Why does everybody have to bash XIII???

Before I get to the heart of my views on FFXIII, I would like to take a moment to first make note of the dissemination of information found within the XIII "trilogy" (my use of quotations will be explained later). Before the initial release of FFXIII, Square Enix released Episode Zero--a collection of short stories that detailed the game's prologue and established the characterization of all major players. This prologue was absent from the game's release in all countries but Japan, yet it contains crucial information regarding the histories and relationships that are necessary to understand before jumping into the main story. The decision to omit this prologue from the physical game--let alone from the consumers outside of Japan--is one of the key reasons why FFXIII, along with its sequels, rests on a shaky foundation. This same action was taken regarding the prologue to FFXIII-2, and I can only hypothesize that the pattern will repeat come time for XIII-3's release.

Having said that, I wish now to detail my views on the physical game. I will base my conclusions on two key points: plot progression and gameplay mechanics. Plot progression concerns characterization and the storyline, while gameplay mechanics encompasses the battle system and world exploration.

The plot of FFXIII is convoluted. This statement is given credence by the fact that the prologue was omitted from the physical game. As a gamer outside of Japan and removed from fan translations on the internet, you will never be privy to crucial knowledge that gives you insight into the pysches of the characters you are journeying with. From the very start of the game, there is a barrier between you and your party that will never be removed no matter how hard you analyze the in-game information.

Here is an example to illustrate my point:

Lightning Farron. Why does she hate Snow?

Serah Farron. Why does she love Snow?

Take a moment now to see if you can answer these questions thoroughly before you read my in-depth analysis.

....

As a first-time gamer outside the reach of the true Prologue, you will automatically assume that Lightning abhors Snow because he's come to take away her baby sister--because he's going to marry her and split up the Farron family. You'd be partially right--only partially. Your understanding of Lightning and Snow ends there with no hope of ever knowing the truth and therefore no hope of ever truly appreciating the person Lightning is.

Lightning Farron lost both her parents before she turned 16. She went from being mommy and daddy's spoiled little girl to being a hardened police officer all before she turned 20. Lightning grew up too fast; she had to for Serah's sake. When Lightning was a little girl, she was very close to her father. She loved him dearly and spent as much time with him as possible. But something terrible happened, something that would shake her faith in many people. Lightning's father was foolhardy, a big talker, and had a knack for heroics (sound like anyone you know?), and one day, under circumstances never fully explored by Square, Mr. Farron died. It is insinuated that he was trying to do something heroic when his plans backfired, killing him.

Lightning would never get over the trauma of losing her most beloved parent. I know people love to compare her to Cloud, but in this respect, Lightning is very similar to Squall and Ellone's disappearance. She took all her pain, fears, worries, doubts and locked them away deep within her hardening heart. Lightning felt betrayed and abandoned by her father, and it is only in FFXIII that she's finally able to make peace with his death.

If you haven't figured it out yet, Snow is the spitting image of Lightning's father. Lightning first met Snow while doing a routine perimeter patrol on the coast. She was fighting off against some monsters when Snow and Team NORA showed up to steal the show. Snow's bravado and daredevil-esque behavior immediately forced all of Lightning's suppressed memories of her father to resurface, and it was right then and there that Lightning grew to abhor Snow. Note that this is well before she learned about the man's relationship to her sister.

This same resemblance between Snow and Mr. Farron now changes the relationship between Serah and Snow. Now it is possible for you to infer why Serah is attracted to Snow. It is akin to the Electra complex, whereby a girl is attracted to men who remind her of her father. If you ever wondered why Serah and Snow hook up, it all dials back to Mr. Farron and the impression he left upon his youngest daughter. This is also why Serah explores the ruins that eventually lead to her getting the brand: because her father used to take her exploring similar ruins!

Mr. Farron is never reference in the core game. You never learn what happened to him or to his wife, who died just a few years later from a terminal disease.

Lightning, Snow, and Serah--all tied together because of a man you never learn about in the physical game. This is just one example of why the FFXIII story is poorly explored.

