are going to have this conversation moving forward, that you're candid about what you see in Tifa. And I'm not saying the obvious stuff, but the things that make her special to you.

I think they were able to make it a lot "realistic", even though you feel like she's become less realistic with the remake, or less true to her "OG self". Not to claim that I know better, that's not what I'm saying, it's just that the things you mentioned I genuinely don't see. I see the same hesitant and more reserved Tifa in both versions.

So I played, FF7 before there was any voice acting. So I remember how these characters sounded in my head. Cloud, Barett, Yuffie, Vincent, and even Cid were characters that were fairly accurate to how they sound in later releases. Aerith and Tifa were characters however sound completely different. In the original and in my mind, they had had a significantly younger tone and were unafraid to express themselves.

when I made this thread, I already finished replaying FF7 original and FF7 remake concurrently. My hatred for Tifa back then was more of a slight annoyance. But after completing both versions, I came to the conclusion that they aren't the same. Keep in mind that Tifa's doubts are focused on Cloud and how he remembers the past. All the other things that Tifa does is usually differing from Cloud being a leader, or openly giving Cloud a hard time about something. She does rely on Cloud to an extent, but never in a needy or "save me" style. Most of the time she's a straight arrow. She's not a leader obviously, but she isn't afraid to express an opposing view.

I know this wasn't in response to me, but this I do think is fair. I can't understand the complete adoration for Aerith that people have, for example. It's personally just a character I never found myself to connect with in any way.

Not that this is to compare the two, but I do understand, and recognise sometimes you just don't like a character, it's not necessarily because there's "flaws".

I have gripes about all of the female supporting cast (Jessie included). I actually dislike Aerith the least, or at least Aerith's base personality. I can imagine Aerith being real enough that she can be friends with the guys and be friends with me other girls. But Tifa, if she was a real person, her mannerisms, her tone, etc. I (and my other friends) would not feel comfortable with her, we would believe she was fake for the sake of getting a man or trying to be perfect.

I think now that in the remake Tifa's character is even more modeled after Aerith in a lot of ways to further enforce the love triangle. Completely self-less, adored by everyone, and all telling Cloud to not break their hearts. I think the comparison should be made more than ever and some form of analysis. For me, the difference is that Aerith was doing it before Tifa was. Tifa should've had her own way of standing out rather than having the same self-less traits as Aerith.

If i was tasked with remaking FF7 based purely on what I know about FF7 and FF7 alone, I'd make Tifa show her traits by being more of a soldier girl. treat the wounds of Avalanche members, but also teach self-defense based on what she learned from Zangan. Tifa lived the horrors of Niebelheim, so she can teach or learn on how to be private.



I have to admit that this seems more like hate or dislike for a character, to me, at least.

Well, I did create the thread with how I hate Tifa. so yes, I do absolutely hate Tifa. I am not shy about saying it. in the original, there was never even an ounce of Tifa being mild-mannered, soft-spoken, soft-expression, effortlessly pefect. She was humble, and clearly not the one that shined the most in the whole group. Tifa was part of the love triangle a different way.


I think there's a lot of anxiety to Tifa's character that a lot of people overlook.
If we're talking in the OG, I didn't see anxiety at all. I actually saw more depression in OG than anxiety. I think there were points where she openly said she was depressed. If we're talking about the remake, I saw semblances of what one could possibly interpret as anxiety. But not much that really made her stand out.

Being a fighter isn't her day job.
But it was a skill that requires training. A skill that does affect the personality to some extent. And once again, she had a teacher/master. a martial artist would ask to train the mind just as much as the body. it would've made more sense regardless that she was self-taught instead of being trained by someone with the rank of master because her natural ability in fighting can still exist and she can still lack the proper training to work with her mind. So it's not something to shrug off and shouldn't be ignored when evaluating Tifa as a consistent/inconsistent character. IIf Tifa was trained to be a hitman, regardless if she is one anymore, you would want some new information to bridge the two different traits together.

Another thing that's often times overlooked. She's spent most of her adult years running a bar in Midgar, playing a support role in AVALANCHE. Iirc, she only goes with them and gets her hands dirty because Cloud is now back in the picture. (I do think that Tifa was specifically designed as a support character for Cloud in the game, as a lot of her personal "stand alone" character traits link directly back to Cloud and their hometown).

It's not clear in the original whether she didn't go on enough missions. And I'm inclined to believe that Tifa maybe didn't do a lot of dangerous jobs. but in the original, she knew the plan, and in this one, she was as well. She knew enough to know the backup plans.


I think this goes for almost every single cast member in FF7 (both OG, and Remake). Interpretation is inevitable, sometimes even intentional (hello, LTD! Hello, SE that knows exactly what they're doing!)
The appeal to trust fallacy is unfortunately the one I don't follow. For god's sake, they still think Lightning and Lunafreya have good personalities. And although I agree that some characters require some interpretation, I feel Tifa you really need to dig deeper than the others to get a semblance of consistency.

FF7 cast wears their flaws on their sleeves. Almost like a dirty badge they can't shake off. And it's these very real flaws that whether I personally like them or not, I like they add so much variety. Cloud is cold and mission-focused to care about people. Barrett is a loudmouth and can even be overcompensating for losing his family and friend. Red XIII was too blind with bitterness and anger to really see other possibilities of what happened. And even Aerith has this problem. She thought Zack left her and had forgotten about her.

Tifa's has always been her need to tell Cloud the truth about his past. And it makes sense in the original ps1 version that her development is hinged on Cloud. But in the remake, they introduced new problems with her personality that I know SE isn't aware of.


I find it quite interesting (albeit difficult) to see people perceive Tifa a completely different way. I personally see her as a well fleshed out character, that is both true to her OG and consistent in her mannerisms.
It may be difficult because we now have a compilation of FF7 to make us forget the original design. So i offer you a challenge:

I want you to do your absolute best to forget every version of Tifa you know about and I want you to replay FF7 (original ps1 version) and really replay it like you don't know anything about the game and it's your first time experiencing it. just take the characters and the story as they are shown on screen. And if you require any additional interpretation, base it on the official artwork at the time


How the text is written, and what they're saying. And I want you to come back later, and give me your analysis of Tifa, based only on what you saw on screen and nothing else.
 

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Six

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I think it's important to analyze one's preferences and make them clear. Tifa is a favorite to fans is something I can understand. Unfortunately, I understand at the level of "she's waifu material" but I understand nonetheless to a certain. To say she's your favorite character in ANY FF? Tifa must be accomplishing something no other FF character has accomplished I assume. And I think it's important if we are going to have this conversation moving forward, that you're candid about what you see in Tifa. And I'm not saying the obvious stuff, but the things that make her special to you.

Yeah, she definitely has! I was pretty young and impressionable, but that doesn't take away from how much her character has stuck throughout the games I've played as I've gotten older. I think Final Fantasy VII in general is a game that has never been beat by any other FF for me, so perhaps that's why as well. Sure, though, we can get into that! Again, though, I'm not trying to convince you to see her differently. I do find it interesting peoples preferences and perceptions are so wildly different.

So I played, FF7 before there was any voice acting. So I remember how these characters sounded in my head. Cloud, Barett, Yuffie, Vincent, and even Cid were characters that were fairly accurate to how they sound in later releases. Aerith and Tifa were characters however sound completely different. In the original and in my mind, they had had a significantly younger tone and were unafraid to express themselves.

when I made this thread, I already finished replaying FF7 original and FF7 remake concurrently. My hatred for Tifa back then was more of a slight annoyance. But after completing both versions, I came to the conclusion that they aren't the same. Keep in mind that Tifa's doubts are focused on Cloud and how he remembers the past. All the other things that Tifa does is usually differing from Cloud being a leader, or openly giving Cloud a hard time about something. She does rely on Cloud to an extent, but never in a needy or "save me" style. Most of the time she's a straight arrow. She's not a leader obviously, but she isn't afraid to express an opposing view.

I also played FF7 before there was any voice acting. I think, if I'm honest, to this day, I kinda preferred it that way. However, the remake has grown on me. I hated the stockings they put on Tifa 'cause I'm a hardcore OG girl (FF7 in general), but that's grown on me, I mean... Had to. :lew: However, the comparison you make, I can see, but not with Tifa.

I'll use Aerith as an example because I can relate to you better in that way, the way you feel about Tifa, I think. I also have to clarify this was BEFORE I liked any pairing. My dislike for Aerith actually doesn't come from pairing preferences. I know a lot of people find that hard to believe on my end, but it actually is the truth.

In the OG, Aerith struck me as completely and overly out there, annoying and insensitive. Her demeanour (that was captured in text as well) seemed very dismissive if she wanted something even though other people might be struggling, or she was aware of other peoples feelings and still didn't care to be more cautious in her approach.

