February 12, 2012, 6:41 AM
Fact: Insanity never coincides with logic or obvious conclusions. That's why it's insane. Sephiroth could easily have found the knowledge of the Ancients in the Lifestream -- essentially, their living memories of what Jenova was before it killed them -- but it'd be a simple matter for him to deny what he saw, or blame the humans for being weak, or not understanding what it was they saw. Either way, we know that he thinks he's still the 'rightful heir' to the planet, since he has a habit of chanting that throughout the game.
I really don't think Sephiroth after falling into the Lifestream thought him and Jenova were Ancients at all. In fact, him thinking that would be really dumb, even if he'd flipped his shit. Now if he'd be in the Lifestream for that long and gathered all that knowledge, then there's no way he'd still be deluded enough to make the same incorrect assumption that Shinra did by thinking him and Jenova were Ancients.
And even if he doesn't believe it any more, then it still gives him a good enough excuse to continue his diabolical scheme. I doubt he cares, so long as he gets revenge on those he hates.
The part that you're referring to is that Sephiroth was essentially saying, he's exceeded the Ancients in power and ambition. They would never go so far as to absorb all the energy in the Lifestream unto one person -- he can. He sees himself as a 'man of the future' type figure to the Ancients, one that isn't bound by tradition or philosophy or anything like that (including empathy or humanity, which he would consider a weakness). He's going to become the next step in evolution -- a god.
In fact, I can't remember where, but I seem to recall Sephiroth saying something to the effect of him being beyond the Ancients at some point in the game. Plus, I think it's safe to assume there is some truth in what Sephiroth claimed to be Jenova's goal, since he's the person most like her what with shared DNA and bodies and whatnot.
If the Cetra were god-like, with their innate magical capabilities, then Sephiroth was going to take it to a whole new level.
Also, don't be fooled by Sephiroth. He snowed the characters pretty good, but it shouldn't happen to the players so easily. Genetic descent does NOT also mean genetic memory. I mean, just look at what he claims is his 'goal':
1. Destroy all humans.
2. Destroy the planet.
3. Create a haven on another planet.
The only one to benefit from all this, is Sephiroth. I can even draw the lines for you.
1. He thinks that all humans are responsible for the downfall of his 'race' (him and Jenova) because he read the mistaken ShinRa files that also mistook Jenova as being an Ancient. These same humans are the ones responsible for making his life a living hell and using him as a tool. He's pissed. He wants revenge. Simple.
2. The humans that "took" the planet from him and his "mother" will also lose what they have gained. He's going to destroy the planet out of spite, and to accomplish his third goal which is....
3. Create a heaven for himself, the so called Promised Land. He's going to destroy the humans and the planet they corrupted and he's going to establish a heaven somewhere else entirely, just for himself. ALL this, powered by his hatred and insanity toward the human race.
I mean, it's just so blindingly clear. Cause, meet effect. I see no way Jenova could possibly have the exact same goal as him, 2,000 years ago. His motives are just too specific to his personal situation to just coincidentally coincide with Jenova's goals. And remember, Jenova is an alien, with unfathomable powers and motives. We couldn't hope to understand how its mind worked.
I doubt a madman would be better off.
Um..... you're facts are a little jumbled.
I mean, there are at least some facts to back up his wild claim about Jenova travelling the cosmos killing planets since there's evidence that it's exactly what she was trying to do with Gaia. It isn't a stretch to assume the asteroid she collided with the planet was a chunk of another one that she'd destroyed and it would make sense with her wanting to use the Earth as a vessel to travel the cosmos and do it all over again.
All Sephiroth said is that Jenova would use the planet as a vessel. Okay.
So what did Jenova come to the planet on in the first place? Lets say an big-ass asteroid, which is still a vessel. I mean, I understand why someone would want to upgrade from a smartcar to a Hummer, but even so, all that matters is if the vehicle gets you from point A to point B. Why bother with the sidetrip? It just -- logically -- doesn't make sense that Jenova was doing the equivalent of grand theft auto.
I mean, we're talking about an ancient creature that's zooming around in space! Why in the HELL would you want another planet to spin your wheels on? Technically, a planet would be the worst vessel ever. It's slow. It has gravity. It gets pulled to other objects easily. And, of course, they tend to harbor life, which is exactly what killed Jenova in the first place.
Honestly? If I were an ancient, shape-shifting alien, I'd just stick with the car I know.