The actual core story (the one in the game) is convoluted because it is contradictory. Dysley is a confusing antagonist who wants to train you, but simultaneously wants to kill you. Ignoring the fact that the character pool is slim (there aren't nearly as many minor characters and incidental characters as in other FFs), the fact that Dysley is with you every step of the way always begs the question: why is this man trying to train you to kill Orphan when he tries so hard in the end to defend Orphan? The fact that the whole socio-political structure of Cocoon isn't well explored or explained leaves much to be asked and speculated about the relationship between your party, Dysley, Orphan, and all the other fal'Cie. Indeed, we have some sort of quasi-modernized capitalistic society that subscribes to worshiping these god-like entities, but aside from how our party feels about that arrangement, we get very little direct feedback from the world. Whether this is an intentional side-effect of a dystopia or a huge oversight is uncertain.

In sum, due to the omission of so many crucial details regarding history, society, and characterization, FFXIII's plot is very weak compared to its predecessor's.

When taken in conjunction with FFXIII-2, the plot suffers even more. Lightning's character does a complete 180. The woman who used to say: "I control my fate!" and was willing to topple an entire fal'Cie-run regime now devotes her life to serving one of those same fal'Cie. That plot in itself requires in-depth analysis, but considering we are only focusing on XIII in this thread, I'll stop short. Suffice to say this is no true trilogy as the characterization is retconned in mid-stream with no ample explanation (not that this "trilogy" finds giving explanations to be an important practice in the first place). Subsequent XIII games are reinterpretations at best, and sad attempts by SE to stave off releasing another core FF on the current generation consoles at worst. Considering how long it took to produce XIII and the fact that most of the renders, music, and stories are already completed for SE, it's easier and cheaper for them to squeeze XIII to the fullest for now and turn to XV later for the next gen.

I wish to compare XIII's plot to the plot of another Final Fantasy, namely X. In FFX, you're never hurting for information. By the time you finish the game, all of your questions have been sufficiently answered, and provided you've talked to many people and have completed side quests, you'll have learned the full backgrounds of all the main characters as well as many minor characters (even the ones you have never met). There was no supplementation that served as a crucial databank of biographical data that was released separately and limited to only one group of people. You don't need the Ultimania book in order to be satisfied with the characterization of the FFX characters or to fully grasp the situation in Spira. In FFXIII, you're in dire need of supplements that your datalogs don't even begin to scratch the surface of.

Now let me shift focus onto the actual gameplay mechanics. The most common criticism of FFXIII is its linearity. It is no secret that Final Fantasies tend to be on the linear side. However, a good game can well mask its linearity when handled correctly. Case in point: FFX. There is little to no open-world exploration in FFX. The best you can do is backtrack before you get the airship in order to meet people and have conversations that you'll miss later on as the plot progresses. The Calm Lands, though large, aren't nearly sufficient enough for the avid adventurer's exploration. And yet, FFX has something FFXIII severely lacks: people.

There are people in Spira; a lot of them. The people give the world depth. You can talk to all sorts of people: locals, monks, warriors, guado, ronso, Al Bhed, athletes, priests, children, the elderly--the list goes on. And not only can you talk to them, but you can see where and how they live; you can experience it for yourself. Traversing FFX isn't much different from walking the straight lines of FFXIII, but the former varies drastically from the latter in that it creates depth by depending on its setting and characters. You have few NPCs in FFXIII, and the ones that you can speak to offer very little information as to who they are and how they feel about their world outside of generic dialog. Where are the O'akas, Shelindas, and Belgamines of FFXIII? How about the Card Queens, Zones, and Xus? Or the Johnnys, Dios, and Chocobo Hermits? In FFXIII, you can't help but feel detached from the gameplay because the story isn't charging in to fill the void. You always feel isolated, alone, and lost.

Aside from the linearity, the actual battle mechanics are okay, but can be better. The largest complaint I have personally is that when the party leader dies, it should not doom the rest of the party to failure. Obviously if Snow's down for the count but Lightning still has 98% of her HP left, there's no way in any realistic scenario that Lightning would hold up a white flag. This was fixed in FFXIII-2, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a nuisance in XIII. Aside from that, I find the Paradigm system to be a nice departure from the traditional ATB. It inspires quick thinking and strategy that is reliant on each individual opponent.