In the OG (no offense to her voice actress) but lord, was that irritation I had for her character doubled. So even though I understand your point, for me the characters did fit the voices, and truth be told, in Aerith's case, I wish it hadn't.

I have gripes about all of the female supporting cast (Jessie included). I actually dislike Aerith the least, or at least Aerith's base personality. I can imagine Aerith being real enough that she can be friends with the guys and be friends with me other girls. But Tifa, if she was a real person, her mannerisms, her tone, etc. I (and my other friends) would not feel comfortable with her, we would believe she was fake for the sake of getting a man or trying to be perfect.

I think now that in the remake Tifa's character is even more modeled after Aerith in a lot of ways to further enforce the love triangle. Completely self-less, adored by everyone, and all telling Cloud to not break their hearts. I think the comparison should be made more than ever and some form of analysis. For me, the difference is that Aerith was doing it before Tifa was. Tifa should've had her own way of standing out rather than having the same self-less traits as Aerith.

If i was tasked with remaking FF7 based purely on what I know about FF7 and FF7 alone, I'd make Tifa show her traits by being more of a soldier girl. treat the wounds of Avalanche members, but also teach self-defense based on what she learned from Zangan. Tifa lived the horrors of Niebelheim, so she can teach or learn on how to be private.

I'm actually the other way around. I think Aerith, in my personal opinion, is way too insensitive in any group of people I'd want her to be in. Not even fake but just, pay some attention to the people around you. Tifa on the other hand, how I perceive her, is more focussed on the people close to her, not so much any "outsiders". I think a lot of what I see in Tifa, I see in myself. Which is a bit shit to say because I don't want you to dislike me :ROFLMAO: but it's true. I think Tifa is a very genuine and cautious character that looks out for the people she loves. I don't see her as the type of person to go after anyone's man at all. AERITH on the other hand, I do see flirting or behaving in the way you mentioned. Again, not to make it about her, but that's why I find your views so bizarre. I get them - just not applied to the same character.

I think in the OG, Tifa was already very self-less and adored by everyone. I think that's always been the Tifa how I first got to know and perceive her character. She's always been a very back-burner character, but does speak her mind when she needs to, or goes in quite offensively when she feels called out. I think, because it's a video game - I can understand you wanting Tifa/Aerith to have different traits to one another, but in real life there's multiple people that have similar ways too. I didn't see this as an issue, but then I also see what I've explained above less in Aerith and more so in Tifa.

I don't see Tifa as a SOLDIER girl at all. Living through the horrors of the accidents in Nibelheim, losing her mother at a young age, her father during the Nibelheim incident, setting up a bar at a very young age, I think there's BOUND to be those "flaws" you refer to at times, where things don't really add up, and that is exactly how it adds up to me. It's not normal to go through all that trauma, being forced to grow up, lose everything you had and sort through your grief like that. There's going to be consistent inconsistencies (not to get poetic here) that are so extremely relatable when it comes to Tifa's character, and I love that.

Could she take on another role if the whole thing were to be remake? Sure, but that goes for all of the cast, I think. I understand your preference, though.

Well, I did create the thread with how I hate Tifa. so yes, I do absolutely hate Tifa. I am not shy about saying it. in the original, there was never even an ounce of Tifa being mild-mannered, soft-spoken, soft-expression, effortlessly pefect. She was humble, and clearly not the one that shined the most in the whole group. Tifa was part of the love triangle a different way.

...Fair. :wacky: I don't see this at all. Tifa in the OG, in my opinion, was all of the above due to how she kept a lot of things to herself. It wasn't the time to bring it up or she didn't want to bother the group with her personal gripes about things. I don't think Tifa is effortlessly perfect, though. I don't think she even tries to be. I think she just has (which I think shows in game, both OG and RE) a lot of inner conflict. Again, which I love because it's so relatable.

If we're talking in the OG, I didn't see anxiety at all. I actually saw more depression in OG than anxiety. I think there were points where she openly said she was depressed. If we're talking about the remake, I saw semblances of what one could possibly interpret as anxiety. But not much that really made her stand out.

Fair points. I think it's always been a mixture of both. I think if you're dealing with that much inner turmoil and anxiety, depression is inevitable.

But it was a skill that requires training. A skill that does affect the personality to some extent. And once again, she had a teacher/master. a martial artist would ask to train the mind just as much as the body. it would've made more sense regardless that she was self-taught instead of being trained by someone with the rank of master because her natural ability in fighting can still exist and she can still lack the proper training to work with her mind. So it's not something to shrug off and shouldn't be ignored when evaluating Tifa as a consistent/inconsistent character. IIf Tifa was trained to be a hitman, regardless if she is one anymore, you would want some new information to bridge the two different traits together.

The thing here, is that I'd agree if this were to be a consistent thing through her life. Mindset requires upkeep, if you're not keeping up with things they become less and less of a priority and less the thing that jumps out most about your personality. In my opinion, anyway. I don't know if the hitman thing was just a reference, but picking up self defense to not feel so hopeless and not be able to "fight back" so to speak doesn't mean she's a mean fighting machine. Especially not years later after running a bar for so long.

It's not clear in the original whether she didn't go on enough missions. And I'm inclined to believe that Tifa maybe didn't do a lot of dangerous jobs. but in the original, she knew the plan, and in this one, she was as well. She knew enough to know the backup plans.

Unpopular opinion, but I actually liked the conflict I saw in the Remake, it's what I expected more of in the OG with how I perceived Tifa's character, and I think a lot of what she said in the OG eluded to it, but was never really fleshed out in that sense.

Knowing about the plans doesn't mean you agree with it, though. Tifa, in the remake clearly got booted / walked out from the discussion because there was a disagreement she knew she had to come to terms with. What you see there, is her trying to do exactly that. It's not as inconsistent as it might seem. That in itself take a lot of strength to understand and accept your role isn't to call the shots.

The appeal to trust fallacy is unfortunately the one I don't follow. For god's sake, they still think Lightning and Lunafreya have good personalities. And although I agree that some characters require some interpretation, I feel Tifa you really need to dig deeper than the others to get a semblance of consistency.

FF7 cast wears their flaws on their sleeves. Almost like a dirty badge they can't shake off. And it's these very real flaws that whether I personally like them or not, I like they add so much variety. Cloud is cold and mission-focused to care about people. Barrett is a loudmouth and can even be overcompensating for losing his family and friend. Red XIII was too blind with bitterness and anger to really see other possibilities of what happened. And even Aerith has this problem. She thought Zack left her and had forgotten about her.

Tifa's has always been her need to tell Cloud the truth about his past. And it makes sense in the original ps1 version that her development is hinged on Cloud. But in the remake, they introduced new problems with her personality that I know SE isn't aware of.

Oh my lord, agreed on those two, for what it's worth.

Digging deeper is what I love about Tifa. I feel like she was intentionally created to not be a character you'd get at first glance. I think there's a lot of layers, not to be confused with being fake or inconsistent, but I do feel like you have to understand OTHER characters in order to understand Tifa. This I feel is more a creator issue though, when they introduce a character as support for the main.

Tifa's need to tell Cloud the truth was because she had no idea what had happened to him, but she knew something was off. To me that's intuition and care walking hand in hand. She could call it out, like say... Aerith might, but some things aren't just made to be called out. It can create a situation where it just spirals more out of control. To me, Tifa is portrayed as a character that can, most of the time, read the room well, and in my opinion, she knew Cloud's mental stability was too fragile, and in fact, she probably even questioned her own memory. Again, grief and trauma are strange things. I personally see that reflected in those struggles you just mentioned.

The other problems you're referring to in the remake, I don't know what they are, or if SE is aware of them or not.

It may be difficult because we now have a compilation of FF7 to make us forget the original design. So i offer you a challenge:

I want you to do your absolute best to forget every version of Tifa you know about and I want you to replay FF7 (original ps1 version) and really replay it like you don't know anything about the game and it's your first time experiencing it. just take the characters and the story as they are shown on screen. And if you require any additional interpretation, base it on the official artwork at the time


How the text is written, and what they're saying. And I want you to come back later, and give me your analysis of Tifa, based only on what you saw on screen and nothing else.

I mean, you clearly don't want people talking shit about your all time fav. :ROFLMAO: But I'd like to think as long as it's not pure disgusting (which is really just venting at that point) I can have a discussion / chat about it.

I've replayed the OG so many times, that I couldn't possibly make it / pretend it's the first time I'm experiencing it. However, I remember my first time (when my mom actually played the game and I was watching all of it) and all my impressions of the characters. I'll just throw Aerith and Tifa in here for contrast. ;)

With the image you provided.

e02fd5605034d479353e8ec6c50e2c1b-jpg.11950


Opinion on Aerith is and probably will always be: Great, another darker haired, light eyed girl dressed in pink. For me, THIS was what you refer to as the "male fantasy", although, if I'm honest, I find that term to be quite the meme.

