Completed both Final Fantasy XIII and XIII-2 and here is what I have to say

Phosphoric Ooze

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I completed both games in 2015. Having struggled with XIII one even though I got all the way to chapter 11. That was without using a walkthrough. This time I used a walkthrough and therefore completed the game. Then I moved onto the sequel and after completing XIII-2 here is what I have to say.

Why XIII-2? Why was there any need to create a sequel? I say this because having played both games, XIII-2 looks like a different game compared to XIII. If you take out some of the music and places that where from XIII it looks like a completely different game. The main reason on why i'm saying this is because of the difference in graphics. XIII has much better graphics and XIII-2 graphics are not as good and seem watered down. XIII-2 nearly had the same graphics when fighting Faeryl and the final boss but that was it.

In my opinion this damaged the franchise because you have to look at the magnitude of XIII. It is a big game and for you to create another game of the same world the sequel needs to be at the same level. For example, having the same graphics and the same level of detail. This is what XIII-2 lacked compared to the first one. Now you can see they spent much more time on XIII compared to XIII-2 and that's why the first one has better graphics and level of detail. I say to that, why even bother creating a sequel then.


Don't get me wrong, XIII-2 is a really good game. The best thing about the game is Caius Ballad. I wouldn't say it's better than the first one. In my opinion, XIII is a much better game. But, when creating a sequel it should be at the same level or even higher because of better graphics over time, don't you think?
 
While I can appreciate SE for trying something new, this game and this franchise was an absolute fail for me. I never even finished LR. I got maybe, MAYBE halfway through the game before I traded it in.

 
Why XIII-2? Why was there any need to create a sequel?

A multitude of reasons:

1) The company would be about to make the decision to draft in multiple teams and pull a lot of personnel from ongoing and planned projects at the time to build A Realm Reborn from the ground up. On top of that were the existing and concurrent proprietary engine issues and the fact that Versus XIII as known at the time was still in its infancy of development. As a result, Square would have barely had anything to release from its Japanese side, so sequels to FFXIII would have to essentially fill in the gaps.

2) To be able to reuse a lot of assets from FFXIII as well as unused ones from the cutting room floor (Proto Fal'Cie Adam was originally an optional Fal'Cie boss named Nemesis in a cut extra dungeon for FFXIII, so I recall. Seventh Ark, I think?) would be very efficient, cheaper and faster to make than a whole game from scratch.

3) They had it in their mind that since FFXIII sold incredibly well, that the same would occur with the sequel. They likely did not properly take into account FFXIII's mixed reception in mind when they greenlit a direct sequel. Of course, we now know that the numbers dipped exponentially with each subsequent sequel, which has very likely sunk that idea that they can rely on a string of direct sequels as an effective clutch.

XIII has much better graphics and XIII-2 graphics are not as good and seem watered down.

As expected. The former has had a much larger budget to work with and so much more time and manpower. Just consider the fact that they hadn't even finalised the gameplay aspect of FFXIII by the time the art assets were essentially ready to go. Before the demo that came with the Blu-Ray release of Advent Children in Japan, one artist purportedly claimed that they were polishing in-game rocks for 3 months. FFXIII-2 did not have that same luxury, and Lightning Returns looks even rougher around the edges.

In my opinion, XIII is a much better game. But, when creating a sequel it should be at the same level or even higher because of better graphics over time, don't you think

This is generally something that is considered gospel for so many other franchises, but Final Fantasy is a special case. Yes, you would certainly expect the next Halo game to blow its predecessors out of the water in areas such as refined gunplay, graphics and technical prowess, but Final Fantasy does not work the same way. Its equivalent of a Halo 5 would be Final Fantasy XV, i.e. the next mainline entry.

Final Fantasy direct sequels were never going to be afforded the same budget and attention as the next mainline installment, thus you get a situation where FFXIII-2 and Lightning Returns both look conspicuously rougher (and less polished, in LR's case) than FFXIII itself. The realities of Square's developmental and management quagmire at the time certainly would not have let the two sequels take any longer in the oven than they needed to.
 
A multitude of reasons:

1) The company would be about to make the decision to draft in multiple teams and pull a lot of personnel from ongoing and planned projects at the time to build A Realm Reborn from the ground up. On top of that were the existing and concurrent proprietary engine issues and the fact that Versus XIII as known at the time was still in its infancy of development. As a result, Square would have barely had anything to release from its Japanese side, so sequels to FFXIII would have to essentially fill in the gaps.

2) To be able to reuse a lot of assets from FFXIII as well as unused ones from the cutting room floor (Proto Fal'Cie Adam was originally an optional Fal'Cie boss named Nemesis in a cut extra dungeon for FFXIII, so I recall. Seventh Ark, I think?) would be very efficient, cheaper and faster to make than a whole game from scratch.