The money and equipment systems are seriously flawed. Money is too sparse and equipment is too overpriced. It's a grueling process to level up equipment and the system discourages trial & error because of the sheer difficulty of accumulating the means by which to afford such risky ventures.

These are the criticisms that I have regarding FFXIII. To summarize: the characterization is severely lacking in-game because of Square's foolish decision to create separate and exclusive supplementation for its prologue. The game is linear like most other FFs, but unlike its predecessors, it does a poor job disguising its linearity because its story and world are too shallow. The gameplay is okay, but accumulating funds and equipment is a terrible chore and burden. In all, I deem FFXIII a poor addition to the Final Fantasy family.
 
^ Knowing the past before jumping into Xiii's sotry does not even remotely matter since the story is all about wandering until they figure something out, and that is all it was, making an y sub-plots practically pointless. One data entry even admits that Sazh and Vanille where just running in circles.
 
Because it's not a Final Fantasy game, it's a game inspired by Final Fantasy that just so happened to get licensing to include known monsters.

It's gameplay, story, and overall feel are dissimilar to other FF games. The only thing making it a F game is its thematic tie-ins.

It's a fun game, I personally enjoyed it, but I hesitate to call it a Final Fantasy game.
 
"Why does everyone bash this game?"

A good question, since 13 wasn't horrible in any way, and though it did have some major flaws, I did not believe any of them made the game unplayable or interfered with the enjoyment in any way. Like all FF games, some level grinding is required and that is always a chore, but it isn't necessary if you do not intend to fight all the extra bosses.

I greatly enjoyed the Crystarium, myself. Recall the older FF games, where you had a glut of stats but not a speck of information as to what each one did. How does Spirit and Magic differ? Does dexterity boost your armor or does it help with stealing? The early FF games, you were given no information on what the stats actually meant, and only looking online or trial-and-error could yield information.

However, with the Crystarium, everything is boiled down to the three necessary stats of Strength, Magic, and Health. Simple. It was a beautiful and streamlined way of building characters, not unlike Skyrim's constellations or Fable's method either. Visually and practically appealing, I do not see why there are so many complaints about it.

One of the major flaws was, yes, the linearity -- a little come-down from the enormity and running around of 12 would be a relief, but this was a very constricting game. Not to mention you're constantly scrabbling for money. The combat system was good though, and I liked it, but like others have said, having the party leader die dooming the entire game is the worst decision ever made.

My only real issue with this game, though, is that this should truly be titled "Final Fantasy: The Movie". There were so many cutscenes where characters did nothing but spill their souls to each other that it was saccharine. It was actually frustrating because characters would be on the verge of action then.... do nothing and sob about their problems instead. Only when I reached the end of the game did I realize WHY this was so -- the whole theme of the game is, in a word, 'hope', and that the entire point of these scenes was the characters fighting off despair; for the moment they give into despair, they lose their lives. However, this wasn't done as well as it could be in the game, and it suffered for it. As Mr. Revolution said, the story is poorly explained and makes the game feel shallow when in reality it is anything but. It could have benefited from a story editing before they made the game, that's for certain.

Even so, I find the characters enjoyable and interesting as always, the combat system was fun and a pleasant challenge to use, and the game is gorgeous, no question. The stunning characterization and visuals that typify Final Fantasy are certainly not found wanting in this game. It merely gets a bad rap because it has so many precious favorites to contend with in follower's hearts.
 
I'm never going to consider XIII my favourite game - or even in the top tier- but, I can appreciate what they were attempting to do. Yes, the story isn't quite that refined... but, I do like some of the characters. Many of the party members are among some of my "more liked" characters (Sazh, Vanille, and -taking into account that he's a child- Hope) in FF series.

The lack of an apparent "non-linear" approach(I don't believe any FF title gives you true free roam) can be explained by the "on the run" aspect of the storyline, but the Pulse section could've been done better.

Like some many have mentioned, the Graphical side of XIII is top notch. It's quite pretty, and the cut-scenes are very astonishing ( the race track scene is eye candy to me).