Opinion on Tifa: Brown haired, brown eyed! Already relatable in both ways. If we're wanting to talk about physique, sure, she has boobs, I personally love it. I'm a straight female, and I'm totally there for Tifa with how she's presented, it represents plenty of women, depending on your clothing choice. I don't think it's just for the male gaze, I thought it was extremely refreshing to see a girl dressed like that NOT take on the dumb / weak / (excuse the lack of better wording) bimbo role.

The music that played when you first walked into the bar, Tifa's theme, also really set the mood when you learn they're childhood "friends", the whole scene just basically paved the way and I think Tifa walked it narrowly. She's (OG) exactly how I thought she would be when I first got a glimpse of her, and I was stoked. :lew:

Remake, I think took some getting used to, especially with the voice acting. But again, it was also how I imagine Tifa's character to be. I think they definitely expanded upon the relationship with AVALANCHE, considering Tifa has been around this people for some time, and Cloud's supposed "just" come back in her life, which I felt a bit lacking in the OG. More stand-off-ish with Barret than she needed to be.

But yeah, I'm not a huge debater, quite frankly, I don't enjoy it, but these are my points and how I perceive Tifa and why I love her as a character.
 

Raspberry

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I also played FF7 before there was any voice acting. I think, if I'm honest, to this day, I kinda preferred it that way. However, the remake has grown on me. I hated the stockings they put on Tifa 'cause I'm a hardcore OG girl (FF7 in general), but that's grown on me, I mean... Had to. :lew: However, the comparison you make, I can see, but not with Tifa.

I'll use Aerith as an example because I can relate to you better in that way, the way you feel about Tifa, I think. I also have to clarify this was BEFORE I liked any pairing. My dislike for Aerith actually doesn't come from pairing preferences. I know a lot of people find that hard to believe on my end, but it actually is the truth.

In the OG, Aerith struck me as completely and
overly out there, annoying and insensitive. Her demeanour (that was captured in text as well) seemed very dismissive if she wanted something even though other people might be struggling, or she was aware of other peoples feelings and still didn't care to be more cautious in her approach.

In the OG (no offense to her voice actress) but lord, was that irritation I had for her character doubled. So even though I understand your point, for me the characters did fit the voices, and truth be told, in Aerith's case, I wish it hadn't.

I'm actually the other way around. I think Aerith, in my personal opinion, is way too insensitive in any group of people I'd want her to be in. Not even fake but just, pay some attention to the people around you. Tifa on the other hand, how I perceive her, is more focussed on the people close to her, not so much any "outsiders". I think a lot of what I see in Tifa, I see in myself. Which is a bit shit to say because I don't want you to dislike me :ROFLMAO: but it's true. I think Tifa is a very genuine and cautious character that looks out for the people she loves. I don't see her as the type of person to go after anyone's man at all. AERITH on the other hand, I do see flirting or behaving in the way you mentioned. Again, not to make it about her, but that's why I find your views so bizarre. I get them - just not applied to the same character.
So after analyzing your preferences for Tifa and your distaste for Aerith, you shared a lot more about yourself than you realize.
From what you have expressed, you have a far-introverted personality and struggle with some form of codependency (family, friend, significant other. or just plain peers and acquaintances, etc.) and are unable to claim your space. So you relate to the soft and pleasant aspects of Tifa because you see that in yourself, and you like that she's seen well adored because it validates those behaviors as good personality traits. This personalization of Tifa to you is also blinding you from seeing the bigger gaps in her character. Because you believe to a certain extent, and have the same core personality, it is easier to confuse your personal interpretation as fact for those bigger gaps.

Aerith, because she has her own thoughts, her own ideas, and her own opinions and she isn't afraid of sharing them. And usually, people that don't like those traits struggle with codependency. Also, unlike Tifa, Aerith actually has zero experience in combat. So her behaviors are inline with that lack of experience.

But my problem, is that with Tifa, every slow movement, blink, or crack of a smile is looked at fake because genuinely believe someone can have those traits but does not have a single perceivable negative trait?

I don't hate you because I know you're more than the positive traits of Tifa. You may have your own flaws that you still overcoming or working on or even unaware of. Flaws that make sense with your personality but for some reason don't apply to Tifa. The thing with Tifa is that most of her flaws don't feel genuine because they all appeal to Cloud's heroism and his love triangle.


I think in the OG, Tifa was already very self-less and adored by everyone. I think that's always been the Tifa how I first got to know and perceive her character. She's always been a very back-burner character, but does speak her mind when she needs to, or goes in quite offensively when she feels called out. I think, because it's a video game - I can understand you wanting Tifa/Aerith to have different traits to one another, but in real life there's multiple people that have similar ways too. I didn't see this as an issue, but then I also see what I've explained above less in Aerith and more so in Tifa.
I agree that Tifa was on the backburner in the original. And that's something that really is missing in the remake. But it's not because its a video game that i desied Tifa to be different. It was because in the original she WAS different.

In the original Tifa was relied on by AVALANCHE, and drooled at by comedically masculine NPCs of sector 7 (as the female bartender stereotype), but was only really focused on being a mother figure to one person, Marlene. So Tifa was selfless at times but was just the right amount. The remake spikes it a couple of levels only for the sake of making her more appealing to the love triangle fanbase. Now she's not just supporting Marlene and AVALANCHE but all of Sector 7.


I don't see Tifa as a SOLDIER girl at all.

You misunderstand what i meant by a soldier girl. I didn't mean it as literally a girl for the fictional SOLDIER group. But someone who supports those who are going in the front lines. Either doing covert operations on the side, or getting information. Something proactive that allows her to make a difference. And that would coincide with what she's already doing with Avalanche.


Living through the horrors of the accidents in Nibelheim, losing her mother at a young age, her father during the Nibelheim incident, setting up a bar at a very young age, I think there's BOUND to be those "flaws" you refer to at times, where things don't really add up, and that is exactly how it adds up to m It's not normal to go through all that trauma, being forced to grow up, lose everything you had and sort through your grief like that. There's going to be consistent inconsistencies (not to get poetic here) that are so extremely relatable when it comes to Tifa's character, and I love that.
Your argument for Tifa's consistent inconsistencies is more of an Appeal to Mystery fallacy. Trauma isn't a trump card the unexplainable as a personality because trauma is a normal thing in everyday human life to some extent. And although Tifa's personal experience is not of the norm, the trauma that it causes is more normal than you realize. Especially because this is a video game/story where there's room to explore these things, its such a shame of how much interpretation it requires to even defend those large gaps. What you're really saying is that you personally don't understand Trauma, and because of that, you are seeing something you don't understand, and somehow exclaim extremely relatable. In the end, you're not relating to Tifa, you're relating to not understanding her.

This is what Tifa lovers aren't understanding. I'm not against Tifa's positive traits, But for me, having no perceivable negative traits while having all of the triggers for them is not realistic. If she overcame her flaws or issues, the game needs to address that. All her recognizable flaws are only intended to continue the story of Cloud's mysterious past. And unfortunately, there are gaps that require a little more exploring, but they're not. Her flaw only applies to Cloud and that's it even though that behavior should apply everywhere.

What I find inconsistent about Tifa, is that all her inconsistencies don't paint a better character, instead they appeal to the love triangle, not trauma. And that's why it doesn't feel genuine.


...Fair. :wacky: I don't see this at all. Tifa in the OG, in my opinion, was all of the above due to how she kept a lot of things to herself. It wasn't the time to bring it up or she didn't want to bother the group with her personal gripes about things. I don't think Tifa is effortlessly perfect, though. I don't think she even tries to be. I think she just has (which I think shows in game, both OG and RE) a lot of inner conflict. Again, which I love because it's so relatable.
I wasn't describing Tifa in the original, i was describing Tifa in the remake. In the original, i wouldn't describe Tifa that way either. But in the remake. i would. (see the gif attached to understand what i see)

tifa-tifa-lockhart.gif


^This isn't what I imagined in the original.



The thing here, is that I'd agree if this were to be a consistent thing through her life. Mindset requires upkeep, if you're not keeping up with things they become less and less of a priority and less the thing that jumps out most about your personality. In my opinion, anyway. I don't know if the hitman thing was just a reference, but picking up self defense to not feel so hopeless and not be able to "fight back" so to speak doesn't mean she's a mean fighting machine. Especially not years later after running a bar for so long.
I'm only asking for a correlation between the newly established personality of Tifa, her choice in combat, and her background. I'm only reasoning based on the traits. And the fact that it requires this much explaining is the exact problem. Her abilities to fight should matter to some degree, not find a reason why they don't.

