I think I have found the true reason why I can't stand this game...

Shaissa

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For a few years now I have stated out of all the games in the main franchise, this one has been one of the worst for me. I couldn't really figure out why, I find the first two disks to be overall enjoyable, so I know it isn't the GF system that they use, or the drawing of magic that drags the game on sometimes, It has to be something else for me... Then it clicked while going to another game that I actually like. Chrono Trigger. Both games have some "time traveling" element in it, although in Chrono Trigger it is the main focus, versus FFVIII where it was focused on, but wasn't like you personally were traveling through time... well sorta weren't...just going into other peoples heads...sorta... But here is the problem with some things like FFVIII and other media that does time traveling... for FFVIII the events must have happened already, for Squall went back through the time compression and saw the point that Edea became a sorceress, and you basically get this infinite loop, which makes playing the game technically events that already occurred and anything you do useless.

How do I know these events already happened? While for one in order for there to be Gardens and SEEDS, the events must have occurred, for Squall has to plant that idea into Edea. Then both Cid and Edea knew what was going to happen, at least as far as stopping a sorceress, and knowing Edea was already a sorceress that changes everything. Then you have the fact that Ellone had Squall and gang go into the past to go into the thoughts of Laguna, Kiros, and Ward, which is confirmed when you meet them as Squall and they talk about "the faries" (aka your voices talking to them.)

This to me is the worst and laziest type of time travel, because then you basically a) claim the world is on an infinite loop and b) claim that your events already occurred and you are stuck on that path. Which is all but confirmed around disk 3 and disk 4 when it all comes into play. This is what drove me mad, because Square did a great time travel game in Chrono Trigger, where the group actually could change events and you could see that play out in side missions and the endings, so why did they have to take this crazy loopy way out in Final Fantasy VIII?


Then there is one more bit of things that bugs me about VIII which comes into play late in disk 2 or 3 (forget when) and that is the whole Memory loss thing. This to me is a very bad cop out to a story line that was actually half way decent up to this point. Why couldn't you just have them all already know about their past? Did the need to make them forget everything have to be added? And if the GFs really take away long term memory, why would anyone even allow them to be used? Wouldn't parents be mad that people they send to school suddenly can forget who raised them? This again was a very bad lazy plot point with the time traveling loop that with a little more thought could have easily been avoided and been able to make a good story. Instead we get this mess of two disks that after you beat the game one time makes you realize that your characters already did everything so they weren't changing history or saving the world really, they were just doing what they did so many times before because time would be going in circles.
 
I don't have a whole lot to add to this potential conversation, since I agree that FFVIII is hugely a mess (despite it still being one of my favorites), and I've only ever played through half of Chrono Trigger; and that was like ten years ago.

That being said, things aren't as clear cut in terms of the quality of time travel used in these games. These games use the two most common types of time travel in entertainment; closed loops and branching paths. Assuming VIII's closed loop is actually fully closed, and their actions end up at the predetermined outcome, then that's honestly a job well done on that front. That's far better than presenting a closed loop and then breaking that rule.

Now, branching path time travel is much more common, and frankly much easier to screw up as well. I don't know how Chrono Trigger presents it's time travel, but the most important question is... do these time periods they go to run in parallel? If there is any point where they change a future by going to the past, then they have failed. The only way for branching path time travel to really work is if it works using the multiverse; endless amounts of universes that represent every possible outcome for every moment in time. That means in order to work, any change they make isn't actually change at all. It is instead the predetermined set of events for that single universe. Why? Because making change within these concepts of time is impossible, and always has to revert to the closed loops type of time travel. Changing something in the past negates need for that change, creating a paradox. Like, if you went back in time to save someone's life, they would no longer need saved, so you would no longer go back to save them, meaning they would once again need saved, etc. Closed loop.

The only way out of this (that is used by most entertainment) is to say that this is just one of an infinite number of like-universes that all diverge at an infinite number of points. But again, that dictates that changes made aren't actually changes made; you're simply in the specific universe where those events happen as they happen. So in that way, it's impossible through such a time travel theory to change the present in Chrono Trigger by effecting the past. The original future still exists in the universe you came from.

That's a super long-winded way of saying that -unless Chrono Trigger admits that your actions change nothing, just like in a closed time loop- it actually fails at presenting proper time travel.
 