The battle system is... Meh. I don't like the game handling situations for me. But again, I did like the much more tactical side of the paradigm system... To a degree. Still wouldn't consider it in my top choice of a system.


...Basically, I can see WHERE they were trying to aim with XIII, but the way in which these ideas were carried out was sub-par in my opinion.


I do believe that it wouldn't be as generally hated if it wasn't a member of this series...


Anyway, they're just my two cents.
 
Can someone explain how tactical gameplay is? The monsters didnt vary in weaknesses so i cant see any tactical aspect of the gameplay.
 
I meant tactical in the sense that You can switch Paradigm's at any time- You switch to a team of all Sentinels when taking an attack since they have boosted defense, when you stagger an opponent(With a team of Ravagers) you switch to commando based team, since they do more damage.


To me, that's tactical gameplay.
 
I meant tactical in the sense that You can switch Paradigm's at any time- You switch to a team of all Sentinels when taking an attack since they have boosted defense, when you stagger an opponent(With a team of Ravagers) you switch to commando based team, since they do more damage.


To me, that's tactical gameplay.
but tactical implies using tactics. Sure it had the potential to be tactical but its not. Its strategic if anything else but even then you only need one strategy.
 
My personal understanding(from schooling) of those two words are:

"You have a strategy. You use tactics to achieve the objectives of that strategy. "

Strategy means 'a global plan to reach a long-term goal,' and is taken from a Greek word that means "army leadership".

Tactics, on the other hand, means a short term plan or behavior and comes from a Greek word that means "science of arrangement" (of an army). One uses tactics (little tricks) in a strategy (long-term plan).

(Quoted from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_strategy_and_tactics)


So, if anything, the game is tactical in this sense. Little tricks being the paradigm shifts, the strategy(Which, like you said, there is only one) is to kill the enemy.

I do see your point though, it doesn't achieve what it aims for- it doesn't even come close.
 
My personal understanding(from schooling) of those two words are:

"You have a strategy. You use tactics to achieve the objectives of that strategy. "

Strategy means 'a global plan to reach a long-term goal,' and is taken from a Greek word that means "army leadership".

Tactics, on the other hand, means a short term plan or behavior and comes from a Greek word that means "science of arrangement" (of an army). One uses tactics (little tricks) in a strategy (long-term plan).

(Quoted from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_strategy_and_tactics)


So, if anything, the game is tactical in this sense. Little tricks being the paradigm shifts, the strategy(Which, like you said, there is only one) is to kill the enemy.

I do see your point though, it doesn't achieve what it aims for- it doesn't even come close.
The keyword is global plan, not long term goal.
 
The keyword is global plan, not long term goal.



You use the "global plan"(i.e. The main or major plan- kill enemy in this way, using these tactics) to reach a long term goal(kill enemy).


Why bother pointing out a single word that doesn't affect anything.



Look, we could be here arguing this case all night. I won't be replying this again. There's plenty more we can pick out of XIII that's not great. Or more, that's horrid.
 
You use the "global plan"(i.e. The main or major plan- kill enemy in this way, using these tactics) to reach a long term goal(kill enemy). Why bother pointing out a single word that doesn't affect anything.Look, we could be here arguing this case all night. I won't be replying this again. There's plenty more we can pick out of XIII that's not great. Or more, that's horrid.
Because the strategy isnt killing them, thats the goal. The strategy is the plan. In which this game offers. Battle and switch to medic when low on health. Tactics imply specific tasks, so if anything why not call every ff game out there "tactical" because this game doesnt offer quick thinking to use a life saving tactic.~~~~
 
For me the one thing that killed this game for me was the FOREVER HALLWAY.

Thankfully, I played FFXIII-2 to the end(didn't get past chapter 1 in FFXIII) so if I return to XIII, I already have a firm grasp of the paradigm system.
 