Digging deeper is what I love about Tifa.

Digging Deeper is what you love to do with Tifa's character. And if you identify strongly with her positive traits, you're also possibly filling gaps for her sake because you believe she's modeled to some degree to your personality, and you are more likely to take that as fact.

I feel like she was intentionally created to not be a character you'd get at first glance. I think there's a lot of layers, not to be confused with being fake or inconsistent, but I do feel like you have to understand OTHER characters in order to understand Tifa. This I feel is more a creator issue though, when they introduce a character as support for the main.

I think Tifa was supposed to be a character that was intentionally designed to be overlooked the first time by how the extremely supportive role she had throughout the original. But I don't think Tifa was designed to be hard to understand or required this much analysis ont he gaps of her history and playstyle. I'll repeat myself that my problem isn't the positive traits. my problem is the lack of real flaws that come with some of the things she dealt with and they just don't exist, not even a little. And for me, there aren't as many layers as some Tifa fans like to claim. She's isn't a flat 1-Dimensional personality, but gaps in explaining who she is isn't the same as deep character.

Tifa seems fake because every mannerism she makes is done too perfectly soft, and flirtatious. the reason why I find her inconsistent is because there is very big gaps between what we see in her (new) personality traits and what skills she adopted, and what past she has. And if what i'm seeing is supposed to be interpreted trauma, its a very very bad interpretation.

I think Aerith is better because Aerith's adjustments to her personality are shown in the prequels, unlike Tifa.


Tifa's need to tell Cloud the truth was because she had no idea what had happened to him, but she knew something was off. To me that's intuition and care walking hand in hand. She could call it out, like say... Aerith might, but some things aren't just made to be called out. It can create a situation where it just spirals more out of control. To me, Tifa is portrayed as a character that can, most of the time, read the room well, and in my opinion, she knew Cloud's mental stability was too fragile, and in fact, she probably even questioned her own memory. Again, grief and trauma are strange things. I personally see that reflected in those struggles you just mentioned.
These can be perceived as codependency. The need to be liked and not go against the current, and care about what others think regardless if it is unhealthy or toxic.

These are things that are in the original, and its objectively something she worked on...but only for Cloud and not for her own personal development. But i don't believe Tifa knew about his fragile mind at the time.

I've replayed the OG so many times, that I couldn't possibly make it / pretend it's the first time I'm experiencing it. However, I remember my first time (when my mom actually played the game and I was watching all of it) and all my impressions of the characters. I'll just throw Aerith and Tifa in here for contrast. ;)

I still insist you still try to play FF7 with the new perspective of this debate taken place. Try to see what i see by actually replaying it yourself rather than just going through memory. My thread was made because i played FF7 and the remake right before it. I guarantee you, once you see it, it can't be unseen.

With the image you provided.
e02fd5605034d479353e8ec6c50e2c1b-jpg.11950


Opinion on Aerith is and probably will always be: Great, another darker haired, light eyed girl dressed in pink. For me, THIS was what you refer to as the "male fantasy", although, if I'm honest, I find that term to be quite the meme.

Opinion on Tifa: Brown haired, brown eyed! Already relatable in both ways. If we're wanting to talk about physique, sure, she has boobs, I personally love it. I'm a straight female, and I'm totally there for Tifa with how she's presented, it represents plenty of women, depending on your clothing choice. I don't think it's just for the male gaze, I thought it was extremely refreshing to see a girl dressed like that NOT take on the dumb / weak / (excuse the lack of better wording) bimbo role.

I wanted you to look at this image as you replay FF7 while avoiding the new material presented. I specifically wanted you to focus on their facial expressions. If you actually look at their faces, you'll see that Tifa

With that said, having a specific hair or eye color doesn't make her less or more relatable. Tifa is based on the idealized Japanese women and the term is called "Yamato nadeshiko". The only problem is that there are other characters who are based on that mentality and still have done it better. For example, Yukiko Amagi from Persona 4.


The music that played when you first walked into the bar, Tifa's theme, also really set the mood when you learn they're childhood "friends", the whole scene just basically paved the way and I think Tifa walked it narrowly. She's (OG) exactly how I thought she would be when I first got a glimpse of her, and I was stoked. :lew:
FOr me, the music setting the tone of the scene didn't set the tone of Tifa's personality. This is also not good because AErith's theme isn't that different either, and yet you seem to see a completely different Aerith regardless. The same applies to Kairi's theme in Kingdom Hearts 1. She was a huge tomboy that was open and expressive and yet her personal theme was somber and slow. Tifa's dialogue is still expressive and open with Cloud with no reservations.
 

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In the OG, Aerith struck me as completely and overly out there, annoying and insensitive. Her demeanour (that was captured in text as well) seemed very dismissive if she wanted something even though other people might be struggling, or she was aware of other peoples feelings and still didn't care to be more cautious in her approach.

In the OG (no offense to her voice actress) but lord, was that irritation I had for her character doubled. So even though I understand your point, for me the characters did fit the voices, and truth be told, in Aerith's case, I wish it hadn't.

I'm actually the other way around. I think Aerith, in my personal opinion, is way too insensitive in any group of people I'd want her to be in. Not even fake but just, pay some attention to the people around you. Tifa on the other hand, how I perceive her, is more focussed on the people close to her, not so much any "outsiders". I think a lot of what I see in Tifa, I see in myself. Which is a bit shit to say because I don't want you to dislike me :ROFLMAO: but it's true. I think Tifa is a very genuine and cautious character that looks out for the people she loves. I don't see her as the type of person to go after anyone's man at all. AERITH on the other hand, I do see flirting or behaving in the way you mentioned. Again, not to make it about her, but that's why I find your views so bizarre. I get them - just not applied to the same character.

I like both Aerith and Tifa as characters, arguably moreso Aerith but that's mostly due to the fact that I can appreciate her 'otherness' which has isolated her from everyday people and can relate to her closer connection to the land rather than people in general. Anyways, as I was saying, I like them both a lot as individual characters and actually dislike it when they are reduced down to their 'pairings', not saying that your reply was doing this, just observing in general that it seems to carry a lot of weight when discussing either of their personalities.

I definitely agree with your take on Tifa being very outward focused and connected to her community of people. I also would not read her as being the type of person to pursue anyone's man or to act a role to manipulate a man away from anyone else - there's no evidence to show that she acts any differently when other women flirt with Cloud in her presence, and there's no evidence of her ever sabotaging his connections with anyone.

Despite Aerith being flirty at times, I don't read her actions towards Cloud as anything other than seeking a connection with someone with apparent ties to a man she once loved. If we consider how she was around Zack, a lot more open and apparent with her want to spend more time with him, the comfort she showed him during his grief at the loss of Angeal, and her apparent connection with Zack when she sensed his passing - I think it's safe to say this is a far more obvious expression of romantic interest than she's ever explicitly shown for Cloud - she even goes so far as to call any feelings Cloud may have for her as 'not real'. All of this is to say that, neither Tifa nor Aerith are in competition with each other and I don't see either of them as being so insensitive as to undermine each other to get close to Cloud - they have too much self respect and consideration towards each other (and Cloud for that matter) to act so pathetically. We also see this through the friendship that grows between Tifa and Aerith. Although Tifa is unsure of Aerith's behaviour at first, they do end up supporting each other and bringing out each other's strengths.

Tifa and Aerith's friendship shows off Tifa's protective nature to really good effect. I like how encouraging she is towards Aerith and love how she sometimes takes command of the team (like when they need to drain the water in the sewers and Tifa puts Cloud on the sidelines "watching out for any more red lights" :LOL: - that was truly hilarious).

I think in the OG, Tifa was already very self-less and adored by everyone. I think that's always been the Tifa how I first got to know and perceive her character. She's always been a very back-burner character, but does speak her mind when she needs to, or goes in quite offensively when she feels called out. I think, because it's a video game - I can understand you wanting Tifa/Aerith to have different traits to one another, but in real life there's multiple people that have similar ways too. I didn't see this as an issue, but then I also see what I've explained above less in Aerith and more so in Tifa.

I don't see Tifa as a SOLDIER girl at all. Living through the horrors of the accidents in Nibelheim, losing her mother at a young age, her father during the Nibelheim incident, setting up a bar at a very young age, I think there's BOUND to be those "flaws" you refer to at times, where things don't really add up, and that is exactly how it adds up to me. It's not normal to go through all that trauma, being forced to grow up, lose everything you had and sort through your grief like that. There's going to be consistent inconsistencies (not to get poetic here) that are so extremely relatable when it comes to Tifa's character, and I love that.

I like this idea of consistent inconsistencies, it's reflective of reality where so many times people don't stick to their own script. It's why I brought up earlier in the conversation how people can become the way they are either because of or in spite of their past, even remaining as they were prior to trauma just in a more concentrated dose. I think this ties a bit to your observations on mindset needing to be maintained in order to stay relevant in someone's current reality.