The only way out of this (that is used by most entertainment) is to say that this is just one of an infinite number of like-universes that all diverge at an infinite number of points. But again, that dictates that changes made aren't actually changes made; you're simply in the specific universe where those events happen as they happen. So in that way, it's impossible through such a time travel theory to change the present in Chrono Trigger by effecting the past. The original future still exists in the universe you came from.

That's a super long-winded way of saying that -unless Chrono Trigger admits that your actions change nothing, just like in a closed time loop- it actually fails at presenting proper time travel.

Basically for Chrono Trigger you can get multiple endings based on when you fight the last boss and so on (have to beat the game first to get multiple endings) with that being said, they have side quests that can add or change some things too so I guess it would be multiple possible futures.

The thing for me though is that if a game is doing a "time travel" thing I want to feel like the actions matter, and in FFVIII, after you beat it, you realize your actions didn't do a thing and that everything is basically on a loop, and that is one major problem for me with this game, nothing changes and everything is at it was going be from the start basically. This I can get past though in some ways, the real issue is when they added the "amnesia" effect to it. That is when the story really took a bad nose dive for me. It got to a point where they tried to tie things together and basically this was a bad plot point that just makes the game more confusing and doesn't really add anything except for make you pretend to care about Edea now...which even after all that I still didn't really care for her.

I think trying to combine both Amnesia and time travel to this game really kills the story to a point where once I get to that point what was a relatively ok fun game turns to a very bad plot point game for RPGs I think story is what can make and break a game and for FFVIII that was the breaking point of it.
 
The time travel aspect didn't bother me, regardless if it was the future or past. The whole GF memory loss and connecting that with parents caring isn't that relevant with the playable cast. Most of the playable characters are orphans for one thing. Second, it's the price they were willing to pay for power...and Squall is a vocal example of that.
 
Basically for Chrono Trigger you can get multiple endings based on when you fight the last boss and so on (have to beat the game first to get multiple endings) with that being said, they have side quests that can add or change some things too so I guess it would be multiple possible futures.

The thing for me though is that if a game is doing a "time travel" thing I want to feel like the actions matter, and in FFVIII, after you beat it, you realize your actions didn't do a thing and that everything is basically on a loop, and that is one major problem for me with this game, nothing changes and everything is at it was going be from the start basically. This I can get past though in some ways, the real issue is when they added the "amnesia" effect to it. That is when the story really took a bad nose dive for me. It got to a point where they tried to tie things together and basically this was a bad plot point that just makes the game more confusing and doesn't really add anything except for make you pretend to care about Edea now...which even after all that I still didn't really care for her.

I think trying to combine both Amnesia and time travel to this game really kills the story to a point where once I get to that point what was a relatively ok fun game turns to a very bad plot point game for RPGs I think story is what can make and break a game and for FFVIII that was the breaking point of it.

I would personally take it a step further, and say that VIII went off the rails right at the start of disc 2. Things start becoming strange and illogical really quickly. The amnesia thing is far from the most ludicrous thing that happens, though it's still really silly. But -assuming the time travel is actually a successful closed loop- (I have never paid enough attention to it) it at least functions properly. Without bringing up the inability to change the future as a key plot point, it's kind of a boring outcome I suppose. But at least it works. Time travel is considered the #1 thing to avoid in storytelling for a reason; it's super easy to create illogical/impossible outcomes by accidentally breaking your own rules.
 
The thing for me though is that if a game is doing a "time travel" thing I want to feel like the actions matter, and in FFVIII, after you beat it, you realize your actions didn't do a thing and that everything is basically on a loop, and that is one major problem for me with this game, nothing changes and everything is at it was going be from the start basically. This I can get past though in some ways, the real issue is when they added the "amnesia" effect to it. That is when the story really took a bad nose dive for me. It got to a point where they tried to tie things together and basically this was a bad plot point that just makes the game more confusing and doesn't really add anything except for make you pretend to care about Edea now...which even after all that I still didn't really care for her.
 
Imagine FFVIII being remade with a similar choice and consequence system as Witcher 3. :hmmm: The potential for more impactful "time travel" influencing would blow the game wide open.

Also, I agree with the whole memory loss thing being a terrible plot point. To me, it kinda felt tacked on quite late in the game's development and didn't really add anything to the story other than a shock twist that still fell kinda flat.
 
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