Paradigm system is ridiculous. The idea is interesting but doesnt beat previpus atb. Game doesnt offer quick thinking, just quick action. Paradigm shift is only good to switch to medic to heal and to switch when an enormous blow is going to hit ur party. But overall your literally pressing x and R. You do not need any other option. The combat is low on commands and dont offer attacks that would significantly lower health chrono trigger fr example offered a range of techs. Each tech was either magic based. Or attack based. And a huge ammount of monsters varied between magic/physical weakness. But this game doesnt offer that. All monsters die the same. All monsters provide same strategy.
 
It was my first FF, and as such I'm pretty fond of it. I'll agree it's no masterpiece, but I liked the characters (Lightning is probably one of the best FF protagonists we've had in a long time) and there's no denying that visually it was absolutely superb. Sure it's kinda crap, but I quite liked it. Also I absolutely adore the monster designs. Flying stinger flowers of death! Exploding cyber slugs with great big volatile spines and huge mouths! Robo-centaurs! Awesome!

XIII-2 was still a massive improvement though. I'd rank FFXIII-2 as one of the best FF games made in a while, although saying that I haven't played an awful lot of FF games (so far I've played XIII, XIII-2, VII, a little bit of III/VI, and I have XII but it won't work...)
 
It was my first FF, and as such I'm pretty fond of it. I'll agree it's no masterpiece, but I liked the characters (Lightning is probably one of the best FF protagonists we've had in a long time) and there's no denying that visually it was absolutely superb. Sure it's kinda crap, but I quite liked it. Also I absolutely adore the monster designs. Flying stinger flowers of death! Exploding cyber slugs with great big volatile spines and huge mouths! Robo-centaurs! Awesome!

XIII-2 was still a massive improvement though. I'd rank FFXIII-2 as one of the best FF games made in a while, although saying that I haven't played an awful lot of FF games (so far I've played XIII, XIII-2, VII, a little bit of III/VI, and I have XII but it won't work...)

Glad u enjoyed it :). now that being said, go play FFX and 9. i guarantee 13-2 will no longer be your favorite ;). 13-2 is in my top 5 as well, but FFX and 9 r in front of it :)
 
^ Knowing the past before jumping into Xiii's sotry does not even remotely matter since the story is all about wandering until they figure something out, and that is all it was, making an y sub-plots practically pointless. One data entry even admits that Sazh and Vanille where just running in circles.

You're regretfully missing the entire point of my argument. Allow me to explain it a different way:

Final Fantasy XIII is an incomplete game. You, the gamer, are only allowed access to a small portion of its story. Because of the sloppy exposition, the gameplay suffers as it corresponds directly to the plot's progression. My whole argument is not, as you put it: "knowing the past before jumping into XIII's story"--on the contrary, I believe the "prologue" should never have been separate in the first place. The core story was lacking, as the "wandering until the figure something out" is a premise doomed to fail due to poor execution.

FFXIII would have been tremendously better if, like its predecessors, it gave the gamer greater insight into the backgrounds of all these characters by allowing players to explore and witness first-hand the events that led up to the core story. Not only would we have a greater plot with more hours, depth, and gameplay, but it would give the "wandering" more substance as we would have greater insight into who the villains, their goals, and how our heroes fit into the puzzle. You'll feel more for your party and have a greater grasp of the overarching plot.

If you don't agree with me, it's either because you cannot conceptualize what I'm describing or you are overall uninterested in FFXIII's plot to care for a completed game since it doesn't suit your tastes. For the former, I will try to explain differently if need be; for the latter, it's purely a matter of opinion, which you're entitled to.
 
You're regretfully missing the entire point of my argument. Allow me to explain it a different way:

Final Fantasy XIII is an incomplete game. You, the gamer, are only allowed access to a small portion of its story. Because of the sloppy exposition, the gameplay suffers as it corresponds directly to the plot's progression. My whole argument is not, as you put it: "knowing the past before jumping into XIII's story"--on the contrary, I believe the "prologue" should never have been separate in the first place. The core story was lacking, as the "wandering until the figure something out" is a premise doomed to fail due to poor execution.

FFXIII would have been tremendously better if, like its predecessors, it gave the gamer greater insight into the backgrounds of all these characters by allowing players to explore and witness first-hand the events that led up to the core story. Not only would we have a greater plot with more hours, depth, and gameplay, but it would give the "wandering" more substance as we would have greater insight into who the villains, their goals, and how our heroes fit into the puzzle. You'll feel more for your party and have a greater grasp of the overarching plot.