...Fair. :wacky: I don't see this at all. Tifa in the OG, in my opinion, was all of the above due to how she kept a lot of things to herself. It wasn't the time to bring it up or she didn't want to bother the group with her personal gripes about things. I don't think Tifa is effortlessly perfect, though. I don't think she even tries to be. I think she just has (which I think shows in game, both OG and RE) a lot of inner conflict. Again, which I love because it's so relatable.

The thing here, is that I'd agree if this were to be a consistent thing through her life. Mindset requires upkeep, if you're not keeping up with things they become less and less of a priority and less the thing that jumps out most about your personality. In my opinion, anyway. I don't know if the hitman thing was just a reference, but picking up self defense to not feel so hopeless and not be able to "fight back" so to speak doesn't mean she's a mean fighting machine. Especially not years later after running a bar for so long.

Unpopular opinion, but I actually liked the conflict I saw in the Remake, it's what I expected more of in the OG with how I perceived Tifa's character, and I think a lot of what she said in the OG eluded to it, but was never really fleshed out in that sense.

Knowing about the plans doesn't mean you agree with it, though. Tifa, in the remake clearly got booted / walked out from the discussion because there was a disagreement she knew she had to come to terms with. What you see there, is her trying to do exactly that. It's not as inconsistent as it might seem. That in itself take a lot of strength to understand and accept your role isn't to call the shots.

Exactly this, I don't think that her ability to fight would necessarily be reflective of her personality or perspectives. For example, someone can play and compete in sports yet hate being in competition with people (admittedly that's totally me) - point being that people can participate in activities yet exhibit personality traits outside of the expected 'requirements'. Arguably this might affect a person's overall competency, returning to the example of sports, a competitive person would likely be much hungrier for the win and therefore play better. Perhaps it could be said that Tifa's fighting skills might be lacking in some way, but again, I agree it has little to do with the consistency of her personality. Like I said before, it's more integral to understand why she fights rather than simply looking at the fact that she does.

The conflict we see in Tifa's character does reveal her doubts and insecurities, you're right that she doesn't act like a person trying to be effortlessly perfect. She simply acts like a person who is trying her best. I think in some ways it would be frustrating trying to reach out and get Tifa to open up a little, and would be difficult to convince her of your intentions since she does seem to default a bit towards distrust, especially with 'outsiders', but I can appreciate her reasoning and understand why she does it - I just don't agree with it in all instances.

100% agree that it takes a lot of strength of character to accept a more subordinate role when it comes to decision making. This is where I think Tifa is very self aware and chooses her battles wisely.

Oh my lord, agreed on those two, for what it's worth.

Digging deeper is what I love about Tifa. I feel like she was intentionally created to not be a character you'd get at first glance. I think there's a lot of layers, not to be confused with being fake or inconsistent, but I do feel like you have to understand OTHER characters in order to understand Tifa. This I feel is more a creator issue though, when they introduce a character as support for the main.

I kind of agree and disagree on this point. Tifa is definitely a multi-faceted character but honestly I think most of the characters in the game are. I think in general the story is far more nuanced that most other Final Fantasy titles and the need to dig a bit deeper to appreciate the sense behind characters' actions and motives happens across the board, not just with Tifa. I understand that you're not specifically saying that this is necessarily unique to how Tifa is introduced and used throughout the narrative, but I point this out because I don't think it's a creator 'issue' so much as it is by design. The reason FFVII is so loved I think, is the complexity of the story and how the moral dilemmas ask us to connect and empathise with the characters - if people were easier to read and acted how we think would logically fit their profile, I don't think we would be as challenged to do this.

As an aside, I know you're not at all saying characters should act in specific ways, I'm making the point in general.

Anyways, as one of those people who likes both Tifa and Aerith, I'll say one final observation:
Both characters do have a lot in common; they've both lost their parents, have endured trauma due to the evil of Shinra, and have had to fend for themselves in a lot of ways. Yet they seem to be pitted against each other a lot, as though one needs to be lesser and not as good in order for the other to be seen as valid and strong. Contextually speaking, there's no actual evidence which shows either character acting manipulative or fake, it looks to me like many of these arguments are based on a lot of projected biases and assumptions on how females act when there's a man in the room. I personally find it as tiring as the whole Team Edward and Team Jacob thing, it's as though we haven't grasped that someone can fit perfectly well with more than one person and both situations are just as valid as each other, and it's really just down to life situations as to which one it works out with better.

At the end of the day, Sephiroth made the decision for us......maybe he is a hero after all :whistle2:
 
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Six

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So after analyzing your preferences for Tifa and your distaste for Aerith, you shared a lot more about yourself than you realize.
From what you have expressed, you have a far-introverted personality and struggle with some form of codependency (family, friend, significant other. or just plain peers and acquaintances, etc.) and are unable to claim your space. So you relate to the soft and pleasant aspects of Tifa because you see that in yourself, and you like that she's seen well adored because it validates those behaviors as good personality traits. This personalization of Tifa to you is also blinding you from seeing the bigger gaps in her character. Because you believe to a certain extent, and have the same core personality, it is easier to confuse your personal interpretation as fact for those bigger gaps.

Aerith, because she has her own thoughts, her own ideas, and her own opinions and she isn't afraid of sharing them. And usually, people that don't like those traits struggle with codependency. Also, unlike Tifa, Aerith actually has zero experience in combat. So her behaviors are inline with that lack of experience.

But my problem, is that with Tifa, every slow movement, blink, or crack of a smile is looked at fake because genuinely believe someone can have those traits but does not have a single perceivable negative trait?

I don't hate you because I know you're more than the positive traits of Tifa. You may have your own flaws that you still overcoming or working on or even unaware of. Flaws that make sense with your personality but for some reason don't apply to Tifa. The thing with Tifa is that most of her flaws don't feel genuine because they all appeal to Cloud's heroism and his love triangle.

:wacky: Sorry, but I have to disagree, and I also don't believe in being blinded by things because you recognise yourself in certain aspects. I'd like to think I can be objective, whether we have opposing views on a character, shouldn't then come down to one person being blinded and only seeing the good parts. I like Tifa because she's a well rounded character, she has her flaws, she's far from perfect. When I say I can relate to Tifa on a personal level I relate to the points where she is more of a "this is my person/these are my people" type. Introvert, sure, but I think even extraverts can be this way.

I think Tifa very much has her own thoughts and ideas, also shares them when necessary. There's a thing called tact. Tifa has it, Aerith lacks it, in my opinion. Just because you don't always share / blurt out your opinion and time them doesn't mean you struggle to express yourself.

I don't think Tifa is perfect at all, but I've already said this to you. I don't really understand why you keep saying she's "waifu" material. I mean, I don't really understand what your actual gripe here really is, even from reading all you've shared.

Aerith the green eyed, pink dressed, hinting church going girl seems more like "waifu-material" to me, even though if I were to be a guy, I'd definitely go for Tifa myself. Not because of her being perfect though, personal preference, which all of this comes down to as well, is really a thing. They could both be exactly the same, but dressed/look different and people still wouldn't go for the same girl/guy.

The remake spikes it a couple of levels only for the sake of making her more appealing to the love triangle fanbase. Now she's not just supporting Marlene and AVALANCHE but all of Sector 7.

Based on what are you saying this? Why make her more appealing for the love triangle fanbase? We're 25 years into FF7, people join the LTD to this day, the majority because of the OG game, others perhaps because they only played the remake but base their opinions, similar to how we did with the OG back in the day. Tifa was never just supporting Marlene and AVALANCHE.

If you play the OG, you have Johnny stood outside the bar, you have the people on the right side of Seventh Heaven gossiping about Tifa and Cloud. Just because it wasn't expanded upon doesn't mean it wasn't there, and it certainly doesn't mean Tifa wasn't liked around the parts and only exisiting for a select few.

You misunderstand what i meant by a soldier girl. I didn't mean it as literally a girl for the fictional SOLDIER group. But someone who supports those who are going in the front lines. Either doing covert operations on the side, or getting information. Something proactive that allows her to make a difference. And that would coincide with what she's already doing with Avalanche.

Fair point in clarifying. I think Tifa falls in the "both" category. Which, on an unrelated note is what the whole gripe seems to be about. "A character can't have it both ways". I find a lot of people come across as intimidated by Tifa if they dislike her. You referred to it previously, but the "steal your man" comment, when really, that's Aerith with her open flirtatiousness. Tifa seems to have eyes for only one man. I wouldn't be concerned. 🤷‍♀️

Your argument for Tifa's consistent inconsistencies is more of an Appeal to Mystery fallacy. Trauma isn't a trump card the unexplainable as a personality because trauma is a normal thing in everyday human life to some extent. And although Tifa's personal experience is not of the norm, the trauma that it causes is more normal than you realize. Especially because this is a video game/story where there's room to explore these things, its such a shame of how much interpretation it requires to even defend those large gaps. What you're really saying is that you personally don't understand Trauma, and because of that, you are seeing something you don't understand, and somehow exclaim extremely relatable. In the end, you're not relating to Tifa, you're relating to not understanding her.