3) They had it in their mind that since FFXIII sold incredibly well, that the same would occur with the sequel. They likely did not properly take into account FFXIII's mixed reception in mind when they greenlit a direct sequel. Of course, we now know that the numbers dipped exponentially with each subsequent sequel, which has very likely sunk that idea that they can rely on a string of direct sequels as an effective clutch.



As expected. The former has had a much larger budget to work with and so much more time and manpower. Just consider the fact that they hadn't even finalised the gameplay aspect of FFXIII by the time the art assets were essentially ready to go. Before the demo that came with the Blu-Ray release of Advent Children in Japan, one artist purportedly claimed that they were polishing in-game rocks for 3 months. FFXIII-2 did not have that same luxury, and Lightning Returns looks even rougher around the edges.



This is generally something that is considered gospel for so many other franchises, but Final Fantasy is a special case. Yes, you would certainly expect the next Halo game to blow its predecessors out of the water in areas such as refined gunplay, graphics and technical prowess, but Final Fantasy does not work the same way. Its equivalent of a Halo 5 would be Final Fantasy XV, i.e. the next mainline entry.

Final Fantasy direct sequels were never going to be afforded the same budget and attention as the next mainline installment, thus you get a situation where FFXIII-2 and Lightning Returns both look conspicuously rougher (and less polished, in LR's case) than FFXIII itself. The realities of Square's developmental and management quagmire at the time certainly would not have let the two sequels take any longer in the oven than they needed to.

The budget has got nothing to do with it. The fact of the matter is they didn't want to put as much time and effort into XIII-2 compared to XIII. Plain and simple. The sequel is not going to be at the same level of quality compared to the original. Why bother creating a sequel in the first place then?
 
Why bother creating a sequel in the first place then?

Same reason as why X-2 was made: to give the fans some more of the world they liked so much.. Graphics don't matter when it comes to making a sequel. The environment, plot and characters do. Hell, look at the sequel to FF12 on DS: better than the main game with 20 times worse graphics.
 
The budget has got nothing to do with it. The fact of the matter is they didn't want to put as much time and effort into XIII-2 compared to XIII. Plain and simple. The sequel is not going to be at the same level of quality compared to the original. Why bother creating a sequel in the first place then?

Well, actually the budget is pretty much the only thing that matters in order to put "time and effort" to a game. Square works on more than one title at a time, and therefore they need budget to translate it into manpower, time of development, etc.

As for why bothering creating a sequel. Well, maybe XIII-2 is not better on the graphic aspect, but I believe everyone will agree it is better in the gameplay aspect. It is simply more fun to play than the first one, and for a lot of people this alone suffices to label the game as superior to the previous. I'm among these people. Moreover, FFXIII-2 story is pretty interesting, it really works a lot further on the story of the first. Also, apart from Lightning, Yeul is probably my favorite character of the XIII saga, so I thank SE for making the 2nd title :)


Imo, XIII is too linear, especially for a final fantasy, which is a huge turn down. XIII-2 is the best of the three, the only drawback I see to it, is that there's only two playable characters, although I must admit this was intelligently implemented. LR is another story. I think you would have a better argument if this thread were about LR. Most people agree that LR is the worst title of the three, did a poor job implementing the time limit, not really expands the story or characters in a satisfactory way, poor level and character design, poor "open world" concept, etc.
 
The budget has got nothing to do with it. The fact of the matter is they didn't want to put as much time and effort into XIII-2 compared to XIII. Plain and simple. The sequel is not going to be at the same level of quality compared to the original. Why bother creating a sequel in the first place then?

I am rather amazed that my post has somehow gone over your head, given that it basically answers your questions.

And what Sunowo said. Budget has virtually everything to do with it. The approved budget by the execs plays a critical role in determining how much they can put into the development of the game, as well as the available time frame given a release schedule forecast in mind. They were making a direct sequel and not a mainline game, so it's understandable that they weren't going to throw in a FFXIII-sized budget at it. They needed something to release from the Japanese side and they were saddled with all the problems I have detailed in my post. So FFXIII-2 was conceived to be a relatively lower budget release that would be able to reuse assets/use unused assets AND ultimately recoup considerable costs.

But yes, you're not wrong that they weren't willing to put as much time and effort into it as they did for FFXIII. But the company dug themselves into a hole, and quick sequel churning was deemed an adequate solution at the time to help cover costs for other things, get money in, and to fill an otherwise barren release schedule. The execs greenlit FFXIII-2, because business. There was likely little to no obligation to craft a product that would somehow surpass FFXIII, because that was not a primary concern, given the turmoil facing the company at the time. Without the sequels, Square Enix Japan would have only had err...FFXIV 2.0 and Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance in those 4 years or so?
 