If you don't agree with me, it's either because you cannot conceptualize what I'm describing or you are overall uninterested in FFXIII's plot to care for a completed game since it doesn't suit your tastes. For the former, I will try to explain differently if need be; for the latter, it's purely a matter of opinion, which you're entitled to.
I recently heard that the whole novel didnt even cover that many ground breaking info in the first place. FF13 also didnt really feel like it was missing info in the prologue area, it was the fact that the story was just lacking any real depth.

And thats why these characters been laying it on to thick. Even for the few characters I like such as Hope and Sahz. Especially Vanille. And yes I know the story of Vanille.
Most of time ALL the characters were either over zhealous or overly depressing. None of the characters were realistic. noatter how many ideas they tried to produce.

Even with free roam...the gameplay is still lacking. All key aspects were underplayed by the heavily restraining paradigm shift. The stagger couldve been great if it had more to it. Similar to Vagrant Story having specific areas to hit monsters. And the libra ability couldve been incorporated. And instead of auto fill the monsters weakspots, it will tell us where to hit. Paradigm shift can be customizable.
Instead
 
Last edited:
Final Fantasy XIII was probably one of my favorite final fantasy games. Call me shallow, but I mainly played it for the action. The story really was lackluster and had no depth, I will agree to that, but the fact that it had an active time battle system that made for good action was on spot. I think it either boils down to really two options... If you play final fantasy or rpgs for the story alone.. you will not like Final Fantasy XIII, but if you play for the gameplay, you will enjoy it. And I'm actually one to play rpgs for the gameplay honestly. The story can be okay in nature, but the gameplay has to hook me. It's fun trying to be able to stagger your enemy and juggle them in the air constantly for however long you can and pick commands not only fast, but at the right time. You have to remember that your party members will strike the enemy with the best ravage skills possible unless you Libra the enemy first, coupled with the fact that some commands require timing and that up to the end with Orphan. Orphan really wasn't a picnic. You have to strategize paradigms to fit with being able to stand your ground and whoop the enemy at the same time. Final Fantasy XIII has a lot of gameplay if you look for it. Sure the Paradigm system was linear, but you have to make up for it by grinding enemies too. Not to mention the preemptive strikes : deciptisol, fortisol, aegisol and ethersol gameplay was fun as well. It seems everyone forgot about the environmental gameplay of using sneaking to your advantage to increase stagger preemptive strikes. Seemed like that was mixed in with Metal Gear Solid gameplay. The way I played, I used to always try to find a way to sneak preemptive strikes on hard to sneak enemies like those Gran Pulse wolves and Behemoths. Don't forget the fact that they added Sentinel. Probably a role not used very much for those that just mashed X. Q.Q. There is no way someone on here is going to tell me the fight with Orphan was boring and that they beat the whole game without having a time on their hands. You have to Paradigm Shift ALOT with Orphan in order to kill him. That was the thing. The GAMEPLAY. Everybody seems to hate this game for the story. Okay Lightning doesn't really have a grand backstory *why does she work for the military?*, *what is the reasoning behind being a serious lady all the time*, *who is vanille really and why did she suddenly decrystalize from a statue? Why is vanille so artifiial?* *Why does Barthandelus have fun toying with people's lives?* *And why isn't there much of a backstory for Sazh and his wife?* There are so many unanswered questions in the story of Final Fantasy XIII that you HAVE to play for the action of it. It is bad for story I'll admit that. But there are good things about it like the Paradigm and the Battles that make up for it I think... Call me shallow...
 
I'm not sure, FFXIII as a stand alone game was quite fun and intriguing. I am not a fan of FFXIII-2, and even less a fan of Lightning Returns, but the original game was fun and very pretty to look at. I found almost all the characters intriguing, excluding Vanille (she was shitty). The dialog was funny at times but also serious. I just resent this saga because it was eventually ruined by Lightning Returns, which was a very big bummer for me and my younger brother. I guess Square just got lazy or something? :/
 
Back
Top