This is what Tifa lovers aren't understanding. I'm not against Tifa's positive traits, But for me, having no perceivable negative traits while having all of the triggers for them is not realistic. If she overcame her flaws or issues, the game needs to address that. All her recognizable flaws are only intended to continue the story of Cloud's mysterious past. And unfortunately, there are gaps that require a little more exploring, but they're not. Her flaw only applies to Cloud and that's it even though that behavior should apply everywhere.

What I find inconsistent about Tifa, is that all her inconsistencies don't paint a better character, instead they appeal to the love triangle, not trauma. And that's why it doesn't feel genuine.

I mean, you are entitled to your opinion, but if you're referring to what the FF7 cast, or Tifa in this case went through as normal day trauma, I'd be a little concerned. I understand you continued to say that it's not the norm, but you then continue to explain that it's more normal than I realise, sorry, but people deal with trauma in different ways. I think Tifa's character deals with it in a way that is true to herself. I think to "this day" - when we play FF7, she still struggles with it.

I'd appreciate if you didn't assume what I'm really saying, though. What I was really saying was exactly as I said in my previous post, and I don't think it's very productive or necessary to assume who does or doesn't understand trauma. We don't know each other like that.

When I say that Tifa is an extremely relatable character, I meant that on even a surface level. How often do you see brown haired/brown eyed girls starring in a game? For me often times girls starring in games aren't comparable to what we got with Tifa, a lot of people classifying her as a "slut / bimbo" due to her clothing style, her bigger bust, or simple for the fact that they preferred Aerith. You seem to underestimate how often this happens in real life as well, I think people are just too insecure within themselves and they have to find flaws in people to make themselves feel better.

Everyone has flaws, so does Tifa. Her strengths can also be a weakness, she's selfish in her ways with Cloud at times, where she doesn't care to save the world but she cares to save Cloud.

Digging Deeper is what you love to do with Tifa's character. And if you identify strongly with her positive traits, you're also possibly filling gaps for her sake because you believe she's modeled to some degree to your personality, and you are more likely to take that as fact.

It's what I love about all characters. The ones that have more layers, relatable or not. I don't believe she's modelled to my personality. I just like Tifa. It's as simple as that. :lew: I like how she looks, I like monk characters, I like her interactions, I love the Cloud and Tifa pairing, I love the backstory for them. What is there not to like?! :D

These can be perceived as codependency. The need to be liked and not go against the current, and care about what others think regardless if it is unhealthy or toxic.

These are things that are in the original, and its objectively something she worked on...but only for Cloud and not for her own personal development. But i don't believe Tifa knew about his fragile mind at the time.

I referred to it before, but there's a thing called tact. Reading the room, it's not about not going against the current, it's about finding the right time to possibly set someone's world upside down.

If you know someone from childhood and they come in with a completely different timeframe than you are certain to know about, I'm positive you'd question this as well. Pretty sure the ultimanias (or whatever lore was behind it) showed that Tifa found Cloud on the train station not at all acting like himself, due to Mako or whatever it was (don't quote me on the mako) so combine that plus hearing about a completely different timeframe than what you recall, ALSO being able to read people - you consider others. There's nothing toxic about this.

Tifa seems fake because every mannerism she makes is done too perfectly soft, and flirtatious. the reason why I find her inconsistent is because there is very big gaps between what we see in her (new) personality traits and what skills she adopted, and what past she has. And if what i'm seeing is supposed to be interpreted trauma, its a very very bad interpretation.

I think you see what you focus on. This can go for both of us. I don't think either of us are blind to it, as you mentioned earlier about me, but I just think that the perception that Tifa is perfect seems almost insecure to me like I mentioned before. She isn't? She doesn't need to be, but her traits do make her likeable, and my personal favourite character.

Aerith's character isn't one I find interesting at all for already given reasons.

I don't think Tifa is perfectly soft and flirtatious either. Maybe it's just the way you see her? "Sultry"? That's fair, but that's your perception, that doesn't make it fact.

I still insist you still try to play FF7 with the new perspective of this debate taken place. Try to see what i see by actually replaying it yourself rather than just going through memory. My thread was made because i played FF7 and the remake right before it. I guarantee you, once you see it, it can't be unseen.

I think you and I just have a lot of differences in likes and dislikes, is what this comes down to. Because I could sit here and say I can guarantee you that if you replay and try and see it differently, you could, but I don't believe that, necessarily. I don't believe the things you point out about Tifa even exist. Perfect traits, flirtatious movements, slow blinking, like... What weird things to pick on? :lew:

I wanted you to look at this image as you replay FF7 while avoiding the new material presented. I specifically wanted you to focus on their facial expressions. If you actually look at their faces, you'll see that Tifa

With that said, having a specific hair or eye color doesn't make her less or more relatable. Tifa is based on the idealized Japanese women and the term is called "Yamato nadeshiko". The only problem is that there are other characters who are based on that mentality and still have done it better. For example, Yukiko Amagi from Persona 4.

I think you didn't finish your first sentence here. The faces, I love Tifa's face. I think she's an attractive woman, that caught my eye because she looks more tom-boy-ish than your typical pink dressed, green eyed Aerith. She looks genuine, kind and warm. I like that. I think that shows in the games. I don't think she's perfect. I don't think that exists. Even in the gaming world.

FOr me, the music setting the tone of the scene didn't set the tone of Tifa's personality. This is also not good because AErith's theme isn't that different either, and yet you seem to see a completely different Aerith regardless. The same applies to Kairi's theme in Kingdom Hearts 1. She was a huge tomboy that was open and expressive and yet her personal theme was somber and slow. Tifa's dialogue is still expressive and open with Cloud with no reservations.

Music is very personal. What someone finds soothing, riles someone else up and vice versa, but it's fair it didn't do that for you, it did for me. Aerith's theme is different, I mean they literally are different soundtracks - the atmosphere set with Aerith wasn't the same for me as Tifa's was the point I was making.

Tifa is reserved even with Cloud. Otherwise she'd just blurted out he's an idiot for getting the timeline wrong.



Also Galadín I'm gonna compile a response to yours because my fingers hurt lmao.

You're a Team Aerith, huh? :ahmed: Explains a lot... (I'm kidding!)

I like this idea of consistent inconsistencies, it's reflective of reality where so many times people don't stick to their own script. It's why I brought up earlier in the conversation how people can become the way they are either because of or in spite of their past, even remaining as they were prior to trauma just in a more concentrated dose. I think this ties a bit to your observations on mindset needing to be maintained in order to stay relevant in someone's current reality.

People are consistently inconsistent in their day to day lives. Check yourself on social media for example. A lot of people wouldn't say what they do on their in real life. For various reasons. I think it's human nature to have inconsistencies, we're not machines after all.

I understand that you're not specifically saying that this is necessarily unique to how Tifa is introduced and used throughout the narrative, but I point this out because I don't think it's a creator 'issue' so much as it is by design. The reason FFVII is so loved I think, is the complexity of the story and how the moral dilemmas ask us to connect and empathise with the characters - if people were easier to read and acted how we think would logically fit their profile, I don't think we would be as challenged to do this.

Correct! I meant in general, but specifically Tifa for me, personally. I agree with the reasons for why you love FF7, it was a big part of that for me as well. VII really set the tone in general, and I think that's also why another FF title afterwards never really stood out to me as much anymore.
 

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:wacky: Sorry, but I have to disagree, and I also don't believe in being blinded by things because you recognise yourself in certain aspects. I'd like to think I can be objective, whether we have opposing views on a character, shouldn't then come down to one person being blinded and only seeing the good parts. I like Tifa because she's a well rounded character, she has her flaws, she's far from perfect. When I say I can relate to Tifa on a personal level I relate to the points where she is more of a "this is my person/these are my people" type. Introvert, sure, but I think even extraverts can be this way.
So I tackle Tifa like I tackle any character, as a "Character". I'm not going to analyze Tifa in a way where it elevates her to real life but I will compare her to real life to make a point about her personality. or lack thereof.

For characters, I usually analyze what the story wants me to see. Does the author want me to believe the flaws I'm seeing or is it an oversight? or worse, is it idolization of these flaws and presenting them as features?

If we want to be objective, we should at least be self-aware enough to ask ourselves "Is this what's actually there, or am I perceiving it that way?"