Same reason as why X-2 was made: to give the fans some more of the world they liked so much.. Graphics don't matter when it comes to making a sequel. The environment, plot and characters do. Hell, look at the sequel to FF12 on DS: better than the main game with 20 times worse graphics.

Not the same reason because I'm sure that Final Fantasy sequel has the exact same graphics as the first one. Graphics do matter when it comes to making a sequel. FFXIII-2 dosen't look like it's part of FFXIII because of the drop in graphics and the level of detail. Yeah, the environment. FFXIII-2's environment is way below FFXIII's environment in level of detail. Just look at the cliffs in Gran Pulse. The level of detail is phenomenal. They must of spent ages doing the rocky cliffs.



Well, actually the budget is pretty much the only thing that matters in order to put "time and effort" to a game. Square works on more than one title at a time, and therefore they need budget to translate it into manpower, time of development, etc.

As for why bothering creating a sequel. Well, maybe XIII-2 is not better on the graphic aspect, but I believe everyone will agree it is better in the gameplay aspect. It is simply more fun to play than the first one, and for a lot of people this alone suffices to label the game as superior to the previous. I'm among these people. Moreover, FFXIII-2 story is pretty interesting, it really works a lot further on the story of the first. Also, apart from Lightning, Yeul is probably my favorite character of the XIII saga, so I thank SE for making the 2nd title


Imo, XIII is too linear, especially for a final fantasy, which is a huge turn down. XIII-2 is the best of the three, the only drawback I see to it, is that there's only two playable characters, although I must admit this was intelligently implemented. LR is another story. I think you would have a better argument if this thread were about LR. Most people agree that LR is the worst title of the three, did a poor job implementing the time limit, not really expands the story or characters in a satisfactory way, poor level and character design, poor "open world" concept, etc.


They should of had a big budget after selling 6 million copies of FFXIII. I think I know what happened. They spent all their budget for Final Fantasy Versus XIII/XV and only a small budget for FFXIII-2.

I agree that FXIII-2 has better gameplay and is much faster than FFXIII's gameplay. I wouldn't say it's more fun to play because you encounter enemies every second. The first one is much more fun to play because you can stroll and not face enemies every second. FFXIII-2 story is not good in my opinion. Other than the history of Noel and Caius, the story was bad. FFXIII story was good because it ran like a movie.

If they didn't make FFXIII linear you would easily get lost in the game. Just look at Gran Pulse for instance. The place is massive and if they made places as big as that in every chapter the world would eat you up. Why do you there's a car in FFXV? Saying Final Fantasy XIII should be linear is like not having the car in FFXV.



I am rather amazed that my post has somehow gone over your head, given that it basically answers your questions.

And what Sunowo said. Budget has virtually everything to do with it. The approved budget by the execs plays a critical role in determining how much they can put into the development of the game, as well as the available time frame given a release schedule forecast in mind. They were making a direct sequel and not a mainline game, so it's understandable that they weren't going to throw in a FFXIII-sized budget at it. They needed something to release from the Japanese side and they were saddled with all the problems I have detailed in my post. So FFXIII-2 was conceived to be a relatively lower budget release that would be able to reuse assets/use unused assets AND ultimately recoup considerable costs.

But yes, you're not wrong that they weren't willing to put as much time and effort into it as they did for FFXIII. But the company dug themselves into a hole, and quick sequel churning was deemed an adequate solution at the time to help cover costs for other things, get money in, and to fill an otherwise barren release schedule. The execs greenlit FFXIII-2, because business. There was likely little to no obligation to craft a product that would somehow surpass FFXIII, because that was not a primary concern, given the turmoil facing the company at the time. Without the sequels, Square Enix Japan would have only had err...FFXIV 2.0 and Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance in those 4 years or so?

FFXIII sold 6 million copies worldwide. They gained a massive budget but instead they used most of the budget if not all of it for FFXV. Therefore they used a much smaller budget for FFXIII-2. So mainline game has nothing to do with it. Also, look at x-2? Same budget as the first one? They were working on both FFXIII and versus/xv at the time. I leave that for you to think about.
 
Not the same reason because I'm sure that Final Fantasy sequel has the exact same graphics as the first one. Graphics do matter when it comes to making a sequel. FFXIII-2 dosen't look like it's part of FFXIII because of the drop in graphics and the level of detail. Yeah, the environment. FFXIII-2's environment is way below FFXIII's environment in level of detail. Just look at the cliffs in Gran Pulse. The level of detail is phenomenal. They must of spent ages doing the rocky cliffs.

FF12: RW certainly didn't have the same level of graphics as 12, but it was still the better game of the two, due to the gameplay being more bearable. The gameplay being what's most important in games.

13-2 does look like it's part of the 13 series. Same art style and a lot of the same environments (with some that are much less bland). Most of 13 had no thought go into the playable environments. Most of the areas were just a colour slapped on a corridor :p.
 

