Zimbabwe - Page 9

July 24, 2008, 11:52 AM

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Aren't we good at taking stuff out of context?
I never advocated that, perhaps there is something else you'd like to accuse me of?
I was simply pointing out that Decado's arguement said that we could not interfere just because our morals are different. I was pointing out that they were similar and if we are going to judge on morals then we should judge on the morals of the majority, not the minority.

No no no! Sorry, I just wasn't sure what you meant, as if you were advocating an absolute or not. Thus the question mark at the end.

July 24, 2008, 10:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Placebo

Aren't we good at taking stuff out of context?
I never advocated that, perhaps there is something else you'd like to accuse me of?
I was simply pointing out that Decado's arguement said that we could not interfere just because our morals are different. I was pointing out that they were similar and if we are going to judge on morals then we should judge on the morals of the majority, not the minority.

Hey Placebo,

I just want to expand here on what you said, because I agree with you.

Now what Decado said wasn't 100% wrong, but it definately isn't 100% correct either. I honestly believe Decados comment about not judging others applies to some things like Religion. For example you shouldn't force people to follow a certain Religion, who are we to tell otheres what they should think, see that makes sense! But when you apply it to a moral evil all of a sudden we have problems. I don't think stealing for example is ok, if I caught somebody stealing from me I'd catch him/her and call the cops, even stealing to survive is wrong because your selfishly stealing from somebody else for your own survival, although you could argue "what if a poor guy steals from a rich guy".

Now Decado if your reading this, I'm merely replying to your statement, I am fully aware you made no mention of stealing being ok, but instead said if it was legal in a certain place that we have no right intervening to enforce our morals on them, and thats fine, I agree.

Now, I do believe we should help those unfortunate people in Zimbabwe. The problem is I dont know specifically what we should do. If we assassinate Mugabe, will his followers take over or cower? Something to consider =). And I'm with Placebo were not persecuting were saving from persecution.

- Kuja

July 25, 2008, 1:12 AM

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Now, I do believe we should help those unfortunate people in Zimbabwe. The problem is I dont know specifically what we should do. If we assassinate Mugabe, will his followers take over or cower? Something to consider =). And I'm with Placebo were not persecuting were saving from persecution.

Well, when Zimbabwe was Rhodesia it was the one of the most prosperous and successful countries in Africa, if not the most, it was even considered the "Breadbasket of Africa". But what went wrong?

Well, up until 1965 Rhodesia was a British colony, but was declared independent by Prime Minister Ian Smith and although unrecognized by the rest of the world continued to be prosperous and successful up until the late 70s when it was considered futile to continue fighting against the black nationalist forces (which outnumbered whites 22:1) and in 1979 Mugabe and his cronies offered peace to the Rhodesian whites, claiming that in the new "Zimbabwe" whites could remain to live peacefully. However, not long after Mugabe became President of the new republic, armed goons were sent to beat white farmers and throw them from their farms, handing them over to blacks. Thousands of other whites were thrown from their homes as well and had to understandably leave their country out of fear.

Not long after, Zimbabwe started to suffer economic inflation, unemployment, and rising crime, which has to this day, never stopped rising. For example, now an average loaf of bread costs around 1,000,000,000 Zimbabwean dollars.

And even today, Ian Smith is considered a hero by many people, even the leader of the Zimbabwean opposition party (who recently pulled out from the election out of fear for his and his families life) who is a black man said-

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"If Smith was a black man, I would say that he was the best Prime Minister that Zimbabwe ever had." - Morgan Tsvangirai, Leader of the Movement for Democratic Change

So go figure, I guess. The way I see it is this- Stuff them, stop sending aid to Africa and just leave them to their own devices to commit more primitive tribal genocides, let them continue to shag like rabbits, even though they can't care for their offspring and it spreads AIDS like theres no tomorrow, just let them do whatever they want. They wanted black majority rule, fine they have it now. We shouldn't help them, they brought this on themselves.

July 25, 2008, 3:46 AM

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Originally Posted by δ Kuja Ω

Now what Decado said wasn't 100% wrong, but it definately isn't 100% correct either. I honestly believe Decados comment about not judging others applies to some things like Religion. For example you shouldn't force people to follow a certain Religion, who are we to tell otheres what they should think, see that makes sense! But when you apply it to a moral evil all of a sudden we have problems. I don't think stealing for example is ok, if I caught somebody stealing from me I'd catch him/her and call the cops, even stealing to survive is wrong because your selfishly stealing from somebody else for your own survival, although you could argue "what if a poor guy steals from a rich guy".

I'll continue on with your example, Mugabe is the religion forcing other people to follow his religion, but instead of just forcing people to convert he is mudering and torturing people who could oppose him. We are telling Mugabe what they can and can't do. We are telling him he can't murder people and expect to get away with it. We aren't forcing our morals on him, but freeing people who can't help themselves.
Say there is a man with broken legs, outside of a hospital, he can't get up the steps. We would help him right? Zimbabweans are the people with broken legs we can help them get better.