Okay, several mistakes in your quote here.
Also, I disagree with your claim about Jenova being bad at killing planets. IMO she did a damn good job considering she caused the extinction of an entire civilization in a very very short time. And as testament to how good she was at it, this was a bad ass magic wielding race of planet talkers no less! Plus, they didn't really, "defeat" her per se, more like put a pause on the battle. So if it were another race with lesser abilities like say, the humans, I think Jenova would have easily destroyed the entirety of Gaia at that time. Pretty much she had to "fail," otherwise there would be no story. :p
1. The reason I say it was bad at destroying planets is because I don't believe that was Jenova's intent. I think Jenova had something on a much bigger scale planned. A being like Jenova could destroy a planet easily. One, two, three asteroids at most. Sling those suckers like pool balls at a planet -- boom, it's dead. Easy as pie.
So that begs the question -- why didn't Jenova just do that if its goal was to simply kill the planet? Why would it ever put itself in harms way by trying to kill the sentient beings on the planet when it could easily wipe them out from orbit? Even if the Cetra were magically skilled enough to divert one asteroid, that wouldn't be a problem -- Jenova could sling the whole asteroid belt at the planet until the Cetra slip and one gets through. That's all it would take.
So no. The whole "Jenvoa's goal was to kill the planet" just doesn't fly with me. There's way too many holes.
Think of it like this. You are fighting a war. You find your enemies home base, their last bastion of defense. What do you do? Do you nuke it from orbit (just to be sure) or do you throw thousands of soldiers at it trying to take it?
Obviously, you'd just nuke it and go home. Smart. Fast. Very little mess to clean up.
And Jenvoa is obviously a very old creature. If it does indeed have a history of destroying planets, why doesn't it just play a game of Armageddon and move on? It's smarter than that. It should know better than to touchdown on the planet itself and fight a one-on-millions war with the indigenous guardians.
In short, I think Sephiroth is underestimating Jenova's plans. Maybe Jenova did plan to 'absorb' the Lifestream by using the black materia -- but to what end? Maybe that's just how that alien species feeds, by devouring entire souls of planets in one go. The point being, we can never know. Sephiroth is just conjecturing at this point. He may have the means Jenova was going to use correct, but not necessarily the ends.
2. Correction: Jenova almost wiped out a race of powerful magic users. In the end, they killed the alien invader.
3. Correction 2: The Cetra did defeat Jenova. I know this for many reasons as explained in the main post. But long story short, it just logically makes sense that Jenova's mind is totally dead. Gone. Condemned to oblivion. What the Cetra didn't count on was that the body would still be a threat. They couldn't foresee that someone could spiritually waltz into the empty vessel and reanimate it.
I see what you mean, and you have a very good point, but there are 2 huge things that put it into some doubt.
Pretty much, I think Jenova and Sephiroth are one and the same by the time of AC since his goal is so much like her original intent. That doesn't mean all that other stuff you said about him wanting revenge is untrue, but I can't disregard something he said and then chalk it up as him being crazy when there's things to back up his claims.
First off, there are some pretty big holes in Sephiroth's claims that -- when examined closely -- just make his reasons seem a bit dubious.
Second, for Jenova to control Sephiroth in any way, even to subtly implant its own goals into his head, would mean that Jenova is still alive in some way.
And that just makes a world of NO SENSE. It would ruin the logic and continuity of everything in the game.
For example, if Jenova was alive from the beginning, why didn't it just get up and finish the planet off while the planet was still healing? Why not initiate Reunion right away? More to the point, why have your mind-puppet cut off your own head?
And how about the Remnants, where do they fit in? Why focus on killing ONE human (Cloud) when you can just take him out with the rest of the race and the planet in one go? To a being like Jenova, a human is like a gnat. Hardly worth the attention.
At least with Sephiroth operating on his own goals and as an individual, everything makes sense. But to claim that Jenova was alive and making Sephiroth its mind-puppet, then everything gets thrown awry. Nothing would make sense any more. And honestly, the best evidence suggesting Jenova was always dead after the Cetra did it in, is the fact that it just didn't simply shuck Sephiroth's appearance and went on a full-out rampage, destroying everything and spreading the virus like it did the first time. With no more Cetra, it would be pie to wipe out humanity. It has nothing to fear.... so why would it stay incognito?