They should of had a big budget after selling 6 million copies of FFXIII. I think I know what happened. They spent all their budget for Final Fantasy Versus XIII/XV and only a small budget for FFXIII-2.

I agree that FXIII-2 has better gameplay and is much faster than FFXIII's gameplay. I wouldn't say it's more fun to play because you encounter enemies every second. The first one is much more fun to play because you can stroll and not face enemies every second. FFXIII-2 story is not good in my opinion. Other than the history of Noel and Caius, the story was bad. FFXIII story was good because it ran like a movie.


Well you admit it has better gameplay. To most people, better gameplay means "more fun playing it". And for a lot of people, a funnier game is a better game, since games are, mainly, to entertain people.

As for the story, I agree FFXIII story ran like a movie, but this doesn't make it better, just easier to digest, which is something I actually do not like about stories. The books and games I liked the most in my life, were those that I finished them the first time saying "I just don't know what I have just read..." and so I was forced to read/play a second time :p However I'm not saying FFXIII story was bad, since FF stories are always over average for game standards. Just think it was worse than XIII-2.

If they didn't make FFXIII linear you would easily get lost in the game. Just look at Gran Pulse for instance. The place is massive and if they made places as big as that in every chapter the world would eat you up. Why do you there's a car in FFXV? Saying Final Fantasy XIII should be linear is like not having the car in FFXV.

FFXIII is the most linear final fantasy to date. There are a lot of examples of games with a huge world in which you do not get lost, ie, FF Lightning Returns. FFXIII-2 is also much less linear than XIII and still you don't need a car. Plus getting lost in a game is not actually bad. Isn't "getting lost" the best part of Skyrim to begin with?
 
Not the same reason because I'm sure that Final Fantasy sequel has the exact same graphics as the first one. Graphics do matter when it comes to making a sequel. FFXIII-2 dosen't look like it's part of FFXIII because of the drop in graphics and the level of detail. Yeah, the environment. FFXIII-2's environment is way below FFXIII's environment in level of detail. Just look at the cliffs in Gran Pulse. The level of detail is phenomenal. They must of spent ages doing the rocky cliffs.

Really? There's a good number of reused assets repurposed for the sequel, ranging from the enemy encounters to NPCs. New Bodhum shares a distinct visual style very reminiscent of Bodhum (which is kind of the point, I concede). Heck, FFXIII-2 still adheres to the same art style as FFXIII and it utilises the same development engine, so it's quite unmistakably part of the same universe. I'm not sure why a cliff having worse textures in one game compared to the other defies that observation.

They should of had a big budget after selling 6 million copies of FFXIII. I think I know what happened. They spent all their budget for Final Fantasy Versus XIII/XV and only a small budget for FFXIII-2.

Right. They were pouring exorbitant investment into concurrently developing the Luminous Engine with the bare skeletons of what would soon become FFXV. They were also pouring so much money into rebooting FFXIV ASAP.

I emphasise that FFXIII-2 was greenlit to be a cheaper, quicker profit, because that's exactly what the reality of the situation seemed to be demanding. Reuse assets, recoup costs, cheapen the development process, put in a lower budget, and come out with a quick, healthy profit margin at the end of it. Plus you will have a console RPG to release. It's a cynical thought: that FFXIII-2 and LR were simply meant to be quick cash grabs, but that's precisely what they were for.

(Might I add, they were also tweaking the Crystal Tools engine on top of that to make it possible to run FFXIII-2's somewhat larger maps, so that would have eaten up a good chunk of the assigned budget as well.)

But your notion of how much budget and effort a sequel SHOULD have is rather tangential to what the execs at the time had to decide, to start getting their house in order. That is why the 2011-2014 period seemed to be such a mad rush for quick money, otherwise all their other troubled and stalled projects would have eaten their coffers up.

To be pedantic, though I'm not 100% sure whether you meant this in your post or not, there is no uniform budget that is divided up between projects. That's not how it works. Specific budgets have to be accorded to each and every project. FFXIII-2 wasn't desperately fighting for scraps or anything. Different project teams weren't duking it out for a large piece of the pie. They consciously assigned FFXIII-2 the smaller budget it got, so it wasn't a case of "oh dear, we wanted to give you a full budget, but we're out at the moment".

Also, look at x-2? Same budget as the first one?

Citation, please.

Also, FFX-2 had a considerably smaller team than what FFX had, so logically speaking, the budget would have been smaller. The fact that FFX-2 is graphically similar to its predecessor is because it reuses so many more assets from FFX than FFXIII-2 has done from FFXIII.

You overlook also the fact that HD development is an entirely different playing field compared to the technology the teams had to work with for their PS2 titles. After all, making that leap from SD to HD development was never something Square excelled at when the jump had to be made from PS2 to PS3.
 
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