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Now, I do believe we should help those unfortunate people in Zimbabwe. The problem is I dont know specifically what we should do. If we assassinate Mugabe, will his followers take over or cower? Something to consider

Like Katsky said, Zimbabwe was rich and prosperous once. S/he atributes the decline in Zimbabwe to Zimbabweans. I'd be more inclined to atribute it to Mugabe. His civil war against ZAPU and fighting in the Congo has ruined Zimbabwe's economy.
I'd make Tsvangirai the nominal leader. I'd make it a mandate to be looked after by the UN, that way Zimbabwe would have the best chance to 'get better'.
Once the economy in Zimbabwe is satisfactory and Mugabe is gone, democratic elections can be held and it can would no longer be a mandate.

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No no no! Sorry, I just wasn't sure what you meant, as if you were advocating an absolute or not. Thus the question mark at the end

Sorry I read it as an accusation, rather than a question

July 25, 2008, 4:35 AM

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Zimbabwe to Zimbabweans. I'd be more inclined to atribute it to Mugabe. His civil war against ZAPU and fighting in the Congo has ruined Zimbabwe's economy.

Hmm, I just find it hard to believe that a nation once so prosperous has been driven into hell so badly, even failed socialist leaders who nationalized almost everything (Allende comes to mind) and shagged their countries in the anus never drove them to be like this, you'd have to be a complete retard to fuck up the economy of a country with such vast natural resources and agricultural capabilities.

And nevertheless, this has happened to every other former European African colony, even South American and East Asian former colonies are more successful than anything in Africa.

July 25, 2008, 4:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Katsky

Hmm, I just find it hard to believe that a nation once so prosperous has been driven into hell so badly, even failed socialist leaders who nationalized almost everything (Allende comes to mind) and shagged their countries in the anus never drove them to be like this, you'd have to be a complete retard to fuck up the economy of a country with such vast natural resources and agricultural capabilities.

And nevertheless, this has happened to every other former European African colony, even South American and East Asian former colonies are more successful than anything in Africa.

Allende just needed more money, it wasn't his fault that the American corporations took all the money from the copper mines. It was always going to be slow progress, Allende wasn't all to clever either, appointing Pinochet as the Head of the army

It's probably because when we(white people) were in those African countries we treated the blacks like shit. Which meant when they got power they wouldn't trust us enough to let us help them.
Democracy is a very new in African countries, you'd expect that there would be problems.
It is kind of a patronising approach to take, but they need us to help them out. To educate them properly, universities etc.
Just look at South Africa, the real man in power, Zuma is a rapist and his political song during the nominations was "pass me my machine gun".

July 25, 2008, 6:01 AM

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Allende just needed more money, it wasn't his fault that the American corporations took all the money from the copper mines. It was always going to be slow progress, Allende wasn't all to clever either, appointing Pinochet as the Head of the army

Haha, yes. That Pinochet, oh him, with his rampant murder of political opponents.

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It's probably because when we(white people) were in those African countries we treated the blacks like shit.

European powers treated all their colonial subjects like shit, not just Africans.

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Which meant when they got power they wouldn't trust us enough to let us help them.

What do you mean by "help" though? We send barrage them with food and supply aid constantly. Do you mean UN peacekeeping forces and such?

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Democracy is a very new in African countries, you'd expect that there would be problems.

Democracy has never worked and it is inevitable that it leads to genocides, dictatorships, etc...

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It is kind of a patronising approach to take, but they need us to help them out. To educate them properly, universities etc.

I agree, but it is just far too much work to do. Africa will never ever be at the standard of the west, however by some impossible circumstance the African people did come to such living standards, they'd be the only ones in the world who could live like that, just like if China or India siphoned the worlds economy and into their countries (which they are doing now), you could say goodbye to your Swedish furniture and café lattes.

The only real hope is population control, introduced by the United Nations on a world scale, different quotas for different areas, first world nations already suffer from declining birth rates so it is really 3rd world nations that need to be forced to stop producing countless offspring.

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Just look at South Africa, the real man in power, Zuma is a rapist and his political song during the nominations was "pass me my machine gun".

Yeah, South Africa really went downhill after Mandela sadly.

July 25, 2008, 11:27 PM

I agree with alot of what's been said now. Zimbabwe does need our help. It's not about having different morals; it's because we have a system of laws, and morals, that we should act. Much of Africa is held back because of the vicious circle of war, tribalism, and instability. The west is partly to blame...for the massive debt and post-colonial economic exploitation, and that needs to stop too. If Africa had better leadership and a greater degree of stability, most things would fall into place. At the moment there is little space for progress. The developed world can do something other than just sit back and only intervene when economic interests are at stake.