I don't think Tifa is perfect at all, but I've already said this to you. I don't really understand why you keep saying she's "waifu" material. I mean, I don't really understand what your actual gripe here really is, even from reading all you've shared.
IF you don't understand, you can simply ask.

Aerith the green eyed, pink dressed, hinting church going girl seems more like "waifu-material" to me, even though if I were to be a guy, I'd definitely go for Tifa myself. Not because of her being perfect though, personal preference, which all of this comes down to as well, is really a thing. They could both be exactly the same, but dressed/look different and people still wouldn't go for the same girl/guy.

Tifa is designed to be that of the "Yamato Nadeshiko" archetype. Google it and you'll find how there are so many characters with Tifa's likeness. It's the perfect representation of the Japanese ideal woman. Soft-spoken, kind, elegant, and always moves carefully and with intention. Also perfect black straight hair and brown eyes is common with Yamato Nadeshiko.

Based on what are you saying this? Why make her more appealing for the love triangle fanbase?
For your first question: Based on the stark difference between the original and the remake. As for your second question, the answer is: Why wouldn't they?

We're 25 years into FF7, people join the LTD to this day, the majority because of the OG game, others perhaps because they only played the remake but base their opinions, similar to how we did with the OG back in the day. Tifa was never just supporting Marlene and AVALANCHE.

If you play the OG, you have Johnny stood outside the bar, you have the people on the right side of Seventh Heaven gossiping about Tifa and Cloud. Just because it wasn't expanded upon doesn't mean it wasn't there, and it certainly doesn't mean Tifa wasn't liked around the parts and only exisiting for a select few.
Johnny being outside of the bar and people gossiping about Tifa and Cloud were simple things. It didn't suggest Tifa outright helped all of Sector 7. Only that she was well known. And it's not even a problem to be well-liked either. But FF7 remake wants to do this whole "side story" of Tifa and Aerith exploring their humble ventures trying to improve Midgar and the people while still acting humble.

Fair point in clarifying. I think Tifa falls in the "both" category. Which, on an unrelated note is what the whole gripe seems to be about. "A character can't have it both ways". I find a lot of people come across as intimidated by Tifa if they dislike her. You referred to it previously, but the "steal your man" comment, when really, that's Aerith with her open flirtatiousness. Tifa seems to have eyes for only one man. I wouldn't be concerned. 🤷‍♀️

I said if Tifa existed in the real world, but I didn't say Cloud. Whether she is intending to date someone I was interested in or not, isn't the main point. It's her mannerisms, and movements that existed in the real world, they would come off as incredibly fake because no one moves like that.

There's a sloth-like to her movements as if she is held together by a puppeteer. Every gesture she makes is to enforce the anime-girl stereotype. And trust me, I see it on all the women in FF7. Jessie, Yuffie, and Aerith. But their anime-like features never seemed with the purpose of making them more attractive.
I mean, you are entitled to your opinion, but if you're referring to what the FF7 cast, or Tifa in this case went through as normal day trauma, I'd be a little concerned. I understand you continued to say that it's not the norm, but you then continue to explain that it's more normal than I realise, sorry, but people deal with trauma in different ways. I think Tifa's character deals with it in a way that is true to herself. I think to "this day" - when we play FF7, she still struggles with it.
Trauma is a normal human experience. Tifa's experience is unique only at a surface level. many people within the world of FF7 have lost someone they love due to war. everyone tackles trauma differently..Unfortunately, we don't get a good glimpse of how Tifa even remotely handles it, how she keeps it buried, and what she does to get through the day.

And this is assuming the writers want us to believe she is struggling with Trauma. it's not normal to experience something like that and not have some demons show up every now and then. It would've made her more human to have her actually struggle with it than act like she has surpassed the past. So i'm going to repeat that Tifa should have something to work on when it comes to that past.

I'd appreciate if you didn't assume what I'm really saying, though. What I was really saying was exactly as I said in my previous post, and I don't think it's very productive or necessary to assume who does or doesn't understand trauma. We don't know each other like that.
If you are trying to say symptoms of trauma are unexplainable things, then you are admitting you don't know it. I don't need to know you like that to say what i said. If you disagree with that statement, then you may have to change your point.

My problem with this statement is that it doesn't really matter if she has trauma or not. You're appealing to not understanding everything about a person in real life, therefore, the lack of understanding is relatable to Tifa. That just doesn't work for a character in a story that is able to explore more ways to understand a character. Especially because we're not stuck with Cloud's viewpoint.


When I say that Tifa is an extremely relatable character, I meant that on even a surface level. How often do you see brown haired/brown eyed girls starring in a game? For me often times girls starring in games aren't comparable to what we got with Tifa, a lot of people classifying her as a "slut / bimbo" due to her clothing style, her bigger bust, or simple for the fact that they preferred Aerith. You seem to underestimate how often this happens in real life as well, I think people are just too insecure within themselves and they have to find flaws in people to make themselves feel better.

I think there's a character that outshines Tifa, and that is Yukiko from Persona 4. She struggles with being too relied on, fails to understand that some boys are hitting on her, and feels indebted to her family. But the thing is, Persona 4 doesn't treat these like some tiny quirks to elevate her personality, they are real flaws and they're treated as such and are dealt with directly.

Andi do concede that people are flawed individuals who will show their insecurities of other real people. But I don't think that is what is happening with Tifa.

Everyone has flaws, so does Tifa. Her strengths can also be a weakness, she's selfish in her ways with Cloud at times, where she doesn't care to save the world but she cares to save Cloud.
Unfortunately, the game wants us to believe this is an endearing quality. And she's never put in a position where she needs to choose the world over Cloud. She doesn't alienate anyone either for her views. This is what we call "Fake Flaws". Flaws that you are supposed to like, regardless if they can be perceived as flaws.

It's what I love about all characters. The ones that have more layers, relatable or not. I don't believe she's modelled to my personality. I just like Tifa. It's as simple as that. :lew: I like how she looks, I like monk characters, I like her interactions, I love the Cloud and Tifa pairing, I love the backstory for them. What is there not to like?! :D
So far, you have associated Tifa with some of your own personality traits that you've openly admitted. So forgive me it's really hard to believe now.
I referred to it before, but there's a thing called tact. Reading the room, it's not about not going against the current, it's about finding the right time to possibly set someone's world upside down.

If you know someone from childhood and they come in with a completely different timeframe than you are certain to know about, I'm positive you'd question this as well. Pretty sure the ultimanias (or whatever lore was behind it) showed that Tifa found Cloud on the train station not at all acting like himself, due to Mako or whatever it was (don't quote me on the mako) so combine that plus hearing about a completely different timeframe than what you recall, ALSO being able to read people - you consider others. There's nothing toxic about this.
i don't perceive that in Tifa in the original. Although I concede the choice to make her reveal it later rather than sooner is based on story reasons.

I think you see what you focus on. This can go for both of us. I don't think either of us are blind to it, as you mentioned earlier about me, but I just think that the perception that Tifa is perfect seems almost insecure to me like I mentioned before. She isn't? She doesn't need to be, but her traits do make her likeable, and my personal favourite character.

Aerith's character isn't one I find interesting at all for already given reasons.
I describe Tifa as perfect because all her traits are made to be likable, and all her flaws are designed to like her more. They're never there to define Tifa as a human who has things to work on. IN the end, Tifa is roughly the same character she was before but with the addition of now learning to tell Cloud the past.

I like Aerith for the very reasons you don't like her. She's flawed, she's openly imperfect. And she does get in the way of the Team at times. But its not about love triangle for me. I just like Aerith more than Tifa. I don't think Aerith should end up with Cloud. But i also don't think Tifa should end up with him either. Especially if she continues to be the same person since ff7.

I don't think Tifa is perfectly soft and flirtatious either. Maybe it's just the way you see her? "Sultry"? That's fair, but that's your perception, that doesn't make it fact.
ii dont see any other perception to challenge mine.
tifa-tifa-lockhart-ff-vii-final-fantasy-final-fantasy7-gif-17071830

tifa-lockhart-smile-cloud-gif-17925938

tifa-tifa-lockhart-ffvii-ff7-ff7r-gif-16009704

tifa-lockhart-ffvii-remake.gif

I think you and I just have a lot of differences in likes and dislikes, is what this comes down to. Because I could sit here and say I can guarantee you that if you replay and try and see it differently, you could, but I don't believe that, necessarily. I don't believe the things you point out about Tifa even exist. Perfect traits, flirtatious movements, slow blinking, like... What weird things to pick on? :lew:
Slow blinking, flirtatious movements, perfect traits. Its all to further elevate the point that Tifa isn't a unrealistic character only designed to be liked. She has a very human backstory but rarely does it correlate to the TIfa i see in the remake.