See? I just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
So, logically (and keep in mind that I'm merely operating on what I can logically discern here from the evidence given in the games) I can only assume that Sephiroth knows little to nothing about Jenova's true goals and is only operating on his own motivations while using Jenova's ambiguous intentions as a way to make himself the righteous hero.
Because when you think about it, does evil ever really think it's being evil? Sephiroth thinks it is his inherited right to take over the planet, that the planet is his by blood. Sephiroth sees himself as the redeemer, the sole sentinel for a planet that has been forsaken by the 'parasite humans'. To him, he's the good guy! He's the savior! He's doing the right thing. Jenova just provided a convenient excuse to grant him the hero's mantle.
Granted, he didn't see Jenova as a convenient excuse -- it isn't like he learned about it and said to himself, "Oh hey, here's a convenient excuse to make myself look righteous." No. Don't get me wrong -- he actually believes it. He thinks it's 100% true.
Hope this clears things up.
February 17, 2012, 3:50 AM
I'm not sure if this was already cleared up, but what is the deal with the Black Materia and the white materia?
February 17, 2012, 9:57 PM
Not too sure what you're asking. Can you be more specific? However, I will direct you to this page . My second post may answer your question.
Here's what I said there but you can use the link if you want to see it in context.
Does that cover what you were asking?
Okay, so if Aerith needed to die in order to tell the Planet to summon Holy, what was the purpose of the White Materia orb?
This is a good question, but requires a little dip into the mechanics of magic in this game.
Materia is condensed mako, right? Mako is just the essence of the Lifestream, which we know is kind of like a "soul water" (if you'll excuse that horrible analogy) that also contains the memories and experiences of every living thing on the Planet.
Materia is full of the knowledge of the Ancients -- this packaged, travel-size form of knowledge (the materia) is what allows a person to use magic. The person itself, lets say Cloud, doesn't know all that knowledge. But the information in the materia itself still allows him to manipulate energies within the materia and focus them into a desired effect -- which is the spell. Just because he can use it, doesn't mean he understands it. For him, it's a thing of willpower, willing something to happen -- but the mechanism that makes that will turn into reality is very complicated.
Think of it as a person shooting a gun. The operation is simple -- you simply pull the trigger. But beyond that, that person has absolutely no idea how the gun works. All they know is this: do action A to get result B.
Technically, the spell and the knowledge to learn without the materia would take years and years of study to perform. But since all that knowledge is right there in the materia, a person can simply pick it up and cast the spell without having done a second of study. This also reasonably explains why the Cetra were such a formidable people -- in addition to being telepathic, they were also very advanced in magic, and the workings of the world (physics and metaphysics). They would naturally be the most formidable foe to Jenova and the default guardians of the planet. In the time frame when the player enters the game, however, no one knows how to cast magic without materia -- but it's strongly implied in the game that the Cetra could cast magic without the use of materia whatsoever, through the cumulative knowledge and wisdom of their all their generations.
But I digress.
Aerith needed the White Materia to cast this spell -- she does not know herself how to do it without that materia. The White Materia likely contains the knowledge of one person among the Cetra thousands of years ago, that knew how to summon up that desired spell. Aerith, however, does not. This spell is so immense and so powerful, that a sacrifice of sorts is required to fully trigger it. Why does it require a sacrifice? I have no idea. I couldn't tell you.
But Aerith needed the WM for the same reason that Sephiroth needed the BM -- because neither of them actually possessed and understood the mechanism for making such powerful magic happen. They needed to use the very rare knowledge left by the Ancients in only one materia (one WM, one BM) in order to cast their respective spells.
February 17, 2012, 11:36 PM
oh ok, so the materia was made by the ancients?
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
February 18, 2012, 6:29 AM
....In a sense. The materia is literally the packaged form of the knowledge of the Ancients. The same knowledge that allows for summoning fire out of thin air, or creating defensive barriers around yourself out of pure energy. It was made by the Ancients, but it wasn't like they manufactured them in a factory. It's the actual memories and know-how the Ancients had when alive, and got caught in crystallized materia in places like the mako fountain in the Nibel mountains. When that crystallized mako forms an orb, you suddenly have materia.
Originally Posted by Grimer
That's why Cloud and Co. went out to save the Huge Materia -- those materia were literally the compendiums of all the knowledge of the Ancients, trapped inside the crystal, literal gems of knowledge. The bigger the materia, the more it can store. That's why little materia orbs are only good for one spell -- they aren't big enough to carry more. (Granted, some allow multiple effects, like the seal or esuna materias, but those are really just variations of the same thing, just applied in a different way.)
Was that more what you were looking for?
March 26, 2012, 10:46 PM
yes, it was. I think that about wraps it up for things I was confused on. once again, thanks fr the summary and clearing the confusing plot for all of us.
Originally Posted by Dragon Mage
July 30, 2012, 11:00 PM
I joined this forum today because I was thinking about how I love FF and have never actually searched for a forum dedicated to it.
I repped you for the original post.
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to write out the full storyline. You structured it very well and were very articulate and concise in your descriptions.
FF7 is the first FF I've played, and it has to be my favourite so far. I've gone back to play it a few times but did not pick up on the storyline very well.
That's why this thread was brilliant for me! I'm amazed by the story and I feel like playing it again, now that I understand the plot.
Thanks again, Dragon Mage, for your detailed plot explanation!
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Likes
January 17, 2013, 6:17 PM
Amazing theory that you have Dragon Mage. It really cleared up alot of questions I had about the game. I'm sold on the whole "shape-shifting" aspect of Jenova that I never really noticed before. Although, I have trouble believing in one thing: That Cloud would willingly give over the BM or beat up Aerith. I read this quote on wikipedia: " However, the alien Jenova cells in Cloud's body allowed Sephiroth to modulate his behavior," which leads me to believe that Cloud was in fact being controlled by Sephiroth. Any thoughts?
January 20, 2013, 8:47 PM
Yay! I'm glad it cleared up a lot of stuff for you!
Originally Posted by roshidon
If you read the section about Cloud and the Lifestream in my post, I cover this whole part about Cloud not being controlled in great detail, but just know that the FF wiki and wikipedia in general are very unreliable as anyone with a half-baked theory can add it there.
However, I went into this whole analysis just looking at the facts, and the facts tell me that NO WHERE is it ever said that Sephiroth can directly control Cloud through the J-cells. Sephiroth can screw with his mind, and since Cloud is especially vulnerable with a shattered psyche, he can make Cloud do some pretty crazy things, but can't actually control him.
Thing of what Sephiroth does as a suggestion, of the psychic/magic/Dungeons and Dragons variety. You can make someone REALLY REALLY REALLY want to do something, but you can't actually MAKE them. Just so here as well. Sephiroth CAN modulate Cloud's behavior but NOT because he's using the J-cells. He can do it just by planting doubt in Cloud's mind.
As for handing over the BM, refer back to what I said about Sephiroth screwing with Cloud's head and Cloud not knowing which way was up. Cloud thought he wasn't a person; that he was a failed test tube experiment with no parents and no friends, and everything he thought he knew were just implanted memories. But because of Tifa, we know this isn't true. Cloud, however, didn't know that. Let's approach these two incidents separately.
Handing over the BM. This happened when Cloud's sense of identity was as it's most fractured and totally screwed up. Sephiroth made him believe that he wasn't even human, that he was just a puppet! Remember what I said about Cloud living a dream in the OP? Well, Sephiroth knows this -- Cloud is just an actor, improving what he thinks he should be doing. All Sephiroth had to do was change the script and Cloud, not knowing any better about his identity or past, followed it unhesitatingly. Later in the game, Cloud even admits that it was his own weakness that led to the situation with Meteor. Because he wasn't strong enough, mentally and emotionally, Sephiroth manipulated him into do what he wanted. So while I agree, Cloud would never hand over the BM willingly, at the time he didn't think he even HAD free will. The whole game and Sephiroth's manipulation built up to that moment, and afterward we see that Cloud has complete mental break. Poor guy.
Beating up Aerith. Again, all of the things i mentioned above about the BM incident would apply here, but also factor in frustration and blind rage, and you've got him beating up Aerith. It's very likely that Sephiroth placed the suggestion of getting rid of the Ancient in Cloud and Cloud was acting on impulses that weren't truly his own, just implanted ideas. But either way, Sephiroth manipulated him masterfully, but his only real success in screwing Cloud over was getting Cloud to hand him the BM.
Post Thanks / Like - 0 Thanks, 1 Likes
January 24, 2013, 7:22 AM
I see what your saying and hey that could be what happened. I guess we'll never know for sure.
Post Thanks / Like - 1 Thanks, 0 Likes