I think you didn't finish your first sentence here. The faces, I love Tifa's face. I think she's an attractive woman, that caught my eye because she looks more tom-boy-ish than your typical pink dressed, green eyed Aerith. She looks genuine, kind and warm. I like that. I think that shows in the games. I don't think she's perfect. I don't think that exists. Even in the gaming world
i think i[m going to continue to describe TIfa as perfect in the sense of never having real flaws that the game wants to outright correct. just minor or fake flaws.

People are consistently inconsistent in their day to day lives. Check yourself on social media for example. A lot of people wouldn't say what they do on their in real life. For various reasons. I think it's human nature to have inconsistencies, we're not machines after all..
in the real world, hypocrisy and inconsistency with what they say and do is called cognitive dissonance. Its real, and it is a real flaw that in psychology you try to work on. Because cognitive dissonance provides negative traits.

However, once again, appealing to real life isn't a good excuse for characters unless the goal is to have cognitive dissonance .

I like this idea of consistent inconsistencies, it's reflective of reality where so many times people don't stick to their own script. It's why I brought up earlier in the conversation how people can become the way they are either because of or in spite of their past, even remaining as they were prior to trauma just in a more concentrated dose. I think this ties a bit to your observations on mindset needing to be maintained in order to stay relevant in someone's current reality.

The term is cognitive dissonance. Unfortunately, it's not a good excuse for Tifa. Unless the game actively wants us to believe what we're witnessing is Cognitive dissonance.

Exactly this, I don't think that her ability to fight would necessarily be reflective of her personality or perspectives. For example, someone can play and compete in sports yet hate being in competition with people (admittedly that's totally me) - point being that people can participate in activities yet exhibit personality traits outside of the expected 'requirements'. Arguably this might affect a person's overall competency, returning to the example of sports, a competitive person would likely be much hungrier for the win and therefore play better. Perhaps it could be said that Tifa's fighting skills might be lacking in some way, but again, I agree it has little to do with the consistency of her personality. Like I said before, it's more integral to understand why she fights rather than simply looking at the fact that she does.
So once again, i must educate you that learning specific skills that require extensive training does alter the personality. Now keep in mind, it doesn't mean that she has a new personality, but the personality is affected.

But this does matter to Tifa because learning martial arts "from a teacher" and be skilled does make it inconsistent to someone who also hates violence. and its those inconsistencies that just further paint Tifa as a likable character, but not a better character. its these things that in the original weren't there.

The conflict we see in Tifa's character does reveal her doubts and insecurities, you're right that she doesn't act like a person trying to be effortlessly perfect. She simply acts like a person who is trying her best. I think in some ways it would be frustrating trying to reach out and get Tifa to open up a little, and would be difficult to convince her of your intentions since she does seem to default a bit towards distrust, especially with 'outsiders', but I can appreciate her reasoning and understand why she does it - I just don't agree with it in all instances.

my point isn't that she tries to act effortlessly perfect. that's an oxymoron. try = effort. Effortlessly perfect = perfect without trying.

And that is in her mannerisms, her speech, etc.
100% agree that it takes a lot of strength of character to accept a more subordinate role when it comes to decision making. This is where I think Tifa is very self aware and chooses her battles wisely.

As oppose to what? Tifa has two options, be the main character or not. And most FF characters dont even try to fight for that seat, they just naturally be supportive or not. So i dont know why you see this as a strength unique to Tifa.
Anyways, as one of those people who likes both Tifa and Aerith, I'll say one final observation:
Both characters do have a lot in common; they've both lost their parents, have endured trauma due to the evil of Shinra, and have had to fend for themselves in a lot of ways. Yet they seem to be pitted against each other a lot, as though one needs to be lesser and not as good in order for the other to be seen as valid and strong. Contextually speaking, there's no actual evidence which shows either character acting manipulative or fake, it looks to me like many of these arguments are based on a lot of projected biases and assumptions on how females act when there's a man in the room. I personally find it as tiring as the whole Team Edward and Team Jacob thing, it's as though we haven't grasped that someone can fit perfectly well with more than one person and both situations are just as valid as each other, and it's really just down to life situations as to which one it works out with better.

At the end of the day, Sephiroth made the decision for us......maybe he is a hero after all :whistle2:

So i only expressed my experience, because in the past i had to look for "Fakeness". the context is reality.
 

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well at least she looks beautiful in the remake and got voice acting with Britt Baron
while Aerith being voice acted by Brianna White, who youtubes with StrangeRebellGaming and her Con coming up end of this month
 

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My stance on Tifa is that I felt she was a little understated in the Remake, we never really got much of her fiesty/bratty behaviour like in the original - A little too plain jane. If anything Arieth was far more energetic this going - Especially with that damn chair shot! :ROFLMAO: Tifa just didn't stand out much at all to me this time around, maybe when we get the Nibelheim story in the next release her involvement and emotions will be more forthcoming.

On a side note, I am getting fed up with Tifa being the talking point online over the actual game. It's getting nausating, especially when people celebrate her birthday or state she is a real representative of their nation 8( The funny thing is depsite Nomura's sexualised design (Which is certainly iconic) it never really fit Tifa's personality - She's hardly seductive, if anything she is meant to represent a childhood friend which of course gets complex later due to Cloud's identity crisis. I can at least see the reasoning behind Resident Evil Village's Lady Dimitrescu, her and her subordinates have that sexy/vamperic thing going - But once again, the internet has blown this out of proprotion too yet I can see the inspirtation from the character to lead them on. For Tifa, I can't help but find it a quite shallow that all these dweebs online keep drooling over her.
 

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My stance on Tifa is that I felt she was a little understated in the Remake, we never really got much of her fiesty/bratty behaviour like in the original - A little too plain jane. If anything Arieth was far more energetic this going - Especially with that damn chair shot! :ROFLMAO: Tifa just didn't stand out much at all to me this time around, maybe when we get the Nibelheim story in the next release her involvement and emotions will be more forthcoming.

I think objectively, Tifa was really plain, but it doesn't help that despite being so plain, so many characters elevated her in the story. also the most anime-esque movements and reactions than any other character.


On a side note, I am getting fed up with Tifa being the talking point online over the actual game. It's getting nausating, especially when people celebrate her birthday or state she is a real representative of their nation 8( The funny thing is depsite Nomura's sexualised design (Which is certainly iconic) it never really fit Tifa's personality - She's hardly seductive, if anything she is meant to represent a childhood friend which of course gets complex later due to Cloud's identity crisis. I can at least see the reasoning behind Resident Evil Village's Lady Dimitrescu, her and her subordinates have that sexy/vamperic thing going - But once again, the internet has blown this out of proprotion too yet I can see the inspirtation from the character to lead them on. For Tifa, I can't help but find it a quite shallow that all these dweebs online keep drooling over her.

Although I find Nomura's design a little sexualized, other than the pencil mini skirt, it looked pretty practical and true to the fiesty/bratty attitude she had in the original. In the remake, the subtle changes make her cover more skin, but not in practical ways. Its as if she's ready for battle all the time. And on top of adding to the remake that she isn't always battle-ready was just jarring to see.

well at least she looks beautiful in the remake and got voice acting with Britt Baron
while Aerith being voice acted by Brianna White, who youtubes with StrangeRebellGaming and her Con coming up end of this month
I think Tifa is the only voice actress that doesn't fit with her design. It's a beautiful voice but sounds incredibly older than she appears.
 
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I think this all comes down to personal preference, it's the only way I can look at this, truth be told, the exact same can be argued for any other character. It's just a preference on which characters you like and dislike.

On a side note, I am getting fed up with Tifa being the talking point online over the actual game. It's getting nausating, especially when people celebrate her birthday or state she is a real representative of their nation

This isn't a Tifa exclusive thing, though. :wacky: Loads of people in the FF fandom go wild with these things.

The funny thing is depsite Nomura's sexualised design

Unpopular opinion, but I don't think Tifa's design is necessarily even sexual. It's how some people perceive it perhaps, but in itself I don't think it's sexual. Unless we're talking about a bigger bust here that still doesn't equal sexual design.

I don't think it says anything about the character itself but more about the people "obsessing" so to speak. I don't think that should ruin a character for you, although I have to admit I do find some of the more "thirsty" FF girl fans quite frustrating to deal with myself as well. But hey.

Also, I don't know what planet you guys live on but I didn't get bratty from the OG... :wacky: Poor girl's just misunderstood.

I think Tifa is the only voice actress that doesn't fit with her design. It's a beautiful voice but sounds incredibly older than she appears.

Hmm... I disagree. I liked her voice. I first would've loved Jessie's voice for Tifa, until I actually heard more of Tifa's voice actress in game. I think it suits her personality. I don't think it sounds "old/older", perhaps it has a maturity level to it, but I feel like that compliments her character well.
 
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